One I am most intersted in is balance and how ANet will do this.
Right now each class does something better then the other classes. Guardian can mitigate damage well and so does the Necro with their 9 lives. So I wonder how ANet will balance that when it comes to PvP. Why? Because guilds have already played with people specing to their strengths. My Guardian needs alot less spec resorces to be an awesome healer so a little goes a long way, where a Elelmentlist would need to spend a lot of traits to do the job as well as a guardian. So if everyone is speced to their strengths, this gives a raid in WvW a huge edge. ANet can go 2 ways, 1. remove that edge and everyone can do each role equal. 2. leave it as is and that will force people to follow suit to compete. WoW had the same problem with Add Ons. Leave them in the game and make content harder to level the playing field, by so doing forcing everyone to use them top end raiding. Or remove them and make it even for all. Blizzard went with leaving them in and forcing everyone to use them. What direction will ANet go?
Well, in regards to balance, it's fairly simple. Provide builds (note: not professions) with heavy burst to overcome the heavy mitigation of a G or stupidly-high health pool of a necro (BTW, they nerfed that already...maybe not a problem anymore?).
There are many others solutions. Much of a G's mitigation and heals comes from A) hitting people, standing in symbols, C) using Virtues. Effective crowd control and knocking the G out of his pretty circles can help. Stability will be a problem, but there's ways to manage that too. Isolation is also a viable tactic. Keep the G away from his team mates, murder them, then focus on the G.
Necros...Isolation is the way to go here. Necro damage in DS isn't that high. The real hassle is that they are nearly impossible to kill so long as they are constantly getting heals and people are dying around them. Isolate them from others and don't let your people die. DS runs out quicker, and the Necro is in trouble again. Condition management is also important, which is why every player should carry at least one skill into PvP to deal with conditions.
Do not start on addons here please, already arguing that enough in another thread I get your point though...it's my hope that "balanced" specs (generalist) will bring enough of all three flavors to the table to offset the obvious benefits of specialization. As long as they can do that, Anet doens't have to build the game around either methodology.
So, out of curiosity, what defines a Soft Trinity min your opinion? It seems like a term alot of people are using in different ways, all thinking they mean the same thing.
So if everyone is speced to their strengths, this gives a raid in WvW a huge edge. ANet can go 2 ways, 1. remove that edge and everyone can do each role equal. 2. leave it as is and that will force people to follow suit to compete. WoW had the same problem with Add Ons. Leave them in the game and make content harder to level the playing field, by so doing forcing everyone to use them top end raiding. Or remove them and make it even for all. Blizzard went with leaving them in and forcing everyone to use them. What direction will ANet go?
That is actually a very valid point (finally)
jk jk
If something is found to have an edge, even a small edge, it will become "required" for anyone "serious" about their game play.
I don't think it's going to be as big of a problem in GW2 as it is/was with WoW because the player skill in GW2 is so much more of a factor than in WoW.
Best tuned spec in the world in GW2 means nothing if you don't know when to use skills or dodge or don't know positioning etc. etc.
Where as in WoW, best gear best spec you can literally faceroll through so much of the game it isn't even funny.
For example, unless you completely over-gear an instance in WoW you NEED a dedicated Tank and Healer.
However in GW2, you can't really over-gear things as much due to scaling and you don't NEED a dedicated Tank and Healer to "win" if your coordination and skill are good enough.
Gear balance aside, the skill sets for each class are designed that each class is better at something. 3% boost here, 5% boost there. Guardian healing, Elementlist speced AoE, Ranger speced for ST and you do that accross 30-40 people and that 3-5% boost starts to add up. Do you think ANet will leave it that way? Or even the playing field? If they leave it as is, just like any MMO guilds will be looking for people to fill x,y,z roles with their classes. Not a fixed role where you only do tanking but speced to your clases strengths.
Originally posted by BadSpock That is actually a very valid point (finally)
jk jk
If something is found to have an edge, even a small edge, it will become "required" for anyone "serious" about their game play.
I don't think it's going to be as big of a problem in GW2 as it is/was with WoW because the player skill in GW2 is so much more of a factor than in WoW.
Best tuned spec in the world in GW2 means nothing if you don't know when to use skills or dodge or don't know positioning etc. etc.
Where as in WoW, best gear best spec you can literally faceroll through so much of the game it isn't even funny.
For example, unless you completely over-gear an instance in WoW you NEED a dedicated Tank and Healer.
However in GW2, you can't really over-gear things as much due to scaling and you don't NEED a dedicated Tank and Healer to "win" if your coordination and skill are good enough.
Actually player skill mattering more in GW2 is the exact opposite of what you say.
In WoW bad players can seen as good if they have really good gear, they obviously wont be doing as well as they should but they do well enough.
However, in GW2 since player skill matters so much those same bad players will not be able to do as well because they dont have stats carrying them.
So, if a group of good players have an advantageous set up then they will do even better. So, that means other less skilled players will need to have an equally as advantageous set up or more advantageous set up to increase their chances of defeating the good players.
And thus Nanfoodle's valid point would be realized.
Note - thisis in 2008, and the mages aren't level 80, they are appropriate level for the content - and when they do get hit they get hit for almost half their life. However, with good use of CC and heavy DPS, they are able to complete the instance.
I'd consider this more "Breaking the Trinity" then the GW2 Video in this thread... as these mages didn't have a "downed" mechanic where they could basically run around battle ressing one another.
Note - thisis in 2008, and the mages aren't level 80, they are appropriate level for the content - and when they do get hit they get hit for almost half their life. However, with good use of CC and heavy DPS, they are able to complete the instance.
I'd consider this more "Breaking the Trinity" then the GW2 Video in this thread... as these mages didn't have a "downed" mechanic where they could basically run around battle ressing one another.
Once again, there is a vast realm of difference between being POSSIBLE, and being SUPPORTED by the games mechanics begging to make your aquaintance.
The trinity is the natural progression of the genre, you won't see it broken often in Gw2 because its just simply better overall to utilize those given roles. Guild Wars 2 is enough of a switch from standard mechanics that its fresh, but the community will ultimately move to typical trinity builds for PvE, PvP, and WvW.
Note - thisis in 2008, and the mages aren't level 80, they are appropriate level for the content - and when they do get hit they get hit for almost half their life. However, with good use of CC and heavy DPS, they are able to complete the instance.
I'd consider this more "Breaking the Trinity" then the GW2 Video in this thread... as these mages didn't have a "downed" mechanic where they could basically run around battle ressing one another.
One of my fav saying is "Even a broken clock is right twice a day" Thats what that vid is. Now if you showed me the same 5 mages doing every dungeon in WoW, now I would be intersted. GW2 is designed that everyone in the team can handle every role thats needed. No need for burst healing, or a hard core tank.
I still don't see how the old mindset of "Tank, Healer, Dps, Control", which some people have mislabeled as "Trinity" is dead. The dynamic of "tanking" has simply changed from standing there soaking up all the damage while someone heals you to being able to hold aggro, dodge, get hit, etc instead of letting squishies take the hit.
It isn't dead, and the simple fact that GW2 clearly defines the differences between the different paths (dps, hp, def, etc) proves that. What they're trying to get away from are elitist setups such as <Main Tank>, <DPS>, <Control>, <Healer>, etc so that people have more freedom. The idea that you need a face-hugger to keep aggro off squishies is still there.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I still don't see how the old mindset of "Tank, Healer, Dps, Control", which some people have mislabeled as "Trinity" is dead. The dynamic of "tanking" has simply changed from standing there soaking up all the damage while someone heals you to being able to hold aggro, dodge, get hit, etc instead of letting squishies take the hit.
It isn't dead, and the simple fact that GW2 clearly defines the differences between the different paths (dps, hp, def, etc) proves that. What they're trying to get away from are elitist setups such as , , , , etc so that people have more freedom. The idea that you need a face-hugger to keep aggro off squishies is still there.
Are you sure you actually understand what the "Holy Trinity" actually is. (hint: you can't have a trinity centered around 4 roles)
I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.
Is it really a defined role though if everyone is doing all 3 things? No single person can sit there and tank everything. No single person can sit there spamming heals to keep that tank alive.
They didnt say they were getting rid of healing. They said they were getting rid of dedicated healers and tanks. There is a difference.
As I have told you before I dont agree. Trinity = damage mitigation, healing and DPS. All 3 roles are in GW2. IF the trinity was dead you would need to remove at least one of the three roles from the game. All three roles are very much alive in GW2 its just played different. Trinity is very much alive and well in GW2, its just done in a way you dont need to LFG. Its well done and smart and I enjoy it but no MMO have given us the death to the trinity yet.
Actually, they aren't there in GW2. Why? Because no class is dedicated to healing or damage mitigation.
Show me the dedicated healer in GW2. I'd love to see it.
He doesn't understand what the term "Trinity" means. He thinks it means that the game mechanics feature healing, damage and armor / mitigation. He doesn't know that Trinity actually refers to dedicated player roles.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I still don't see how the old mindset of "Tank, Healer, Dps, Control", which some people have mislabeled as "Trinity" is dead. The dynamic of "tanking" has simply changed from standing there soaking up all the damage while someone heals you to being able to hold aggro, dodge, get hit, etc instead of letting squishies take the hit.
It isn't dead, and the simple fact that GW2 clearly defines the differences between the different paths (dps, hp, def, etc) proves that. What they're trying to get away from are elitist setups such as , , , , etc so that people have more freedom. The idea that you need a face-hugger to keep aggro off squishies is still there.
Are you sure you actually understand what the "Holy Trinity" actually is. (hint: you can't have a trinity centered around 4 roles)
The "Holy Trinity" is the farce idea that a "Perfect" group for raids/group encounters is Tank/Healer/Dps when in fact it has NEVER been simply those three for a "perfect" group. That's why I don't believe that the Trinity EVER existed, and that it was more a mindset of players wanting to pick specific roles for themselves that evolved into game design along the way.
This is why i centered around more than 4 roles, as the 4 I listed were merely examples. There's like more than 5 actually. "Off-Tank" being one of them, but that's more a sub-role than a primary.
Regardless, the mentality behind "Tanking", "Healing", "Support", "Control", etc etc has NOT gone awhile like some seem to think in GW2. It has simply evolved into a different playstyle to achieve the same roles.
The concentration here is on "Roles" and not necesarrily the requirement of gameplay.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
As I have told you before I dont agree. Trinity = damage mitigation, healing and DPS. All 3 roles are in GW2. IF the trinity was dead you would need to remove at least one of the three roles from the game. All three roles are very much alive in GW2 its just played different. Trinity is very much alive and well in GW2, its just done in a way you dont need to LFG. Its well done and smart and I enjoy it but no MMO have given us the death to the trinity yet.
Actually, they aren't there in GW2. Why? Because no class is dedicated to healing or damage mitigation.
Show me the dedicated healer in GW2. I'd love to see it.
He doesn't understand what the term "Trinity" means. He thinks it means that the game mechanics feature healing, damage and armor / mitigation. He doesn't know that Trinity actually refers to dedicated player roles.
You heard of the Guardian? Go look @ the specific skills of the Guardian & then look at the "Staff" weapon for Guardians. They are about as much of a healer as a Cleric is in EQ2. They're so HEAVY on support compared to other classes it's almost laughable.
I played a Staff Healer Guardian in GW2 for a couple hours in PvP and I was able to easily keep myself and two others players up for more than half a match vs 5 enemy players constantly from all of my support/healing.
There isn't a Class specific to healing, but if there was one to point to it'd be Guardian. Now, does their class specifically say "Healer"? No, but that doesn't mean the mindset behind the developers for that class isn't something similar.
Also, the idea that Classes still exist in a "Role-less" game is laughable. You don't see the irony that they're trying to get away from the mindset of having a specific "Role" but left classes in the game?
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
"If you have to drastically change the commonly accepted definition of "trinity" and/or spend 20 pages clarify the exact syntax of what YOUR definition of "trinity" is and how it applies.....
I still don't see how the old mindset of "Tank, Healer, Dps, Control", which some people have mislabeled as "Trinity" is dead. The dynamic of "tanking" has simply changed from standing there soaking up all the damage while someone heals you to being able to hold aggro, dodge, get hit, etc instead of letting squishies take the hit.
It isn't dead, and the simple fact that GW2 clearly defines the differences between the different paths (dps, hp, def, etc) proves that. What they're trying to get away from are elitist setups such as , , , , etc so that people have more freedom. The idea that you need a face-hugger to keep aggro off squishies is still there.
Are you sure you actually understand what the "Holy Trinity" actually is. (hint: you can't have a trinity centered around 4 roles)
The "Holy Trinity" is the farce idea that a "Perfect" group for raids/group encounters is Tank/Healer/Dps when in fact it has NEVER been simply those three for a "perfect" group. That's why I don't believe that the Trinity EVER existed, and that it was more a mindset of players wanting to pick specific roles for themselves that evolved into game design along the way.
This is why i centered around more than 4 roles, as the 4 I listed were merely examples. There's like more than 5 actually. "Off-Tank" being one of them, but that's more a sub-role than a primary.
Regardless, the mentality behind "Tanking", "Healing", "Support", "Control", etc etc has NOT gone awhile like some seem to think in GW2. It has simply evolved into a different playstyle to achieve the same roles.
The concentration here is on "Roles" and not necesarrily the requirement of gameplay.
Actually it was Tank, Healing and Crowd Control and any monkey could do DPS so it wasn't part of the trinity.
As I have told you before I dont agree. Trinity = damage mitigation, healing and DPS. All 3 roles are in GW2. IF the trinity was dead you would need to remove at least one of the three roles from the game. All three roles are very much alive in GW2 its just played different. Trinity is very much alive and well in GW2, its just done in a way you dont need to LFG. Its well done and smart and I enjoy it but no MMO have given us the death to the trinity yet.
Actually, they aren't there in GW2. Why? Because no class is dedicated to healing or damage mitigation.
Show me the dedicated healer in GW2. I'd love to see it.
He doesn't understand what the term "Trinity" means. He thinks it means that the game mechanics feature healing, damage and armor / mitigation. He doesn't know that Trinity actually refers to dedicated player roles.
Your talking about the "Holy Trinity or Hard trinity" classes locked into a hard role of damage mitigation, healer or dps. GW2 has a soft trinity, where all the roles of a standard MMO are there but no one class fills just one role. I know very well what the trinity is as I have been MMOing for 14 years and played just about every combo of class and role you can think of. The trinity is very much alive in GW2.
The "Holy Trinity" is the farce idea that a "Perfect" group for raids/group encounters is Tank/Healer/Dps when in fact it has NEVER been simply those three for a "perfect" group. That's why I don't believe that the Trinity EVER existed, and that it was more a mindset of players wanting to pick specific roles for themselves that evolved into game design along the way.
If you don't belive the Trinity ever existed, then you just don't understand game design.
Look the trinity is like a shamrock, you see, there are three separate leaves but they are really all one plant. Unless you get a four leaf clover, but those are blasphemy.
Your talking about the "Holy Trinity or Hard trinity" classes locked into a hard role of damage mitigation, healer or dps. GW2 has a soft trinity, where all the roles of a standard MMO are there but no one class fills just one role. I know very well what the trinity is as I have been MMOing for 14 years and played just about every combo of class and role you can think of. The trinity is very much alive in GW2.
And once again, unless you broaden the definition of "Damage Mitigation" to include all aspects of Control, it does not work that way in GW2.
Your talking about the "Holy Trinity or Hard trinity" classes locked into a hard role of damage mitigation, healer or dps. GW2 has a soft trinity, where all the roles of a standard MMO are there but no one class fills just one role. I know very well what the trinity is as I have been MMOing for 14 years and played just about every combo of class and role you can think of. The trinity is very much alive in GW2.
And once again, unless you broaden the definition of "Damage Mitigation" to include all aspects of Control, it does not work that way in GW2.
Your talking about the "Holy Trinity or Hard trinity" classes locked into a hard role of damage mitigation, healer or dps. GW2 has a soft trinity, where all the roles of a standard MMO are there but no one class fills just one role. I know very well what the trinity is as I have been MMOing for 14 years and played just about every combo of class and role you can think of. The trinity is very much alive in GW2.
And once again, unless you broaden the definition of "Damage Mitigation" to include all aspects of Control, it does not work that way in GW2.
"If you have to drastically change the commonly accepted definition of "trinity" and/or spend 20 pages clarify the exact syntax of what YOUR definition of "trinity" is and how it applies.....
IT DOESN'T APPLY TO THIS GAME."
LOL indeed.
I think the funniest thing is that ANet basically started this whole argument because they said their game didn't have the holy trinity (true), but then they said that the trinity of GW2 is support, control, and DPS.
So I mean, both the statements are technically valid:
1. GW2 does not have the holy trinity.
2. GW2 still has a trinity.
The thing we all have to remember is that when 99% of players say "trinity" they are really referring to the holy trinity. When ANet talked about their game's "trinity," they were just using trinty as a catch all to mean any game concept involving three things.
Your talking about the "Holy Trinity or Hard trinity" classes locked into a hard role of damage mitigation, healer or dps. GW2 has a soft trinity, where all the roles of a standard MMO are there but no one class fills just one role. I know very well what the trinity is as I have been MMOing for 14 years and played just about every combo of class and role you can think of. The trinity is very much alive in GW2.
And once again, unless you broaden the definition of "Damage Mitigation" to include all aspects of Control, it does not work that way in GW2.
Could you point me to the section where it calles the "Soft Trinity" DPS, Healing, and Damage Mitigation?
Cause I see Damage, Support, and Control. What I have been saying all the time.
Are you so new to MMOs you dont know what damage mitigation is? It covers everything that stops or slows down damage you take, from passive skills, to hitting your dodge in GW2, to skills your class has like control and buffs/debuff, your AC and SWToR gave us a new one with a cover mechinic. If you dont know what that is you have no place on this forum till you have read up on MMO terms.
Are you so new to MMOs you dont know what damage mitigation is? It covers everything that stops or slows down damage you take, from passive skills, to hitting your dodge in GW2, to skills your class has like control and buffs/debuff, your AC and SWToR gave us a new one with a cover mechinic. If you dont know what that is you have no place on this forum till you have read up on MMO terms.
This is part of the problem. Your definition is opposed to others.
When most players talk about damage mitigation, they are refering, specifically, with abilities that directly reduce incoming damage. Block, Armor, Evade, etc.
If I asked what Immobilization is, the majority would call it CC, but in truth, It could also be seen as mitigation. Same with a slow. Google Damage Mitigation. See what you get.
Your mixing Control in with Damage Mitigation, and thats confusing the hell out of some poeple.
P.S. - If you cannot tell by my posts that I am well versed in MMO mechanics thats your deal. Im not making a persponal attack, and I would ask you to do the same.
Comments
Well, in regards to balance, it's fairly simple. Provide builds (note: not professions) with heavy burst to overcome the heavy mitigation of a G or stupidly-high health pool of a necro (BTW, they nerfed that already...maybe not a problem anymore?).
There are many others solutions. Much of a G's mitigation and heals comes from A) hitting people,
standing in symbols, C) using Virtues. Effective crowd control and knocking the G out of his pretty circles can help. Stability will be a problem, but there's ways to manage that too. Isolation is also a viable tactic. Keep the G away from his team mates, murder them, then focus on the G.
Necros...Isolation is the way to go here. Necro damage in DS isn't that high. The real hassle is that they are nearly impossible to kill so long as they are constantly getting heals and people are dying around them. Isolate them from others and don't let your people die. DS runs out quicker, and the Necro is in trouble again. Condition management is also important, which is why every player should carry at least one skill into PvP to deal with conditions.
Do not start on addons here please, already arguing that enough in another thread
I get your point though...it's my hope that "balanced" specs (generalist) will bring enough of all three flavors to the table to offset the obvious benefits of specialization. As long as they can do that, Anet doens't have to build the game around either methodology.
Gear balance aside, the skill sets for each class are designed that each class is better at something. 3% boost here, 5% boost there. Guardian healing, Elementlist speced AoE, Ranger speced for ST and you do that accross 30-40 people and that 3-5% boost starts to add up. Do you think ANet will leave it that way? Or even the playing field? If they leave it as is, just like any MMO guilds will be looking for people to fill x,y,z roles with their classes. Not a fixed role where you only do tanking but speced to your clases strengths.
In WoW bad players can seen as good if they have really good gear, they obviously wont be doing as well as they should but they do well enough.
However, in GW2 since player skill matters so much those same bad players will not be able to do as well because they dont have stats carrying them.
So, if a group of good players have an advantageous set up then they will do even better. So, that means other less skilled players will need to have an equally as advantageous set up or more advantageous set up to increase their chances of defeating the good players.
And thus Nanfoodle's valid point would be realized.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04A6CcHIK8o
5 WoW Mages doing Heroic Magisters Terrace.
Note - thisis in 2008, and the mages aren't level 80, they are appropriate level for the content - and when they do get hit they get hit for almost half their life. However, with good use of CC and heavy DPS, they are able to complete the instance.
I'd consider this more "Breaking the Trinity" then the GW2 Video in this thread... as these mages didn't have a "downed" mechanic where they could basically run around battle ressing one another.
Once again, there is a vast realm of difference between being POSSIBLE, and being SUPPORTED by the games mechanics begging to make your aquaintance.
The trinity is the natural progression of the genre, you won't see it broken often in Gw2 because its just simply better overall to utilize those given roles. Guild Wars 2 is enough of a switch from standard mechanics that its fresh, but the community will ultimately move to typical trinity builds for PvE, PvP, and WvW.
One of my fav saying is "Even a broken clock is right twice a day" Thats what that vid is. Now if you showed me the same 5 mages doing every dungeon in WoW, now I would be intersted. GW2 is designed that everyone in the team can handle every role thats needed. No need for burst healing, or a hard core tank.
Skill>all else, thats what i like to see.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
I still don't see how the old mindset of "Tank, Healer, Dps, Control", which some people have mislabeled as "Trinity" is dead. The dynamic of "tanking" has simply changed from standing there soaking up all the damage while someone heals you to being able to hold aggro, dodge, get hit, etc instead of letting squishies take the hit.
It isn't dead, and the simple fact that GW2 clearly defines the differences between the different paths (dps, hp, def, etc) proves that. What they're trying to get away from are elitist setups such as <Main Tank>, <DPS>, <Control>, <Healer>, etc so that people have more freedom. The idea that you need a face-hugger to keep aggro off squishies is still there.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Are you sure you actually understand what the "Holy Trinity" actually is. (hint: you can't have a trinity centered around 4 roles)
Is it really a defined role though if everyone is doing all 3 things? No single person can sit there and tank everything. No single person can sit there spamming heals to keep that tank alive.
They didnt say they were getting rid of healing. They said they were getting rid of dedicated healers and tanks. There is a difference.
He doesn't understand what the term "Trinity" means. He thinks it means that the game mechanics feature healing, damage and armor / mitigation. He doesn't know that Trinity actually refers to dedicated player roles.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
The "Holy Trinity" is the farce idea that a "Perfect" group for raids/group encounters is Tank/Healer/Dps when in fact it has NEVER been simply those three for a "perfect" group. That's why I don't believe that the Trinity EVER existed, and that it was more a mindset of players wanting to pick specific roles for themselves that evolved into game design along the way.
This is why i centered around more than 4 roles, as the 4 I listed were merely examples. There's like more than 5 actually. "Off-Tank" being one of them, but that's more a sub-role than a primary.
Regardless, the mentality behind "Tanking", "Healing", "Support", "Control", etc etc has NOT gone awhile like some seem to think in GW2. It has simply evolved into a different playstyle to achieve the same roles.
The concentration here is on "Roles" and not necesarrily the requirement of gameplay.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
You heard of the Guardian? Go look @ the specific skills of the Guardian & then look at the "Staff" weapon for Guardians. They are about as much of a healer as a Cleric is in EQ2. They're so HEAVY on support compared to other classes it's almost laughable.
I played a Staff Healer Guardian in GW2 for a couple hours in PvP and I was able to easily keep myself and two others players up for more than half a match vs 5 enemy players constantly from all of my support/healing.
There isn't a Class specific to healing, but if there was one to point to it'd be Guardian. Now, does their class specifically say "Healer"? No, but that doesn't mean the mindset behind the developers for that class isn't something similar.
Also, the idea that Classes still exist in a "Role-less" game is laughable. You don't see the irony that they're trying to get away from the mindset of having a specific "Role" but left classes in the game?
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I think this thread can be summed up with-
"If you have to drastically change the commonly accepted definition of "trinity" and/or spend 20 pages clarify the exact syntax of what YOUR definition of "trinity" is and how it applies.....
IT DOESN'T APPLY TO THIS GAME."
Actually it was Tank, Healing and Crowd Control and any monkey could do DPS so it wasn't part of the trinity.
Your talking about the "Holy Trinity or Hard trinity" classes locked into a hard role of damage mitigation, healer or dps. GW2 has a soft trinity, where all the roles of a standard MMO are there but no one class fills just one role. I know very well what the trinity is as I have been MMOing for 14 years and played just about every combo of class and role you can think of. The trinity is very much alive in GW2.
If you don't belive the Trinity ever existed, then you just don't understand game design.
Look the trinity is like a shamrock, you see, there are three separate leaves but they are really all one plant. Unless you get a four leaf clover, but those are blasphemy.
And once again, unless you broaden the definition of "Damage Mitigation" to include all aspects of Control, it does not work that way in GW2.
Then why is it on the official wiki?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Wiki:Projects/Soft_trinity
Could you point me to the section where it calles the "Soft Trinity" DPS, Healing, and Damage Mitigation?
Cause I see Damage, Support, and Control. What I have been saying all the time.
LOL indeed.
I think the funniest thing is that ANet basically started this whole argument because they said their game didn't have the holy trinity (true), but then they said that the trinity of GW2 is support, control, and DPS.
So I mean, both the statements are technically valid:
1. GW2 does not have the holy trinity.
2. GW2 still has a trinity.
The thing we all have to remember is that when 99% of players say "trinity" they are really referring to the holy trinity. When ANet talked about their game's "trinity," they were just using trinty as a catch all to mean any game concept involving three things.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Are you so new to MMOs you dont know what damage mitigation is? It covers everything that stops or slows down damage you take, from passive skills, to hitting your dodge in GW2, to skills your class has like control and buffs/debuff, your AC and SWToR gave us a new one with a cover mechinic. If you dont know what that is you have no place on this forum till you have read up on MMO terms.
This is part of the problem. Your definition is opposed to others.
When most players talk about damage mitigation, they are refering, specifically, with abilities that directly reduce incoming damage. Block, Armor, Evade, etc.
If I asked what Immobilization is, the majority would call it CC, but in truth, It could also be seen as mitigation. Same with a slow. Google Damage Mitigation. See what you get.
Your mixing Control in with Damage Mitigation, and thats confusing the hell out of some poeple.
P.S. - If you cannot tell by my posts that I am well versed in MMO mechanics thats your deal. Im not making a persponal attack, and I would ask you to do the same.