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The trinity broken (video)

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  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
     

    The people that want to lose aggro pull it to some one else then dodge away as just one example. You could also knockdown or criple the mob so that it goes to the next closest target.

    sounds like playing the CC game not tanking though

    A taunt is a CC ability. All you're doing is managing aggro. It's done very differently (better IMO) in this game but it's still there.

    just being in range is all aggro is in this game.. it's not an extra statistic like in traditional MMOs. I still don't see how you can define anyone having a "tank" role

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • AldersAlders Member RarePosts: 2,149

    That video was actually pretty bad.  He dies to traps that 1-shot and cries for a tank?  I don't think he fully understood how some of the mechanics work.

    Also, control is more important than dps.  Combo fields are more important than dps.  None of that was talked about.

  • XzenXzen Member UncommonPosts: 2,607
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
     

    The people that want to lose aggro pull it to some one else then dodge away as just one example. You could also knockdown or criple the mob so that it goes to the next closest target.

    sounds like playing the CC game not tanking though

    A taunt is a CC ability. All you're doing is managing aggro. It's done very differently (better IMO) in this game but it's still there.

    just being in range is all aggro is in this game.. it's not an extra statistic like in traditional MMOs. I still don't see how you can define anyone having a "tank" role

    When one of my party members is down and the other is rezzing them and I am keeping the mob occupied and away from them I am filling the role of a tank.

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
     

    The people that want to lose aggro pull it to some one else then dodge away as just one example. You could also knockdown or criple the mob so that it goes to the next closest target.

    sounds like playing the CC game not tanking though

    A taunt is a CC ability. All you're doing is managing aggro. It's done very differently (better IMO) in this game but it's still there.

    just being in range is all aggro is in this game.. it's not an extra statistic like in traditional MMOs. I still don't see how you can define anyone having a "tank" role

    When one of my party members is down and the other is rezzing them and I am keeping the mob occupied and away from them I am filling the role of a tank.

    so my rogue in wow overdid it in dps and now pulled all the aggro and im running my ass off trying to get away my rogue is now a tank? interesting

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • XzenXzen Member UncommonPosts: 2,607
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
     

    The people that want to lose aggro pull it to some one else then dodge away as just one example. You could also knockdown or criple the mob so that it goes to the next closest target.

    sounds like playing the CC game not tanking though

    A taunt is a CC ability. All you're doing is managing aggro. It's done very differently (better IMO) in this game but it's still there.

    just being in range is all aggro is in this game.. it's not an extra statistic like in traditional MMOs. I still don't see how you can define anyone having a "tank" role

    When one of my party members is down and the other is rezzing them and I am keeping the mob occupied and away from them I am filling the role of a tank.

    so my rogue in wow overdid it in dps and now pulled all the aggro and im running my ass off trying to get away my rogue is now a tank? interesting

    In that situation you are filling the role of a bad rogue not a tank. =P

  • friednietzfriednietz Member Posts: 118

    I saw the video earlier and thought it was interesting. I'll definitely be experimenting with group compositions come release.

    On another note, Guild Wars 2 does not have a holy trinity. And no amount of mental gymnastics will change that.

  • NobadeeftwNobadeeftw Member UncommonPosts: 129

    I'm personally glade they smashed the trinity.  Now when you want to do some group content, you just grab a bunch of people and go, not worrying about who's what.  This is a nice step in the right direction for once!  =D

  • fyerwallfyerwall Member UncommonPosts: 3,240

    Sigh, lets just stop the argument here;

    There is no dedicated trinity play. What Anet means by no trinity is that you do not have to have specific classes to make a group viable. 

    Now what I am worried about in this game, because you know it will happen somehow... The Community creating a 'trinity effect'. You know with "Must have XX skill and YY etc". Because if there is a way to ruin a good idea, it always starts with the community at large.

    There are 3 types of people in the world.
    1.) Those who make things happen
    2.) Those who watch things happen
    3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"


  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
     

    The people that want to lose aggro pull it to some one else then dodge away as just one example. You could also knockdown or criple the mob so that it goes to the next closest target.

    sounds like playing the CC game not tanking though

    A taunt is a CC ability. All you're doing is managing aggro. It's done very differently (better IMO) in this game but it's still there.

    just being in range is all aggro is in this game.. it's not an extra statistic like in traditional MMOs. I still don't see how you can define anyone having a "tank" role

    When one of my party members is down and the other is rezzing them and I am keeping the mob occupied and away from them I am filling the role of a tank.

    so my rogue in wow overdid it in dps and now pulled all the aggro and im running my ass off trying to get away my rogue is now a tank? interesting

    In that situation you are filling the role of a bad rogue not a tank. =P

    how you are preseting your argument as long as you are taking mobs attention away from others you are filling the role of a tank per say.  That is very differn't than controlling mobs aggro and mitigating damage done to you. It also plays out very differn't as well.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • F0rumLurkerF0rumLurker Member Posts: 58

    Wait a minute... You're telling me this whole time the devs were actually right and Pokket was wrong the whole time? This whole time I thought "the trinity isn’t gone, it just works differently" because of her!

     

    http://www.gamebreaker.tv/uncategorized/this-week-in-mmo-60-pax-pax-pax/

    15:46

    Anybody actually remember this episode?

  • PurgatusPurgatus Member Posts: 342
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
     

    The people that want to lose aggro pull it to some one else then dodge away as just one example. You could also knockdown or criple the mob so that it goes to the next closest target.

    sounds like playing the CC game not tanking though

    A taunt is a CC ability. All you're doing is managing aggro. It's done very differently (better IMO) in this game but it's still there.

    just being in range is all aggro is in this game.. it's not an extra statistic like in traditional MMOs. I still don't see how you can define anyone having a "tank" role

    When one of my party members is down and the other is rezzing them and I am keeping the mob occupied and away from them I am filling the role of a tank.

    so my rogue in wow overdid it in dps and now pulled all the aggro and im running my ass off trying to get away my rogue is now a tank? interesting

    In that situation you are filling the role of a bad rogue not a tank. =P

    how you are preseting your argument as long as you are taking mobs attention away from others you are filling the role of a tank per say.  That is very differn't than controlling mobs aggro and mitigating damage done to you. It also plays out very differn't as well.

    Remember, Anet defines the core of the tank's purpose as Control.

    What you are doing is control, not tanking.

  • XzenXzen Member UncommonPosts: 2,607
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
     

    The people that want to lose aggro pull it to some one else then dodge away as just one example. You could also knockdown or criple the mob so that it goes to the next closest target.

    sounds like playing the CC game not tanking though

    A taunt is a CC ability. All you're doing is managing aggro. It's done very differently (better IMO) in this game but it's still there.

    just being in range is all aggro is in this game.. it's not an extra statistic like in traditional MMOs. I still don't see how you can define anyone having a "tank" role

    When one of my party members is down and the other is rezzing them and I am keeping the mob occupied and away from them I am filling the role of a tank.

    so my rogue in wow overdid it in dps and now pulled all the aggro and im running my ass off trying to get away my rogue is now a tank? interesting

    In that situation you are filling the role of a bad rogue not a tank. =P

    how you are preseting your argument as long as you are taking mobs attention away from others you are filling the role of a tank per say.  That is very differn't than controlling mobs aggro and mitigating damage done to you. It also plays out very differn't as well.

    No the difference is if you are filling that role or not. Intentionally holding aggro and pulling aggro accidently are two different things. Then again even in WoW they say to everyone "You spank it you tank it." no matter what class you are. Tanking is a role that the player takes on it's not determined by what skills you have.

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Xzen
     

    No the difference is if you are filling that role or not. Intentionally holding aggro and pulling aggro accidently are two different things. Then again even in WoW they say to everyone "You spank it you tank it." no matter what class you are. Tanking is a role that the player takes on it's not determined by what skills you have.

    by how you guys are viewing this no traditional style MMORPG can ever not have the trinity system. 

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • MeowheadMeowhead Member UncommonPosts: 3,716

    Holy trinity is not determined by the presence of dealing/taking/healing damage... that would make any game that has HP you can fill back up a holy trinity game (Like Metroid).... it's determined by them being playable, required roles.

    They're the trinity because they're all needed for (at the least, high end) content.

  • FadedbombFadedbomb Member Posts: 2,081

    Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but that video proves nothing.

     

     

    You can do the same thing in EQ2, or even EQ, with a pure DPS group and no healing. Done it personally with friends, and multiboxing, just fine on multiple occasions.

     

    Not sure why people concentrated so heavily on this video?

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • PurgatusPurgatus Member Posts: 342
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but that video proves nothing.

     

     

    You can do the same thing in EQ2, or even EQ, with a pure DPS group and no healing. Done it personally with friends, and multiboxing, just fine on multiple occasions.

     

    Not sure why people concentrated so heavily on this video?

    Seems like there would be a difference between some players doing a dungeon for the first time (and with inappropirate gear), and veteran players grinding a dungeon for the zillionth time.

    It possible to do in other games, but generally so hards its a non-issue. The point being the game clearly supports the idea of playing with any group comp you wish.

     

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Member Posts: 877
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but that video proves nothing.

     

     

    You can do the same thing in EQ2, or even EQ, with a pure DPS group and no healing. Done it personally with friends, and multiboxing, just fine on multiple occasions.

     

    Not sure why people concentrated so heavily on this video?

    Well those games do have gear inflation unlike GW2 where it's a plataue, did you complete those at lvl and at gear lvl being not epiced out? 

    But since it's inception ANet has stated that GW2 will be on the basis of bring any class whoever class philosophy so really don't see why people are getting all in a hufff n a puff over this.  Not like we didn't see this coming a year ago.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,723
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but that video proves nothing.

     

     

    You can do the same thing in EQ2, or even EQ, with a pure DPS group and no healing. Done it personally with friends, and multiboxing, just fine on multiple occasions.

     

    Not sure why people concentrated so heavily on this video?

    Seems like there would be a difference between some players doing a dungeon for the first time (and with inappropirate gear), and veteran players grinding a dungeon for the zillionth time.

    It possible to do in other games, but generally so hards its a non-issue. The point being the game clearly supports the idea of playing with any group comp you wish.

     

    I love GW2 but this claim to the death of the trinity is just not true. Non-traditional healing is not new to MMOs, rare but not new. Fact is in every encounter someone has to heal, mitigate damage and DPS. Its not one persons job in the team but at any given moment its most likely happening. Its not done in the terditional sense but its there. Matter of fact you cant get any content done without healing, damage mitigation and dps, in GW2. To say there is no trinity in GW2, we would need to remove the need of at least 1 leg of the trinity. The fact its NEEDED to get content done shows its there and alive. I like how ANet has turned it on its head and made it a new and fresh approach. Its about time, but its not gone or dead. No MMO has been able to remove it as of yet,



  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
     

    I love GW2 but this claim to the death of the trinity is just not true. Non-traditional healing is not new to MMOs, rare but not new. Fact is in every encounter someone has to heal, mitigate damage and DPS. Its not one persons job in the team but at any given moment its most likely happening. Its not done in the terditional sense but its there. Matter of fact you cant get any content done without healing, damage mitigation and dps, in GW2. To say there is no trinity in GW2, we would need to remove the need of at least 1 leg of the trinity. The fact its NEEDED to get content done shows its there and alive. I like how ANet has turned it on its head and made it a new and fresh approach. Its about time, but its not gone or dead. No MMO has been able to remove it as of yet,

    again in this mindset no game like this will probably ever drop what you view as a trinity based system.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • ComafComaf Member UncommonPosts: 1,150

    You can take 5 rogues and let them dps in a number of places in WoW that are comparable to Ascalon.  It's just not viable for people who have a schedule.

     

    I applaud the OP, though, I would never want to deal with that much BS in a dungeon.  Get me a tank and a healer - the dynamic of the RPG is what really makes a game fun.

     

    [mod edit]

    But hey, before I get banned for speaking my mind as an adult, let me say that GW2 looks like a very fun video game.  [mod edit]

    image
  • CcDohlCcDohl Member Posts: 65

    So you can get to max level in one weekend? Or was the leveling process sped up for the beta?

  • PurgatusPurgatus Member Posts: 342
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    *snip*

    I love GW2 but this claim to the death of the trinity is just not true. Non-traditional healing is not new to MMOs, rare but not new. Fact is in every encounter someone has to heal, mitigate damage and DPS. Its not one persons job in the team but at any given moment its most likely happening. Its not done in the terditional sense but its there. Matter of fact you cant get any content done without healing, damage mitigation and dps, in GW2. To say there is no trinity in GW2, we would need to remove the need of at least 1 leg of the trinity. The fact its NEEDED to get content done shows its there and alive. I like how ANet has turned it on its head and made it a new and fresh approach. Its about time, but its not gone or dead. No MMO has been able to remove it as of yet,

    Did you see that video? They were all new to the dungeon, and had just one rule, you had to spec for DPS. No one speced for Support OR Control. NO healers and NO tanks. Not even in the GW2 sense of the word.

    It seems clear that your definition of the Holy Trinity does not match that of the populace. My understanding of it is this:

     

    The Tank absorbs hits and focuses the mob so that it hits no one else. He is speced so that hits do less damage to him than anyone else.

    The Healer focuses healing solely on the tank (Unless something goes very wrong). He makes sure that the Tank survives.

    The DPS does the damage, as the other two roles do next to nothing to the enemy.

     

    And to top it all off, each role focuses on this to the exclusion of everything else. All major content must be handled with AT LEAST these three types.

     

    So how does GW2 break away from this? First off they re-define the roles.

    The Tank is a specialist form of Control. Manipulating the enemies, and keeping them from harming the group. It needs to be clear you can CONTROL a mob without TANKING them. They are two different things.

    The Healer is a reactive form of Support, assisting your team in the dealing and reciving of damage. It needs to be clear that you can SUPPORT your team without HEALING them. They are two different things.

    DPS is pretty standard to all games, and needs no comment here.

     

    So outside of re-defining the roles, now we add in the idea that each Profession has the ability to perform any role, but in a way unique to that profession. As a Thief I could DPS the mob, I could specialize in poisons and traps to CONTROL his movments, or I could SUPPORT by giveing them poisoned weapons or stealthing them in crisis.

    So now any profession can take up any role and contribute in a way different than the Holy Trinity directs.

     

    Not only do wn not have the traditional three roles of the holy trinity, but now we do not have to constrict ourselves to that role alone.

     

  • ariboersmaariboersma Member Posts: 1,802

    I just love how the guy complains about deaths while standing in a TRAP! SPIKE ARENT GOOD FOR YOUR HEALTH! Oh and when the add comes up behind him I was like "HEAL YOURSELF!" and then he died... Why does no one in vids heal themselves?

    image

  • ZorgoZorgo Member UncommonPosts: 2,248
    Originally posted by mikuniman
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    Here let me, this is my healing spec that has my guildies screaming for me to come do sPvP, WvW and dungeons with them.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wsbavY2Q2M&feature=plcp

    http://www.gw2builds.org/view/511159/hot_team_defence_mace_shield_spec_w_video

    They love my Guardian healing. Its the topic of many threads and model for many WvW raid set up. It will come down in the end what classes do what best and top end guilds will be looking for people to fit x,y,z spec to file x,y,z roles to get the best results. Sure there are more options and things are dressed differently but in the end GW2 has roles and to be the best people will be pigeon holed into them. Welcome to MMOs where the trinity has never been removed!!!!

    You do realize that the video you just linked starts off by saying:

    "I know everyone's been super excited about the death of the holy trinity, and while that's true, I wanted to remind people about the importance of support"

     

    So? Then he goes on to say that speced healing his team win fights more often and even when they are outmatched. My guild has played a lot with classes and what roles they do best. Just like every other MMO GW2 will be played this way. You want to win WvW raids, you need X number of healing guardians, x number of sheild guardians, x number of Elementlist CCers, so on and so on. The trinity is not dead because all the roles are there and each class does something better. Sure no one will be the full time healer or tank. But when the poop hits the fan we are going to look to x,y,z classes to do what they do best so we can win. All 3 roles are in GW2 and the trinity is very much alive!!!

    A trinity dinosaur = (if you would strike a dinosaur's foot with the size of a dino's brain given the distamce from foot to brain it would take eons for him to feel the pain) You'll get it someday.

    And it may take you a couple of years, but, I think what he is saying is, one day you will wake up and realize:

    The emperor wears no clothes.

  • MagnnarotMagnnarot Member Posts: 50
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but that video proves nothing.

     

     

    You can do the same thing in EQ2, or even EQ, with a pure DPS group and no healing. Done it personally with friends, and multiboxing, just fine on multiple occasions.

     

    Not sure why people concentrated so heavily on this video?

    Seems like there would be a difference between some players doing a dungeon for the first time (and with inappropirate gear), and veteran players grinding a dungeon for the zillionth time.

    It possible to do in other games, but generally so hards its a non-issue. The point being the game clearly supports the idea of playing with any group comp you wish.

     

    I love GW2 but this claim to the death of the trinity is just not true. Non-traditional healing is not new to MMOs, rare but not new. Fact is in every encounter someone has to heal, mitigate damage and DPS. Its not one persons job in the team but at any given moment its most likely happening. Its not done in the terditional sense but its there. Matter of fact you cant get any content done without healing, damage mitigation and dps, in GW2. To say there is no trinity in GW2, we would need to remove the need of at least 1 leg of the trinity. The fact its NEEDED to get content done shows its there and alive. I like how ANet has turned it on its head and made it a new and fresh approach. Its about time, but its not gone or dead. No MMO has been able to remove it as of yet,

    Sorry to break it to you but it IS dead, in a sense of specialization, having one dedicated healer/tank is the best way to wipe, to properly play through dungeons every single member has to watch for their own health and know when to pass/try to get aggro. The key word in gw2 is not healing, it is AVOIDING damage.

    That being said, my experience in explorable mode was based on adapting to the current fight, not having a set spec from beginning to end. First real boss required atleast a stun breaker, as he would scotpion wire the entire party and proceed to use the thief's dagger storm elite, killing everyone near him instantly. The second event, though overtuned, required the party to spec for a dps race and kill burrows that continually spawned increasingly strong gravelings all across a room, all while protecting two matter extractors (apparently a single group managed to beat that explorable mode path), we didn't manage to beat it, maybe because we lacked skill, maybe because we lacked proper level gear (as explorable modes are apparently better scaled to 80s).

    Again, GW2 isnt about fixed roles, it is about ADAPTATION, analyze your surroundings and choose the best path that works for you, not a NEED to have a tank, healer and dps.

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