Im gona stop here. I get why many of you say the trinity is dead. No one class will ever play the tank and be the only tank in the team. Same with healing and DPS. All I am saying is I dont think the trinity is dead because all classes will be doing all 3 roles. Fighting a boss the team will take turns doing all 3 roles. For me, thats why I dont think the trinity is dead. All 3 roles are in the game and at any given time fighting a boss they will all be in play. For the trinity to be dead IMO would have to have 1 of 2 things happen.
1. Remove healing or tanking all together. No one does it.
2. Everyone does all 3 roles equally.
Because #2 is not true in GW2, when poop hits the fan or you have a raid in WvW going on. People are going to looking to classes to do what they do best so we win. You dont think guilds wont be looking for people to play Sheild Guardians and pasive heal Guardians for healing and mitigation? Their HoT is better then any class. If a class does something 3-5% better then guilds will look for that edge. 3% here, 1% here, 5% over here and now you have a huge advantage. Right now min maxing is hard to do with a new game. Give it 6 months and it will be set in stone unless ANet changes what they have built now.
trinity system (as you have tested) is tank,healer and dps
now lets take WoW as an example...
to be able to clear a instance you 1 Warrior (prot spec) 1 Priest (holy spec) 3 rogues (sure not the best setup but thats not the point now) and how they work it pretty clear. with other words dedicated tank and healer is needed.
dedicated = you need spec + gear. you dont tank in dps gear or tank in dps spec
now that point with GW2 is you dont need to be "prot spec" (aka dedicated) to "tank" as a warrior (hell you dont need a warrior/guardian to run an instance according to ANET). if you wish you can run an instance with 5 warriors even.
with no dedicated roles there are no trinity system. sure some class "can" heal/tank but they dont need to spec or gear to do it
Which class can tank?!?!?!!?!? lol, I just wanted to know. Because the AI disagree unfortunately.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Im gona stop here. I get why many of you say the trinity is dead. No one class will ever play the tank and be the only tank in the team. Same with healing and DPS. All I am saying is I dont think the trinity is dead because all classes will be doing all 3 roles. Fighting a boss the team will take turns doing all 3 roles. For me, thats why I dont think the trinity is dead. All 3 roles are in the game and at any given time fighting a boss they will all be in play. For the trinity to be dead IMO would have to have 1 of 2 things happen.
1. Remove healing or tanking all together. No one does it.
2. Everyone does all 3 roles equally.
Because #2 is not true in GW2, when poop hits the fan or you have a raid in WvW going on. People are going to looking to classes to do what they do best so we win. You dont think guilds wont be looking for people to play Sheild Guardians and pasive heal Guardians for healing and mitigation? Their HoT is better then any class. If a class does something 3-5% better then guilds will look for that edge. 3% here, 1% here, 5% over here and now you have a huge advantage. Right now min maxing is hard to do with a new game. Give it 6 months and it will be set in stone unless ANet changes what they have built now.
trinity system (as you have tested) is tank,healer and dps
now lets take WoW as an example...
to be able to clear a instance you 1 Warrior (prot spec) 1 Priest (holy spec) 3 rogues (sure not the best setup but thats not the point now) and how they work it pretty clear. with other words dedicated tank and healer is needed.
dedicated = you need spec + gear. you dont tank in dps gear or tank in dps spec
now that point with GW2 is you dont need to be "prot spec" (aka dedicated) to "tank" as a warrior (hell you dont need a warrior/guardian to run an instance according to ANET). if you wish you can run an instance with 5 warriors even.
with no dedicated roles there are no trinity system. sure some class "can" heal/tank but they dont need to spec or gear to do it
Which class can tank?!?!?!!?!? lol, I just wanted to know. Because the AI disagree unfortunately.
you totally missed the point.... im saying that there is no "tanks"
Im gona stop here. I get why many of you say the trinity is dead. No one class will ever play the tank and be the only tank in the team. Same with healing and DPS. All I am saying is I dont think the trinity is dead because all classes will be doing all 3 roles. Fighting a boss the team will take turns doing all 3 roles. For me, thats why I dont think the trinity is dead. All 3 roles are in the game and at any given time fighting a boss they will all be in play. For the trinity to be dead IMO would have to have 1 of 2 things happen.
1. Remove healing or tanking all together. No one does it.
2. Everyone does all 3 roles equally.
Because #2 is not true in GW2, when poop hits the fan or you have a raid in WvW going on. People are going to looking to classes to do what they do best so we win. You dont think guilds wont be looking for people to play Sheild Guardians and pasive heal Guardians for healing and mitigation? Their HoT is better then any class. If a class does something 3-5% better then guilds will look for that edge. 3% here, 1% here, 5% over here and now you have a huge advantage. Right now min maxing is hard to do with a new game. Give it 6 months and it will be set in stone unless ANet changes what they have built now.
trinity system (as you have tested) is tank,healer and dps
now lets take WoW as an example...
to be able to clear a instance you 1 Warrior (prot spec) 1 Priest (holy spec) 3 rogues (sure not the best setup but thats not the point now) and how they work it pretty clear. with other words dedicated tank and healer is needed.
dedicated = you need spec + gear. you dont tank in dps gear or tank in dps spec
now that point with GW2 is you dont need to be "prot spec" (aka dedicated) to "tank" as a warrior (hell you dont need a warrior/guardian to run an instance according to ANET). if you wish you can run an instance with 5 warriors even.
with no dedicated roles there are no trinity system. sure some class "can" heal/tank but they dont need to spec or gear to do it
Which class can tank?!?!?!!?!? lol, I just wanted to know. Because the AI disagree unfortunately.
you totally missed the point.... im saying that there is no "tanks"
I agreed lol.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I'm just glad that people can finally play any class and any build without worrying about whether or not they'll be able to play with their friends or accomplish their goals.
Elitist players and their guilds will find ways to create req builds for the dungeons. I hope not but I fear that it will happen regardless.
Here is how it will work, happened with WoW and add ons. Guilds find what classes do what best in combo with what classes. They will get a 5-15% boots from doing so, so other guilds will follow suit to be able to keep up. Now content is 5-15% easier then it should be so ANet needs to take it up a notch to keep things fun and hard. Now everyone really needs to follow suit. Only way to stop this is if ANet changes the classes to make everyone equal at each area of the game. A Gaurdian HoT pasive heals are just as good as a Elementalist. Guardian sheilds for tanking are equal to.... so on and so forth. It can only go 2 ways.
This was the same for WoW and add ons. Guilds were killing content so Blizzard could remove add ons or make content harder and force everyone to use add ons. They went with forcing everyone to use add ons. ANet is in the same boat with roles. Make everyone equal or min maxing on what class does what role better will be the way. Trinity is not dead. Wait 6 months and see. This one is in ANets hands.
I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.
Last time I'll explain this lol
If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.
*sigh*
Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.
Can everone Tank? Sure
Can everyone Heal? Sure
Can everyone DPS? Sure
Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.
NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol
You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.
I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.
Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.
At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.
Okay, you can try to define "holy trinity" to mean that healing, damage mitigation, and damage exist, but that is a bad idea. It makes the term completely worthless because EVERY, yes EVERY MMO that involves combat has those concepts. Even UO! Heck, even several fighting games, FPS's and RTS's have those roles.
Second, the definition of holy trinity meaning there are classes that are more or less dedicated to the trinity roles in combat is pretty much the accepted definition. If you don't believe me...check out these sites:
When you try to redefine the holy trinity to mean that damage, healing, and mitigation simply exist, then you are not only rendering the term useless, you are also going against the definition that just about everyone else uses for no real reason other than to prove that you're right or something.
Also...there is already a term for the thing in games that involves damage, mitigation, and healing...it's called combat.
I'm just glad that people can finally play any class and any build without worrying about whether or not they'll be able to play with their friends or accomplish their goals.
Elitist players and their guilds will find ways to create req builds for the dungeons. I hope not but I fear that it will happen regardless.
Here is how it will work, happened with WoW and add ons. Guilds find what classes do what best in combo with what classes. They will get a 5-15% boots from doing so, so other guilds will follow suit to be able to keep up. Now content is 5-15% easier then it should be so ANet needs to take it up a notch to keep things fun and hard. Now everyone really needs to follow suit. Only way to stop this is if ANet changes the classes to make everyone equal at each area of the game. A Gaurdian HoT pasive heals are just as good as a Elementalist. Guardian sheilds for tanking are equal to.... so on and so forth. It can only go 2 ways.
This was the same for WoW and add ons. Guilds were killing content so Blizzard could remove add ons or make content harder and force everyone to use add ons. They went with forcing everyone to use add ons. ANet is in the same boat with roles. Make everyone equal or min maxing on what class does what role better will be the way. Trinity is not dead. Wait 6 months and see. This one is in ANets hands.
Trinity is dead - Unlike WoW and Rift, for example - 10 skills can only be used and no mods of any kind. One would need more skills to do what you are proposing, since one will be a self heal - 4 will be tied to your weapons that leave 4 and one elite. I doubt you could heal or prot, or tank like you can in Rift, etc. Also the mobs move more in GW2 than they do in any other game - they do not sit still.
I'm just glad that people can finally play any class and any build without worrying about whether or not they'll be able to play with their friends or accomplish their goals.
Elitist players and their guilds will find ways to create req builds for the dungeons. I hope not but I fear that it will happen regardless.
Here is how it will work, happened with WoW and add ons. Guilds find what classes do what best in combo with what classes. They will get a 5-15% boots from doing so, so other guilds will follow suit to be able to keep up. Now content is 5-15% easier then it should be so ANet needs to take it up a notch to keep things fun and hard. Now everyone really needs to follow suit. Only way to stop this is if ANet changes the classes to make everyone equal at each area of the game. A Gaurdian HoT pasive heals are just as good as a Elementalist. Guardian sheilds for tanking are equal to.... so on and so forth. It can only go 2 ways.
This was the same for WoW and add ons. Guilds were killing content so Blizzard could remove add ons or make content harder and force everyone to use add ons. They went with forcing everyone to use add ons. ANet is in the same boat with roles. Make everyone equal or min maxing on what class does what role better will be the way. Trinity is not dead. Wait 6 months and see. This one is in ANets hands.
Trinity is dead - Unlike WoW and Rift, for example - 10 skills can only be used and no mods of any kind. One would need more skills to do what you are proposing, since one will be a self heal - 4 will be tied to your weapons that leave 4 and one elite. I doubt you could heal or prot, or tank like you can in Rift, etc. Also the mobs move more in GW2 than they do in any other game - they do not sit still.
You are missing the point.
Even if you could spec your class out to be a "pure healer" or "pure tank" it wouldn't even matter because there is no aggro control. Trinity combat completely revolves around the tank being able to hold aggro. Take that away, no more trinity combat.
Even in WoW, if you removed the ability for tanks to hold aggro, the game would cease to be a trinity game. It would also be an incredibly broken game, but that's besides the point .
Even if you could spec your class out to be a "pure healer" or "pure tank" it wouldn't even matter because there is no aggro control. Trinity combat completely revolves around the tank being able to hold aggro. Take that away, no more trinity combat.
Even in WoW, if you removed the ability for tanks to hold aggro, the game would cease to be a trinity game. It would also be an incredibly broken game, but that's besides the point .
if going by that definition - then Guild Wars already did it in 2005
I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.
Last time I'll explain this lol
If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.
*sigh*
Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.
Can everone Tank? Sure
Can everyone Heal? Sure
Can everyone DPS? Sure
Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.
NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol
You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.
I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.
Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.
At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.
Okay, you can try to define "holy trinity" to mean that healing, damage mitigation, and damage exist, but that is a bad idea. It makes the term completely worthless because EVERY, yes EVERY MMO that involves combat has those concepts. Even UO! Heck, even several fighting games, FPS's and RTS's have those roles.
Second, the definition of holy trinity meaning there are classes that are more or less dedicated to the trinity roles in combat is pretty much the accepted definition. If you don't believe me...check out these sites:
When you try to redefine to redefine the holy trinity to mean that damage, healing, and mitigation simply exist, then you are not only rendering the term useless, you are also going against the definition that just about everyone else uses for no real reason other than to prove that you're right or something.
Also...there is already a term for the thing in games that involves damage, mitigation, and healing...it's called combat.
No it breaks it down to its small core elements. Lets look at it this way. Dr tells a guys that if he does not stop eating a Mc Donalds he will die. So he stops eating cheap burgers and fries and all the sugar from pop. So he heads down to a high classes restaurant and skips the food the Dr said is killing him and now eats nothing but fine dining. He dies 3 years later. Why? Because it was not cheap burgers and fries but the food he ate had the same fat content.
GW2 may not be WoWs cheap burgers and fries but is still made up of meat and potatoes. Differently proportioned but still the same stuff. If ANet had removed healing I could agree with you. Same with tanking. But the same game mechanics are there, tanking, healing and DPS. Other problem is the classes are not even equal at the same roles. So guild min maxing is going to take place. No longer will they say we need someone to till x,y,z role. They will say what classes can fill them best. Now everyone is healing but we also want a Guardian to be there for that extra boost. Everyone takes turns tanking but we want X class to be there for when he enrages.
I have been reading the top end guilds forums and they have been testing this out and it works. The trinity is not dead, its just dressed differently. And people will be demanding X class for WvW to play y role more oten then its other 3 it can do.
I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.
Last time I'll explain this lol
If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.
*sigh*
Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.
Can everone Tank? Sure
Can everyone Heal? Sure
Can everyone DPS? Sure
Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.
NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol
You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.
I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.
Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.
At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.
Okay, you can try to define "holy trinity" to mean that healing, damage mitigation, and damage exist, but that is a bad idea. It makes the term completely worthless because EVERY, yes EVERY MMO that involves combat has those concepts. Even UO! Heck, even several fighting games, FPS's and RTS's have those roles.
Second, the definition of holy trinity meaning there are classes that are more or less dedicated to the trinity roles in combat is pretty much the accepted definition. If you don't believe me...check out these sites:
When you try to redefine to redefine the holy trinity to mean that damage, healing, and mitigation simply exist, then you are not only rendering the term useless, you are also going against the definition that just about everyone else uses for no real reason other than to prove that you're right or something.
Also...there is already a term for the thing in games that involves damage, mitigation, and healing...it's called combat.
No it breaks it down to its smile core elements. Lets look at it this way. Dr tells a guys that if he does not stop eating a Mc Donalds he will die. So he stops eating cheap burgers and fries and all the sugar from pop. So he heads down to a high classes restaurant and skips the food the Dr said is killing him and now eats nothing but fine dining. He dies 3 years later. Why? Because it was not cheap burgers and fries but the food he ate had the same fat content.
GW2 may not be WoWs cheap burgers and fries but is still made up of meat and potatoes. Differently proportioned but still the same stuff. If ANet had removed healing I could agree with you. Same with tanking. But the same game mechanics are there, tanking, healing and DPS. Other problem is the classes are not even equal at the same roles. So guild min maxing is going to take place. No longer will they say we need someone to till x,y,z role. They will say what classes can fill them best. Now everyone is healing but we also want a Guardian to be there for that extra boost. Everyone takes turns tanking but we want X class to be there for when he enrages.
I have been reading the top end guilds forums and they have been testing this out and it works. The trinity is not dead, its just dressed differently. And people will be demanding X class for WvW to play y role more oten then its other 3 it can do.
Your analogy makes no sense.
I award you no points.
And may god have mercy on your soul .
Billy Madison aside....you do realize none of your "tanking" scenarios will work because YOU CAN'T CONTROL AGGRO. Even if you make a spec that has the best damage mitigation possible, it seriously won't matter when the mob kills your squishyy elementalist who delibaritely specced glass cannon so he could be "DPS" because you couldn't peel the mob off of him.
Yes you can spec to have more control, yes you can spec to have more DPS or support...but this does NOT make GW2 a trinity game. Trinity means something VERY SPECIFIC. You have to have a tank controlling aggro, DPS doing most of the damage, and a healer keeping the tank up and saving DPS if they get aggro. If you don't have that, it's not a holy trinity game...that simple.
I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.
Last time I'll explain this lol
If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.
*sigh*
Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.
Can everone Tank? Sure
Can everyone Heal? Sure
Can everyone DPS? Sure
Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.
NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol
You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.
I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.
Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.
At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.
Okay, you can try to define "holy trinity" to mean that healing, damage mitigation, and damage exist, but that is a bad idea. It makes the term completely worthless because EVERY, yes EVERY MMO that involves combat has those concepts. Even UO! Heck, even several fighting games, FPS's and RTS's have those roles.
Second, the definition of holy trinity meaning there are classes that are more or less dedicated to the trinity roles in combat is pretty much the accepted definition. If you don't believe me...check out these sites:
When you try to redefine to redefine the holy trinity to mean that damage, healing, and mitigation simply exist, then you are not only rendering the term useless, you are also going against the definition that just about everyone else uses for no real reason other than to prove that you're right or something.
Also...there is already a term for the thing in games that involves damage, mitigation, and healing...it's called combat.
No it breaks it down to its smile core elements. Lets look at it this way. Dr tells a guys that if he does not stop eating a Mc Donalds he will die. So he stops eating cheap burgers and fries and all the sugar from pop. So he heads down to a high classes restaurant and skips the food the Dr said is killing him and now eats nothing but fine dining. He dies 3 years later. Why? Because it was not cheap burgers and fries but the food he ate had the same fat content.
GW2 may not be WoWs cheap burgers and fries but is still made up of meat and potatoes. Differently proportioned but still the same stuff. If ANet had removed healing I could agree with you. Same with tanking. But the same game mechanics are there, tanking, healing and DPS. Other problem is the classes are not even equal at the same roles. So guild min maxing is going to take place. No longer will they say we need someone to till x,y,z role. They will say what classes can fill them best. Now everyone is healing but we also want a Guardian to be there for that extra boost. Everyone takes turns tanking but we want X class to be there for when he enrages.
I have been reading the top end guilds forums and they have been testing this out and it works. The trinity is not dead, its just dressed differently. And people will be demanding X class for WvW to play y role more oten then its other 3 it can do.
Your analogy makes no sense.
I award you no points.
And may god have mercy on your soul .
Billy Madison aside....you do realize none of your "tanking" scenarios will work because YOU CAN'T CONTROL AGGRO. Even if you make a spec that has the best damage mitigation possible, it seriously won't matter when the mob kills your squishyy elementalist who delibaritely specced glass cannon so he could be "DPS" because you couldn't peel the mob off of him.
Yes you can spec to have more control, yes you can spec to have more DPS or support...but this does NOT make GW2 a trinity game. Trinity means something VERY SPECIFIC. You have to have a tank controlling aggro, DPS doing most of the damage, and a healer keeping the tank up and saving DPS if they get aggro. If you don't have that, it's not a holy trinity game...that simple.
Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.
I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.
Last time I'll explain this lol
If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.
*sigh*
Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.
Can everone Tank? Sure
Can everyone Heal? Sure
Can everyone DPS? Sure
Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.
NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol
You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.
I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.
Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.
At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.
Okay, you can try to define "holy trinity" to mean that healing, damage mitigation, and damage exist, but that is a bad idea. It makes the term completely worthless because EVERY, yes EVERY MMO that involves combat has those concepts. Even UO! Heck, even several fighting games, FPS's and RTS's have those roles.
Second, the definition of holy trinity meaning there are classes that are more or less dedicated to the trinity roles in combat is pretty much the accepted definition. If you don't believe me...check out these sites:
When you try to redefine to redefine the holy trinity to mean that damage, healing, and mitigation simply exist, then you are not only rendering the term useless, you are also going against the definition that just about everyone else uses for no real reason other than to prove that you're right or something.
Also...there is already a term for the thing in games that involves damage, mitigation, and healing...it's called combat.
No it breaks it down to its smile core elements. Lets look at it this way. Dr tells a guys that if he does not stop eating a Mc Donalds he will die. So he stops eating cheap burgers and fries and all the sugar from pop. So he heads down to a high classes restaurant and skips the food the Dr said is killing him and now eats nothing but fine dining. He dies 3 years later. Why? Because it was not cheap burgers and fries but the food he ate had the same fat content.
GW2 may not be WoWs cheap burgers and fries but is still made up of meat and potatoes. Differently proportioned but still the same stuff. If ANet had removed healing I could agree with you. Same with tanking. But the same game mechanics are there, tanking, healing and DPS. Other problem is the classes are not even equal at the same roles. So guild min maxing is going to take place. No longer will they say we need someone to till x,y,z role. They will say what classes can fill them best. Now everyone is healing but we also want a Guardian to be there for that extra boost. Everyone takes turns tanking but we want X class to be there for when he enrages.
I have been reading the top end guilds forums and they have been testing this out and it works. The trinity is not dead, its just dressed differently. And people will be demanding X class for WvW to play y role more oten then its other 3 it can do.
Your analogy makes no sense.
I award you no points.
And may god have mercy on your soul .
Billy Madison aside....you do realize none of your "tanking" scenarios will work because YOU CAN'T CONTROL AGGRO. Even if you make a spec that has the best damage mitigation possible, it seriously won't matter when the mob kills your squishyy elementalist who delibaritely specced glass cannon so he could be "DPS" because you couldn't peel the mob off of him.
Yes you can spec to have more control, yes you can spec to have more DPS or support...but this does NOT make GW2 a trinity game. Trinity means something VERY SPECIFIC. You have to have a tank controlling aggro, DPS doing most of the damage, and a healer keeping the tank up and saving DPS if they get aggro. If you don't have that, it's not a holy trinity game...that simple.
Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.
Do you consider Diablo to be a trinity game? I took turns at taking hits when I played coop in that.
What Marvel vs. Capcom? You definitely trade out your fighters to distribute damage in that game as well.
This is what I'm saying. Your definition of trinity is so broad that it includes just about ANY game that has combat.
Also...GW2's group combat isn't like "Okay, I took three hits, your turn Bob." You just fight, and when the mob targets you, you try to survive. It's not like you can control aggro to "take turns" tanking in any kind of regimented way.
Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.
well thats the point with the trinity... that you have dedicated class for 1 roll. you dont take turns
Billy Madison aside....you do realize none of your "tanking" scenarios will work because YOU CAN'T CONTROL AGGRO. Even if you make a spec that has the best damage mitigation possible, it seriously won't matter when the mob kills your squishyy elementalist who delibaritely specced glass cannon so he could be "DPS" because you couldn't peel the mob off of him.
Yes you can spec to have more control, yes you can spec to have more DPS or support...but this does NOT make GW2 a trinity game. Trinity means something VERY SPECIFIC. You have to have a tank controlling aggro, DPS doing most of the damage, and a healer keeping the tank up and saving DPS if they get aggro. If you don't have that, it's not a holy trinity game...that simple.
Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.
OK Nanfoodle I am going to try this one more time...
Trinity = tripod - you need all three legs to be able to stand.
Each leg in the tripod is a specifc role, in order for the tripod to stand you need a tank "leg" and a heal "leg" and a dps "leg."
You cannot make the tripod stand with 2 tank legs and 1 heal leg, you cannot make the tripod stand with 2 dps legs and a heal leg or with 3 dps legs and no tank leg and no heal leg.
This is the Trinity model as it exists in many/most themepark MMOs. You need a tank, a healer, and a dps.
In GW2, you can complete content with any combination of players. Sure, some might be "better" at healing or taking damage or dishing out damage, but no one type of player is NEEDED for the group to function.
You do NOT need each specific leg of the tripod to stand. As such, you don't need the trinity, as such, there is no trinity because the Trinity is REQUIRED in a game that features the Trinity.
I'm going to have to get my crayons out and starting creating a paint by numbers...
I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.
Last time I'll explain this lol
If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.
*sigh*
Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.
Can everone Tank? Sure
Can everyone Heal? Sure
Can everyone DPS? Sure
Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.
NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol
You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.
I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.
Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.
At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.
Okay, you can try to define "holy trinity" to mean that healing, damage mitigation, and damage exist, but that is a bad idea. It makes the term completely worthless because EVERY, yes EVERY MMO that involves combat has those concepts. Even UO! Heck, even several fighting games, FPS's and RTS's have those roles.
Second, the definition of holy trinity meaning there are classes that are more or less dedicated to the trinity roles in combat is pretty much the accepted definition. If you don't believe me...check out these sites:
When you try to redefine to redefine the holy trinity to mean that damage, healing, and mitigation simply exist, then you are not only rendering the term useless, you are also going against the definition that just about everyone else uses for no real reason other than to prove that you're right or something.
Also...there is already a term for the thing in games that involves damage, mitigation, and healing...it's called combat.
No it breaks it down to its smile core elements. Lets look at it this way. Dr tells a guys that if he does not stop eating a Mc Donalds he will die. So he stops eating cheap burgers and fries and all the sugar from pop. So he heads down to a high classes restaurant and skips the food the Dr said is killing him and now eats nothing but fine dining. He dies 3 years later. Why? Because it was not cheap burgers and fries but the food he ate had the same fat content.
GW2 may not be WoWs cheap burgers and fries but is still made up of meat and potatoes. Differently proportioned but still the same stuff. If ANet had removed healing I could agree with you. Same with tanking. But the same game mechanics are there, tanking, healing and DPS. Other problem is the classes are not even equal at the same roles. So guild min maxing is going to take place. No longer will they say we need someone to till x,y,z role. They will say what classes can fill them best. Now everyone is healing but we also want a Guardian to be there for that extra boost. Everyone takes turns tanking but we want X class to be there for when he enrages.
I have been reading the top end guilds forums and they have been testing this out and it works. The trinity is not dead, its just dressed differently. And people will be demanding X class for WvW to play y role more oten then its other 3 it can do.
Your analogy makes no sense.
I award you no points.
And may god have mercy on your soul .
Billy Madison aside....you do realize none of your "tanking" scenarios will work because YOU CAN'T CONTROL AGGRO. Even if you make a spec that has the best damage mitigation possible, it seriously won't matter when the mob kills your squishyy elementalist who delibaritely specced glass cannon so he could be "DPS" because you couldn't peel the mob off of him.
Yes you can spec to have more control, yes you can spec to have more DPS or support...but this does NOT make GW2 a trinity game. Trinity means something VERY SPECIFIC. You have to have a tank controlling aggro, DPS doing most of the damage, and a healer keeping the tank up and saving DPS if they get aggro. If you don't have that, it's not a holy trinity game...that simple.
Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.
Theres no point in trying to make someone see what they dont want to. Those that feel the trinity is no more will only see it that way. Those of us that feel the trinity is still present will see it that way. Its pointless to continue even talking about it. Your just waisting your time. I do however understand and see BOTH sides and happen to agree with those that believe there IS still a trinity. Comes down to point of view.
Even if you could spec your class out to be a "pure healer" or "pure tank" it wouldn't even matter because there is no aggro control. Trinity combat completely revolves around the tank being able to hold aggro. Take that away, no more trinity combat.
Even in WoW, if you removed the ability for tanks to hold aggro, the game would cease to be a trinity game. It would also be an incredibly broken game, but that's besides the point .
if going by that definition - then Guild Wars already did it in 2005
I see where you're going with this...but tanking in GW1 was still about controlling aggro, even if you couldn't manipulate it directly. A good tank would still strive to constantly keep the mob either hitting him, or away from his groupmates. This was done using different methods though, like being the first one in, raising the armor of your teammates to make them less attractive, or snaring/immobilizing the mobs.
So basically, GW1 had tanking, and it was still about aggro control...it was just harder than it is in other games .
Originally posted by Nanfoodle GW2 may not be WoWs cheap burgers and fries but is still made up of meat and potatoes. Differently proportioned but still the same stuff. If ANet had removed healing I could agree with you. Same with tanking. But the same game mechanics are there, tanking, healing and DPS. Other problem is the classes are not even equal at the same roles. So guild min maxing is going to take place. No longer will they say we need someone to till x,y,z role. They will say what classes can fill them best. Now everyone is healing but we also want a Guardian to be there for that extra boost. Everyone takes turns tanking but we want X class to be there for when he enrages. I have been reading the top end guilds forums and they have been testing this out and it works. The trinity is not dead, its just dressed differently. And people will be demanding X class for WvW to play y role more oten then its other 3 it can do.
I think you have a point, at the moment, with little knowledge beyond the BWE's, I can see a Necro being able to tank for longer than say a Mesmer. The Necro has life stealing abilities and Death Shroud, the Mesmer has nothing similar but has other support skills which includes a combo that can support tanking (passing through a mesmers Chaos Storm applies Chaos Armour). My hope is that Anet are sticking with the vision and nerfs builds that allow one profession to excel at one of the trinity roles. Armour stats and traits will help players in following a play style they enjoy, if they enjoy a traditional trinity role you can guarantee it won't take long for people to find the optimal builds that will play closest to a trinity role. It still doesn't change the fact that you can't out heal damage and there is no taunt, base mechanics just don't support a hard trinity. Going to be interesting to see how it develops.
Of course it's also all down to the guild you're in and the people you hang with, I tend to stay away from hard core number crunching, things like gear score etc all do my head in, I'm interested in playing alongside people who want to be good and have fun, not in to making dungeon encounters only about efficiency, where's the fun in that? *grin*
I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.
Last time I'll explain this lol
If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.
*sigh*
Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.
Can everone Tank? Sure
Can everyone Heal? Sure
Can everyone DPS? Sure
Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.
NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol
You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.
I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.
Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.
At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.
Okay, you can try to define "holy trinity" to mean that healing, damage mitigation, and damage exist, but that is a bad idea. It makes the term completely worthless because EVERY, yes EVERY MMO that involves combat has those concepts. Even UO! Heck, even several fighting games, FPS's and RTS's have those roles.
Second, the definition of holy trinity meaning there are classes that are more or less dedicated to the trinity roles in combat is pretty much the accepted definition. If you don't believe me...check out these sites:
When you try to redefine to redefine the holy trinity to mean that damage, healing, and mitigation simply exist, then you are not only rendering the term useless, you are also going against the definition that just about everyone else uses for no real reason other than to prove that you're right or something.
Also...there is already a term for the thing in games that involves damage, mitigation, and healing...it's called combat.
No it breaks it down to its smile core elements. Lets look at it this way. Dr tells a guys that if he does not stop eating a Mc Donalds he will die. So he stops eating cheap burgers and fries and all the sugar from pop. So he heads down to a high classes restaurant and skips the food the Dr said is killing him and now eats nothing but fine dining. He dies 3 years later. Why? Because it was not cheap burgers and fries but the food he ate had the same fat content.
GW2 may not be WoWs cheap burgers and fries but is still made up of meat and potatoes. Differently proportioned but still the same stuff. If ANet had removed healing I could agree with you. Same with tanking. But the same game mechanics are there, tanking, healing and DPS. Other problem is the classes are not even equal at the same roles. So guild min maxing is going to take place. No longer will they say we need someone to till x,y,z role. They will say what classes can fill them best. Now everyone is healing but we also want a Guardian to be there for that extra boost. Everyone takes turns tanking but we want X class to be there for when he enrages.
I have been reading the top end guilds forums and they have been testing this out and it works. The trinity is not dead, its just dressed differently. And people will be demanding X class for WvW to play y role more oten then its other 3 it can do.
Your analogy makes no sense.
I award you no points.
And may god have mercy on your soul .
Billy Madison aside....you do realize none of your "tanking" scenarios will work because YOU CAN'T CONTROL AGGRO. Even if you make a spec that has the best damage mitigation possible, it seriously won't matter when the mob kills your squishyy elementalist who delibaritely specced glass cannon so he could be "DPS" because you couldn't peel the mob off of him.
Yes you can spec to have more control, yes you can spec to have more DPS or support...but this does NOT make GW2 a trinity game. Trinity means something VERY SPECIFIC. You have to have a tank controlling aggro, DPS doing most of the damage, and a healer keeping the tank up and saving DPS if they get aggro. If you don't have that, it's not a holy trinity game...that simple.
Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.
Do you consider Diablo to be a trinity game? I took turns at taking hits when I played coop in that.
What Marvel vs. Capcom? You definitely trade out your fighters to distribute damage in that game as well.
This is what I'm saying. Your definition of trinity is so broad that it includes just about ANY game that has combat.
Also...GW2's group combat isn't like "Okay, I took three hits, your turn Bob." You just fight, and when the mob targets you, you try to survive. It's not like you can control aggro to "take turns" tanking in any kind of regimented way.
If the mechanic is there, then its a trinity game. To finish content, if you NEED healing, tanking and DPS to complete content, you are a trinity game. Need is the key word there. Not have, but need. There is not a lick of content in GW2 you can do without the trinity. There is no dedicated role for anyone class I agree but the mechanic is there and is needed to be filled to finish content. Other games can have heals, and damage mitigation and not be a trinity game as its not required in a balance of all 3 roles persent to finish content. With GW2 it is and thats where it becomes a trinity game. You need all 3 roles to be working between everyone teamed up to get the job done. Its packaged differently and I love it but the trinity is not dead!
No it breaks it down to its smile core elements. Lets look at it this way. Dr tells a guys that if he does not stop eating a Mc Donalds he will die. So he stops eating cheap burgers and fries and all the sugar from pop. So he heads down to a high classes restaurant and skips the food the Dr said is killing him and now eats nothing but fine dining. He dies 3 years later. Why? Because it was not cheap burgers and fries but the food he ate had the same fat content.
GW2 may not be WoWs cheap burgers and fries but is still made up of meat and potatoes. Differently proportioned but still the same stuff. If ANet had removed healing I could agree with you. Same with tanking. But the same game mechanics are there, tanking, healing and DPS. Other problem is the classes are not even equal at the same roles. So guild min maxing is going to take place. No longer will they say we need someone to till x,y,z role. They will say what classes can fill them best. Now everyone is healing but we also want a Guardian to be there for that extra boost. Everyone takes turns tanking but we want X class to be there for when he enrages.
I have been reading the top end guilds forums and they have been testing this out and it works. The trinity is not dead, its just dressed differently. And people will be demanding X class for WvW to play y role more oten then its other 3 it can do.
Your analogy makes no sense.
I award you no points.
And may god have mercy on your soul .
Billy Madison aside....you do realize none of your "tanking" scenarios will work because YOU CAN'T CONTROL AGGRO. Even if you make a spec that has the best damage mitigation possible, it seriously won't matter when the mob kills your squishyy elementalist who delibaritely specced glass cannon so he could be "DPS" because you couldn't peel the mob off of him.
Yes you can spec to have more control, yes you can spec to have more DPS or support...but this does NOT make GW2 a trinity game. Trinity means something VERY SPECIFIC. You have to have a tank controlling aggro, DPS doing most of the damage, and a healer keeping the tank up and saving DPS if they get aggro. If you don't have that, it's not a holy trinity game...that simple.
Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.
Theres no point in trying to make someone see what they dont want to. Those that feel the trinity is no more will only see it that way. Those of us that feel the trinity is still present will see it that way. Its pointless to continue even talking about it. Your just waisting your time. I do however understand and see BOTH sides and happen to agree with those that believe there IS still a trinity. Comes down to point of view.
Just so you understand why we keep harping on this...
When you guys say that the trinity exists in GW2, it's like saying that 2+2=5 to us. It just seems so painfully, and obviously wrong, that we cannot help but to respond.
And I didn't come to this viewpoint randomly...if you even do a cursory google search for "MMO Holy Trinity" you will find SEVERAL fairly credible websites that define trinity using our definition. In fact, I didn't find a single credible website that defined trinity using the definition of damage, mitigation, and healing simply "existing" in a game. I would challenge you to find one .
Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.
how does one tank with no aggro control?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.
Last time I'll explain this lol
If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.
*sigh*
Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.
Can everone Tank? Sure
Can everyone Heal? Sure
Can everyone DPS? Sure
Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.
NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol
You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.
I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.
Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.
At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.
Okay, you can try to define "holy trinity" to mean that healing, damage mitigation, and damage exist, but that is a bad idea. It makes the term completely worthless because EVERY, yes EVERY MMO that involves combat has those concepts. Even UO! Heck, even several fighting games, FPS's and RTS's have those roles.
Second, the definition of holy trinity meaning there are classes that are more or less dedicated to the trinity roles in combat is pretty much the accepted definition. If you don't believe me...check out these sites:
When you try to redefine to redefine the holy trinity to mean that damage, healing, and mitigation simply exist, then you are not only rendering the term useless, you are also going against the definition that just about everyone else uses for no real reason other than to prove that you're right or something.
Also...there is already a term for the thing in games that involves damage, mitigation, and healing...it's called combat.
No it breaks it down to its smile core elements. Lets look at it this way. Dr tells a guys that if he does not stop eating a Mc Donalds he will die. So he stops eating cheap burgers and fries and all the sugar from pop. So he heads down to a high classes restaurant and skips the food the Dr said is killing him and now eats nothing but fine dining. He dies 3 years later. Why? Because it was not cheap burgers and fries but the food he ate had the same fat content.
GW2 may not be WoWs cheap burgers and fries but is still made up of meat and potatoes. Differently proportioned but still the same stuff. If ANet had removed healing I could agree with you. Same with tanking. But the same game mechanics are there, tanking, healing and DPS. Other problem is the classes are not even equal at the same roles. So guild min maxing is going to take place. No longer will they say we need someone to till x,y,z role. They will say what classes can fill them best. Now everyone is healing but we also want a Guardian to be there for that extra boost. Everyone takes turns tanking but we want X class to be there for when he enrages.
I have been reading the top end guilds forums and they have been testing this out and it works. The trinity is not dead, its just dressed differently. And people will be demanding X class for WvW to play y role more oten then its other 3 it can do.
Your analogy makes no sense.
I award you no points.
And may god have mercy on your soul .
Billy Madison aside....you do realize none of your "tanking" scenarios will work because YOU CAN'T CONTROL AGGRO. Even if you make a spec that has the best damage mitigation possible, it seriously won't matter when the mob kills your squishyy elementalist who delibaritely specced glass cannon so he could be "DPS" because you couldn't peel the mob off of him.
Yes you can spec to have more control, yes you can spec to have more DPS or support...but this does NOT make GW2 a trinity game. Trinity means something VERY SPECIFIC. You have to have a tank controlling aggro, DPS doing most of the damage, and a healer keeping the tank up and saving DPS if they get aggro. If you don't have that, it's not a holy trinity game...that simple.
Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.
Do you consider Diablo to be a trinity game? I took turns at taking hits when I played coop in that.
What Marvel vs. Capcom? You definitely trade out your fighters to distribute damage in that game as well.
This is what I'm saying. Your definition of trinity is so broad that it includes just about ANY game that has combat.
Also...GW2's group combat isn't like "Okay, I took three hits, your turn Bob." You just fight, and when the mob targets you, you try to survive. It's not like you can control aggro to "take turns" tanking in any kind of regimented way.
If the mechanic is there, then its a trinity game. To finish content, if you NEED healing, tanking and DPS to complete content, you are a trinity game. Need is the key word there. Not have, but need. There is not a lick of content in GW2 you can do without the trinity. There is no dedicated role for anyone class I agree but the mechanic is there and is needed to be filled to finish content. Other games can have heals, and damage mitigation and not be a trinity game as its not required in a balance of all 3 roles persent to finish content. With GW2 it is and thats where it becomes a trinity game. You need all 3 roles to be working between everyone teamed up to get the job done. Its packaged differently and I love it but the trinity is not dead!
So Halo is a trinity game?
In Halo...
You have to duck behind cover and heal your shield or you cannot finish content.
You have to inflict damage on the covenant or you cannot finish content.
You have to absorb damage with your shield or you cannot finish content.
Comments
Which class can tank?!?!?!!?!? lol, I just wanted to know. Because the AI disagree unfortunately.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
you totally missed the point.... im saying that there is no "tanks"
I agreed lol.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Here is how it will work, happened with WoW and add ons. Guilds find what classes do what best in combo with what classes. They will get a 5-15% boots from doing so, so other guilds will follow suit to be able to keep up. Now content is 5-15% easier then it should be so ANet needs to take it up a notch to keep things fun and hard. Now everyone really needs to follow suit. Only way to stop this is if ANet changes the classes to make everyone equal at each area of the game. A Gaurdian HoT pasive heals are just as good as a Elementalist. Guardian sheilds for tanking are equal to.... so on and so forth. It can only go 2 ways.
This was the same for WoW and add ons. Guilds were killing content so Blizzard could remove add ons or make content harder and force everyone to use add ons. They went with forcing everyone to use add ons. ANet is in the same boat with roles. Make everyone equal or min maxing on what class does what role better will be the way. Trinity is not dead. Wait 6 months and see. This one is in ANets hands.
Okay, you can try to define "holy trinity" to mean that healing, damage mitigation, and damage exist, but that is a bad idea. It makes the term completely worthless because EVERY, yes EVERY MMO that involves combat has those concepts. Even UO! Heck, even several fighting games, FPS's and RTS's have those roles.
Second, the definition of holy trinity meaning there are classes that are more or less dedicated to the trinity roles in combat is pretty much the accepted definition. If you don't believe me...check out these sites:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132607/rethinking_the_trinity_of_mmo_.php?print=1
http://keithengel.hubpages.com/hub/Cause-of-MMO-Stagnation-The-Holy-Trinity-of-the-MMO
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/5557
http://surlygamer.net/2012/04/22/mmo-evolution-life-after-the-holy-trinity/
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/holy-trinity-outdated/
When you try to redefine the holy trinity to mean that damage, healing, and mitigation simply exist, then you are not only rendering the term useless, you are also going against the definition that just about everyone else uses for no real reason other than to prove that you're right or something.
Also...there is already a term for the thing in games that involves damage, mitigation, and healing...it's called combat.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Trinity is dead - Unlike WoW and Rift, for example - 10 skills can only be used and no mods of any kind. One would need more skills to do what you are proposing, since one will be a self heal - 4 will be tied to your weapons that leave 4 and one elite. I doubt you could heal or prot, or tank like you can in Rift, etc. Also the mobs move more in GW2 than they do in any other game - they do not sit still.
You are missing the point.
Even if you could spec your class out to be a "pure healer" or "pure tank" it wouldn't even matter because there is no aggro control. Trinity combat completely revolves around the tank being able to hold aggro. Take that away, no more trinity combat.
Even in WoW, if you removed the ability for tanks to hold aggro, the game would cease to be a trinity game. It would also be an incredibly broken game, but that's besides the point
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
if going by that definition - then Guild Wars already did it in 2005
EQ2 fan sites
No it breaks it down to its small core elements. Lets look at it this way. Dr tells a guys that if he does not stop eating a Mc Donalds he will die. So he stops eating cheap burgers and fries and all the sugar from pop. So he heads down to a high classes restaurant and skips the food the Dr said is killing him and now eats nothing but fine dining. He dies 3 years later. Why? Because it was not cheap burgers and fries but the food he ate had the same fat content.
GW2 may not be WoWs cheap burgers and fries but is still made up of meat and potatoes. Differently proportioned but still the same stuff. If ANet had removed healing I could agree with you. Same with tanking. But the same game mechanics are there, tanking, healing and DPS. Other problem is the classes are not even equal at the same roles. So guild min maxing is going to take place. No longer will they say we need someone to till x,y,z role. They will say what classes can fill them best. Now everyone is healing but we also want a Guardian to be there for that extra boost. Everyone takes turns tanking but we want X class to be there for when he enrages.
I have been reading the top end guilds forums and they have been testing this out and it works. The trinity is not dead, its just dressed differently. And people will be demanding X class for WvW to play y role more oten then its other 3 it can do.
Your analogy makes no sense.
I award you no points.
And may god have mercy on your soul
.
Billy Madison aside....you do realize none of your "tanking" scenarios will work because YOU CAN'T CONTROL AGGRO. Even if you make a spec that has the best damage mitigation possible, it seriously won't matter when the mob kills your squishyy elementalist who delibaritely specced glass cannon so he could be "DPS" because you couldn't peel the mob off of him.
Yes you can spec to have more control, yes you can spec to have more DPS or support...but this does NOT make GW2 a trinity game. Trinity means something VERY SPECIFIC. You have to have a tank controlling aggro, DPS doing most of the damage, and a healer keeping the tank up and saving DPS if they get aggro. If you don't have that, it's not a holy trinity game...that simple.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.
Do you consider Diablo to be a trinity game? I took turns at taking hits when I played coop in that.
What Marvel vs. Capcom? You definitely trade out your fighters to distribute damage in that game as well.
This is what I'm saying. Your definition of trinity is so broad that it includes just about ANY game that has combat.
Also...GW2's group combat isn't like "Okay, I took three hits, your turn Bob." You just fight, and when the mob targets you, you try to survive. It's not like you can control aggro to "take turns" tanking in any kind of regimented way.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
well thats the point with the trinity... that you have dedicated class for 1 roll. you dont take turns
OK Nanfoodle I am going to try this one more time...
Trinity = tripod - you need all three legs to be able to stand.
Each leg in the tripod is a specifc role, in order for the tripod to stand you need a tank "leg" and a heal "leg" and a dps "leg."
You cannot make the tripod stand with 2 tank legs and 1 heal leg, you cannot make the tripod stand with 2 dps legs and a heal leg or with 3 dps legs and no tank leg and no heal leg.
This is the Trinity model as it exists in many/most themepark MMOs. You need a tank, a healer, and a dps.
In GW2, you can complete content with any combination of players. Sure, some might be "better" at healing or taking damage or dishing out damage, but no one type of player is NEEDED for the group to function.
You do NOT need each specific leg of the tripod to stand. As such, you don't need the trinity, as such, there is no trinity because the Trinity is REQUIRED in a game that features the Trinity.
I'm going to have to get my crayons out and starting creating a paint by numbers...
Some people are taking the extreme view that because you take a hit you are now the tank.
Without dedicated roles, it is just combat.
Theres no point in trying to make someone see what they dont want to. Those that feel the trinity is no more will only see it that way. Those of us that feel the trinity is still present will see it that way. Its pointless to continue even talking about it. Your just waisting your time. I do however understand and see BOTH sides and happen to agree with those that believe there IS still a trinity. Comes down to point of view.
I see where you're going with this...but tanking in GW1 was still about controlling aggro, even if you couldn't manipulate it directly. A good tank would still strive to constantly keep the mob either hitting him, or away from his groupmates. This was done using different methods though, like being the first one in, raising the armor of your teammates to make them less attractive, or snaring/immobilizing the mobs.
So basically, GW1 had tanking, and it was still about aggro control...it was just harder than it is in other games
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Bodyblocking had to a lot with "tanking" in GW as well. I found that the best tanks were a necros minions.
I think you have a point, at the moment, with little knowledge beyond the BWE's, I can see a Necro being able to tank for longer than say a Mesmer. The Necro has life stealing abilities and Death Shroud, the Mesmer has nothing similar but has other support skills which includes a combo that can support tanking (passing through a mesmers Chaos Storm applies Chaos Armour). My hope is that Anet are sticking with the vision and nerfs builds that allow one profession to excel at one of the trinity roles. Armour stats and traits will help players in following a play style they enjoy, if they enjoy a traditional trinity role you can guarantee it won't take long for people to find the optimal builds that will play closest to a trinity role. It still doesn't change the fact that you can't out heal damage and there is no taunt, base mechanics just don't support a hard trinity. Going to be interesting to see how it develops.
Of course it's also all down to the guild you're in and the people you hang with, I tend to stay away from hard core number crunching, things like gear score etc all do my head in, I'm interested in playing alongside people who want to be good and have fun, not in to making dungeon encounters only about efficiency, where's the fun in that? *grin*
If the mechanic is there, then its a trinity game. To finish content, if you NEED healing, tanking and DPS to complete content, you are a trinity game. Need is the key word there. Not have, but need. There is not a lick of content in GW2 you can do without the trinity. There is no dedicated role for anyone class I agree but the mechanic is there and is needed to be filled to finish content. Other games can have heals, and damage mitigation and not be a trinity game as its not required in a balance of all 3 roles persent to finish content. With GW2 it is and thats where it becomes a trinity game. You need all 3 roles to be working between everyone teamed up to get the job done. Its packaged differently and I love it but the trinity is not dead!
Just so you understand why we keep harping on this...
When you guys say that the trinity exists in GW2, it's like saying that 2+2=5 to us. It just seems so painfully, and obviously wrong, that we cannot help but to respond.
And I didn't come to this viewpoint randomly...if you even do a cursory google search for "MMO Holy Trinity" you will find SEVERAL fairly credible websites that define trinity using our definition. In fact, I didn't find a single credible website that defined trinity using the definition of damage, mitigation, and healing simply "existing" in a game. I would challenge you to find one
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
how does one tank with no aggro control?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
So Halo is a trinity game?
In Halo...
You have to duck behind cover and heal your shield or you cannot finish content.
You have to inflict damage on the covenant or you cannot finish content.
You have to absorb damage with your shield or you cannot finish content.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?