Does anybody notice mainly with GW 2 people who say it's exactly like another game, they start off by listing the features that make the two games different from each other and then end with calling it the same?
What you have to understand is that for them, those things are pretty much the same as any other game, because they make zero difference to their playstyle and the way they play MMOGs. For me, those things are revolutionary because they directly address my playstyle in a way that no other MMOG to date has.
I'm all for people praising GW2, it's a well made MMO. But there is just about nothing in it that's revolutionary, as almost all of its ideas have been done before in other games, usually in a better capacity.
I think the only thing they can claim that makes them TRULY stand out on an individual level, is the dynamic events, which are better made versions of WAR's public quests, which are just tweaked versions of the events in TR, UO, and AC...
From your perspective, i'm sure this is true. From my perspective, it's truly revolutionary - not because of the graphics, or the specific combat dynamics, or the dynamic events, or the informal grouping, or the WvWvW, or the lack of a trinity, but because of something you really can't see on the surface. You have to look at the total structure, the fundamental design to see how it is deeply different than any other MMOG. Like I said, it is the first (to my knowledge) MMORPG that fully commits its core design to the casual player, and doesn't just toss scraps to us and expect us to find ways on our own to enjoy a game structured around a different playstyle.
Instead of those things being "thrown in" to dress up a game that is still fundamentally committed to the hardcore/uberguild customer base, in GW2 those things are the product (even if not completely original) of a core design philosophy, and therein lies the GW2 revolution, as their ad says, even if many players cannot see it because it means nothing to their particluar playstyle.
Er, the majority of MMOs on the markets these days are aimed directly at the casual player. Especially WoW. I'd say its a lot more casual than GW2.
Maybe GW2 is the first casual game with good game design behind it though.
I'm all for people praising GW2, it's a well made MMO. But there is just about nothing in it that's revolutionary, as almost all of its ideas have been done before in other games, usually in a better capacity.
Lots of good info there. I'm not sure what videos you are referring to where people are contradicting themselves, so I cannot comment on that. I had no issues with performance with a 2nd gen i-5, 8 Gb ram, and 560ti with settings at max.
Cheers!
Thanks for the link. I've read the entire thing just now (skipped some details and the movie made by devs, since they always exaggerate their own achievements).
Everything people say here sounds familiar, but since they are not claiming that this is exclusive for this game it's ok. I can only hope that maybe some of those features are designed better than in previous games I've played.
As for Rift, I have no idea what happened, but after my first month passed, I felt no need to buy another month. There are 3 things that can keep me in game:
1. Story - since plot ends fast in mmorpg's (if there ever is one) I think lore is the thing that can keep me in. If the world is interesting I will play longer.
2. Fun - PvE content ends fast even if I play casually, so all that is left is either repeating things, which is no fun, or PvP. So I think if PvP is well done, it will keep me playing.
3. Feeling of self accomplishment - nearly impossible in today's mmorpg's. Everything is easy, everyone looks badass since 1 lvl, no penalties, no loosing, no game basically, but I got over it a while ago.
So one or all of those things must have been reason I didn't played longer.
That is what I'm affraid of in Guild Wars 2. They say that content scales with levels, you do end game from the beginning, you look cool from start. If I won't feel that I'm becoming more powerfull while I progress and my looks and behavior also won't show this, it won't feel like rpg and biggest positive for many people, will be a big let down for me.
Some of you don't understand my point. I've read all the praising about the game, all wiki's and all glory threads. Also all negative feedback. I just didn't find them informative at all. Because many people claim this game is very good and different, but their arguments say that it doesn't really have anything new or innovative in it. So I want to know what causes people to think that way. There must be some "magic" in this game. Wether I buy it or not, I can't play it until it's released so maybe I will find something out.
Does anybody notice mainly with GW 2 people who say it's exactly like another game, they start off by listing the features that make the two games different from each other and then end with calling it the same?
Ever notice the non-GW2 people that list 25 reasons why the game is horrible, and every one of them applies to their chosen game as well? :P
Sorry, had to take that shot. There's a note of truth in what each of us say though.
In all honesty, there is probably nothing about GW2 that is 100% unique, excepting possibly the lack of "hard" roles (Yes,TSW has those, they just don't have classes), and the "weapons determining skills". What they've done is taken things they as a development team liked about past games, tweaked them a little, and released them as improvements. Which is what every MMO since the second one made has done. And that's cool. If I enjoy gameplay it doesn't have to be 100% original. Also, nothing's original.
Yea I never said being different was being better, I like how you thought that phase me.
Stop assuming everyone who likes GW 2 think it's perfect or Godly.
But it is true the stuff it does different or collectively is always brought up then at the end is stated to be the same.
TSW and GW2 are actually games that do stuff differently from the norm you actually stated that and at the same time trying to say it's the same. 100, 50, 25, 5% original wtf? That mean a percentage of it is original?
Like I said the only thing I can give you guys is that the feeling may be the same but in the end that's subjective.
Some things in GW2 and TSW are truely original unfortunately. Also things that improve should be different from the original iteration correct?
Little shit like execution and choices can indeed make a difference in both feeling and look. SOmetimes by adding features collectively and making them play out together can give complete different results. I'm just tired of "It's not different except..." like really?
I mean we can get into the knitty gritty but all we are going to do is list features that are different from other MMOs, and then you are going to end by saying it's not original but is done differently.
A quest is a quest, but the whole little bar in GW 2 is different, why? Becuase well shit, you can choose how to complete the heart quest how you want. Kill X isn't an option if someone feels that is what they want to complete the quest then they can. It may be better it may not but feak the fact that just regular heart quest give you that is indeed different.
DE's scale, the scaling feature makes everything less trivial even the story scales with people, that's a difference that it may be unfortunate for you but it makes a difference it's just how it is. It may or may not be better.
Downmechanic, it may or may not be better but hell it adds a layer to combat unfortunately for you that is.
I could keep going, but I'm sure someone had this mechanic but done it differently, I.E Warhammer PQ and Rifts compared to DE's all ANET did was take those things a step further, which would be making it different. Hell the focus is DE's they aren't the side mechanic building a game around those your bound to end up with different results.
GW 2 isn't perfect and I can accept if what it did differently isn't better to people, but it in fact does things differently being more than 2 gimmicks differently. People may can't stand that but it is what it is. TSW is tha same way IMO. Really just adding what games do differently all in one game you are bound to get different outcomes. That's what Funcom and ANET pretty much did and then added in their own features, if we want to say they purposely copied [everone] lol.
Edited: It's like we can all list features and say each feature came from each game but it's not like one game done it all like GW 2 this may or may not better but that's how it is. Unless we want to lie on purpose, and start acting and pretending we can make shit up and say yes a game has done this before.
GW2 and TSW have a lot of gimmicks that I think draw people in different ways, to be honest that in it self make those two games different and make them different from games that throw a few gimmicks that attract people the same way. They throw in mybe 1 or 2 gimmicks and put all effort around those gimmicks. Then leave the rest of the game "the same" it's usually majority of the game.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
1. Story - since plot ends fast in mmorpg's (if there ever is one) I think lore is the thing that can keep me in. If the world is interesting I will play longer.
2. Fun - PvE content ends fast even if I play casually, so all that is left is either repeating things, which is no fun, or PvP. So I think if PvP is well done, it will keep me playing.
3. Feeling of self accomplishment - nearly impossible in today's mmorpg's. Everything is easy, everyone looks badass since 1 lvl, no penalties, no loosing, no game basically, but I got over it a while ago.
So one or all of those things must have been reason I didn't played longer.
That is what I'm affraid of in Guild Wars 2. They say that content scales with levels, you do end game from the beginning, you look cool from start. If I won't feel that I'm becoming more powerfull while I progress and my looks and behavior also won't show this, it won't feel like rpg and biggest positive for many people, will be a big let down for me.
Well...
1. I personally enjoy GW's lore; it was the thing I liked most about GW1. Well, that and the headless bone chickens. HOURS of fun!.
2. From a PvE perspective, the hope is that they will keep introducing new content to keep us interested. That's a wait and see. As to PvP...i spent a weekend doing WvW and felt I could definitely do that for months.
I take issue with two statements that I heard from a lot of people here, both of which you cited.
A) "You do end game from the beginning": Yes and no. There's no traditional daily grind/raiding here, so teh content you do at 1 and at 80 is similar. However, there's a difference in scale. At level 1 you're fighting off bandits and such; at 80 you're taking part in an all-out invasion of Orr. It's not like a traditional MMO where the gameplay focus completely shifts at level cap, but that's not to say that the gameplay at 1 and 80 is equally epic in nature.
"You look cool from the start": I will say this: you look BETTER at the start. GW2's starting armor generally looks cooler than anything I've seen mid or even late-game in WoW. However, there is a noticeable difference between the looks of starter and "endgame" gear in terms of "badassness".
Those two factors added in, there is a sense of progression to be had. It's a different sort than in other MMOs, and it's not for everyone. Whether it's for you is up to you.
Um...dude? I think we're on the same side. I actually enjoy GW2, I think it's a great game and the few flaws aren't worrisome to me.
What I said about the gam being unique was not actually an insult or a criticism. It's a compliment. I LIKE what they did. I acknowledge that in essence it's not 100% unique; but what is? The point is "do you enjoy it?" I do. So, yeah.
If I say it's not 100% unique it's because I strive for honesty. I look at the game for what it is, not what the rose-colored glasses of some fans or the....what's the opposite of rose? Poop? colored glasses of its worst detractors might say. I see the whole picture for what it does great, and what it does not, and find it to be an excellent game. That's all.
Um...dude? I think we're on the same side. I actually enjoy GW2, I think it's a great game and the few flaws aren't worrisome to me.
What I said about the gam being unique was not actually an insult or a criticism. It's a compliment. I LIKE what they did. I acknowledge that in essence it's not 100% unique; but what is? The point is "do you enjoy it?" I do. So, yeah.
If I say it's not 100% unique it's because I strive for honesty. I look at the game for what it is, not what the rose-colored glasses of some fans or the....what's the opposite of rose? Poop? colored glasses of its worst detractors might say. I see the whole picture for what it does great, and what it does not, and find it to be an excellent game. That's all.
I didn't even realize that, but any way atleast you made me elaborate lol sheesh.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Some of you don't understand my point. I've read all the praising about the game, all wiki's and all glory threads. Also all negative feedback. I just didn't find them informative at all. Because many people claim this game is very good and different, but their arguments say that it doesn't really have anything new or innovative in it. So I want to know what causes people to think that way. There must be some "magic" in this game. Wether I buy it or not, I can't play it until it's released so maybe I will find something out.
Well, it is indeniably different from your traditional WoW/EQ clone (= 80% of the mmo market) in many core design implementations. Of course you can nitpick to hell and say "egg = chicken = egg", but we all know that. So the consensus is to judge on what we are used to play in every mmo, and compare the whole GW2 experience.
Anybody who played it will say that at least it's not yet another wow clone, in whatever feature of the game, which is by itself a good and big step forward.
Personally, I felt that "magic" you're talking about just by reading that wiki I linked in previous post. Just by reading the skill effects, the conditions, the game rules, the pve mechanics ... and verifying that it's been implemented 1:1 with videos, I knew this game will be good. Then I played, and theory was verified.
If you still think, after carefully reading the *whole* wiki, after pulling strings between different gamedesign elements, after watching videos, if after all this you still think there's "nothing new or refreshing", then either you didn't look properly, either you're super biased
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
Honestly I was in the same boat as you OP, luckily after doing some research and getting some great responses here I found out some real positives as well. However I will not quote you all the features of the game, you can simply see for yourself by going to www.guildwars2.com
Instead I will tell you my favourite 2 features and the rest is part of the package. WvWvW I think is a great feature for end game content. Although I do not know how beneficial it will be to hold keeps in general, I look forward to keeping them anyway rofl. The second and arguably the most important feature to me is public quests aka dynamic events. DE's were a big pull for me, because I loved the idea of them when they first originated with WAR. It feels that Arena net built on their original design and improved them. Hopefully they work well and are fun from 1 - 80, but only time will tell.
I assume you already know what World vs World vs World and Dynamic Events are so I won't bore you with the details, unless of course you don't really know. In which case I am sure someone here will explain it to you in better and in more detail than I.
So that is my reasoning behind it, well that and I like the fact that I don't have to deal with mana bars. And the classes are built in such a way where they put a new interesting spin on overused classes. Except for the new classes that are relatively new to MMO's, which are the Mesmer and Engineer.
Anyway you find fun and entertainment in any game, you just have to look at it with an open mind.
Hope this helped.
(P.S. Don't mind the spelling and grammar, I am only functioning at 50% because I have yet to drink my cup o jo)
I would take my cruddy unused console games to Gamestop, and trade them all in for this game. Even if you get $5 a game, it is $5 towards something worth purchasing, and not having setting on a shelf.
Then if you are living with your mom and she says "no, no more XBox games, you don't even play them", you need to listen to her for once. Same goes if you are married and the wife says "but there are only half of box of diapers left'. This is a one time entertainement investment. Buy the game and live, learn, and love...then kill your friends.
edit:sp
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Er, the majority of MMOs on the markets these days are aimed directly at the casual player. Especially WoW. I'd say its a lot more casual than GW2.
Perhaps you and I have a different understanding of what "casual" means. I'm talking about people that can commit only partial attention to an MMOG for about 5-20 hours a week, and generally no more than an hour or so at a time at the keyboard without an interruption. Because a game offers content that casuals can enjoy doesn't mean the game is fundamentally designed to suit that playstyle. If a game offers top power/gear content only to the powergamer playstyle, then it is hardly "aimed" at casuals. It's still "aimed" at hardcore players, it just tries to "also appeal" to as many casuals as it can without sacrificing the superiority of hardcore content.
GW2, IMO, is the first MMOG fundamentally designed with the casual playstyle in mind.
Some of you don't understand my point. I've read all the praising about the game, all wiki's and all glory threads. Also all negative feedback. I just didn't find them informative at all. Because many people claim this game is very good and different, but their arguments say that it doesn't really have anything new or innovative in it. So I want to know what causes people to think that way. There must be some "magic" in this game. Wether I buy it or not, I can't play it until it's released so maybe I will find something out.
*snip*
If you still think, after carefully reading the *whole* wiki, after pulling strings between different gamedesign elements, after watching videos, if after all this you still think there's "nothing new or refreshing", then either you didn't look properly, either you're super biased
What I don't understand, is how someone who is apparently not interested in a game would spend the time to read 'all of the information available on the internet'. There's a ton of info on the game, tons of videos for & against the game. It's not something you could do quickly, and is a bit like doing a college thesis on something you care nothing about, and that you know ahead of time you'll get no credit for doing. It just seems odd.
For those genuinely on the fence, though, it really comes down to what you are looking for out of a new game. GW2 is a good game, but ultimately if what you are really looking for is something else, it doesn't matter how good GW2 is. You'll still be expecting something different.
1. Story - since plot ends fast in mmorpg's (if there ever is one) I think lore is the thing that can keep me in. If the world is interesting I will play longer.
2. Fun - PvE content ends fast even if I play casually, so all that is left is either repeating things, which is no fun, or PvP. So I think if PvP is well done, it will keep me playing.
3. Feeling of self accomplishment - nearly impossible in today's mmorpg's. Everything is easy, everyone looks badass since 1 lvl, no penalties, no loosing, no game basically, but I got over it a while ago.
So one or all of those things must have been reason I didn't played longer.
That is what I'm affraid of in Guild Wars 2. They say that content scales with levels, you do end game from the beginning, you look cool from start. If I won't feel that I'm becoming more powerfull while I progress and my looks and behavior also won't show this, it won't feel like rpg and biggest positive for many people, will be a big let down for me.
Well...
1. I personally enjoy GW's lore; it was the thing I liked most about GW1. Well, that and the headless bone chickens. HOURS of fun!.
2. From a PvE perspective, the hope is that they will keep introducing new content to keep us interested. That's a wait and see. As to PvP...i spent a weekend doing WvW and felt I could definitely do that for months.
I take issue with two statements that I heard from a lot of people here, both of which you cited.
A) "You do end game from the beginning": Yes and no. There's no traditional daily grind/raiding here, so teh content you do at 1 and at 80 is similar. However, there's a difference in scale. At level 1 you're fighting off bandits and such; at 80 you're taking part in an all-out invasion of Orr. It's not like a traditional MMO where the gameplay focus completely shifts at level cap, but that's not to say that the gameplay at 1 and 80 is equally epic in nature.
"You look cool from the start": I will say this: you look BETTER at the start. GW2's starting armor generally looks cooler than anything I've seen mid or even late-game in WoW. However, there is a noticeable difference between the looks of starter and "endgame" gear in terms of "badassness".
Those two factors added in, there is a sense of progression to be had. It's a different sort than in other MMOs, and it's not for everyone. Whether it's for you is up to you.
I think that might be good enough for me. Thanks for clearing this up for me.
The thing that I also noticed is that most people that praise this game seem to be very into rp part of mmorpg and I like that. It may turn out to be a good community. I'm not talking about guys thinking they are actually character in game, but at least being polite and helpful and not seing game in numbers and fastest algorithms.
I think I'm convinced to check it out. Of course I didn't read the whole wiki. I just read what I thought was most important, I will read more later.
Er, the majority of MMOs on the markets these days are aimed directly at the casual player. Especially WoW. I'd say its a lot more casual than GW2.
Perhaps you and I have a different understanding of what "casual" means. I'm talking about people that can commit only partial attention to an MMOG for about 5-20 hours a week, and generally no more than an hour or so at a time at the keyboard without an interruption. Because a game offers content that casuals can enjoy doesn't mean the game is fundamentally designed to suit that playstyle.
Except that it is... everything in WoW is aimed at the casual audience. Even the hardest raids and most exclusive items are easier to do than the majority of earlier MMOs. Everything from the simple game design, to the lack of risk vs reward, to the fact that almost all the content is solo questing... There's little to no hardcore content in WoW.
I think the easiest way to figure out whether this game is worthwhile for you is to understand what your looking for first. Breakdown what you feel is important in a game, and check if GW2 matches those personal expectations. If you have already taken a look at the site and seen the features you should already have your answer. We cannot make the decision for you as we all have different reasons for wanting to play this game.
Er, the majority of MMOs on the markets these days are aimed directly at the casual player. Especially WoW. I'd say its a lot more casual than GW2.
Perhaps you and I have a different understanding of what "casual" means. I'm talking about people that can commit only partial attention to an MMOG for about 5-20 hours a week, and generally no more than an hour or so at a time at the keyboard without an interruption. Because a game offers content that casuals can enjoy doesn't mean the game is fundamentally designed to suit that playstyle.
Except that it is... everything in WoW is aimed at the casual audience. Even the hardest raids and most exclusive items are easier to do than the majority of earlier MMOs. Everything from the simple game design, to the lack of risk vs reward, to the fact that almost all the content is solo questing... There's little to no hardcore content in WoW.
You and I have a completely different definition of what "casual" means. By my definition, casuals do not do raids in WoW, period.
If framed strictly by mechanics I would say its the organic feel of the game that makes it stand out. By this I mean that from the time you hit "create" you have very little, if any, restrictions on you and a lot of the BS you never realized was a big deal is gone.
In character creation you're not held to what role you want to play in a group. Yes, some classes have slightly better regeneration or shielding abilities but these are not drastic and are trait specified anyways if you want them.
When you get out into the world you realize your quest box area is adding and erasing objectives as you enter certain areas. You're not receiving 10 different orders and ignoring everything between A&B. When a DE pops up you can go engage in that and come back to what you were doing or head elsewhere. All the while doing things with others like you were in a group but credited seperately.
Healing "downed" and defeated players adds a nice dynamic, especially in veteran mob fights. You can even revive NPCs which can be part of an areas objective.
The combat system may be looked at as simple due to only 10 skills shown at one time but each profession has its own mechanics and additional to that the weapon and trait choices make it a lot deeper than some realize.
Regarding GW I have this feeling that there will be a large world with castles, caves and other points of interest. The thing is, why would I go search that cave when I am 100% sure there is nothing inside that will make me stronger in any way? Why would I be looking for that cave in the first place? What drives me and probably many other players to explore the world is the fact that there might be some treasure hidden in that world. In GW's world, there is no treasure.
I agree that in the short run, it will be fun. However, when people hit max level, get all skills and the gear cap and realize that in terms of their character progression it is basically it and that now they can only play WvWvW or do PVE for reasons such as achievements, titles and cosmetic gear, most of them will lose interest. By removing vertical progression completely, the game becomes massive fantasy first person siege simulator. Even some of the GW fans compare the game to Call of Duty or CS rather than MMORPG.
I agree that from your perspective, that is what GW2 looks like. I don't play MMOGs for the same reasons you do. I don't define "treasure" as strictly "that which makes my character more powerful". My motivation for playing cannot be boiled down to "becoming more powerful" in terms of my character.
Yes, for you, the lack of vertical progression would turn the game into nothing more a first-person siege simulator; for me, it turns the game into an opportunity to RP and enjoy some good times with friends without that constant, nagging sensation that we're "wasting time" because there's a never-ending hamster treadmill over there beckoning us towards virtual items with bigger numbers on them.
You may be right; GW2 might see an exodus of players after a short time. We'll see.
Some of you don't understand my point. I've read all the praising about the game, all wiki's and all glory threads. Also all negative feedback. I just didn't find them informative at all. Because many people claim this game is very good and different, but their arguments say that it doesn't really have anything new or innovative in it. So I want to know what causes people to think that way. There must be some "magic" in this game. Wether I buy it or not, I can't play it until it's released so maybe I will find something out.
*snip*
If you still think, after carefully reading the *whole* wiki, after pulling strings between different gamedesign elements, after watching videos, if after all this you still think there's "nothing new or refreshing", then either you didn't look properly, either you're super biased
What I don't understand, is how someone who is apparently not interested in a game would spend the time to read 'all of the information available on the internet'. There's a ton of info on the game, tons of videos for & against the game. It's not something you could do quickly, and is a bit like doing a college thesis on something you care nothing about, and that you know ahead of time you'll get no credit for doing. It just seems odd.
For those genuinely on the fence, though, it really comes down to what you are looking for out of a new game. GW2 is a good game, but ultimately if what you are really looking for is something else, it doesn't matter how good GW2 is. You'll still be expecting something different.
lol, let me guess : because you can't find if something is interesting without gathering at least core informations about it ?
Begging for a solution about the interest one should have in something while not wanting to read infos about it is paradoxal and stupid, imo. It's just common sense.
And why asking for people to copy paste the wiki in a thread when every answer to any question is already in said wiki ... ? (Except to make some unnecessary noise about how much he's not interested ?)
Plus, that wiki is not difficult to read at all, it's stripped down to core infos, with ingame-HUD-like presentations, etc. Refusing to read it is plain laziness and proportionally doesn't deserve any human effort to summarize it. (summarize something that is already summarized, jeez ! )
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If ANet does not engage it's players by expanding the storyline or changing out events/points of interest within six months then yes I expect the playerbase to be lower on the "RPG/Adventure" side. I'm pretty sure they realize this as well though. This is an MMO after all.
But I don't see any way around the problem with exhausting content. Players exhaust content at an ABSURD rate. We're talking hundreds or thousands of times faster than it takes to create content. So, content will ALWAYS be exhausted.
Yeah, GW2 is a big game - but it's not unlike other big games. In 3-6 months - the content will be totally exhausted by all but the slowest players.
By then, they will need something to sustain interest - or players will not be buying things in their crappy item shop - and the game will be all but dead until the first expansion.
That's not how you provide a long-term experience. You can't expect players to sustain themselves by re-visiting old content over and over - simply because you scale it. The game needs to EVOLVE.
You need something more for the players to stay interested and keeping the community alive.
Gear skins? That's not good enough is it? Who would want to stay for months just to get a superficial upgrade? I just can't see it.
Oh, the grind is horrible - and we don't want that either.
Nah, we need player-driven content under a reasonable and strong design and clever system limitations. But almost no game has managed to do that correclty. EVE Online is perhaps the only one with a truly significant player-driven aspect like this, that's arguably a big success.
I'm not so sure about the player-driven content idea. Essentially that's a hark back to the sandbox days but the modern MMO crowd are generally dicks, (as expressed with the COH player stuff), or just generally not capable of making anything that isn't self indulgent pap. Maybe giving players the tools to change the dynamics of the game is the way to go, but therein lies another problem if players without the, 'power', get annoyed and quit, (i.e. the toothless TERA political system), and as another poster said that inevitably leads to a smaller playerbase and no developers are interested in that road.
I do agree though that scaled content does not equal long term interest. It's essentially the same as having a 'heroic' mode or 'hard' mode in a dungeon for WOW. WOW kept that going with the gear carrot, killing the same stuff but now it's a bit harder is not fun long term. What does make my laugh is GW2 fans will say, 'there's no grind!', in this game, but the end game seems to be setup to redo everything you've just done in the game, but it's more difficult now, for some gear skins.
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Er, the majority of MMOs on the markets these days are aimed directly at the casual player. Especially WoW. I'd say its a lot more casual than GW2.
Maybe GW2 is the first casual game with good game design behind it though.
@OP, and by extent anybody who creates yet another thread asking to be convinced about GW2 "not being crap" :
>>>>>>> http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Main_Page <<<<<<<
Please educate yourself first, ask questions later.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
Can you please list all those MMOs?
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Thanks for the link. I've read the entire thing just now (skipped some details and the movie made by devs, since they always exaggerate their own achievements).
Everything people say here sounds familiar, but since they are not claiming that this is exclusive for this game it's ok. I can only hope that maybe some of those features are designed better than in previous games I've played.
As for Rift, I have no idea what happened, but after my first month passed, I felt no need to buy another month. There are 3 things that can keep me in game:
1. Story - since plot ends fast in mmorpg's (if there ever is one) I think lore is the thing that can keep me in. If the world is interesting I will play longer.
2. Fun - PvE content ends fast even if I play casually, so all that is left is either repeating things, which is no fun, or PvP. So I think if PvP is well done, it will keep me playing.
3. Feeling of self accomplishment - nearly impossible in today's mmorpg's. Everything is easy, everyone looks badass since 1 lvl, no penalties, no loosing, no game basically, but I got over it a while ago.
So one or all of those things must have been reason I didn't played longer.
That is what I'm affraid of in Guild Wars 2. They say that content scales with levels, you do end game from the beginning, you look cool from start. If I won't feel that I'm becoming more powerfull while I progress and my looks and behavior also won't show this, it won't feel like rpg and biggest positive for many people, will be a big let down for me.
Some of you don't understand my point. I've read all the praising about the game, all wiki's and all glory threads. Also all negative feedback. I just didn't find them informative at all. Because many people claim this game is very good and different, but their arguments say that it doesn't really have anything new or innovative in it. So I want to know what causes people to think that way. There must be some "magic" in this game. Wether I buy it or not, I can't play it until it's released so maybe I will find something out.
Yea I never said being different was being better, I like how you thought that phase me.
Stop assuming everyone who likes GW 2 think it's perfect or Godly.
But it is true the stuff it does different or collectively is always brought up then at the end is stated to be the same.
TSW and GW2 are actually games that do stuff differently from the norm you actually stated that and at the same time trying to say it's the same. 100, 50, 25, 5% original wtf? That mean a percentage of it is original?
Like I said the only thing I can give you guys is that the feeling may be the same but in the end that's subjective.
Some things in GW2 and TSW are truely original unfortunately. Also things that improve should be different from the original iteration correct?
Little shit like execution and choices can indeed make a difference in both feeling and look. SOmetimes by adding features collectively and making them play out together can give complete different results. I'm just tired of "It's not different except..." like really?
I mean we can get into the knitty gritty but all we are going to do is list features that are different from other MMOs, and then you are going to end by saying it's not original but is done differently.
A quest is a quest, but the whole little bar in GW 2 is different, why? Becuase well shit, you can choose how to complete the heart quest how you want. Kill X isn't an option if someone feels that is what they want to complete the quest then they can. It may be better it may not but feak the fact that just regular heart quest give you that is indeed different.
DE's scale, the scaling feature makes everything less trivial even the story scales with people, that's a difference that it may be unfortunate for you but it makes a difference it's just how it is. It may or may not be better.
Downmechanic, it may or may not be better but hell it adds a layer to combat unfortunately for you that is.
I could keep going, but I'm sure someone had this mechanic but done it differently, I.E Warhammer PQ and Rifts compared to DE's all ANET did was take those things a step further, which would be making it different. Hell the focus is DE's they aren't the side mechanic building a game around those your bound to end up with different results.
GW 2 isn't perfect and I can accept if what it did differently isn't better to people, but it in fact does things differently being more than 2 gimmicks differently. People may can't stand that but it is what it is. TSW is tha same way IMO. Really just adding what games do differently all in one game you are bound to get different outcomes. That's what Funcom and ANET pretty much did and then added in their own features, if we want to say they purposely copied [everone] lol.
Edited: It's like we can all list features and say each feature came from each game but it's not like one game done it all like GW 2 this may or may not better but that's how it is. Unless we want to lie on purpose, and start acting and pretending we can make shit up and say yes a game has done this before.
GW2 and TSW have a lot of gimmicks that I think draw people in different ways, to be honest that in it self make those two games different and make them different from games that throw a few gimmicks that attract people the same way. They throw in mybe 1 or 2 gimmicks and put all effort around those gimmicks. Then leave the rest of the game "the same" it's usually majority of the game.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Well...
1. I personally enjoy GW's lore; it was the thing I liked most about GW1. Well, that and the headless bone chickens. HOURS of fun!.
2. From a PvE perspective, the hope is that they will keep introducing new content to keep us interested. That's a wait and see. As to PvP...i spent a weekend doing WvW and felt I could definitely do that for months.
I take issue with two statements that I heard from a lot of people here, both of which you cited.
A) "You do end game from the beginning": Yes and no. There's no traditional daily grind/raiding here, so teh content you do at 1 and at 80 is similar. However, there's a difference in scale. At level 1 you're fighting off bandits and such; at 80 you're taking part in an all-out invasion of Orr. It's not like a traditional MMO where the gameplay focus completely shifts at level cap, but that's not to say that the gameplay at 1 and 80 is equally epic in nature.
Those two factors added in, there is a sense of progression to be had. It's a different sort than in other MMOs, and it's not for everyone. Whether it's for you is up to you.
Um...dude? I think we're on the same side. I actually enjoy GW2, I think it's a great game and the few flaws aren't worrisome to me.
What I said about the gam being unique was not actually an insult or a criticism. It's a compliment. I LIKE what they did. I acknowledge that in essence it's not 100% unique; but what is? The point is "do you enjoy it?" I do. So, yeah.
If I say it's not 100% unique it's because I strive for honesty. I look at the game for what it is, not what the rose-colored glasses of some fans or the....what's the opposite of rose? Poop? colored glasses of its worst detractors might say. I see the whole picture for what it does great, and what it does not, and find it to be an excellent game. That's all.
I didn't even realize that, but any way atleast you made me elaborate lol sheesh.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Well, it is indeniably different from your traditional WoW/EQ clone (= 80% of the mmo market) in many core design implementations. Of course you can nitpick to hell and say "egg = chicken = egg", but we all know that. So the consensus is to judge on what we are used to play in every mmo, and compare the whole GW2 experience.
Anybody who played it will say that at least it's not yet another wow clone, in whatever feature of the game, which is by itself a good and big step forward.
Personally, I felt that "magic" you're talking about just by reading that wiki I linked in previous post. Just by reading the skill effects, the conditions, the game rules, the pve mechanics ... and verifying that it's been implemented 1:1 with videos, I knew this game will be good. Then I played, and theory was verified.
If you still think, after carefully reading the *whole* wiki, after pulling strings between different gamedesign elements, after watching videos, if after all this you still think there's "nothing new or refreshing", then either you didn't look properly, either you're super biased
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
Honestly I was in the same boat as you OP, luckily after doing some research and getting some great responses here I found out some real positives as well. However I will not quote you all the features of the game, you can simply see for yourself by going to www.guildwars2.com
Instead I will tell you my favourite 2 features and the rest is part of the package. WvWvW I think is a great feature for end game content. Although I do not know how beneficial it will be to hold keeps in general, I look forward to keeping them anyway rofl. The second and arguably the most important feature to me is public quests aka dynamic events. DE's were a big pull for me, because I loved the idea of them when they first originated with WAR. It feels that Arena net built on their original design and improved them. Hopefully they work well and are fun from 1 - 80, but only time will tell.
I assume you already know what World vs World vs World and Dynamic Events are so I won't bore you with the details, unless of course you don't really know. In which case I am sure someone here will explain it to you in better and in more detail than I.
So that is my reasoning behind it, well that and I like the fact that I don't have to deal with mana bars. And the classes are built in such a way where they put a new interesting spin on overused classes. Except for the new classes that are relatively new to MMO's, which are the Mesmer and Engineer.
Anyway you find fun and entertainment in any game, you just have to look at it with an open mind.
Hope this helped.
(P.S. Don't mind the spelling and grammar, I am only functioning at 50% because I have yet to drink my cup o jo)
I would take my cruddy unused console games to Gamestop, and trade them all in for this game. Even if you get $5 a game, it is $5 towards something worth purchasing, and not having setting on a shelf.
Then if you are living with your mom and she says "no, no more XBox games, you don't even play them", you need to listen to her for once. Same goes if you are married and the wife says "but there are only half of box of diapers left'. This is a one time entertainement investment. Buy the game and live, learn, and love...then kill your friends.
edit:sp
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Er, the majority of MMOs on the markets these days are aimed directly at the casual player. Especially WoW. I'd say its a lot more casual than GW2.
Perhaps you and I have a different understanding of what "casual" means. I'm talking about people that can commit only partial attention to an MMOG for about 5-20 hours a week, and generally no more than an hour or so at a time at the keyboard without an interruption. Because a game offers content that casuals can enjoy doesn't mean the game is fundamentally designed to suit that playstyle. If a game offers top power/gear content only to the powergamer playstyle, then it is hardly "aimed" at casuals. It's still "aimed" at hardcore players, it just tries to "also appeal" to as many casuals as it can without sacrificing the superiority of hardcore content.
GW2, IMO, is the first MMOG fundamentally designed with the casual playstyle in mind.
What I don't understand, is how someone who is apparently not interested in a game would spend the time to read 'all of the information available on the internet'. There's a ton of info on the game, tons of videos for & against the game. It's not something you could do quickly, and is a bit like doing a college thesis on something you care nothing about, and that you know ahead of time you'll get no credit for doing. It just seems odd.
For those genuinely on the fence, though, it really comes down to what you are looking for out of a new game. GW2 is a good game, but ultimately if what you are really looking for is something else, it doesn't matter how good GW2 is. You'll still be expecting something different.
I think that might be good enough for me. Thanks for clearing this up for me.
The thing that I also noticed is that most people that praise this game seem to be very into rp part of mmorpg and I like that. It may turn out to be a good community. I'm not talking about guys thinking they are actually character in game, but at least being polite and helpful and not seing game in numbers and fastest algorithms.
I think I'm convinced to check it out. Of course I didn't read the whole wiki. I just read what I thought was most important, I will read more later.
Except that it is... everything in WoW is aimed at the casual audience. Even the hardest raids and most exclusive items are easier to do than the majority of earlier MMOs. Everything from the simple game design, to the lack of risk vs reward, to the fact that almost all the content is solo questing... There's little to no hardcore content in WoW.
I think the easiest way to figure out whether this game is worthwhile for you is to understand what your looking for first. Breakdown what you feel is important in a game, and check if GW2 matches those personal expectations. If you have already taken a look at the site and seen the features you should already have your answer. We cannot make the decision for you as we all have different reasons for wanting to play this game.
You and I have a completely different definition of what "casual" means. By my definition, casuals do not do raids in WoW, period.
It's really not difficult to find "positives" about GW2. Even cursory research into GW2 should show you the features that people are excited about.
That said, if you find yourself struggling to find positives in GW2...then the game probably isn't for you.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
In character creation you're not held to what role you want to play in a group. Yes, some classes have slightly better regeneration or shielding abilities but these are not drastic and are trait specified anyways if you want them.
When you get out into the world you realize your quest box area is adding and erasing objectives as you enter certain areas. You're not receiving 10 different orders and ignoring everything between A&B. When a DE pops up you can go engage in that and come back to what you were doing or head elsewhere. All the while doing things with others like you were in a group but credited seperately.
Healing "downed" and defeated players adds a nice dynamic, especially in veteran mob fights. You can even revive NPCs which can be part of an areas objective.
The combat system may be looked at as simple due to only 10 skills shown at one time but each profession has its own mechanics and additional to that the weapon and trait choices make it a lot deeper than some realize.
Regarding GW I have this feeling that there will be a large world with castles, caves and other points of interest. The thing is, why would I go search that cave when I am 100% sure there is nothing inside that will make me stronger in any way? Why would I be looking for that cave in the first place? What drives me and probably many other players to explore the world is the fact that there might be some treasure hidden in that world. In GW's world, there is no treasure.
I agree that in the short run, it will be fun. However, when people hit max level, get all skills and the gear cap and realize that in terms of their character progression it is basically it and that now they can only play WvWvW or do PVE for reasons such as achievements, titles and cosmetic gear, most of them will lose interest. By removing vertical progression completely, the game becomes massive fantasy first person siege simulator. Even some of the GW fans compare the game to Call of Duty or CS rather than MMORPG.
I agree that from your perspective, that is what GW2 looks like. I don't play MMOGs for the same reasons you do. I don't define "treasure" as strictly "that which makes my character more powerful". My motivation for playing cannot be boiled down to "becoming more powerful" in terms of my character.
Yes, for you, the lack of vertical progression would turn the game into nothing more a first-person siege simulator; for me, it turns the game into an opportunity to RP and enjoy some good times with friends without that constant, nagging sensation that we're "wasting time" because there's a never-ending hamster treadmill over there beckoning us towards virtual items with bigger numbers on them.
You may be right; GW2 might see an exodus of players after a short time. We'll see.
lol, let me guess : because you can't find if something is interesting without gathering at least core informations about it ?
Begging for a solution about the interest one should have in something while not wanting to read infos about it is paradoxal and stupid, imo. It's just common sense.
And why asking for people to copy paste the wiki in a thread when every answer to any question is already in said wiki ... ? (Except to make some unnecessary noise about how much he's not interested ?)
Plus, that wiki is not difficult to read at all, it's stripped down to core infos, with ingame-HUD-like presentations, etc. Refusing to read it is plain laziness and proportionally doesn't deserve any human effort to summarize it. (summarize something that is already summarized, jeez !
)
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
The only way to help you find positive's in this game is to buy you a copy and your goona have to get your own. Lol.....
I'll give you one AAA/NO SUB!!!
Cant believe there are so many replys to another "Please beg me to play your game" thread.
I'm not so sure about the player-driven content idea. Essentially that's a hark back to the sandbox days but the modern MMO crowd are generally dicks, (as expressed with the COH player stuff), or just generally not capable of making anything that isn't self indulgent pap. Maybe giving players the tools to change the dynamics of the game is the way to go, but therein lies another problem if players without the, 'power', get annoyed and quit, (i.e. the toothless TERA political system), and as another poster said that inevitably leads to a smaller playerbase and no developers are interested in that road.
I do agree though that scaled content does not equal long term interest. It's essentially the same as having a 'heroic' mode or 'hard' mode in a dungeon for WOW. WOW kept that going with the gear carrot, killing the same stuff but now it's a bit harder is not fun long term. What does make my laugh is GW2 fans will say, 'there's no grind!', in this game, but the end game seems to be setup to redo everything you've just done in the game, but it's more difficult now, for some gear skins.
Sounds like a grind to me...
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!