Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by AlotI do hope that I'm not the only person amused by the lamenting of Sandbox fanboys?
This isnt about sandbox, its about bringing more options to an mmo thus making more like a virtual world. I know its easy to say "you want to do more than just kill stuff? you must be a sandbox fanboy lol" But take a look at what you're actually doing in these new AAA mmos. You're literally just doing combat. The options for not doing combat are laughable. Some guy mentioned jumping puzzles in GW2 lol are you serious? And whats the reward for these mini games... stat bonuses for what? combat. Combat is the ultimate means to the ultimate end in all these mmos. I kill stuff so I can kill stuff better. I jump on these platforms to reach an item that helps me kill stuff better. I make food to help me kill stuff better. Keg brawl. Yeah lets take a break from combat and beat each other up. And so many people are eating this up like its the evolution of the genre. It feels like im in the twilight zone sometimes lol. Cant you guys see how pathetic this genre is now?Uh huh. Sure it is.
The 'popular games don't have my dreamlist of features, implemented exactly the way I want them; so therefor the genre is garbage' aregument is nothing short of ridiculous.
I also don't see why you are so fixated on GW2. We get it, you hate what it stands for, some other bs like that. What does that have to do w/ the genre as whole, lol.
If you want a virtual world, and are honestly sick of combat, then go play second life. Or go play eve, or wait for Repopulation, or play A Tale in the Desert. If you want a multiplayer sim, go play minecraft FFS.
I dont hate gw2. and this isnt about what i personally want out of a specific game. its about what the genre was becoming before it became obsessed with perfecting only combat and instant gratification. with cash shops and esport in tow. im sorry you take it personally when I talk about a genre. its not a bash on your likes. i think the combat and quest presentation in gw2 is great. not sure why you feel so threatened by this thread.
What options are you talking about? The option to kill stuff 100 different ways in 1000 different games? I liked the older options better. Yeah there were less actual games to choose from, but at least each of those games had dozens of different ways to play. MMOs today have 2 maybe 3 ways to play, tops. And no, killing something with a fireball instead of a crossbow is not variety.
So you want the play of old games. Then go play them, they're all still around. Enjoy the 1999 play of Asheron's Call, it's still here. Or go for Meridian 59. Check back in to UO. Or Everquest. Have fun.
100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.
If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.
MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.
Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.
I blame Planes of Power for unleashing this madness upon us, but ultimately it's the fault of the consumer.
Everquest was such an incredible experience of exploration and fun. PoP came out and everyone was like.... WOOAOHH we don't have to run for 2 hours to get where we want to go (having adventures and fun all along the way).... 2 weeks later: 90% of the population is sitting in the Plane of Kowledge saying "LFG xxxxx" then clicking a stone to get there instantly. It was a massive hit but at some point MMO gamers decided that they wanted the game's to be all about the destination and not the journey.
We dug our own grave, PoP just gave us the shovel.
If I want to explore and enjoy the RPG elements of a gaming world, I will play a single player game, because MMO's will never be able to offer that again and make money.
In some respects I understand what people are saying......they are wanting gameworlds to feel like WORLDS, not just shallow areas with all the depth of a teaspoon. Gameworlds which have a certain degree of dependance on what the players are actually doing. Gameworlds that change in accordance with what players are doing. Gameworlds which the player can somewhat mould and create their own adventures rather than just following a linear set of quests.
I can certainly appreciate that.
For me, GW2 seems to tick a lot of those boxes, but it is falling down on a couple of points which could make it even better. Some that spring to mind are the lack of housing, lack of mounts, and more reason to do things other than the dev driven content (fishing, RP events, etc, etc).
I'm hoping that Anet actually implement the above sometime.
Side note: I hope they put Jute plants and skinning in the game too.
Originally posted by AlotI do hope that I'm not the only person amused by the lamenting of Sandbox fanboys?
This isnt about sandbox, its about bringing more options to an mmo thus making more like a virtual world. I know its easy to say "you want to do more than just kill stuff? you must be a sandbox fanboy lol" But take a look at what you're actually doing in these new AAA mmos. You're literally just doing combat. The options for not doing combat are laughable. Some guy mentioned jumping puzzles in GW2 lol are you serious? And whats the reward for these mini games... stat bonuses for what? combat. Combat is the ultimate means to the ultimate end in all these mmos. I kill stuff so I can kill stuff better. I jump on these platforms to reach an item that helps me kill stuff better. I make food to help me kill stuff better. Keg brawl. Yeah lets take a break from combat and beat each other up. And so many people are eating this up like its the evolution of the genre. It feels like im in the twilight zone sometimes lol. Cant you guys see how pathetic this genre is now?
Uh huh. Sure it is.
The 'popular games don't have my dreamlist of features, implemented exactly the way I want them; so therefor the genre is garbage' aregument is nothing short of ridiculous.
I also don't see why you are so fixated on GW2. We get it, you hate what it stands for, some other bs like that. What does that have to do w/ the genre as whole, lol.
If you want a virtual world, and are honestly sick of combat, then go play second life. Or go play eve, or wait for Repopulation, or play A Tale in the Desert. If you want a multiplayer sim, go play minecraft FFS.
I dont hate gw2. and this isnt about what i personally want out of a specific game. its about what the genre was becoming before it became obsessed with perfecting only combat and instant gratification. with cash shops and esport in tow. im sorry you take it personally when I talk about a genre. its not a bash on your likes. i think the combat and quest presentation in gw2 is great. not sure why you feel so threatened by this thread.
I understand what you're saying but, what would YOU like to see in these games besides combat upgrades? Are you talking about being able to get cosmetic non-combat upgrades too? If so, certain MMO's do have those (I won't name names). Also, what non-combat activities do you think are missing? Fishing? I agree. What else? RP events? I agree too.
Any other suggestions?
Incidentally, I'm asking simply because I'm curious as to what you have in mind, I'm not meaning to attack your opinion
How many times has WoW's ultimate demise been forecast (incorrectly) now? Half a million threads?
We just got tired of that one and moved on to the industry as a whole. Same quality of predictive powers though.
End-of-the-World preachers and profiteers. Some day, one of them will be right!
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Tarka I understand what you're saying but, what would YOU like to see in these games besides combat upgrades? Are you talking about being able to get cosmetic non-combat upgrades too? If so, certain MMO's do have those (I won't name names). Also, what non-combat activities do you think are missing? Fishing? I agree. What else? RP events? I agree too.Any other suggestions?Incidentally, I'm asking simply because I'm curious as to what you have in mind, I'm not meaning to attack your opinion
I think about what we as human beings enjoy in real life that takes us out of our normal day to day. The things that we like to watch on tv or listen to or attend in person. Then I would have those translated into games in a virtual world. Games that include competition, cooperation, and individual expression.
Team sports, concerts, plays, races, individual sports, extreme sports, hobby culture like models, horticulture, terrariums, aquariums. Things that allow us to interact with the world around us. Change its initial intent. Urban art, street skating, parkour. Friendly competitions like expos dedicated to home furnishings both indoor and outdoor, fashion shows, laptop battles in a club, dj battles, dance crews. All of this allows for collaboration, competition, and individual expression. The list is practically endless when you stop thinking of mmorpgs as combat and start thinking of a virtual world.
What options are you talking about? The option to kill stuff 100 different ways in 1000 different games? I liked the older options better. Yeah there were less actual games to choose from, but at least each of those games had dozens of different ways to play. MMOs today have 2 maybe 3 ways to play, tops. And no, killing something with a fireball instead of a crossbow is not variety.
So you want the play of old games. Then go play them, they're all still around. Enjoy the 1999 play of Asheron's Call, it's still here. Or go for Meridian 59. Check back in to UO. Or Everquest. Have fun.
I find it dishearting that people are taking this personal or brushing off the OPs comments as wanting a sandbox or "old" game. That's not what he's asking for.
I'm pretty sure, at this point, it would become pretty obvious that all he was saying was elements of what made these games great and imerssive are what he feels are missing from modern mmos. For him, the devs have created instant "highs" and gratification and so everything feels as if it's fleeting. For a virtual world to feel alive (again to him) there needs to be more than just run, hack,slash, sell, rinse, repeat.
And he's not the only one who feels that way.
Maybe I'm naive. Maybe it is too much to ask for aspects of these games along with updated graphics, and influx of new players along with some of the good progess mmos have gone through.
Nuts now I'm way off topic, but lets face it, you can't argue that the genre's changed signficantly, and we who are not happy with this are never going to go away. (well, I guess we'll die off eventually)
Worry not, there is continous stream of new players that are not satisfied. Some of them will be for diffrent reasons than we'are but there will be even some that are dissatisfied for same reasons as we're. Some because they want more freedom and 'virtual world' even if they haven't played game like that, but they have enough imagination to see that it could be possible.
Some because there still is sizeable audience in EVE Online, that might get bored of it or might prefer sandbox feeling like it but in 'flesh and bones' character enviroment and not spaceship one + there is small playerbase playing very old titles or low production qualiity ones.
+ there is sizeable audience playing games like Skyrim, DayZ and few other 'less linear - more (even if fictional like in Skyrim) sandboxy titles that might want to get that feeling in mmorpg.
So worry not. I read mmorpg forums for a long time and actually this sentiment is growing as time pass not decreasing which should theretically happen heh. (obviously there is less virtual world fans than themepark or lobby fans don't get me wrong)
For those that don't like but cannot stop reading and responding to it, might want to get some calm pills, some popcorn and get ready for next 10 years for same 'wars' that are today - judging from genre direction
How many times has WoW's ultimate demise been forecast (incorrectly) now? Half a million threads?
We just got tired of that one and moved on to the industry as a whole. Same quality of predictive powers though.
I don't think you're understanding the OP. He didn't say WoW or MMO's were going to die, he said the GENRE is dead. Meaning it's a souless husk of what it was intended to be, it's just a cashgrab now. I'm not saying modern MMO's are terrible but I totally agree with the OP's insight on what the genre has turned into.
I bet if you told Brad McQuaid back in 1999 on what MMO's would REQUIRE in today's age he would go on an epic mission to destroy his creation (kind of like that black guy from Terminator 2).
*note I reference EQ1 over Ultima because we seem to be talking more about the origins of the theme park genre.
Originally posted by Tarka I understand what you're saying but, what would YOU like to see in these games besides combat upgrades? Are you talking about being able to get cosmetic non-combat upgrades too? If so, certain MMO's do have those (I won't name names). Also, what non-combat activities do you think are missing? Fishing? I agree. What else? RP events? I agree too.
Any other suggestions?
Incidentally, I'm asking simply because I'm curious as to what you have in mind, I'm not meaning to attack your opinion
I think about what we as human beings enjoy in real life that takes us out of our normal day to day. The things that we like to watch on tv or listen to or attend in person. Then I would have those translated into games in a virtual world. Games that include competition, cooperation, and individual expression.
Team sports, concerts, plays, races, individual sports, extreme sports, hobby culture like models, horticulture, terrariums, aquariums. Things that allow us to interact with the world around us. Change its initial intent. Urban art, street skating, parkour. Friendly competitions like expos dedicated to home furnishings both indoor and outdoor, fashion shows, laptop battles in a club, dj battles, dance crews. All of this allows for collaboration, competition, and individual expression. The list is practically endless when you stop thinking of mmorpgs as combat and start thinking of a virtual world.
I understand, what do you have in mind? Bearing in mind the context of the virtual world in question (e.g. take a fantasy world like GW2 or WoW), what forms would this virtual world content take?
For instance, when you talk about aquariums, I would think that you are referring to areas of beauty in a virtual world that really have no direct connection to a "Story" but nevertheless have been designed and exist in the virtual world to simply "be there and appreciated". A sort of "Easter Egg" for players to find and enjoy.
"100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized."
Hopefully something good will come out of this. My guess is no, there is cash to be made So I will play my solo games and now and then jump into a mmo just to see if there is something that can catch my attenion. And Im happy for you guys that dosent agree with the OP.
Eve online and +1500 steam games in the back cataloge makes me a stressed out gamer.
I don't think you're understanding the OP. He didn't say WoW or MMO's were going to die, he said the GENRE is dead. Meaning it's a souless husk of what it was intended to be, it's just a cashgrab now. I'm not saying modern MMO's are terrible but I totally agree with the OP's insight on what the genre has turned into.
Did you perchance notice the emotively loaded language used in your first paragraph? Do you understand that you're toying with conceptuals, with value judgements, with wild guesses and exaggerations, typical forum hyperbole? There isn't any data here, or in the OP's prediction.
Slippery slope. Mmorpg.com provides daily courses in writing it.
"Gather round me, disaffected people, and shout 'Me Too'! when I cue you." Demagoguery is a simple game.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't think you're understanding the OP. He didn't say WoW or MMO's were going to die, he said the GENRE is dead. Meaning it's a souless husk of what it was intended to be, it's just a cashgrab now. I'm not saying modern MMO's are terrible but I totally agree with the OP's insight on what the genre has turned into.
Did you perchance notice the emotively loaded language used in your first paragraph? Do you understand that you're toying with conceptuals, with value judgements, with wild guesses and exaggerations, typical forum hyperbole? There isn't any data here, or in the OP's prediction.
Slippery slope. Mmorpg.com provides daily courses in writing it.
I dont see what you are seeing. Could you please explain it a bit better maybe?
Data is humbug just as predictions
Eve online and +1500 steam games in the back cataloge makes me a stressed out gamer.
With a few exceptions, the virtual world style of MMO is dead. Ironically, the persistent world is one of the main defining features of MMORPGs, yet its importance has been eroded by the continual introduction of systems that favor casual, solo gameplay. Game developers want to maximize their playerbases, and in order to do that, they have to appeal to the masses, i.e. the casual player.
Unfortunately, that genie is out of the bottle, permanently. There are a handful of games that continue to buck the trend, but so far the genre is dominated by such mass-market games.
100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.
If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.
MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.
Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.
You must know that forums of this site are full with enraged Guild Wars 2 fans. They won't like this op belive me, as GW2 is the game that trying to make a standard from those greedy "revolutionary" game mechanics. So this is directly against them, so be careful, my first post was deleted from those forums cause i said all those stuff but directly in the case of guild wars.
How many times has WoW's ultimate demise been forecast (incorrectly) now? Half a million threads?
We just got tired of that one and moved on to the industry as a whole. Same quality of predictive powers though.
I don't think you're understanding the OP. He didn't say WoW or MMO's were going to die, he said the GENRE is dead. Meaning it's a souless husk of what it was intended to be, it's just a cashgrab now. I'm not saying modern MMO's are terrible but I totally agree with the OP's insight on what the genre has turned into.
I bet if you told Brad McQuaid back in 1999 on what MMO's would REQUIRE in today's age he would go on an epic mission to destroy his creation (kind of like that black guy from Terminator 2).
*note I reference EQ1 over Ultima because we seem to be talking more about the origins of the theme park genre.
"souless husk"? No .. it is more fun now than before. The genre is tuning into lobby based co-op games which focus on fun, rather than useless sound good but boring virtual world mechanics like waiting.
If Brad knows what happened today, he will jump directly in front of the trend to make more money, and beat everyone to it. If not, some other will do it. There is always the innovative devs who sees what players want.
With a few exceptions, the virtual world style of MMO is dead. Ironically, the persistent world is one of the main defining features of MMORPGs, yet its importance has been eroded by the continual introduction of systems that favor casual, solo gameplay. Game developers want to maximize their playerbases, and in order to do that, they have to appeal to the masses, i.e. the casual player.
Unfortunately, that genie is out of the bottle, permanently. There are a handful of games that continue to buck the trend, but so far the genre is dominated by such mass-market games.
Which is great ... from my point of view. Sacrificing fun to focus on a virtual world is not consistent to the mission of games ... to entertain.
100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.
If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.
MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.
Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.
I wouldn't say it is dead. The genre is just evolving. Some like the changes and some do not. Cash shops are pretty much standard because devs can get more money this way than just a sub fee. This is just the way it is now we either have to embrace it for what it is or just turn our backs on it. This has become an industry standard now.
Originally posted by Tarka Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by TarkaI understand what you're saying but, what would YOU like to see in these games besides combat upgrades? Are you talking about being able to get cosmetic non-combat upgrades too? If so, certain MMO's do have those (I won't name names). Also, what non-combat activities do you think are missing? Fishing? I agree. What else? RP events? I agree too.Any other suggestions?Incidentally, I'm asking simply because I'm curious as to what you have in mind, I'm not meaning to attack your opinion
I think about what we as human beings enjoy in real life that takes us out of our normal day to day. The things that we like to watch on tv or listen to or attend in person. Then I would have those translated into games in a virtual world. Games that include competition, cooperation, and individual expression.Team sports, concerts, plays, races, individual sports, extreme sports, hobby culture like models, horticulture, terrariums, aquariums. Things that allow us to interact with the world around us. Change its initial intent. Urban art, street skating, parkour. Friendly competitions like expos dedicated to home furnishings both indoor and outdoor, fashion shows, laptop battles in a club, dj battles, dance crews. All of this allows for collaboration, competition, and individual expression. The list is practically endless when you stop thinking of mmorpgs as combat and start thinking of a virtual world.I understand, what do you have in mind? Bearing in mind the context of the virtual world in question (e.g. take a fantasy world like GW2 or WoW), what forms would this virtual world content take?
For instance, when you talk about aquariums, I would think that you are referring to areas of beauty in a virtual world that really have no direct connection to a "Story" but nevertheless have been designed and exist in the virtual world to simply "be there and appreciated". A sort of "Easter Egg" for players to find and enjoy.
If I were dealing with GW2. First, Id get rid of cash shop items that supplemented crafting (the ones that change appearance, color, stats) and implement it into the actual crafting system.
Then I would decide on the amount of players I could hold per server and make permanent, not instanced housing in each major city. For example, if there are 4 major cities and 6000 players capped per server, I would construct a non instanced district in each city that had four to five large buildings which would total 1500 units for rent. Players could trade room and location and grab vacancies based on a recurring rental fee.
With housing comes furniture, art, music libraries, pets, cooking and plants. I would have crafting classes that accomidate all of those. From running a nursery to a pet breeder and all the stuff in between. Clothing would also be in that category and I would have a crafting class that specializes in creating aesthetic attire.
After that, I would tackle social spaces. All chairs can be sat in, all walls leaned up against. I would have a separate UI when im not in combat that has hotkeys for various moods, emotes, and customized chat scripts.
Then I would get rid of node farming and incorporate crafting and gathering into the dynamic event system. Maybe a mining town is under attack. If it is saved, you have access to metals for a period of time. Or perhaps a farm is ransacked and you help the people till their land in return you are rewarded with fresh fruits and vegetables to cook with. Sheep farms for tailors or exotic wares from random merchants. A special loom or forge owned by a specific local of an obscure village. Only available when certain criteria are met and scattered across the world.
Then I would put in a race of some sort. Each city has a track that snakes through its streets and once a day or week, players can purchase either a mount or vehicle made by a crafter or breeder and enter the race. Leaderboards for each city are regularly updated and better crafted or bred mounts contribute to your performance ie top speeds, handling, etc.
I would allow pubs to have music and dance customized by the players. Being able to grab a partner and swing them around, or get up on stage and change the tune. Have the ability to control lighting and various effects as well. Create moods in a social space.
Id also have a team sport of some kind. Think Huttball. Butinstead of having all of your combat moves and killing the other players, you have a set of physical abilities like duck, speed bost, tackle, shoot, pass, formations, audibles, etc. Have arenas in each major city and tournaments spread out over several circuits.
Theres more, but this is all going to get shot down anyway heh.
Then I would decide on the amount of players I could hold per server and make permanent, not instanced housing in each major city. For example, if there are 4 major cities and 6000 players capped per server, I would construct a non instanced district in each city that had four to five large buildings which would total 1500 units for rent. Players could trade room and location and grab vacancies based on a recurring rental fee.
With housing comes furniture, art, music libraries, pets, cooking and plants. I would have crafting classes that accomidate all of those. From running a nursery to a pet breeder and all the stuff in between. Clothing would also be in that category and I would have a crafting class that specializes in creating aesthetic attire.
LOl .. really? If i want to play SIMS .. i go play SIMS or second life. This is a waste of resources for a combat centric GAME.
Oh, i won't refuse to play a game with housing, but i just don't care and if the combat/progression is not done well, i am out of here.
With a few exceptions, the virtual world style of MMO is dead. Ironically, the persistent world is one of the main defining features of MMORPGs, yet its importance has been eroded by the continual introduction of systems that favor casual, solo gameplay. Game developers want to maximize their playerbases, and in order to do that, they have to appeal to the masses, i.e. the casual player.
Unfortunately, that genie is out of the bottle, permanently. There are a handful of games that continue to buck the trend, but so far the genre is dominated by such mass-market games.
Which is great ... from my point of view. Sacrificing fun to focus on a virtual world is not consistent to the mission of games ... to entertain.
I am glad where the market is going.
That's the point. The one thing that really separates MMORPGs from other games, from other RPGs specifically, is the persistent world inhabited by a massive concurrent population of players. The current trend is to eliminate the relevance of that persistent world, which makes little sense to me.
The concept of "fun" couldn't be any more subjective. To me, the virtual world/society was the fun of an MMO. Frankly, as far as fun is concerned, single-player and co-op games have superior game mechanics across the board when compared to MMOs, and are potentially a lot more "fun". Unfortunately, most current MMOs have devolved into single-player lobby games, without the benefit of those better mechanics.
Then I would decide on the amount of players I could hold per server and make permanent, not instanced housing in each major city. For example, if there are 4 major cities and 6000 players capped per server, I would construct a non instanced district in each city that had four to five large buildings which would total 1500 units for rent. Players could trade room and location and grab vacancies based on a recurring rental fee.
With housing comes furniture, art, music libraries, pets, cooking and plants. I would have crafting classes that accomidate all of those. From running a nursery to a pet breeder and all the stuff in between. Clothing would also be in that category and I would have a crafting class that specializes in creating aesthetic attire.
LOl .. really? If i want to play SIMS .. i go play SIMS or second life. This is a waste of resources for a combat centric GAME.
Oh, i won't refuse to play a game with housing, but i just don't care and if the combat/progression is not done well, i am out of here.
Thing is people who want features like Foomerang do not want mmorpg's as combat centric only
Besides SIMS is also a game.
Another thing is that Sims does not offer combat and I get a feeling that Foomerang want BOTH combat and non-combat things. Plenty of both in one game.
Originally posted by fenistil Originally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by FoomerangThen I would decide on the amount of players I could hold per server and make permanent, not instanced housing in each major city. For example, if there are 4 major cities and 6000 players capped per server, I would construct a non instanced district in each city that had four to five large buildings which would total 1500 units for rent. Players could trade room and location and grab vacancies based on a recurring rental fee.With housing comes furniture, art, music libraries, pets, cooking and plants. I would have crafting classes that accomidate all of those. From running a nursery to a pet breeder and all the stuff in between. Clothing would also be in that category and I would have a crafting class that specializes in creating aesthetic attire.
LOl .. really? If i want to play SIMS .. i go play SIMS or second life. This is a waste of resources for a combat centric GAME.Oh, i won't refuse to play a game with housing, but i just don't care and if the combat/progression is not done well, i am out of here.Thing is people who want features like Foomerang do not want mmorpg's as combat centric only
Besides SIMS is also a game.
Another thing is that Sims does not offer combat and I get a feeling that Foomerang want BOTH combat and non-combat things. Plenty of both in one game.
Exactly. The more things you can do, the more types of people play. The more types of people play, the more diverse and interesting people you meet. The more diverse and interesting people you meet, the more rewarding a virtual world becomes. That is one huge plus to having a game with lots of valid playstyles.
More people play those games NOW after the initial excitement has worn off than any of the early games. didn't EQ have 200 or 250k? did ultima have more? How much? I can't imagine it was hundreds of thousands more. What you seem to be asserting is that the small group of people who started in the mmo genre were right and the many more who are now playing and enjoying these games are wrong.
Ok, EQ peaked at around 650k, UO was in the low 400's, same with AC. Just for the sake of numbers.
Where i take beef with this post is you're making a HUGE mistake. The mistake you're making is assuming that MMO genre today is the same as it was in the beginning. What i mean by that is the MMO genre existed for about 4 years as a genre that catered to a specific niche type of gaming. WOW came along and broadened the genre. Let me use racing as an example:
When MMO's came out, it was for people who were really into "racing", these people had cars suited specifically for the task. But because of that, these cars were loud, uncomfortable, hot, expensive, etc. Now, imagine someone came along, saw this racing community and went, "hmm, i can really monetize that!". So they come in, buy out the race tracks, release their own racing series, but they let everyone in. You've got a 1987 Ford Fiesta? Sure, why not. A minivan? sure ok, who cares.
Well now, all those people in the racing specific cars are forced to try to race on a track with bunch of POS minivans and ford fiestas.
My point is that blizzard changed the genre and caused a snowball effect. What was once something pure is now a big hodge podge of shit.
So, to answer your question, yes, the people who play "MMOs" now ARE wrong. Because they aren't playing MMO's, what is out now is not an MMO, it bears little resemblance to what real MMO's were designed for.
This is not to say that your opinion of today's games is "wrong" because you like what you like. But the mmo genre has grown and it seems that the majority of people playing are into today's games.
you might rebut with "they never stay in them for more than a few months if that". And I would say "that's because today's mmo gamers are probably not looking for anything with a greater commitment.
You can't take the template of the early adopters and apply that to everyone who has become a current mmo player.
Truth of the matter is that most of these games gather way more people at launch than they rightfully should have. Some of these people are looking for something different from WoW and then start crying because the games are not WoW; some of them are just looking for something to play for a small bit and then they can hop onto the next game that comes out.
When you cut away the players who really would never be interested in some of these games you do find that they still have players.
Rift has players. SWToR has players. AoC has players. Star Trek online has playres. And who do I listen to? The jaded and unhappy mmo gamres who decry the current set of games; where everything is shit, or the guy at work who isn't an mmo gamer but he tried Star Trek online and then says to me "I don't know why some people dont' like this game, it's really fun".
Do I listen to post after post of angry, angry forum goers or the father who plays SWToR with his daughter and I see them going on about how much they enjoy it and how much fun they are having?
Have you ever heard the expression "water finds its own level"? Many of these games had/have issues, true, but they still have an audience playing them. They still have fans.
Heck, I remember one woman at work who, to my surprise, was in a WoW raiding guild and she was applauding the changes that were being made to WoW because it meant that she would have more time to play. Essentially she liked the more casual aspect that was being added.
The mmo genre is growing and like any media, it has gathered greater fans but fans who are not as hardcore or who do not have the desire to play games that are "virtual worlds". Heck, even another guy at work, who I would say is a "gamer" told me last month that he preferred his games to be more like games and less like "worlds".
And the current mmos' are just up his alley.
So from a business standpoint, i totally agree and understand what you're saying. The problem is that gaming/games is a form of entertainment which is a form of art. At some point you have to draw a line between what you're willing to do as a producer of art/entertainment to increase sales vs maintain your ethical integrity.
Our concern as "jaded/embittered" gamers is that something which we loved has been twisted and pissed on and turned into something it never was. Calling today's MMORPG's "MMORPG's" is literally a joke. They bear little resemblance to what an MMO was.
Its kind of like saying that a minivan is like a ferrari because they're both cars.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
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Uh huh. Sure it is.
The 'popular games don't have my dreamlist of features, implemented exactly the way I want them; so therefor the genre is garbage' aregument is nothing short of ridiculous.
I also don't see why you are so fixated on GW2. We get it, you hate what it stands for, some other bs like that. What does that have to do w/ the genre as whole, lol.
If you want a virtual world, and are honestly sick of combat, then go play second life. Or go play eve, or wait for Repopulation, or play A Tale in the Desert. If you want a multiplayer sim, go play minecraft FFS.
I dont hate gw2. and this isnt about what i personally want out of a specific game. its about what the genre was becoming before it became obsessed with perfecting only combat and instant gratification. with cash shops and esport in tow. im sorry you take it personally when I talk about a genre. its not a bash on your likes. i think the combat and quest presentation in gw2 is great. not sure why you feel so threatened by this thread.
So you want the play of old games. Then go play them, they're all still around. Enjoy the 1999 play of Asheron's Call, it's still here. Or go for Meridian 59. Check back in to UO. Or Everquest. Have fun.
I blame Planes of Power for unleashing this madness upon us, but ultimately it's the fault of the consumer.
Everquest was such an incredible experience of exploration and fun. PoP came out and everyone was like.... WOOAOHH we don't have to run for 2 hours to get where we want to go (having adventures and fun all along the way).... 2 weeks later: 90% of the population is sitting in the Plane of Kowledge saying "LFG xxxxx" then clicking a stone to get there instantly. It was a massive hit but at some point MMO gamers decided that they wanted the game's to be all about the destination and not the journey.
We dug our own grave, PoP just gave us the shovel.
If I want to explore and enjoy the RPG elements of a gaming world, I will play a single player game, because MMO's will never be able to offer that again and make money.
In some respects I understand what people are saying......they are wanting gameworlds to feel like WORLDS, not just shallow areas with all the depth of a teaspoon. Gameworlds which have a certain degree of dependance on what the players are actually doing. Gameworlds that change in accordance with what players are doing. Gameworlds which the player can somewhat mould and create their own adventures rather than just following a linear set of quests.
I can certainly appreciate that.
For me, GW2 seems to tick a lot of those boxes, but it is falling down on a couple of points which could make it even better. Some that spring to mind are the lack of housing, lack of mounts, and more reason to do things other than the dev driven content (fishing, RP events, etc, etc).
I'm hoping that Anet actually implement the above sometime.
Side note: I hope they put Jute plants and skinning in the game too.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I understand what you're saying but, what would YOU like to see in these games besides combat upgrades? Are you talking about being able to get cosmetic non-combat upgrades too? If so, certain MMO's do have those (I won't name names). Also, what non-combat activities do you think are missing? Fishing? I agree. What else? RP events? I agree too.
Any other suggestions?
Incidentally, I'm asking simply because I'm curious as to what you have in mind, I'm not meaning to attack your opinion
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
How many times has WoW's ultimate demise been forecast (incorrectly) now? Half a million threads?
We just got tired of that one and moved on to the industry as a whole. Same quality of predictive powers though.
End-of-the-World preachers and profiteers. Some day, one of them will be right!
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think about what we as human beings enjoy in real life that takes us out of our normal day to day. The things that we like to watch on tv or listen to or attend in person. Then I would have those translated into games in a virtual world. Games that include competition, cooperation, and individual expression.
Team sports, concerts, plays, races, individual sports, extreme sports, hobby culture like models, horticulture, terrariums, aquariums. Things that allow us to interact with the world around us. Change its initial intent. Urban art, street skating, parkour. Friendly competitions like expos dedicated to home furnishings both indoor and outdoor, fashion shows, laptop battles in a club, dj battles, dance crews. All of this allows for collaboration, competition, and individual expression. The list is practically endless when you stop thinking of mmorpgs as combat and start thinking of a virtual world.
I find it dishearting that people are taking this personal or brushing off the OPs comments as wanting a sandbox or "old" game. That's not what he's asking for.
I'm pretty sure, at this point, it would become pretty obvious that all he was saying was elements of what made these games great and imerssive are what he feels are missing from modern mmos. For him, the devs have created instant "highs" and gratification and so everything feels as if it's fleeting. For a virtual world to feel alive (again to him) there needs to be more than just run, hack,slash, sell, rinse, repeat.
And he's not the only one who feels that way.
Maybe I'm naive. Maybe it is too much to ask for aspects of these games along with updated graphics, and influx of new players along with some of the good progess mmos have gone through.
Worry not, there is continous stream of new players that are not satisfied. Some of them will be for diffrent reasons than we'are but there will be even some that are dissatisfied for same reasons as we're. Some because they want more freedom and 'virtual world' even if they haven't played game like that, but they have enough imagination to see that it could be possible.
Some because there still is sizeable audience in EVE Online, that might get bored of it or might prefer sandbox feeling like it but in 'flesh and bones' character enviroment and not spaceship one + there is small playerbase playing very old titles or low production qualiity ones.
+ there is sizeable audience playing games like Skyrim, DayZ and few other 'less linear - more (even if fictional like in Skyrim) sandboxy titles that might want to get that feeling in mmorpg.
So worry not. I read mmorpg forums for a long time and actually this sentiment is growing as time pass not decreasing which should theretically happen heh. (obviously there is less virtual world fans than themepark or lobby fans don't get me wrong)
For those that don't like but cannot stop reading and responding to it, might want to get some calm pills, some popcorn and get ready for next 10 years for same 'wars' that are today - judging from genre direction
I don't think you're understanding the OP. He didn't say WoW or MMO's were going to die, he said the GENRE is dead. Meaning it's a souless husk of what it was intended to be, it's just a cashgrab now. I'm not saying modern MMO's are terrible but I totally agree with the OP's insight on what the genre has turned into.
I bet if you told Brad McQuaid back in 1999 on what MMO's would REQUIRE in today's age he would go on an epic mission to destroy his creation (kind of like that black guy from Terminator 2).
*note I reference EQ1 over Ultima because we seem to be talking more about the origins of the theme park genre.
I understand, what do you have in mind? Bearing in mind the context of the virtual world in question (e.g. take a fantasy world like GW2 or WoW), what forms would this virtual world content take?
For instance, when you talk about aquariums, I would think that you are referring to areas of beauty in a virtual world that really have no direct connection to a "Story" but nevertheless have been designed and exist in the virtual world to simply "be there and appreciated". A sort of "Easter Egg" for players to find and enjoy.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Its sure as hell dead. And I agree with
"100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized."
Hopefully something good will come out of this. My guess is no, there is cash to be made
So I will play my solo games and now and then jump into a mmo just to see if there is something that can catch my attenion. And Im happy for you guys that dosent agree with the OP.
Did you perchance notice the emotively loaded language used in your first paragraph? Do you understand that you're toying with conceptuals, with value judgements, with wild guesses and exaggerations, typical forum hyperbole? There isn't any data here, or in the OP's prediction.
Slippery slope. Mmorpg.com provides daily courses in writing it.
"Gather round me, disaffected people, and shout 'Me Too'! when I cue you." Demagoguery is a simple game.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I dont see what you are seeing. Could you please explain it a bit better maybe?
Data is humbug just as predictions
With a few exceptions, the virtual world style of MMO is dead. Ironically, the persistent world is one of the main defining features of MMORPGs, yet its importance has been eroded by the continual introduction of systems that favor casual, solo gameplay. Game developers want to maximize their playerbases, and in order to do that, they have to appeal to the masses, i.e. the casual player.
Unfortunately, that genie is out of the bottle, permanently. There are a handful of games that continue to buck the trend, but so far the genre is dominated by such mass-market games.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
You must know that forums of this site are full with enraged Guild Wars 2 fans. They won't like this op belive me, as GW2 is the game that trying to make a standard from those greedy "revolutionary" game mechanics. So this is directly against them, so be careful, my first post was deleted from those forums cause i said all those stuff but directly in the case of guild wars.
"souless husk"? No .. it is more fun now than before. The genre is tuning into lobby based co-op games which focus on fun, rather than useless sound good but boring virtual world mechanics like waiting.
If Brad knows what happened today, he will jump directly in front of the trend to make more money, and beat everyone to it. If not, some other will do it. There is always the innovative devs who sees what players want.
Which is great ... from my point of view. Sacrificing fun to focus on a virtual world is not consistent to the mission of games ... to entertain.
I am glad where the market is going.
I wouldn't say it is dead. The genre is just evolving. Some like the changes and some do not. Cash shops are pretty much standard because devs can get more money this way than just a sub fee. This is just the way it is now we either have to embrace it for what it is or just turn our backs on it. This has become an industry standard now.
I understand, what do you have in mind? Bearing in mind the context of the virtual world in question (e.g. take a fantasy world like GW2 or WoW), what forms would this virtual world content take?
For instance, when you talk about aquariums, I would think that you are referring to areas of beauty in a virtual world that really have no direct connection to a "Story" but nevertheless have been designed and exist in the virtual world to simply "be there and appreciated". A sort of "Easter Egg" for players to find and enjoy.
If I were dealing with GW2. First, Id get rid of cash shop items that supplemented crafting (the ones that change appearance, color, stats) and implement it into the actual crafting system.
Then I would decide on the amount of players I could hold per server and make permanent, not instanced housing in each major city. For example, if there are 4 major cities and 6000 players capped per server, I would construct a non instanced district in each city that had four to five large buildings which would total 1500 units for rent. Players could trade room and location and grab vacancies based on a recurring rental fee.
With housing comes furniture, art, music libraries, pets, cooking and plants. I would have crafting classes that accomidate all of those. From running a nursery to a pet breeder and all the stuff in between. Clothing would also be in that category and I would have a crafting class that specializes in creating aesthetic attire.
After that, I would tackle social spaces. All chairs can be sat in, all walls leaned up against. I would have a separate UI when im not in combat that has hotkeys for various moods, emotes, and customized chat scripts.
Then I would get rid of node farming and incorporate crafting and gathering into the dynamic event system. Maybe a mining town is under attack. If it is saved, you have access to metals for a period of time. Or perhaps a farm is ransacked and you help the people till their land in return you are rewarded with fresh fruits and vegetables to cook with. Sheep farms for tailors or exotic wares from random merchants. A special loom or forge owned by a specific local of an obscure village. Only available when certain criteria are met and scattered across the world.
Then I would put in a race of some sort. Each city has a track that snakes through its streets and once a day or week, players can purchase either a mount or vehicle made by a crafter or breeder and enter the race. Leaderboards for each city are regularly updated and better crafted or bred mounts contribute to your performance ie top speeds, handling, etc.
I would allow pubs to have music and dance customized by the players. Being able to grab a partner and swing them around, or get up on stage and change the tune. Have the ability to control lighting and various effects as well. Create moods in a social space.
Id also have a team sport of some kind. Think Huttball. Butinstead of having all of your combat moves and killing the other players, you have a set of physical abilities like duck, speed bost, tackle, shoot, pass, formations, audibles, etc. Have arenas in each major city and tournaments spread out over several circuits.
Theres more, but this is all going to get shot down anyway heh.
LOl .. really? If i want to play SIMS .. i go play SIMS or second life. This is a waste of resources for a combat centric GAME.
Oh, i won't refuse to play a game with housing, but i just don't care and if the combat/progression is not done well, i am out of here.
That's the point. The one thing that really separates MMORPGs from other games, from other RPGs specifically, is the persistent world inhabited by a massive concurrent population of players. The current trend is to eliminate the relevance of that persistent world, which makes little sense to me.
The concept of "fun" couldn't be any more subjective. To me, the virtual world/society was the fun of an MMO. Frankly, as far as fun is concerned, single-player and co-op games have superior game mechanics across the board when compared to MMOs, and are potentially a lot more "fun". Unfortunately, most current MMOs have devolved into single-player lobby games, without the benefit of those better mechanics.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Thing is people who want features like Foomerang do not want mmorpg's as combat centric only
Besides SIMS is also a game.
Another thing is that Sims does not offer combat and I get a feeling that Foomerang want BOTH combat and non-combat things. Plenty of both in one game.
Thing is people who want features like Foomerang do not want mmorpg's as combat centric only
Besides SIMS is also a game.
Another thing is that Sims does not offer combat and I get a feeling that Foomerang want BOTH combat and non-combat things. Plenty of both in one game.
Exactly. The more things you can do, the more types of people play. The more types of people play, the more diverse and interesting people you meet. The more diverse and interesting people you meet, the more rewarding a virtual world becomes. That is one huge plus to having a game with lots of valid playstyles.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche