I sympathize with the OP, but I'm tired of fighting this battle. When a critical mass of the community simply doesn't care about whether the relationship between customers and publishers is cooperative or adversarial, we just slowly lose the argument inch by inch.
My take on the current crop of MMOs being churned out is that they are all crap, and crap does not deserve any payment.
Now if there was a game I really wanted to play, not only would pay a sub, but I would pay far more than the standard 15 bucks.
Personally I don't care for f2p games because I don't like the feeling I'm getting bilked, and when I want to play a game I want to play the WHOLE game, not certain parts with missing tools. F2P/cashshop with a sub that offers all content is ideal IMO as it caters to everyone. See DDO for a working model
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
I don't mind F2P games, just not in the RPG or MMORPG genres, simply because of the cash shop. If the game was fully free to play, with no cash shop, that would be perfect obviously, but it wouldn't be sustainable. The issue i have is that having a cash shop in a roleplaying game absolutely destroys immersion. I want to be able to play and be immersed in a game and not have to worry about real-world finances. That's why I favour a subscription model - although it's a barrier to entry, you automatically pay at the start of a month and it's out of the way. You have unlimited access to the content and don't have to worry about how much you're paying and don't have to worry about any Pay-to-Win scenarios.
Related story: I logged into Everquest 2 after it went F2P, and logged into one of my old characters from years ago, who I remember having quite good gear for its level. As soon as I logged in, my character was naked, I had about 4 boxes pop up on the screen, one telling me that I had to buy items from the cash shop to 'enable' my items (which I had earned years ago whilst paying for the game), another telling me (everyime upon logging in) to upgrade to Gold edition or whatever. I instantly logged out and uninstalled the game. There's nothing that kills immersion more than that stuff, let alone having to pay to wear gear. I probably would have kept playing if it didn't shove the cash shop down your throat, though I wouldn't have spent any money.
Cash shops (the real issue under discussion), are here to stay. Suck it up.
Whether you pay nothing, pay for the box only, or pay a monthly sub will not affect the fact that basically every MMO (and almost every game of any type) will have cash shops, DLC, etc.
Of course, you are free to not use those shops. And you are free to stay away from games where people can buy stuff you don't think they should. Other than that, you are SOL.
Cash shops (the real issue under discussion), are here to stay. Suck it up.
Whether you pay nothing, pay for the box only, or pay a monthly sub will not affect the fact that basically every MMO (and almost every game of any type) will have cash shops, DLC, etc.
Of course, you are free to not use those shops. And you are free to stay away from games where people can buy stuff you don't think they should. Other than that, you are SOL.
I'm not denying that cash shops are on the rise, it's pretty evident and I can accept it. They'll probably be integral to the majority of MMOs; I'm just saying stating my preference for the subscription model. And, even though it's going 'out of fashion', I doubt it'll be a completely non-existent payment model. You'll probably see it in the occasional AAA title, though I doubt you'll see it in lesser-funded games which already have a limited audience.
I think, after SWTOR, subs will vanish completely.
Economically, subs do not allow companies to charge different prices to different customers[1], and they do not allow you to directly charge for new content very easily. For MMOs, there is another issue - the $15 sub hasn't changed since 2004. Could you charge a $25 sub for even a AAA MMO? I doubt it.
[1] Think about people buying cars, and paying extra for options. That is what you want as a business - the ability to charge each customer as much as possible.
Guild Wars 2 and Planetside 2 (not even a box price on this one) seem to be doing it the right way. XP Boosters, cosmetics, conveniece stuff. I have no issue with this.
When it starts to become a problem (not sure how much of an issue it will be) is when games like DUST 514 let you get certain weapons, armor, modules with CASH ONLY. Now, the weapon themselves may be only an extra +3 dmg or something, nothing gamebreaking I'd say, however..a lot of people won't like that (and in DUST you actually lose your shit ;p).
So..I'm not seeing much of an issue outside the companies who just want to rape people. I would have no issue spending 50 bucks on a F2P game if I found it was a good game and worth it on the cash shop.
Progression becomes pointless with F2P. If I can buy weapons, armor, where does it stop??
It's like cheating in a single-player game. It's fun running aorund with the best gear for 20 minutes, then it becomes boring. But in an MMO space, not only does doing that ruin the game for yourself, but for others too.
MMO companies wouldn't go F2P if they didn't think they could make money. The way it works is which the 'whale' system where 10% of players or whatever spend 90% of the money. Those 10% of players are the only ones who can enjoy the game fully, and they pay WAY WAY MORE than $15 a month.
----
Online Pass: Fine
Buying Cosmetic Gear: Fine
DLC: Fine
Expansions: Fine
Subscription: Fine
F2P Cash Shop where I can buy advantages, teleports, exp boosts, increase drop rates etc.. for real money: Not fine.
F2P means developers MAKE GAMES MORE BORING so you PAY to skip the boring things.
Progression becomes pointless with F2P. If I can buy weapons, armor, where does it stop??
It's like cheating in a single-player game. It's fun running aorund with the best gear for 20 minutes, then it becomes boring. But in an MMO space, not only does doing that ruin the game for yourself, but for others too.
MMO companies wouldn't go F2P if they didn't think they could make money. The way it works is which the 'whale' system where 10% of players or whatever spend 90% of the money. Those 10% of players are the only ones who can enjoy the game fully, and they pay WAY WAY MORE than $15 a month.
----
Online Pass: Fine
Buying Cosmetic Gear: Fine
DLC: Fine
Expansions: Fine
Subscription: Fine
F2P Cash Shop where I can buy advantages, teleports, exp boosts, increase drop rates etc.. for real money: Not fine.
F2P means developers MAKE GAMES MORE BORING so you PAY to skip the boring things.
Why should it bother you if you have 10 hours a day to play where I only have 3, yet I buy some XP boosters to help me? Why is that such an issue with people? It's not a race. It's not like I'm buying a "Rifle of Whoop-Ass" where I can headshot you from my spawn.
It's better than payiing 50+ just to find out the game is 3 hours long or it sucks and you can't do dick about it. The whole F2P makes games boring so you somehow "skip" content and that's why you buy it is silly to me. The games that do that anyway are the bad ones. Not all F2P game are MMOs btw, and you can't really skip content in an FPS or even RTS.
You people need to realise where all this F2P crap is heading... Its heading to a point where it will make the original point of playing games, for the sake of progressing a character in virtual world, never ever matter again if we support these companies churning out this type of pay model.
the original point of playing games is not: pay me every month $15 bucks for my game or go away... there can be progression in F2P games, just need the right publisher / dev. Also B2P fits much more in that original point thingy
I realise Gw2 is coming out and everyone is saying "oh well, Ill just buy the box and never use the cash shop"... That might be the case where you end up grinding gold and trading for gems or cash shop currency but they will make it so you will be grinding insane amounts of time into these games. farming gold to trade for gems.. Trust me, games will not be games anymore.
in P2P mmos you grind currency and boss loots for insane amounts of time to get the best gear just to trash it next season and rinse and repeat, so dont try to make F2P and B2P look like they are the grand daddies of grinding
Most of us play games to acquire loot and play through game content to attain the best gear and viritual characters we can with our time... "with your time"? or did you mean with your "grinding time" This newly refined pay model will take all the fun out of games, when I can just buy my progress... How pathetic.. paying for progression in a game. Why bother playing? that is true, very stupid idea, but not every f2P and b2p are like that. All of them should be b2p with no sub and be decent. Maybe I'm getting too old (33) and its the new era of stupid taking over. I just don't get how anyone can not see where this will end up for us, the end users of the games..
I don't know what else to say, and Im certain there is more articulate gamers out there who feel the same way and who also have the foresight to see 5 years down the road when everything is free to play but pay to win... I'm not supporting guildwars 2 not because of the pay model, but simply because the game is utterly boring. The pay model sealed the deal though as I would have normally bought the box and played for 30 days to see where the game ended up taking me.. but the pay model of pay to win left a sour taste in my mouth. And you can bet your bottom dollar, they will continually add things into that cash shop to milk the end users and after a few months you will be hooked and develop an emotional tie to your guilds and friends, and "oh so and so bought that content pack maybe I should too or I won't be able to play with them.."just another GW2 hater post. GW2 is not pay to win and yes its lots of fun and it removed the boring gear grind. I dont have anything else to say about GW2 hater posts. Each to their own, i guess. Ive been buying every subscription mmo and i like them all but i dont pay a single dime for them after my free month is up, so its obvious subscription is a letdown for me. (only WoW has had a few month of subs from my wallet, and only a few months then i stopped)
I'm telling you guys right now, this will not end well for gamers.... Don't support this garbage.. play the game all you want but don't spend a dime in those shops.. if its a respectable (no pay 2 win greedy dudes) company i would support it by buying some cosmetics and other things, but spending cash responsibly. Also, i dont support monthly subscription because once i purchase a game i should have the right to play it, subscription is a way to milk the players like cows and i do not support that idea of "the money you payed for the box dont count, pay monthly or get out of my game"... pretty stupid my very personal opinion.
We were younger once and lacked wisdom, we were young and thought we knew it all.... We had to learn things the hard way. We would ignore the wisdom of our peer's to our loss.
You cant teach wisdom... it's something that we pick up along the way.
Progression becomes pointless with F2P. If I can buy weapons, armor, where does it stop??
It's like cheating in a single-player game. It's fun running aorund with the best gear for 20 minutes, then it becomes boring. But in an MMO space, not only does doing that ruin the game for yourself, but for others too.
MMO companies wouldn't go F2P if they didn't think they could make money. The way it works is which the 'whale' system where 10% of players or whatever spend 90% of the money. Those 10% of players are the only ones who can enjoy the game fully, and they pay WAY WAY MORE than $15 a month.
----
Online Pass: Fine
Buying Cosmetic Gear: Fine
DLC: Fine
Expansions: Fine
Subscription: Fine
F2P Cash Shop where I can buy advantages, teleports, exp boosts, increase drop rates etc.. for real money: Not fine.
F2P means developers MAKE GAMES MORE BORING so you PAY to skip the boring things.
lol at this..... specially the last sentence....
If i decide to go back to WoW is for the Lore, Rift for the upcoming giant bosses, TERA for the graphics, TSW for the lovecraft and dark settings, SWTOR for the star wars story. Everything else is boring in those games..... too much money for the same grind found in F2P + cash shop + subsctiption + box sale + expansion sale. I have all those games i mentioned and im going to be too busy with GW2 to pay a sub to get bored. Just my personal opinion just like your post is your personal opinion.
For those who can't read.. Don't support free to play, because nothing is free and you will pay more in the long run.
All data for the past five or so years says you're wrong. Not that facts will ever get in the way of uninformed tirades based on fear of change, but I figured I'd throw that out there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
For starters, free to play MMOs are extremely important. Why? Because they allow people in the sucky economy we live in today a chance to play MMOs. So what if they have cash shops that you don't like? Nobody is forcing you to use them. Just play another free to play game. Or better yet, play a free to play MMO with a cash shop that allows you to use currency that you don't have to buy, but can earn via surveys or use an in game currency to trade for said cash shop currency. And yes, some people CAN'T spend $0.50 a day for thirty days to play a game, so thanks for singling out that demographic jerk.
Second, the grinding required for the trading of cash shop currency is blown WAY out of proportion. It is actually about as grindy as the amount of grinding you need to do in free to play games to get some special faction gear, give or take.
Third, that kind of cash shop doesn't exist in MMORPGs, just MMOFPSs where said progress doesn't even exist, and even then, the weapon doesn't necessarily give you an edge, as good equipment is useless without the skill necessary to use them to their full extent (then again, I heard that Alganon does have cash shop armor and weapons, but then again Alganon is an example of how not to do an MMO). Most cash shops only give the illusion of progress, offering weapon and armor skins that make your current armor look like awesome endgame raid-grind armor without actually having its stats. Otherwise, they just offer stuff like xp boosts and other stuff that only gives you an edge if you are skilled enough.
Your fears regarding F2P games are completely misplaced and misinformed.
It is common knowledge that most mmo players don't pay and few whales are subsidizing everyone else. I am more than happy if someone else is willing to pay for my gaming.
There are enough fun f2p games that i doubt i will ever sub for a new mmo.
Originally posted by nariusseldon It is common knowledge that most mmo players don't pay and few whales are subsidizing everyone else. I am more than happy if someone else is willing to pay for my gaming. There are enough fun f2p games that i doubt i will ever sub for a new mmo. F2p is the trend and the way to go.
Not common enough, apparently, if someone can recite the same old "you'll end up paying way more in F2P than in a sub game!" and incite 8 pages of ranting.
Comments
I sympathize with the OP, but I'm tired of fighting this battle. When a critical mass of the community simply doesn't care about whether the relationship between customers and publishers is cooperative or adversarial, we just slowly lose the argument inch by inch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law
With the failure of SW:TOR, big budget MMO's with a subscription are a thing of he past unfortunately.
Who are you calling, "You people"?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The OP has a point, to an extent.
My take on the current crop of MMOs being churned out is that they are all crap, and crap does not deserve any payment.
Now if there was a game I really wanted to play, not only would pay a sub, but I would pay far more than the standard 15 bucks.
Personally I don't care for f2p games because I don't like the feeling I'm getting bilked, and when I want to play a game I want to play the WHOLE game, not certain parts with missing tools. F2P/cashshop with a sub that offers all content is ideal IMO as it caters to everyone. See DDO for a working model
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
I don't mind F2P games, just not in the RPG or MMORPG genres, simply because of the cash shop. If the game was fully free to play, with no cash shop, that would be perfect obviously, but it wouldn't be sustainable. The issue i have is that having a cash shop in a roleplaying game absolutely destroys immersion. I want to be able to play and be immersed in a game and not have to worry about real-world finances. That's why I favour a subscription model - although it's a barrier to entry, you automatically pay at the start of a month and it's out of the way. You have unlimited access to the content and don't have to worry about how much you're paying and don't have to worry about any Pay-to-Win scenarios.
Related story: I logged into Everquest 2 after it went F2P, and logged into one of my old characters from years ago, who I remember having quite good gear for its level. As soon as I logged in, my character was naked, I had about 4 boxes pop up on the screen, one telling me that I had to buy items from the cash shop to 'enable' my items (which I had earned years ago whilst paying for the game), another telling me (everyime upon logging in) to upgrade to Gold edition or whatever. I instantly logged out and uninstalled the game. There's nothing that kills immersion more than that stuff, let alone having to pay to wear gear. I probably would have kept playing if it didn't shove the cash shop down your throat, though I wouldn't have spent any money.
Cash shops (the real issue under discussion), are here to stay. Suck it up.
Whether you pay nothing, pay for the box only, or pay a monthly sub will not affect the fact that basically every MMO (and almost every game of any type) will have cash shops, DLC, etc.
Of course, you are free to not use those shops. And you are free to stay away from games where people can buy stuff you don't think they should. Other than that, you are SOL.
I'm not denying that cash shops are on the rise, it's pretty evident and I can accept it. They'll probably be integral to the majority of MMOs; I'm just saying stating my preference for the subscription model. And, even though it's going 'out of fashion', I doubt it'll be a completely non-existent payment model. You'll probably see it in the occasional AAA title, though I doubt you'll see it in lesser-funded games which already have a limited audience.
Free-to-play is here to stay. Adapt or be marginalized.
I think, after SWTOR, subs will vanish completely.
Economically, subs do not allow companies to charge different prices to different customers[1], and they do not allow you to directly charge for new content very easily. For MMOs, there is another issue - the $15 sub hasn't changed since 2004. Could you charge a $25 sub for even a AAA MMO? I doubt it.
[1] Think about people buying cars, and paying extra for options. That is what you want as a business - the ability to charge each customer as much as possible.
I completely agree metatronic.
The future of gaming is a bright and shining nightmare.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
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"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
Nothing wrong with F2P if done correctly.
Guild Wars 2 and Planetside 2 (not even a box price on this one) seem to be doing it the right way. XP Boosters, cosmetics, conveniece stuff. I have no issue with this.
When it starts to become a problem (not sure how much of an issue it will be) is when games like DUST 514 let you get certain weapons, armor, modules with CASH ONLY. Now, the weapon themselves may be only an extra +3 dmg or something, nothing gamebreaking I'd say, however..a lot of people won't like that (and in DUST you actually lose your shit ;p).
So..I'm not seeing much of an issue outside the companies who just want to rape people. I would have no issue spending 50 bucks on a F2P game if I found it was a good game and worth it on the cash shop.
Progression becomes pointless with F2P. If I can buy weapons, armor, where does it stop??
It's like cheating in a single-player game. It's fun running aorund with the best gear for 20 minutes, then it becomes boring. But in an MMO space, not only does doing that ruin the game for yourself, but for others too.
MMO companies wouldn't go F2P if they didn't think they could make money. The way it works is which the 'whale' system where 10% of players or whatever spend 90% of the money. Those 10% of players are the only ones who can enjoy the game fully, and they pay WAY WAY MORE than $15 a month.
----
Online Pass: Fine
Buying Cosmetic Gear: Fine
DLC: Fine
Expansions: Fine
Subscription: Fine
F2P Cash Shop where I can buy advantages, teleports, exp boosts, increase drop rates etc.. for real money: Not fine.
F2P means developers MAKE GAMES MORE BORING so you PAY to skip the boring things.
Why should it bother you if you have 10 hours a day to play where I only have 3, yet I buy some XP boosters to help me? Why is that such an issue with people? It's not a race. It's not like I'm buying a "Rifle of Whoop-Ass" where I can headshot you from my spawn.
It's better than payiing 50+ just to find out the game is 3 hours long or it sucks and you can't do dick about it. The whole F2P makes games boring so you somehow "skip" content and that's why you buy it is silly to me. The games that do that anyway are the bad ones. Not all F2P game are MMOs btw, and you can't really skip content in an FPS or even RTS.
the greens are my answers to the yellow parts.
@OP
We were younger once and lacked wisdom, we were young and thought we knew it all.... We had to learn things the hard way. We would ignore the wisdom of our peer's to our loss.
You cant teach wisdom... it's something that we pick up along the way.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Have you noticed that most F2P games are garbage now anyways and for the big titles that used to be sub only.
I could never play a EQ1 & 2, Lotro, AoC, CoX and Aion with limitations.
I will just use F2P games to entertain my kids and nephews if they get bored.
lol at this..... specially the last sentence....
If i decide to go back to WoW is for the Lore, Rift for the upcoming giant bosses, TERA for the graphics, TSW for the lovecraft and dark settings, SWTOR for the star wars story. Everything else is boring in those games..... too much money for the same grind found in F2P + cash shop + subsctiption + box sale + expansion sale. I have all those games i mentioned and im going to be too busy with GW2 to pay a sub to get bored. Just my personal opinion just like your post is your personal opinion.
All data for the past five or so years says you're wrong. Not that facts will ever get in the way of uninformed tirades based on fear of change, but I figured I'd throw that out there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Wow. Just wow.
For starters, free to play MMOs are extremely important. Why? Because they allow people in the sucky economy we live in today a chance to play MMOs. So what if they have cash shops that you don't like? Nobody is forcing you to use them. Just play another free to play game. Or better yet, play a free to play MMO with a cash shop that allows you to use currency that you don't have to buy, but can earn via surveys or use an in game currency to trade for said cash shop currency. And yes, some people CAN'T spend $0.50 a day for thirty days to play a game, so thanks for singling out that demographic jerk.
Second, the grinding required for the trading of cash shop currency is blown WAY out of proportion. It is actually about as grindy as the amount of grinding you need to do in free to play games to get some special faction gear, give or take.
Third, that kind of cash shop doesn't exist in MMORPGs, just MMOFPSs where said progress doesn't even exist, and even then, the weapon doesn't necessarily give you an edge, as good equipment is useless without the skill necessary to use them to their full extent (then again, I heard that Alganon does have cash shop armor and weapons, but then again Alganon is an example of how not to do an MMO). Most cash shops only give the illusion of progress, offering weapon and armor skins that make your current armor look like awesome endgame raid-grind armor without actually having its stats. Otherwise, they just offer stuff like xp boosts and other stuff that only gives you an edge if you are skilled enough.
Your fears regarding F2P games are completely misplaced and misinformed.
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
Stop all this F2P madness... nodody ever threaten a messenger, this is madness.
I choose my words carefully Persian, THYS IS SPARTA (free to play) (free to replay)
PAF...!! PIF..!!! falling down a random spartan -pit ....
There are enough fun f2p games that i doubt i will ever sub for a new mmo.
F2p is the trend and the way to go.
Not common enough, apparently, if someone can recite the same old "you'll end up paying way more in F2P than in a sub game!" and incite 8 pages of ranting.
Pricing models will always change to get the best return. The whole point is to make more cash, period.
F2P today, something else tomorow.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee