Originally posted by KingJiggly Originally posted by Adalwulff Originally posted by miscrpgdude Originally posted by Adalwulff Originally posted by miscrpgdude Originally posted by Adalwulff Whats really funny is how they ignore the need for supply, whenever I bring it up, they simply ignore it and stick to thier claim that buying gold will ruin GW2.They just dont get it do they?
Nobody is ignoring it, its simply quite obvious that YOU don't get it.
Normally the ability to gain the advantage provided by Siege Weapons is limited by 2 factors, 1) gold, and 2) supply. When you remove one of these limitations - regardless of how small that limitation may or may not turn out to be - you are effectively altering the balance. This is and always has been described as a P2W effect.
There is no argument to be made that it is not. Some people it doesn't bother, others it does but there is no doubt that WvW is P2W.
Personally I don't care, I don't plan on taking part so no real skin off my nose.
Although I do wish they simply had a monthly subscription server where there was no gem-gold interaction.
Wait, what part didnt I get? You mean that seige does not need supply? Those walls and gates are not rebuilt with supply?
I dont get what your saying.... I have never seen anything repaired with gold
What your clearly not getting is that the need for supply is utterly irrelevent to the change in balance caused by gold availablity.
It changes the degree of effect that buying gold causes but it does not change either the principle or the functional reality that spending money gives you a measurable advanatage in WvW.
Then clearly you havent PvPed against a tough enemy who constantly takes out your supply camps.
Not to mention the amount of players it takes to supply and man all those siege weapons you got, seems you have a lot more to worry about than gold. I dont believe you have given this much thought.
Pf course I have. Avoid the Zerg, go guardian with lots of spirit weapons, works great. Guardian kind of op, so I may have to change. I am not an idiot, I just don't plan to face 1000 people head on like some people think they can... I much prefer to go around them.
So your purposly avoiding 95% of what the WvW has to offer, and you want Anet to make it easier for you to do it?
Right, good luck with that.
Lol... I can solo cap a supply depot... I can solo cap those command centers... I can do dynamic events that will help my team. I am doing more than just running to the closest crossed swords. So maybe you are missing the 95 %. Also, worry about what you do than what I do. I help my team my way you help yours your way. And also, I said they should make it easier for noobs to get money. Whether they lower the lvls a bit or they raise the award for doing these events, they need to make it easier. Don't act like you know more about this game than me, becuase neither one of us have played it long enough to make that decision.
Whats really funny is how they ignore the need for supply, whenever I bring it up, they simply ignore it and stick to thier claim that buying gold will ruin GW2.
They just dont get it do they?
Nobody is ignoring it, its simply quite obvious that YOU don't get it.
Normally the ability to gain the advantage provided by Siege Weapons is limited by 2 factors, 1) gold, and 2) supply. When you remove one of these limitations - regardless of how small that limitation may or may not turn out to be - you are effectively altering the balance. This is and always has been described as a P2W effect.
There is no argument to be made that it is not. Some people it doesn't bother, others it does but there is no doubt that WvW is P2W.
Personally I don't care, I don't plan on taking part so no real skin off my nose.
Although I do wish they simply had a monthly subscription server where there was no gem-gold interaction.
Wait, what part didnt I get? You mean that seige does not need supply? Those walls and gates are not rebuilt with supply?
I dont get what your saying.... I have never seen anything repaired with gold
What your clearly not getting is that the need for supply is utterly irrelevent to the change in balance caused by gold availablity.
It changes the degree of effect that buying gold causes but it does not change either the principle or the functional reality that spending money gives you a measurable advanatage in WvW.
Then clearly you havent PvPed against a tough enemy who constantly takes out your supply camps.
Not to mention the amount of players it takes to supply and man all those siege weapons you got, seems you have a lot more to worry about than gold. I dont believe you have given this much thought.
Pf course I have. Avoid the Zerg, go guardian with lots of spirit weapons, works great. Guardian kind of op, so I may have to change. I am not an idiot, I just don't plan to face 1000 people head on like some people think they can... I much prefer to go around them.
So your purposly avoiding 95% of what the WvW has to offer, and you want Anet to make it easier for you to do it?
Right, good luck with that.
Lol... I can solo cap a supply depot... I can solo cap those command centers... I can do dynamic events that will help my team. I am doing more than just running to the closest crossed swords. So maybe you are missing the 95 %. Also, worry about what you do than what I do. I help my team my way you help yours your way. And also, I said they should make it easier for noobs to get money. Whether they lower the lvls a bit or they raise the award for doing these events, they need to make it easier. Don't act like you know more about this game than me, becuase neither one of us have played it long enough to make that decision.
So thats your first hour, what do you do the rest of the time?
Originally posted by KingJiggly Originally posted by Adalwulff Originally posted by KingJiggly Originally posted by Adalwulff Originally posted by miscrpgdude Originally posted by Adalwulff Originally posted by miscrpgdude Originally posted by Adalwulff Whats really funny is how they ignore the need for supply, whenever I bring it up, they simply ignore it and stick to thier claim that buying gold will ruin GW2.They just dont get it do they?
Nobody is ignoring it, its simply quite obvious that YOU don't get it.
Normally the ability to gain the advantage provided by Siege Weapons is limited by 2 factors, 1) gold, and 2) supply. When you remove one of these limitations - regardless of how small that limitation may or may not turn out to be - you are effectively altering the balance. This is and always has been described as a P2W effect.
There is no argument to be made that it is not. Some people it doesn't bother, others it does but there is no doubt that WvW is P2W.
Personally I don't care, I don't plan on taking part so no real skin off my nose.
Although I do wish they simply had a monthly subscription server where there was no gem-gold interaction.
Wait, what part didnt I get? You mean that seige does not need supply? Those walls and gates are not rebuilt with supply?
I dont get what your saying.... I have never seen anything repaired with gold
What your clearly not getting is that the need for supply is utterly irrelevent to the change in balance caused by gold availablity.
It changes the degree of effect that buying gold causes but it does not change either the principle or the functional reality that spending money gives you a measurable advanatage in WvW.
Then clearly you havent PvPed against a tough enemy who constantly takes out your supply camps.
Not to mention the amount of players it takes to supply and man all those siege weapons you got, seems you have a lot more to worry about than gold. I dont believe you have given this much thought.
Pf course I have. Avoid the Zerg, go guardian with lots of spirit weapons, works great. Guardian kind of op, so I may have to change. I am not an idiot, I just don't plan to face 1000 people head on like some people think they can... I much prefer to go around them.
So your purposly avoiding 95% of what the WvW has to offer, and you want Anet to make it easier for you to do it?
Right, good luck with that.
Lol... I can solo cap a supply depot... I can solo cap those command centers... I can do dynamic events that will help my team. I am doing more than just running to the closest crossed swords. So maybe you are missing the 95 %. Also, worry about what you do than what I do. I help my team my way you help yours your way. And also, I said they should make it easier for noobs to get money. Whether they lower the lvls a bit or they raise the award for doing these events, they need to make it easier. Don't act like you know more about this game than me, becuase neither one of us have played it long enough to make that decision.
So thats your first hour, what do you do the rest of the time?
So your saying I can do all that in an hour? How bout you go Zerg some more with your friends and we will see who is more repetitive.
Whats really funny is how they ignore the need for supply, whenever I bring it up, they simply ignore it and stick to thier claim that buying gold will ruin GW2.
They just dont get it do they?
Nobody is ignoring it, its simply quite obvious that YOU don't get it.
Normally the ability to gain the advantage provided by Siege Weapons is limited by 2 factors, 1) gold, and 2) supply. When you remove one of these limitations - regardless of how small that limitation may or may not turn out to be - you are effectively altering the balance. This is and always has been described as a P2W effect.
There is no argument to be made that it is not. Some people it doesn't bother, others it does but there is no doubt that WvW is P2W.
Personally I don't care, I don't plan on taking part so no real skin off my nose.
Although I do wish they simply had a monthly subscription server where there was no gem-gold interaction.
Wait, what part didnt I get? You mean that seige does not need supply? Those walls and gates are not rebuilt with supply?
I dont get what your saying.... I have never seen anything repaired with gold
What your clearly not getting is that the need for supply is utterly irrelevent to the change in balance caused by gold availablity.
It changes the degree of effect that buying gold causes but it does not change either the principle or the functional reality that spending money gives you a measurable advanatage in WvW.
Then clearly you havent PvPed against a tough enemy who constantly takes out your supply camps.
Not to mention the amount of players it takes to supply and man all those siege weapons you got, seems you have a lot more to worry about than gold. I dont believe you have given this much thought.
Pf course I have. Avoid the Zerg, go guardian with lots of spirit weapons, works great. Guardian kind of op, so I may have to change. I am not an idiot, I just don't plan to face 1000 people head on like some people think they can... I much prefer to go around them.
So your purposly avoiding 95% of what the WvW has to offer, and you want Anet to make it easier for you to do it?
Right, good luck with that.
Lol... I can solo cap a supply depot... I can solo cap those command centers... I can do dynamic events that will help my team. I am doing more than just running to the closest crossed swords. So maybe you are missing the 95 %. Also, worry about what you do than what I do. I help my team my way you help yours your way. And also, I said they should make it easier for noobs to get money. Whether they lower the lvls a bit or they raise the award for doing these events, they need to make it easier. Don't act like you know more about this game than me, becuase neither one of us have played it long enough to make that decision.
So thats your first hour, what do you do the rest of the time?
So your saying I can do all that in an hour? How bout you go Zerg some more with your friends and we will see who is more repetitive.
I finished in less time, but thats me.
After that, my small band of patriots took over supply routes and took out scragglers. Players just like you actually, all alone, they didnt know what him them...hehe
The OP isn't even clear that his Mr. Moneybags won in the end. It sounded like he delayed things. Sounded like the player had a lot of fun doing this for people. I don't see any "instant win".
No we didn't "win". We went from holding nothing to holding 4 towers, a keep and two supply camps (around 1/3rd of the map) and stayed pretty much that way until the bug shut WvW down... which was fortunate because the 10,000 enemy reinforcements were nuking my poor team off the map.
From that point on we were kind of stuck and could move left or right and take a tower or two and a supply camp but didn't have the numbers to push past the much larger enemy numbers.
To give you an idea of how under populated the server I'm on is, I have never had to queue to get into WvW once for the whole weekend.
Originally posted by Shroom_Mage Once everyone is 80 you'll be limited more by supply, and the gold costs will feel more like a money sink than a restriction.
I do wish they'd change the cost of the commander title to medals, though. Gold doesn't demonstrate WvW experience at all, which means that any clown who farmed enough PvE (or bought enough gems), to pretend like he's some kind of leader.
Also, don't forget that when someone does this sort of thing, it decreases the gold cost of gems, making it easier for everyone to buy more important things like character slots and bank tabs.
So the more people that spend RL money on gems the cheaper they become, the more Arenanet makes money and the more the avergae player also has to spend RL money just to keep up with other players yes cost will go down while need to buy goes up. Interesting tactic Arenanet has for making money and i bet it will succeed for them. After all they won't say they are selling power ups for RL money but when it makes this much of a difference in battle they really are.
Originally posted by Shroom_Mage Once everyone is 80 you'll be limited more by supply, and the gold costs will feel more like a money sink than a restriction.
I do wish they'd change the cost of the commander title to medals, though. Gold doesn't demonstrate WvW experience at all, which means that any clown who farmed enough PvE (or bought enough gems), to pretend like he's some kind of leader.
Also, don't forget that when someone does this sort of thing, it decreases the gold cost of gems, making it easier for everyone to buy more important things like character slots and bank tabs.
So the more people that spend RL money on gems the cheaper they become, the more Arenanet makes money and the more the avergae player also has to spend RL money just to keep up with other players yes cost will go down while need to buy goes up. Interesting tactic Arenanet has for making money and i bet it will succeed for them. After all they won't say they are selling power ups for RL money but when it makes this much of a difference in battle they really are.
Not quite, if the cost go down the supply goes up, because now everyone has a boat load of gems and gold. And once again your down to supply.
If what your really against is game devs making money, then I think your in the wrong hobby. You can try stamp collecting, I hear that is a real challenge.
that's how I ended up naked. But yes, I am, becuase Anet have stated they are trying to make it solo friendly by adding control points with a single defending npc. So yes I am and will continue doing so.
For irony's sake? Like a Steve Martin bit? Or for serious?
I'm sure he's serious. This build they added Solo friendly objectives to WvWvW. He was probably trying to attempt them.
Whats really funny is how they ignore the need for supply, whenever I bring it up, they simply ignore it and stick to thier claim that buying gold will ruin GW2.
They just dont get it do they?
Nobody is ignoring it, its simply quite obvious that YOU don't get it.
Normally the ability to gain the advantage provided by Siege Weapons is limited by 2 factors, 1) gold, and 2) supply. When you remove one of these limitations - regardless of how small that limitation may or may not turn out to be - you are effectively altering the balance. This is and always has been described as a P2W effect.
There is no argument to be made that it is not. Some people it doesn't bother, others it does but there is no doubt that WvW is P2W.
Personally I don't care, I don't plan on taking part so no real skin off my nose.
Although I do wish they simply had a monthly subscription server where there was no gem-gold interaction.
Wait, what part didnt I get? You mean that seige does not need supply? Those walls and gates are not rebuilt with supply?
I dont get what your saying.... I have never seen anything repaired with gold
What your clearly not getting is that the need for supply is utterly irrelevent to the change in balance caused by gold availablity.
It changes the degree of effect that buying gold causes but it does not change either the principle or the functional reality that spending money gives you a measurable advanatage in WvW.
Then clearly you havent PvPed against a tough enemy who constantly takes out your supply camps.
Not to mention the amount of players it takes to supply and man all those siege weapons you got, seems you have a lot more to worry about than gold. I dont believe you have given this much thought.
Pf course I have. Avoid the Zerg, go guardian with lots of spirit weapons, works great. Guardian kind of op, so I may have to change. I am not an idiot, I just don't plan to face 1000 people head on like some people think they can... I much prefer to go around them.
So your purposly avoiding 95% of what the WvW has to offer, and you want Anet to make it easier for you to do it?
Right, good luck with that.
Lol... I can solo cap a supply depot... I can solo cap those command centers... I can do dynamic events that will help my team. I am doing more than just running to the closest crossed swords. So maybe you are missing the 95 %. Also, worry about what you do than what I do. I help my team my way you help yours your way. And also, I said they should make it easier for noobs to get money. Whether they lower the lvls a bit or they raise the award for doing these events, they need to make it easier. Don't act like you know more about this game than me, becuase neither one of us have played it long enough to make that decision.
So thats your first hour, what do you do the rest of the time?
So your saying I can do all that in an hour? How bout you go Zerg some more with your friends and we will see who is more repetitive.
I finished in less time, but thats me.
After that, my small band of patriots took over supply routes and took out scragglers. Players just like you actually, all alone, they didnt know what him them...hehe
Woah...is this what I think it is?
#TeamVainlash Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...
Because if you had you would realize that supply is seldom an issue. Once you have the mindest to always grab supply, you always have it. Gold on the other hand you can't really get in WvWvW unless you take time away from PvP and objectives to do it.
I expect this to change as the game matures, but at launch a small coordinated group with unlimited gold can faceroll much large uncoordinated groups. We held off 50+ at one point with a group of six. 4 arrow carts and oil = gg.
No.. I have never played the WvW...
That's what I thought. So why are you posting like you have a clue what you are talking about?
You don't have the experience in WvWvW to add anything to the discussion. All you can possibly do is mislead people.
The fact is that small groups of dedicated PvP players who are willing to use the cash shop are going to have a huge impact on WvWvW at launch. I would even go so far to say that if you don't but gems for WvWvW at launch, you are gimping yourself.
kind of sad that GW2 hiding its greed behind F2P model (((
And that's it. Other than the puchase price of the client, GW2's model is that of a F2P game. It's just as "pay to win" as any other F2P game. The items in the store are certainly not all cosmetic.
It looks to me like you've never played a game with a P2W cash shop. If you had you wouldn't be making statements just like this. You wouldn't by any chance prefer P2P games, would you?
so the guy brought about 30,000 gems and still didnt win
Oh yea, pay to win totally, yep,mmmmhmmm
if just one guy can make that much difference though, imagine what it would have been like if there had been half a dozen, or a dozen even, doing the same thing.. unless people do the same on the opposing side then, i can imagine that the outcome would have been far less than clear cut, it might even have reversed the outcome completely.
so the guy brought about 30,000 gems and still didnt win
Oh yea, pay to win totally, yep,mmmmhmmm
if just one guy can make that much difference though, imagine what it would have been like if there had been half a dozen, or a dozen even, doing the same thing.. unless people do the same on the opposing side then, i can imagine that the outcome would have been far less than clear cut, it might even have reversed the outcome completely.
Likely there would be no difference whatsoever. Law of diminishing returns. Once you've reached your cap in gold, any more gold will not bring you any more noticeable benefits. In GW2 WvW you have a number of bottlenecks: gold, supply, player bodies. Once you've added unlimited gold, you are still limited by supply and player bodies, and you can't buy those with gems or gold.
Also, filling the gold cap doesn't seem to be hard even without buying gems for higher levels.
Nice to see that another TSW fanboi has started a thread trying to take GW2 down a notch. Too bad that TSW can't hold peoples attention long enough so they need to try and belittle all the other games to make theirs look like it's worth spending money on.
So yeah, in the first day, the game clearly could be pay 2 win! Nice discovery Einstein! Make sure you write a book about it.
Im not playing TSW, but i can tell you now this: TSW will be MMO of the year and not gw2. back to the Pay to win topic, if you take a look at the shop you´ll find ¨50% boost¨ for everything even a ¨50% epic drop boost¨, thats pay to win.
I think you need to do some thinking about what is "winning". Yes that player has some items sooner than you and may get better drops, but how does that affect you, and how does he win from other players?
Sure if your metagame is the economy or getting as many items as possible (that have little to no influence on the relative power a player has gameplay wise) then you may have an argument.
But as it stands it doesn't win anything in competetive pvp (no buffs working there, everyone maxed in gear and stats) and in WvW it will balance out because every server will have some people spending cash in the shop to get boosts so earn gold faster and can buy siege equipment faster and even if some servers have all the rich guys they'll be matched against eachother when rebalancing the matches against other servers to be relatively the same in power.
And I think it's laughable if you think someone can win over other players in a cooperative pve environment where there's no progresion raiding so also no server firsts to brag about.
so the guy brought about 30,000 gems and still didnt win
Oh yea, pay to win totally, yep,mmmmhmmm
if just one guy can make that much difference though, imagine what it would have been like if there had been half a dozen, or a dozen even, doing the same thing.. unless people do the same on the opposing side then, i can imagine that the outcome would have been far less than clear cut, it might even have reversed the outcome completely.
True, but I simply cannot see enough people doing this on such an extended basis that it will ever be an issue that is more then maybe a blip now and again.
This was beta, the guy could throw $1000 (or whatever) at the cash shop and blow it in this way in one sitting simply because he knew he would be getting that money back at launch.
Who is honestly going going to burn 30k Gems (or whatever) daily on every battle?
The OP isn't even clear that his Mr. Moneybags won in the end. It sounded like he delayed things. Sounded like the player had a lot of fun doing this for people. I don't see any "instant win".
No we didn't "win". We went from holding nothing to holding 4 towers, a keep and two supply camps (around 1/3rd of the map) and stayed pretty much that way until the bug shut WvW down... which was fortunate because the 10,000 enemy reinforcements were nuking my poor team off the map.
From that point on we were kind of stuck and could move left or right and take a tower or two and a supply camp but didn't have the numbers to push past the much larger enemy numbers.
To give you an idea of how under populated the server I'm on is, I have never had to queue to get into WvW once for the whole weekend.
Sure this is a problem when you're all level 1 and make 13 copper of a dynamic event in 10 minutes :P You have to take the income of a level 80 into account, which, if it's anything like in any other average MMO, will be astronomically higher. I wouldn't be surprised if 1g was pocket money, especially if you take market trading into account.
And btw, 100gems for 50 silver is a very very bad ratio. Isn't the other way around something like 125 gems for 14 silver? It's rather silly to waste real money this way on something as short lasting as taking a keep. The player didn't win.. he lost, hard.
So somebody on your side bought tons of gold, then bought tons of seige eqiupment and you were still unable to win. How is this pay to win if you lost?
Obviously nothing except an acutal "I win button" would be literally P2W.
However this more along the lines of pay for a massive advantage at launch. Which is what it will be if you Buy Gems to trade for gold.
It will remain to seen if this advantage will conitune past the first intial few weeks. What I can say from all my WvWvW experience is at least intially, it will be a huge advantage. You can even buy double supply.
Gems can't get sold for gold without other players spending that gold. If a guy actually managed to get the commander book in this beta I'm guessing he is a guild leader and got guild funded.
You can buy siege weapons, including the Golem for Marks of Honor that drop from players killed in WvWvW. Had enoughf or golem after about 400 kills.
Went to WvWvW at level 10 with 11 silver. Now at level 20 I have 30 silver, bought the trait book and repair regularly, haven't done any quests outside of WvWvW after level 10.
Gems can't get sold for gold without other players spending that gold. If a guy actually managed to get the commander book in this beta I'm guessing he is a guild leader and got guild funded.
You can buy siege weapons, including the Golem for Marks of Honor that drop from players killed in WvWvW. Had enoughf or golem after about 400 kills.
Went to WvWvW at level 10 with 11 silver. Now at level 20 I have 30 silver, bought the trait book and repair regularly, haven't done any quests outside of WvWvW after level 10.
So yeah. Sorry. But I don't buy it.
I bought a bunch of blueprints. I upgraded supply depots. Doubling their supply and increasing the number of guards. I upgraded keeps walls and hired extra workers to make upgrades go faster. I bought cannons for walls.
I also while not in WvWvW bought the gems I needed to slot my gear.
I think you need to do some thinking about what is "winning". Yes that player has some items sooner than you and may get better drops, but how does that affect you, and how does he win from other players?
Personally I don't even play MMO's as multiplayer games anymore. But I am so tired of reading this absurd attempt at rationalizing the reality of a P2W mechanic. Different people feel differently about types of competition. Some people set goals for thems or "compete" with other like minded individuals in different ways. Their individual playstyles are no less valid then the one that you are interested in. Not only can it affect their ability to "compete" in these ways but it can completely make any kind of real competition impossible.
In other words it DOES have an effect on their ability to enjoy the games.
Originally posted by lilHeala
Sure if your metagame is the economy or getting as many items as possible (that have little to no influence on the relative power a player has gameplay wise) then you may have an argument.
Exactly, if someone enjoys seeing how much gold they can accumulate relative to others then it absolutley does affect them.
Originally posted by lilHeala But as it stands it doesn't win anything in competetive pvp (no buffs working there, everyone maxed in gear and stats) and in WvW it will balance out because every server will have some people spending cash in the shop to get boosts so earn gold faster and can buy siege equipment faster and even if some servers have all the rich guys they'll be matched against eachother when rebalancing the matches against other servers to be relatively the same in power
This is absurd, because there will be people on both sides doing it, it will balance out? Thats assinine and utterly irrelevent to the spirit of fair competition.
Originally posted by lilHeala And I think it's laughable if you think someone can win over other players in a cooperative pve environment where there's no progresion raiding so also no server firsts to brag about.
I can pretty much guarantee there will be server firsts for many things.
Because if you had you would realize that supply is seldom an issue. Once you have the mindest to always grab supply, you always have it. Gold on the other hand you can't really get in WvWvW unless you take time away from PvP and objectives to do it.
I expect this to change as the game matures, but at launch a small coordinated group with unlimited gold can faceroll much large uncoordinated groups. We held off 50+ at one point with a group of six. 4 arrow carts and oil = gg.
No.. I have never played the WvW...
That's what I thought. So why are you posting like you have a clue what you are talking about?
You don't have the experience in WvWvW to add anything to the discussion. All you can possibly do is mislead people.
The fact is that small groups of dedicated PvP players who are willing to use the cash shop are going to have a huge impact on WvWvW at launch. I would even go so far to say that if you don't but gems for WvWvW at launch, you are gimping yourself.
Why did you only quote a part of my post? That part was sarcasm, the rest of it explained what I thought of your lame P2W arguement.
Because if you had you would realize that supply is seldom an issue. Once you have the mindest to always grab supply, you always have it. Gold on the other hand you can't really get in WvWvW unless you take time away from PvP and objectives to do it.
I expect this to change as the game matures, but at launch a small coordinated group with unlimited gold can faceroll much large uncoordinated groups. We held off 50+ at one point with a group of six. 4 arrow carts and oil = gg.
No.. I have never played the WvW...
That's what I thought. So why are you posting like you have a clue what you are talking about?
You don't have the experience in WvWvW to add anything to the discussion. All you can possibly do is mislead people.
The fact is that small groups of dedicated PvP players who are willing to use the cash shop are going to have a huge impact on WvWvW at launch. I would even go so far to say that if you don't but gems for WvWvW at launch, you are gimping yourself.
Why did you only quote a part of my post? That part was sarcasm, the rest of it explained what I thought of your lame P2W arguement.
[mod edit]
I am not claiming P2W, I'm claiming Pay for a substaintable advantage. Paying for an advantage is very different than paying to win. Though the goal is the same.
I believe it is pretty much indisputable that buying gems for launch. Then using those Gems to buy Gold. Then using that gold to buy all the blueprints and upgrades you want, will give you a huge advantage and drastically increase your contribution to your server's perfromance in WvWvW
Comments
Nobody is ignoring it, its simply quite obvious that YOU don't get it.
Normally the ability to gain the advantage provided by Siege Weapons is limited by 2 factors, 1) gold, and 2) supply. When you remove one of these limitations - regardless of how small that limitation may or may not turn out to be - you are effectively altering the balance. This is and always has been described as a P2W effect.
There is no argument to be made that it is not. Some people it doesn't bother, others it does but there is no doubt that WvW is P2W.
Personally I don't care, I don't plan on taking part so no real skin off my nose.
Although I do wish they simply had a monthly subscription server where there was no gem-gold interaction.
Wait, what part didnt I get? You mean that seige does not need supply? Those walls and gates are not rebuilt with supply?
I dont get what your saying.... I have never seen anything repaired with gold
What your clearly not getting is that the need for supply is utterly irrelevent to the change in balance caused by gold availablity.
It changes the degree of effect that buying gold causes but it does not change either the principle or the functional reality that spending money gives you a measurable advanatage in WvW.
Then clearly you havent PvPed against a tough enemy who constantly takes out your supply camps.
Not to mention the amount of players it takes to supply and man all those siege weapons you got, seems you have a lot more to worry about than gold. I dont believe you have given this much thought.
Pf course I have. Avoid the Zerg, go guardian with lots of spirit weapons, works great. Guardian kind of op, so I may have to change. I am not an idiot, I just don't plan to face 1000 people head on like some people think they can... I much prefer to go around them.So your purposly avoiding 95% of what the WvW has to offer, and you want Anet to make it easier for you to do it?
Right, good luck with that.
Lol... I can solo cap a supply depot... I can solo cap those command centers... I can do dynamic events that will help my team. I am doing more than just running to the closest crossed swords. So maybe you are missing the 95 %. Also, worry about what you do than what I do. I help my team my way you help yours your way. And also, I said they should make it easier for noobs to get money. Whether they lower the lvls a bit or they raise the award for doing these events, they need to make it easier. Don't act like you know more about this game than me, becuase neither one of us have played it long enough to make that decision.http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
So thats your first hour, what do you do the rest of the time?
Nobody is ignoring it, its simply quite obvious that YOU don't get it.
Normally the ability to gain the advantage provided by Siege Weapons is limited by 2 factors, 1) gold, and 2) supply. When you remove one of these limitations - regardless of how small that limitation may or may not turn out to be - you are effectively altering the balance. This is and always has been described as a P2W effect.
There is no argument to be made that it is not. Some people it doesn't bother, others it does but there is no doubt that WvW is P2W.
Personally I don't care, I don't plan on taking part so no real skin off my nose.
Although I do wish they simply had a monthly subscription server where there was no gem-gold interaction.
Wait, what part didnt I get? You mean that seige does not need supply? Those walls and gates are not rebuilt with supply?
I dont get what your saying.... I have never seen anything repaired with gold
What your clearly not getting is that the need for supply is utterly irrelevent to the change in balance caused by gold availablity.
It changes the degree of effect that buying gold causes but it does not change either the principle or the functional reality that spending money gives you a measurable advanatage in WvW.
Then clearly you havent PvPed against a tough enemy who constantly takes out your supply camps.
Not to mention the amount of players it takes to supply and man all those siege weapons you got, seems you have a lot more to worry about than gold. I dont believe you have given this much thought.
Pf course I have. Avoid the Zerg, go guardian with lots of spirit weapons, works great. Guardian kind of op, so I may have to change. I am not an idiot, I just don't plan to face 1000 people head on like some people think they can... I much prefer to go around them.So your purposly avoiding 95% of what the WvW has to offer, and you want Anet to make it easier for you to do it?
Right, good luck with that.
Lol... I can solo cap a supply depot... I can solo cap those command centers... I can do dynamic events that will help my team. I am doing more than just running to the closest crossed swords. So maybe you are missing the 95 %. Also, worry about what you do than what I do. I help my team my way you help yours your way. And also, I said they should make it easier for noobs to get money. Whether they lower the lvls a bit or they raise the award for doing these events, they need to make it easier. Don't act like you know more about this game than me, becuase neither one of us have played it long enough to make that decision.So thats your first hour, what do you do the rest of the time?
So your saying I can do all that in an hour? How bout you go Zerg some more with your friends and we will see who is more repetitive.http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
I finished in less time, but thats me.
After that, my small band of patriots took over supply routes and took out scragglers. Players just like you actually, all alone, they didnt know what him them...hehe
No we didn't "win". We went from holding nothing to holding 4 towers, a keep and two supply camps (around 1/3rd of the map) and stayed pretty much that way until the bug shut WvW down... which was fortunate because the 10,000 enemy reinforcements were nuking my poor team off the map.
From that point on we were kind of stuck and could move left or right and take a tower or two and a supply camp but didn't have the numbers to push past the much larger enemy numbers.
To give you an idea of how under populated the server I'm on is, I have never had to queue to get into WvW once for the whole weekend.
The Enlightened take things Lightly
So the more people that spend RL money on gems the cheaper they become, the more Arenanet makes money and the more the avergae player also has to spend RL money just to keep up with other players yes cost will go down while need to buy goes up. Interesting tactic Arenanet has for making money and i bet it will succeed for them. After all they won't say they are selling power ups for RL money but when it makes this much of a difference in battle they really are.
Not quite, if the cost go down the supply goes up, because now everyone has a boat load of gems and gold. And once again your down to supply.
If what your really against is game devs making money, then I think your in the wrong hobby. You can try stamp collecting, I hear that is a real challenge.
I'm sure he's serious. This build they added Solo friendly objectives to WvWvW. He was probably trying to attempt them.
so the guy brought about 30,000 gems and still didnt win
Oh yea, pay to win totally, yep,mmmmhmmm
Woah...is this what I think it is?
#TeamVainlash
Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...
That's what I thought. So why are you posting like you have a clue what you are talking about?
You don't have the experience in WvWvW to add anything to the discussion. All you can possibly do is mislead people.
The fact is that small groups of dedicated PvP players who are willing to use the cash shop are going to have a huge impact on WvWvW at launch. I would even go so far to say that if you don't but gems for WvWvW at launch, you are gimping yourself.
It looks to me like you've never played a game with a P2W cash shop. If you had you wouldn't be making statements just like this. You wouldn't by any chance prefer P2P games, would you?
if just one guy can make that much difference though, imagine what it would have been like if there had been half a dozen, or a dozen even, doing the same thing.. unless people do the same on the opposing side then, i can imagine that the outcome would have been far less than clear cut, it might even have reversed the outcome completely.
Likely there would be no difference whatsoever. Law of diminishing returns. Once you've reached your cap in gold, any more gold will not bring you any more noticeable benefits. In GW2 WvW you have a number of bottlenecks: gold, supply, player bodies. Once you've added unlimited gold, you are still limited by supply and player bodies, and you can't buy those with gems or gold.
Also, filling the gold cap doesn't seem to be hard even without buying gems for higher levels.
I'm not worried at all.
I think you need to do some thinking about what is "winning". Yes that player has some items sooner than you and may get better drops, but how does that affect you, and how does he win from other players?
Sure if your metagame is the economy or getting as many items as possible (that have little to no influence on the relative power a player has gameplay wise) then you may have an argument.
But as it stands it doesn't win anything in competetive pvp (no buffs working there, everyone maxed in gear and stats) and in WvW it will balance out because every server will have some people spending cash in the shop to get boosts so earn gold faster and can buy siege equipment faster and even if some servers have all the rich guys they'll be matched against eachother when rebalancing the matches against other servers to be relatively the same in power.
And I think it's laughable if you think someone can win over other players in a cooperative pve environment where there's no progresion raiding so also no server firsts to brag about.
True, but I simply cannot see enough people doing this on such an extended basis that it will ever be an issue that is more then maybe a blip now and again.
This was beta, the guy could throw $1000 (or whatever) at the cash shop and blow it in this way in one sitting simply because he knew he would be getting that money back at launch.
Who is honestly going going to burn 30k Gems (or whatever) daily on every battle?
So how was there any winning?
a yo ho ho
Sure this is a problem when you're all level 1 and make 13 copper of a dynamic event in 10 minutes :P You have to take the income of a level 80 into account, which, if it's anything like in any other average MMO, will be astronomically higher. I wouldn't be surprised if 1g was pocket money, especially if you take market trading into account.
And btw, 100gems for 50 silver is a very very bad ratio. Isn't the other way around something like 125 gems for 14 silver? It's rather silly to waste real money this way on something as short lasting as taking a keep. The player didn't win.. he lost, hard.
My Guild Wars 2 First Beta Weekend "reviewette" : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4944570/thread/349125#4944570
So somebody on your side bought tons of gold, then bought tons of seige eqiupment and you were still unable to win. How is this pay to win if you lost?
Obviously nothing except an acutal "I win button" would be literally P2W.
However this more along the lines of pay for a massive advantage at launch. Which is what it will be if you Buy Gems to trade for gold.
It will remain to seen if this advantage will conitune past the first intial few weeks. What I can say from all my WvWvW experience is at least intially, it will be a huge advantage. You can even buy double supply.
Gems can't get sold for gold without other players spending that gold. If a guy actually managed to get the commander book in this beta I'm guessing he is a guild leader and got guild funded.
You can buy siege weapons, including the Golem for Marks of Honor that drop from players killed in WvWvW. Had enoughf or golem after about 400 kills.
Went to WvWvW at level 10 with 11 silver. Now at level 20 I have 30 silver, bought the trait book and repair regularly, haven't done any quests outside of WvWvW after level 10.
So yeah. Sorry. But I don't buy it.
I bought a bunch of blueprints. I upgraded supply depots. Doubling their supply and increasing the number of guards. I upgraded keeps walls and hired extra workers to make upgrades go faster. I bought cannons for walls.
I also while not in WvWvW bought the gems I needed to slot my gear.
I still have almost 8 gold.
Personally I don't even play MMO's as multiplayer games anymore. But I am so tired of reading this absurd attempt at rationalizing the reality of a P2W mechanic. Different people feel differently about types of competition. Some people set goals for thems or "compete" with other like minded individuals in different ways. Their individual playstyles are no less valid then the one that you are interested in. Not only can it affect their ability to "compete" in these ways but it can completely make any kind of real competition impossible.
In other words it DOES have an effect on their ability to enjoy the games.
Exactly, if someone enjoys seeing how much gold they can accumulate relative to others then it absolutley does affect them.
This is absurd, because there will be people on both sides doing it, it will balance out? Thats assinine and utterly irrelevent to the spirit of fair competition.
I can pretty much guarantee there will be server firsts for many things.
Why did you only quote a part of my post? That part was sarcasm, the rest of it explained what I thought of your lame P2W arguement.
[mod edit]
I am not claiming P2W, I'm claiming Pay for a substaintable advantage. Paying for an advantage is very different than paying to win. Though the goal is the same.
Win
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/win
Advantage
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/advantage
I believe it is pretty much indisputable that buying gems for launch. Then using those Gems to buy Gold. Then using that gold to buy all the blueprints and upgrades you want, will give you a huge advantage and drastically increase your contribution to your server's perfromance in WvWvW