Originally posted by En1Gma WoW has to be doing something right with so many subscribers. I didnt mind playing the game at all. Grinding and the "lack" of content doesnt just point to WoW. Its simply a problem that 99.99% of all mmorpgs occasionally face. This is Blizzard's first mmorpg. Not a bad start. They can only improve from here on out.
Well i think reason many have answered this post is at the laughable statement "wow cannot be legitimately bashed".
Fact is i can find something wrong with every mmorpg or that matter any game as NOTHING is ever perfect.
But as far as WoW is concerned many seems to feel blizzard can do not wrong .Well all are entitled to their opinon but same people(close to fanatism) seems to think people who find something wrong with WoW must be mad.
And blizzard is showing signs of believing this with slow updates.Only recently have they picked up the pace .
Watching closely what comes in next few weeks to see if i should re activate my account.
As I am the original poster let me explain some things.
1. I said WoW cannot be legitimately bashed for 3 reasons.
a. To get your attention, b. to make a challenge for myself (would have been easier if I wasn't ridiculously tired), c. the game's whole point was to make money, so they did everything possible to attract the masses, since they attracted the masses by a large multiple over any other game, they're design succeeded.
Essentially, you don't think the designers knew all the criticisms would come, you don't think they knew what the gripes would be. Of course they knew, but they're goal was to attract the most people and they did it. End of story, most concepts in their game, the easy crafting, the question marks over NPC's head, etc, are made to attract people. It's within the design, they did it on purpose.
Yes it is true other games that spydr mentioned have better crafting or NPC concepts or whatever, but overall, they must have something broken about the game or else people would be playing that.
Now of course you can bash WoW legitimately, but make sure you bash it on something the designers were trying to do, don't bash it on something the designers purposely omitted for whatever reasons they had.
I skimmed some of the longer posts so I'll comment more on those when I have the chance to read them carefully. To Spydr, you did criticize and insult me in your original post on this thread just for your information.
Also, yes my post was flawed and I actually mentioned some of the flaws, maybe when I am at lvl 60 for some time I'll make another post about WoW.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Originally posted by Cryomatrix Hey guys, As I am the original poster let me explain some things. 1. I said WoW cannot be legitimately bashed for 3 reasons. a. To get your attention, b. to make a challenge for myself (would have been easier if I wasn't ridiculously tired), c. the game's whole point was to make money, so they did everything possible to attract the masses, since they attracted the masses by a large multiple over any other game, they're design succeeded. Essentially, you don't think the designers knew all the criticisms would come, you don't think they knew what the gripes would be. Of course they knew, but they're goal was to attract the most people and they did it. End of story, most concepts in their game, the easy crafting, the question marks over NPC's head, etc, are made to attract people. It's within the design, they did it on purpose. Yes it is true other games that spydr mentioned have better crafting or NPC concepts or whatever, but overall, they must have something broken about the game or else people would be playing that. Now of course you can bash WoW legitimately, but make sure you bash it on something the designers were trying to do, don't bash it on something the designers purposely omitted for whatever reasons they had. I skimmed some of the longer posts so I'll comment more on those when I have the chance to read them carefully. To Spydr, you did criticize and insult me in your original post on this thread just for your information. Also, yes my post was flawed and I actually mentioned some of the flaws, maybe when I am at lvl 60 for some time I'll make another post about WoW. Cryomatrix
"...they must have something broken about the game or else people would be playing that." Ironically, this is the "apply today's subscriber-base standards to yesterday/all other games". AC1's been around for six years, still has more than enough subscribers to continue because they're long since in the profit and above the profit-point. Horizon's been gaining subscribers since they started pouring in the content/fixes. The quality of the game has nothing to do with the number of subscribers; it has to do with the criteria (quality, in whatever terms we define) used. In this case, I actually agree with the comments of your paragraph that starts with "essentially..." Blizz set out to specifically draw in as many people as possible. They didn't do the complicated things, or anything flexible in design that gives the players input into the functioning/uniqueness of the world/items because that would potentially REDUCE the number of subscribers. I have said here and elsewhere: I admire them for achieving their goal. I for one prefer to have the flexibility in game mechanics support the players having input through their actions in the gameworld. That doesn't mean that that affects anyone else's gameplay of any particularl game -- have fun with what you find fun. Enjoy WoW. I did while I played it. It just had nothing to involve me, no game mechanics that supported ME doing anything that distinguished me from every other person.
To Spydr, you did criticize and insult me in your original post on this thread just for your information.
-- end quote --
the intention wasn't per se to insult the individual but the idiocy of making a blanket statement like the heading of the thread. ANY game can be criticised, and legitimately so, because on the criteria one uses to criticise the game. Not everyone likes the same things -- no different than saying "no one can bash GM legitimately". Sure they can. Easily.
Thanks for the well-thought out responses, my OP was clearly flawed and yes I did know that at the outset. One problem I have is that I feel like I can talk about MMORPG when this is my first one I played hahaha, I always feel qualified when I know I'm not compared to people that have played all of them. I just feel like If I think about it, I can come out with good insight, albeit lacking in overall comprehensiveness and accurate comparisons of other RPG's, but it is still fun to try at least, usually i'd do more research but I get excited when I think I have a good idea.
Of course games can be legitimately bashed when speaking in the correct context. Can WoW be bashed? Sure it can but you have to put it in the right context. For example, you have to look at it from all angles especially in the goal of the company and how the audience would react.
These are pretty good forums though. Stay tuned for my next well-thought out but ignorant and skewed post .
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I agree with most of what you said, but I think the game would be alot better if leveling was about 10x slower and if there was an XP penalty to dying. Not like the one in Everquest, but more like the one in Asheron's Call, where you earn an "xp debit" which you have to pay back before advancing. So you never lose a level but dying still slow you down so ppl are more careful and the dumb people get weeded out.
It's just way too easy to level, there are way too many incompetent people at 60, I see them in pickup groups and they are retards. You would think that in 60 levels you would play better.
The ONLY fault WoW has is encouraging a low quality playerbase, we literally have the worst players, the more immature and stupid players, no need to be careful, no need to do anything, it's just a candyland for little kids. Lalalala just go through and die...again..again..again..no penalty.
And then on the boards they have the nerve to be like "Well I'm 60, so I know what I'm talking about."
You can't AVOID getting to 60. If you login for 2 months and die 50 times an hour, you'll still be 60, so what is your opinion really worth?
I'm not a fan of WoW... at all. But I figured I would just say... just becuase it says 4 million subscribers doesn't mean just that. They just want it to look good. No doubt it is alot! but I have a room mate that is addictited to WoW... and he himself has 3-4 accounts... to blizzard they are just added as 3-4 subscribers... he also has friends with multiple accounts. What it should really say is 4 million subscritions. Therefore saying ANY game is great becuase of how many are playing it is all crap.
AND DON'T ASK ME WHY HE HAS MORE THEN ONE ACCOUNT... I DON'T GET IT EITHER.
Beyond wanting to play the opposing faction on the same PvP server, I see no reason for additional accounts. I believe you're allowed up to 10 characters per server, with 50 characters total.
I don't doubt that some of those subscriptions are duplicates, but I'd argue that those would be the exception.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Why would a game that is geared toward casual gamers have a "robust" crafing system.
The problem is that experienced gamers are trying to apply a paradigm for other mmorpg's to wow. WoW is made to attract casual gamers to the mmorpg genre.
most casual gamers are not going to zip through the game to 60 and have nothing to do. Most casual gamers are not going to want to spend all their time looking for hundreds of mats to craft...
this is a casual game. It has to be evaluated on that.
I've played this game casually with a friend of mine and have only gotten to lvl 19. And I bought it when it came out. Becasue I play it for a few hours every few days or so... somtimes even more time passes.
But... when I actually get ingame it is a lot of fun.
You want pvp games then go to l2, GW, Shadowbane, DAOC etc.
There are so many other games out there where someone who plays many hours per day won't max out their character.
This game is lighthearted fun.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by IcoGames Originally posted by Jodokai 5. Ah yes fix the wait queues and then I might acutally get what I'm paying for. Perish the thought.
Wait queues? Lol, those have long been gone. I haven't seen those on either Azgalor or Archimonde (both High Pop Servers) in months.
If you're going to bash the game, get your facts straight. Been hanging out with Wepps too much?
Hum...Try playing battlegrounds as Alliance. There you have it, wait queues. And it can be as long as 3-4 hs. Not long ago (1-2 months) there were 200-300 ppl wait queues on Proudmoore (the server I play at).
If people don't like something about a game they're free to complain about it. Regardless of whether or not they're in the minority or majority that's their perogative.
Just because a game is successful doesn't mean that it's flawless.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
Originally posted by TookyG If people don't like something about a game they're free to complain about it. Regardless of whether or not they're in the minority or majority that's their perogative. Just because a game is successful doesn't mean that it's flawless.
You are absolutely correct. However, the complaints should also be realistic. Complaining that it takes too long to play Battlegrounds or sign in have a great deal of merit.
Complaining that it takes a week to get to lvl 60 and there is nothing to do holds less if the game is designed for the casual in mind. I do suppose the complaint has validity with the "complainer" as they are being inconvenienced in some way but you have to be realistic.
It's like the opposite in Lineage 2, where the casual games complain that they will never be higher lvl and thus be able to take advantage of the higher end game content. Of course they are always told that the game might not be for them.
WoW just might not be for everybody (technical issues aside, which of course should be fixed).
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Its the nature of the criticism. No one is really saying the game is flawless. Of course it has some issues. The problem with criticism is when no thought is used before citing an issue.
Its like saying a Toyota is a BAD car because it doesn't look as nice as a Ferrari. Uuuuum. A Toyota is NOT a Ferrari. It doesn't cost as much as one and someone INTERESTED in a Ferrari shouldn't be interested in a Toyota.
Compare that comment to something as common as "WOWs PvP system doesn't allow me to change the world." UUuum. Besides that being a completely false statement, because you can change the world in WOW by killing NPCs, Blizzard already tried. You can completely shut down towns or CITIES for that matter. The problem with that feature is it doesn't work if you ALSO expect to retain a large playerbase. So, Blizzard wanted a large playerbase and they avoided a feature to insure that. See? If you want to play a game where you can change things and negatively effect others on a large scale, then go play those games. Its no accident the games that do allow you to do those things are NOT well produced, old, or have VERY low populations. Besides, Blizzard is re-thinking that option and trying to figure out a way to allow some persistant controllable objectives, because some people have expressed an interest. Unfortunately, they also know population imbalance will make those objectives trivial.
"WOW isn't immersive." Always a good one and COMPLETELY subjective. Saga of Ryzom and EVE are considered by the few people who play them, very immersive. Consequently, there is NOT much to do with little to no direction as to what you're supposed to do. For me, theres nothing immersive about a game that has no content or makes you travel through large empty areas. They might be immersive, but the BIGGEST knock on both of those games is that neither are very fun. I find WOW plenty immersive because the world is VERY detailed, well thought out, NOT boring, and everything has purpose. Immersion is feeling like you're in a living breathing world. WOW has every indication that lots of things are going on everywhere you look. Areas look like they're supposed to look. If handcrafted environments are not immersive then thats just an opinion.
You have to go into a game knowing what you can do and not complain when you can't do it. Don't complain when playing Baseball that it would be BETTER if you could tackle the runner. Baseball isn't about tackling the runner=) WOW is not about a deep crafting system. It has adaquate crafting. Plenty of players do it. Theres no shortage of players who enjoy whats in the game. Is it the GAME'S problem or your problem.
The great thing about a game well-made from the bottom up is that features can be added. WOW will add some persistant goals. Its on the website. WOW can improve crafting if they need to, but crafted items that are equal to found items disrupt the balance. Theres some amazing crafted gear. Its just not as varried as looted gear, BY DESIGN!!! Since most people playing the game enjoy fighting and dungeon crawling, THAT's where the effort is going. WOW can add more features to interest lots of people. Other games can not.
Can SB ever recover? Nope. Can AC2 ever recover? Nope. Can EVE ever become a fun game? Nope. Can FFXI ever become a game for casual people? NOPE. Can EQ2 ever bring in PvP that'll work? Most probably, nope. No developer spends 4 years on a game HOPING they'll just break even or have just enough to keep the game running. Its about making a profit. Thats the goal.
Blizzard wanted to make a FUN MMORPG that all sorts of players with different interests can enjoy that doesn't require huge time investment like previous games. They accomplished exactly that and MORE.
Originally posted by Josher Can SB ever recover? Nope. Can AC2 ever recover? Nope. Can EVE ever become a fun game? Nope. Can FFXI ever become a game for casual people? NOPE. Can EQ2 ever bring in PvP that'll work? Most probably, nope. No developer spends 4 years on a game HOPING they'll just break even or have just enough to keep the game running. Its about making a profit. Thats the goal.
..... thats your opinion EVE isn't fun for you but its fun for other players .... and SB are releasing the lore server on Monday it dosn't mean it will recover but alot of the old SB players will be back online again. dont know anything about the other games atm
Even Feathermoon, a medium population RP server, gets queues sometimes. Once in a blue moon, and less now that the RP-PVP servers are all the rage. Still happens every once in a while and are usually less than a minute. Still though I'd much rather a queue that has a deffinate end to it than the countless login-server outages that end "whenever".
Originally posted by Cryomatrix 1. The casual gamer makes up >95% of all people that play video games (specifically WoW).
I don't know where you are getting your facts from, but that is definitely not true.
Originally posted by Cyromatrix From what I've noticed most people will tell you a game sucks because they didn't like something. For example: WoW sucks because it is repetitive, it sucks because the PvP system doesn't allow looting, WoW sucks because you level too fast. Wow sucks because it is too easy. WoW sucks because at lvl 60 there is nothing to do. It sucks because you have to do an instance a million times to get a piece of loot. If you look at each complaint, I want you to think carefully about what would the players response be if it was the other way around. What happens if you could loot in PvP, so you get blindsided by a rogue or you get gang banged and the piece of special loot that took you 10 playing days to find is gone. What happens if instead of getting 225 xp by killing a lvl 36 monster solo (when you are lvl 35) now becomes 100 xp. It would take a lot longer to level up right, I'd still be level 16. Everyone would be like it's too slow. What happens if everyone could get the best equipment just by going through the game? THe point i'm trying to make here is twofold. One is that of all your complaints, most people aren't considering the alternative, perhaps the alternative is way worse, perhaps the alternative gets 10 times more complaints than what is in place now.
Have you ever stopped to think, since they were asking for the alternative, they would actually want it? Those kinds of things would gear the game more towards realism, and I know alot of people would appreciate a MMO like that.
Originally posted by Cyromatrix But here is my question, what did Blizzard do that's bad in the game, what is something that 95%+ people would complain about, I don't think repetition is a valid claim and I don't think running out of things to do is a valid complaint either. Those are both unavoidable due to natural constraints. Essentially, what concept of WoW is bad that detracts from the game.
I can't answer that question because 95% of the people couldn't agree on it, but at least 60% could. So here is some reasons for that 60% (or the hardcore) players. 1. Leveling is too fast 2. Servers have seriously bad lag 3. Classes are over powered 4. Gameplay is repetitive and end game is a bore (yes, I have reached level 60, only because my friends were playing) 5. You don't feel like an individual, every other high level character of your class will most likely have the same equipment, or will be trying to get it. 6. Community is full of too many annoying people
[quote]Originally posted by Cryomatrix [b]I don't like country music, but It's intellectually challenged to say it sucks because you don't like it. Essentially if you look at most posts of WoW it is basically, It didn't appeal to me and therefore it sucks. The point I'm trying to make here is that opinion does not make a game good or it does not make a game bad. If most people have negative opinions about a game it is probably a bad game, if most people have positive opinions about a game it is most likely good. [b][/quote]
Ok here are some facts for you then 1. The lag on WoW can be much worse then the average of another game's. 2. Blizzard team has weakened classes by taking away spells/effects (nerfing is rarely good). 3. A large amount of the community is full of people who are kids, and they aren't mature (when I say mature, I mean they have respect for other people, they aren't cussing all the time, they don't try to annoy people, so yes, that can be proven).
[quote]Originally posted by Cryomatrix [b]In conclusion, make sure when you bash a game you are bashing a mechanism or a concept in a game that is an egregious error of the game that would have a negative effect on most of the audience. Also, you can't bash WoW, they succeeded completely in their objectives, they own the market, and there game is almost flawless in reference to the casual gamer. Since, the casual gamers make up most of the population, attracting them means attracting the people, attracting the people means attracting the money and in the end. MONEY RULES THE WORLD. [b][/quote]
First you tell me that I can bash a mechanism or a concept, then you tell me I can't bash WoW? If I disagree with a game element in WoW, and Blizzard does not fix it and they are aware of it, do you not think that we should have the right to voice our opinions?
You were right about this game being successfull because it was targeted to the casual gamer, I'm not going to argue that, but you sounded so caught up in your long words that you started to trip over yourself and you sounded like an idiot. Casual gamers aren't the mass of the market, so if they were trying to get as many people as they wanted, they were not successful. I can honestly say alot of the reasons that the majority of the market plays this mmo is (Well actually, it is the third most played according to charts) because it is made by Blizzard (they made Diablo, Starcraft, they have alot of good history to back them up), and it is a Warcraft franchise (large player base).
NOTE: Sorry, the edit was for trying to get the quotes to work.
Originally posted by Cryomatrix 1. The casual gamer makes up >95% of all people that play video games (specifically WoW).
I don't know where you are getting your facts from, but that is definitely not true.
Originally posted by Cyromatrix From what I've noticed most people will tell you a game sucks because they didn't like something. For example: WoW sucks because it is repetitive, it sucks because the PvP system doesn't allow looting, WoW sucks because you level too fast. Wow sucks because it is too easy. WoW sucks because at lvl 60 there is nothing to do. It sucks because you have to do an instance a million times to get a piece of loot. If you look at each complaint, I want you to think carefully about what would the players response be if it was the other way around. What happens if you could loot in PvP, so you get blindsided by a rogue or you get gang banged and the piece of special loot that took you 10 playing days to find is gone. What happens if instead of getting 225 xp by killing a lvl 36 monster solo (when you are lvl 35) now becomes 100 xp. It would take a lot longer to level up right, I'd still be level 16. Everyone would be like it's too slow. What happens if everyone could get the best equipment just by going through the game? THe point i'm trying to make here is twofold. One is that of all your complaints, most people aren't considering the alternative, perhaps the alternative is way worse, perhaps the alternative gets 10 times more complaints than what is in place now.
Have you ever stopped to think, since they were asking for the alternative, they would actually want it? Those kinds of things would gear the game more towards realism, and I know alot of people would appreciate a MMO like that.
Originally posted by Cyromatrix But here is my question, what did Blizzard do that's bad in the game, what is something that 95%+ people would complain about, I don't think repetition is a valid claim and I don't think running out of things to do is a valid complaint either. Those are both unavoidable due to natural constraints. Essentially, what concept of WoW is bad that detracts from the game.
I can't answer that question because 95% of the people couldn't agree on it, but at least 60% could. So here is some reasons for that 60% (or the hardcore) players. 1. Leveling is too fast 2. Servers have seriously bad lag 3. Classes are over powered 4. Gameplay is repetitive and end game is a bore (yes, I have reached level 60, only because my friends were playing) 5. You don't feel like an individual, every other high level character of your class will most likely have the same equipment, or will be trying to get it. 6. Community is full of too many annoying people
[quote]Originally posted by Cryomatrix [b] I don't like country music, but It's intellectually challenged to say it sucks because you don't like it. Essentially if you look at most posts of WoW it is basically, It didn't appeal to me and therefore it sucks. The point I'm trying to make here is that opinion does not make a game good or it does not make a game bad. If most people have negative opinions about a game it is probably a bad game, if most people have positive opinions about a game it is most likely good. [b][/quote]
Ok here are some facts for you then 1. The lag on WoW can be much worse then the average of another game's. 2. Blizzard team has weakened classes by taking away spells/effects (nerfing is rarely good). 3. A large amount of the community is full of people who are kids, and they aren't mature (when I say mature, I mean they have respect for other people, they aren't cussing all the time, they don't try to annoy people, so yes, that can be proven).
[quote]Originally posted by Cryomatrix [b] In conclusion, make sure when you bash a game you are bashing a mechanism or a concept in a game that is an egregious error of the game that would have a negative effect on most of the audience. Also, you can't bash WoW, they succeeded completely in their objectives, they own the market, and there game is almost flawless in reference to the casual gamer. Since, the casual gamers make up most of the population, attracting them means attracting the people, attracting the people means attracting the money and in the end. MONEY RULES THE WORLD. [b][/quote]
First you tell me that I can bash a mechanism or a concept, then you tell me I can't bash WoW? If I disagree with a game element in WoW, and Blizzard does not fix it and they are aware of it, do you not think that we should have the right to voice our opinions?
You were right about this game being successfull because it was targeted to the casual gamer, I'm not going to argue that, but you sounded so caught up in your long words that you started to trip over yourself and you sounded like an idiot. Casual gamers aren't the mass of the market, so if they were trying to get as many people as they wanted, they were not successful. I can honestly say alot of the reasons that the majority of the market plays this mmo is (Well actually, it is the third most played according to charts) because it is made by Blizzard (they made Diablo, Starcraft, they have alot of good history to back them up), and it is a Warcraft franchise (large player base).
NOTE: Sorry, all the edits were for trying to get the quotes to work.
both of you need to link where you got your info on what % is casual and what is hardcore. one of you says 95% is casual and the other says 60% is hardcore. i can pretty much say you are both wrong. 95% is a little far fetched my friend tho you could be right, but theres no way in gods green earth that 60% of all video game players are hardcore gamers. that was just a stupid comment....so all the millions of dollers spent not only in console games but pc casual games only make up for 40% of the video game market?? lol give me a link to this stat beacuse untill then you my friend are full of it imo.
just because you are a hardcore mmo player dosent mean everyone els should be, (this comming from a fan of the hardcore mmo games) people love wow because it is a casual and easy game. allthough i do agree with alot of your opinions on what you think a good mmo is, but thats all it is....an opinion....
Wow, everyone wants to be right about something that the thread is continously derailed. Now I don't feel like giving my opinion because it seems like spyd is the only one who will actaully admit he does not represent the word of god.
Let me just say why I stopped playing WoW, I'll try to do what En1gma did so hopefully none of this qualifies as opinion and I won't incite the wraith of the fan hordes.
1. Not enough time for endgame content - I did the lesser 3-4 instances many many times, got all the shiny gear I wanted from them, all that I really had left was MC, but the only 2 clans on my server and faction that were running MC required too much dedication for DKP and 6-8 hour blocks of time for my schedule and liking. Didn't feel very challenged running instances either, since each time it was exactly the same it was like we were all robots, we all knew the drill. 2. Didn't like the PvP - Well lets just say I like war and not war games(oh I just know I'm going to get the goarmy link for this), BG instances just don't do it for me, what EVE does is exactly how I like it. 3. Because of 1 & 2 I'm left with nothing to do but start an alliance alt, which I really didnt want to do.
Said goodbye to my pet zerg and cancelled, had some good times though.
---------------------------------- MMOs Retired From: Earth and Beyond, Project Entropia, There, A Tale in the Desert, Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Eve Online, City of Heroes/Villains.
Its like saying a Toyota is a BAD car because it doesn't look as nice as a Ferrari. Uuuuum. A Toyota is NOT a Ferrari. It doesn't cost as much as one and someone INTERESTED in a Ferrari shouldn't be interested in a Toyota.
What does this has to do with MMORPGs? Why shouldn't one who is "interested" a Ferrari be interested in a Toyota? Plus there are actually quite a lot better looking cars than a Ferrari without the enormous price tag. To return to MMORPGs - the purchasing costs of the most prominent MMORPGs and their upkeep (monthly fees) are roughly the same. So the only thing that matters here is the choice you make according to what game suits you most. If you can't afford one MMORG, you probably can't afford any other either. So, what was your point again?
The great thing about a game well-made from the bottom up is that features can be added. WOW will add some persistant goals. Its on the website.
ROFL, a classic...... "its on the website". Reminds me of "Very Bad Things" when the character played by Cameron Diaz says: "It's true, I saw it on TV".
Eventhough Blizzard has an above average tendency to actually implement announced content, it is no gurantee how well or if at all it will be brought into the game. I hope we can agree here that only what is in game counts.
WOW can improve crafting if they need to, but crafted items that are equal to found items disrupt the balance. Theres some amazing crafted gear. Its just not as varried as looted gear, BY DESIGN!!! Since most people playing the game enjoy fighting and dungeon crawling, THAT's where the effort is going. WOW can add more features to interest lots of people. Other games can not.
This post gets even more entertaining. Why the hell shouldn't other games be able to add content/features? Even some that interests "lots of people" (whatever your definition of "lots" here is). Hmm, but maybe you are right and the new features/content that appears continously on Tranquility Server (EVE Online) was hacked-in by some players that were sooo pissed off by CCP (the game developers) not adding content..... oh my...
Can SB ever recover? Nope. Can AC2 ever recover? Nope. Can EVE ever become a fun game? Nope. Can FFXI ever become a game for casual people? NOPE. Can EQ2 ever bring in PvP that'll work? Most probably, nope.
I think you are biased, or frustrated..... or maybe both. I haven't played most games you mention for longer time, but at least about EVE you are wrong. You must have meant "EVE is not fun *for me*", right?
Blizzard wanted to make a FUN MMORPG that all sorts of players with different interests can enjoy that doesn't require huge time investment like previous games. They accomplished exactly that and MORE.
So all the other game developers wanted to make boring games?
Also, WoW requires *tremendous* time investement for your character to grow (like most other MMORPGs tbh). Playing it for one or two hours per day (on average) won't get you anywhere. Getting together a group (even in a guild or close-knit group) for an instance quest usually takes that amount of time alone - that is if you find other players to do that quest at all. And then you need the time for the instance itself - and if you are "especially lucky" and you got one or more dumbasses in the group you can start all over again a few times. The same with non-instance quests, it simply takes too long to get people together. I don't say that it's different from other fantasy MMORPGs, but its far from your stated "doesn't require huge time investment".
And what do you mean by ".. players of different interests can enjoy". Do you mean RL interests or in game interests? If the former I can assure you that other games are played by gamers of very varying backgrounds. If you mean the latter than I have to tell you that you just contradiced yourself, since you claimed a bit farther above that WoW is for mainly players who enjoy fighting and dungeon crawling - and that is not what I call "different interests". Yes..... actually, a very true point you made there, accidentally I admit, but very true. WoW caters mainly to those that want action and kill stuff (i.e. typical Diablo players), and not to those who love variety and lots of possibilities. And no, X amount of instances does not equal X amount of possibilities.
@ topic (finally!): Yes, I agree that "bashing" a game, no matter which, usually leads to nowhere. Bashing in this sense I define as saying something is bad (to stay polite) and giving no arguments or reason why it is bad. If you have to criticise something then at least say why you think its bad. Though if you don't like "your" game to be "bashed" by others, you have to abstain from browsing open forums anyways.
WoW was designed as a mass market product, therefore it offers simple gameplay. Since it's mass market the game *has* to be simple, because the collective IQ of humans is very low. Complexity or depth of play are not among WoW's long suits, for that simple reason. If you try to look at it as objectively as possible you'll see that these "facts" are not far off. Everything else (Graphics, Gameplay, etc.) about WoW is a matter of taste, past experiences, and mindset.
------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
You overanalyzed a very simple metephore about the cars. It was there to drive home the concept that some players WANTING everything without asking why you can't have everything. Your opinion about how good a car looks means it migh've went right over your head. Example...People complain that they can't solo past a certain point. HELLO unreasonable person. Name another MMORPG that lets you solo to max lvl and actually have fun doing it? Sorry, can't do it can you.
Sorry, but so far ,Blizzard has added everything they've said, compared to other developers who don't even get in working features at launch. Let alone a working title. The bigest screw up has been the Honor system and that was removed because of all the hardcore gamers in beta complaining about consquences. They didn't want them which would've led to a broken game. Blizzard just removed Honor completely in the begining. The original idea didn't work in their implimentation but still can work. Everything else has been added and generally fixed without breaking the game. Previously, you could kill all NPCs without recourse. THE game was being broken because of it. It was fixed. Don't like it? Thats because you must enjoy playing broken MMORPGs. Yet, they didnt' stop you from killing NPCs. Its not Blizzard fault, those doing the complaining want to do things to massively disrupt the game but dont' want their own gameplay disrputed as well. This comes back to those unreasoonable people who are NEVER happy.
Certain other games can't add features that fight against other features. SB and Horizons can't add in a working, FUN PvE game. EVE won't attract an audience due to certain inherant play mechanics. Neither can ATITD, Ryzome and a host of others. EQ2 can't/wont add well done PvP. However, Blizzard can add in housing later or more detailed crafting skills. They will be adding in some persistant PvP goals. If the DEMAND is there, Blizzard can actually improve their game and open it up for even more people or make those already playing, happier. These other companies just don't have the demand in the first place or the game is too pigeon holed. Get it?
Accoring to most reviews, the reasno most MMORPG aren't played by many people is because they're just not FUN for most players. GO read the reviews. WOW is fun for most people. Thats not opinion. Thats just FACT!! Thats why 4 million people are playing. Thats why people never interested in the genre are playing. Admit it already. How you feel about a game doesn't matter, when 4 Million people disagree with you. You can say WOW isn't fun for YOU, but it sure is FUN for MOST! Thats really important.
As for WOW being simple. Guess what? Its battle system has as much or more depth then EVERY previous comparable MMORPG. Don't agree? Compare skills, balance and speed of play. You just lost the argument. The closest one is AC and its only because of movement. Take into account skills, their varying effects, plus secondary items WOW allows you to use to supliment the battle system and you lost 10X over. The classes are actually balanced, which is almost unheard of. ANYONE can beat just about anyone else. You just can't do that in other MMORPGs. The fact that the battle system works for both PvE and PvP is an accomplishment. Don't confuse GOALS with the core gameplay. WOW PvP isnt' BAD because you can't make life miserable for other players or loot their corpse. YOU think thats bad. MOST people think thats horrible. For a turnbased battle system its the best yet and theres still a long way to go for the genre.
Its travel system isn't so simple since it has more modes of travel than any other by FAR!!!
Its dungeons have varying degrees of simplicity and complexity. More could be added, but theres so much already now. Just 10 months.
The crafting is simple, buts you can't base a big succesful game around crafting. I already posted about it. You can disagree but the proof is the in the population numbers. Don't confuse depth with complicated. Don't confuse simple with streamlined. Theres a big difference. WOW is as simple as you want to make it. If there was a bigger demand from its playerbase, crafting will get better. Its not useless like some games also and doesn't break other parts of the game when it becomes useful. Theres a good balance right now and thats a good thing.
As for variying interests in a game, OF COURSE its game interests.
You can PvE alone or in groups. You can do dungeons or NOT. You can craft, fish, enchant, gather herbs or mine. You can RP if you want. You can play for an hour or 12 and still accomplish something. Balance of time commitment. You can PvP outside or in instances. You can get organized or not. You can generally just craft after you reach 60. Everything can be bought pretty much. You can make money just from the AH is you so desire from a lvl 1. Everything is related to some PvE, but thats the main point of the game, because thats what most people find fun. Theres nothing wrong with that. As soon as you get to 60, you dont' have to PvE EVER AGAIN. Not so in other MMORPGs. WOW is fun for lost of different play styles and thats important. It doesn't MATTER what you think. All that matters is that facts. 4 Million people playing of varrying interests and styles and they'r having fun. WHats so wrong with a game that lets you do that?
If simple means, "I can't win", then you're generally alone. Until a MMORPG can actually prosper using a system where players have to give up or quit for another side to win, good luck with that.
Originally posted by Jodokai The problem with your inital post, is you don't address the real problems people have with WoW, you simply counter the arguments that are easy to counter. My problems with WoW: 1. The community is the worse I've ever seen in an MMO, and that's saying a lot since I've played Lineage II. 2. There is no reason to have other people on a server with me. I can go from level 1-60 without another soul on the server with me just as quickly as I can with a server full of people. 3. Crafting for dummies. The crafting system is horridly simple. 4. DON'T HAVE A RELIABLE PATCHER. Who the hell developes an MMO with no way to patch it? That's just stupid. 5. Wait queues. Only MMO I've ever had to wait for. Sure they have more people than any other mmo, they also have more servers than any other MMO. Now let me look at those points from the "other angle" 1. If Blizzard was somehow able to fix this: Hmm yes I can see how having a better community would make this a worse game...oh wait no I can't. 2. Hmm make people interdependent in a MULTIPLAYER game. While some may say that this is "a bad thing" I can't see a downside to it. 3. A robust crafting system with options, yeah I see your point now, how horrible would that be? 4. Let's see, being able to patch their own game? Why then I wouldn't be able to see all those other cool websites...Yeah great loss there. 5. Ah yes fix the wait queues and then I might acutally get what I'm paying for. Perish the thought.
Originally posted by Josher You overanalyzed a very simple metephore about the cars. It was there to drive home the concept that some players WANTING everything without asking why you can't have everything. Your opinion about how good a car looks means it migh've went right over your head. Example...People complain that they can't solo past a certain point. HELLO unreasonable person. Name another MMORPG that lets you solo to max lvl and actually have fun doing it? Sorry, can't do it can you. Sorry, but so far ,Blizzard has added everything they've said, compared to other developers who don't even get in working features at launch. Let alone a working title. The bigest screw up has been the Honor system and that was removed because of all the hardcore gamers in beta complaining about consquences. They didn't want them which would've led to a broken game. Blizzard just removed Honor completely in the begining. The original idea didn't work in their implimentation but still can work. Everything else has been added and generally fixed without breaking the game. Previously, you could kill all NPCs without recourse. THE game was being broken because of it. It was fixed. Don't like it? Thats because you must enjoy playing broken MMORPGs. Yet, they didnt' stop you from killing NPCs. Its not Blizzard fault, those doing the complaining want to do things to massively disrupt the game but dont' want their own gameplay disrputed as well. This comes back to those unreasoonable people who are NEVER happy. Certain other games can't add features that fight against other features. SB and Horizons can't add in a working, FUN PvE game. EVE won't attract an audience due to certain inherant play mechanics. Neither can ATITD, Ryzome and a host of others. EQ2 can't/wont add well done PvP. However, Blizzard can add in housing later or more detailed crafting skills. They will be adding in some persistant PvP goals. If the DEMAND is there, Blizzard can actually improve their game and open it up for even more people or make those already playing, happier. These other companies just don't have the demand in the first place or the game is too pigeon holed. Get it? Accoring to most reviews, the reasno most MMORPG aren't played by many people is because they're just not FUN for most players. GO read the reviews. WOW is fun for most people. Thats not opinion. Thats just FACT!! Thats why 4 million people are playing. Thats why people never interested in the genre are playing. Admit it already. How you feel about a game doesn't matter, when 4 Million people disagree with you. You can say WOW isn't fun for YOU, but it sure is FUN for MOST! Thats really important. As for WOW being simple. Guess what? Its battle system has as much or more depth then EVERY previous comparable MMORPG. Don't agree? Compare skills, balance and speed of play. You just lost the argument. The closest one is AC and its only because of movement. Take into account skills, their varying effects, plus secondary items WOW allows you to use to supliment the battle system and you lost 10X over. The classes are actually balanced, which is almost unheard of. ANYONE can beat just about anyone else. You just can't do that in other MMORPGs. The fact that the battle system works for both PvE and PvP is an accomplishment. Don't confuse GOALS with the core gameplay. WOW PvP isnt' BAD because you can't make life miserable for other players or loot their corpse. YOU think thats bad. MOST people think thats horrible. For a turnbased battle system its the best yet and theres still a long way to go for the genre. Its travel system isn't so simple since it has more modes of travel than any other by FAR!!! Its dungeons have varying degrees of simplicity and complexity. More could be added, but theres so much already now. Just 10 months. The crafting is simple, buts you can't base a big succesful game around crafting. I already posted about it. You can disagree but the proof is the in the population numbers. Don't confuse depth with complicated. Don't confuse simple with streamlined. Theres a big difference. WOW is as simple as you want to make it. If there was a bigger demand from its playerbase, crafting will get better. Its not useless like some games also and doesn't break other parts of the game when it becomes useful. Theres a good balance right now and thats a good thing. As for variying interests in a game, OF COURSE its game interests. You can PvE alone or in groups. You can do dungeons or NOT. You can craft, fish, enchant, gather herbs or mine. You can RP if you want. You can play for an hour or 12 and still accomplish something. Balance of time commitment. You can PvP outside or in instances. You can get organized or not. You can generally just craft after you reach 60. Everything can be bought pretty much. You can make money just from the AH is you so desire from a lvl 1. Everything is related to some PvE, but thats the main point of the game, because thats what most people find fun. Theres nothing wrong with that. As soon as you get to 60, you dont' have to PvE EVER AGAIN. Not so in other MMORPGs. WOW is fun for lost of different play styles and thats important. It doesn't MATTER what you think. All that matters is that facts. 4 Million people playing of varrying interests and styles and they'r having fun. WHats so wrong with a game that lets you do that? If simple means, "I can't win", then you're generally alone. Until a MMORPG can actually prosper using a system where players have to give up or quit for another side to win, good luck with that.
I don't care if 3.5 (the actual number) 4, 5 or 10 million people are playing or not. Of those a large chunk are totally new players that have never played MMORPGs, and were enticed by the names "Blizzard" and "Warcraft". Blizzard has a strong franchise with Warcraft and that is the base they used. There is nothing magical about those numbers that Blizzard built. Numbers or reviews or the combination of the both don't say *anything* about the quality of a game. Its not a matter of quality if a game is successful or not its a matter of marketing (also paying the press to do favorable reviews or previews), timing and reputation (hyped games anyone?). And Blizzard has lots of influence, cash and reputation. So actually it would have been a wonder if the would have *stayed* below 1 mill subscribers. So please don't throw around numbers, they don't mean anything - at least related to a game's quality.
If WOW (the exact game with same features and bugs) would have been released by some small company under the name,... erm.. lets say "World of NorcWar", then you can be assured that they wouldn't even have half or even quarter the numbers. Most bugs, imbalances and tech issues (yes, I encountered a lot of them in my 6 months of play), are simply kindly ignored by the "it's a Blizzard game" veil of ignorance. This plus the fact that Blizzard could take inspiration of 6 years of online gaming that was pioneered by others surely helped their numbers, not just the "über"quality of the game.
WOW may work for you (have fun), but that doesn't mean its perfect. And since you are only stating the same "facts", while ignoring my arguments and points anyways I see no further point in continuing this discussion with you.
------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
I don't care if 3.5 (the actual number) 4, 5 or 10 million people are playing or not. Of those a large chunk are totally new players that have never played MMORPGs, and were enticed by the names "Blizzard" and "Warcraft". Blizzard has a strong franchise with Warcraft and that is the base they used. There is nothing magical about those numbers that Blizzard built. Numbers or reviews or the combination of the both don't say *anything* about the quality of a game. Its not a matter of quality if a game is successful or not its a matter of marketing (also paying the press to do favorable reviews or previews), timing and reputation (hyped games anyone?). And Blizzard has lots of influence, cash and reputation. So actually it would have been a wonder if the would have *stayed* below 1 mill subscribers. So please don't throw around numbers, they don't mean anything - at least related to a game's quality.
If WOW (the exact game with same features and bugs) would have been released by some small company under the name,... erm.. lets say "World of NorcWar", then you can be assured that they wouldn't even have half or even quarter the numbers. Most bugs, imbalances and tech issues (yes, I encountered a lot of them in my 6 months of play), are simply kindly ignored by the "it's a Blizzard game" veil of ignorance. This plus the fact that Blizzard could take inspiration of 6 years of online gaming that was pioneered by others surely helped their numbers, not just the "über"quality of the game.
WOW may work for you (have fun), but that doesn't mean its perfect. And since you are only stating the same "facts", while ignoring my arguments and points anyways I see no further point in continuing this discussion with you.
But, you can't ignore 4 million people=) Saying that if WOW didn't have a the Blizzard name is actually what doesn't matter because its hypothetical and no one will EVER know. What does matter is reality. Whats real is WOW is certainly a fun game agreed to by most people. If it kept you busy for 5 months, then hey, it had to be pretty fun for you too.
None of iWOWs problems are ignored. The thing is, other MMORPGs have problems and they outweigh whatever they do well. AC and its world events are completely OVERSHADOWED by rampant boting and cheating. SBs great concepts are completely negated by a horrible interface, bad graphics and bugs galore. Eve's cool community and open PvP is sadly made worhtless because the game itself is so slow and boring. Those are important issues. WOWs queue aren't really so bad when you consider what other MMORPG made you go through in that same time period. You have to put it perspective. Its balance issues are so minor compared to current balance issues in other MMORPGs. Every person who seems to think WOW has class balance issues also for some reason, always seem completely ignorant of other classes abilities. How convenient is it for someone who doesn't know much to think something isn't fair?
Is there a problem that Blizzard used the last 6+ yrs to research and make a better MMORPG? How dare they=) How dare they find a way to reach all these people who never would touch the genre and STILL keep people like me playing who've been here all along. Its called quailty across the board, in every facet of the game. Its NOT perfect. No game is. But, in 10 months, its more perfect than anything released prior. Thats enough to get 4 million people to play. Thats enough to beat out a MAJOR name in the genre, EQ. Thats enough to gather a large enough playerbase to add loads of features to keep those people happy and grow even more. How can you really bash them? You can't. You can criticise them for not doing what YOU wanted, but bash them for making a fun MMORPG that apeals all sorts of players across the board? You've got to appreciate that.
Comments
WoW has to be doing something right with so many subscribers.
I didnt mind playing the game at all.
Grinding and the "lack" of content doesnt just point to WoW. Its simply a problem that 99.99% of all mmorpgs occasionally face.
This is Blizzard's first mmorpg. Not a bad start.
They can only improve from here on out.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Well i think reason many have answered this post is at the laughable statement "wow cannot be legitimately bashed".
Fact is i can find something wrong with every mmorpg or that matter any game as NOTHING is ever perfect.
But as far as WoW is concerned many seems to feel blizzard can do not wrong .Well all are entitled to their opinon but same people(close to fanatism) seems to think people who find something wrong with WoW must be mad.
And blizzard is showing signs of believing this with slow updates.Only recently have they picked up the pace .
Watching closely what comes in next few weeks to see if i should re activate my account.
Hey guys,
As I am the original poster let me explain some things.
1. I said WoW cannot be legitimately bashed for 3 reasons.
a. To get your attention, b. to make a challenge for myself (would have been easier if I wasn't ridiculously tired), c. the game's whole point was to make money, so they did everything possible to attract the masses, since they attracted the masses by a large multiple over any other game, they're design succeeded.
Essentially, you don't think the designers knew all the criticisms would come, you don't think they knew what the gripes would be. Of course they knew, but they're goal was to attract the most people and they did it. End of story, most concepts in their game, the easy crafting, the question marks over NPC's head, etc, are made to attract people. It's within the design, they did it on purpose.
Yes it is true other games that spydr mentioned have better crafting or NPC concepts or whatever, but overall, they must have something broken about the game or else people would be playing that.
Now of course you can bash WoW legitimately, but make sure you bash it on something the designers were trying to do, don't bash it on something the designers purposely omitted for whatever reasons they had.
I skimmed some of the longer posts so I'll comment more on those when I have the chance to read them carefully. To Spydr, you did criticize and insult me in your original post on this thread just for your information.
Also, yes my post was flawed and I actually mentioned some of the flaws, maybe when I am at lvl 60 for some time I'll make another post about WoW.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
"...they must have something broken about the game or else people would be playing that." Ironically, this is the "apply today's subscriber-base standards to yesterday/all other games". AC1's been around for six years, still has more than enough subscribers to continue because they're long since in the profit and above the profit-point. Horizon's been gaining subscribers since they started pouring in the content/fixes. The quality of the game has nothing to do with the number of subscribers; it has to do with the criteria (quality, in whatever terms we define) used. In this case, I actually agree with the comments of your paragraph that starts with "essentially..."
Blizz set out to specifically draw in as many people as possible. They didn't do the complicated things, or anything flexible in design that gives the players input into the functioning/uniqueness of the world/items because that would potentially REDUCE the number of subscribers. I have said here and elsewhere: I admire them for achieving their goal. I for one prefer to have the flexibility in game mechanics support the players having input through their actions in the gameworld. That doesn't mean that that affects anyone else's gameplay of any particularl game -- have fun with what you find fun. Enjoy WoW. I did while I played it. It just had nothing to involve me, no game mechanics that supported ME doing anything that distinguished me from every other person.
To Spydr, you did criticize and insult me in your original post on this thread just for your information.
-- end quote --
the intention wasn't per se to insult the individual but the idiocy of making a blanket statement like the heading of the thread. ANY game can be criticised, and legitimately so, because on the criteria one uses to criticise the game. Not everyone likes the same things -- no different than saying "no one can bash GM legitimately". Sure they can. Easily.
Hey Spdyr,
Thanks for the well-thought out responses, my OP was clearly flawed and yes I did know that at the outset. One problem I have is that I feel like I can talk about MMORPG when this is my first one I played hahaha, I always feel qualified when I know I'm not compared to people that have played all of them. I just feel like If I think about it, I can come out with good insight, albeit lacking in overall comprehensiveness and accurate comparisons of other RPG's, but it is still fun to try at least, usually i'd do more research but I get excited when I think I have a good idea.
Of course games can be legitimately bashed when speaking in the correct context. Can WoW be bashed? Sure it can but you have to put it in the right context. For example, you have to look at it from all angles especially in the goal of the company and how the audience would react.
These are pretty good forums though. Stay tuned for my next well-thought out but ignorant and skewed post
.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I agree with most of what you said, but I think the game would be alot better if leveling was about 10x slower and if there was an XP penalty to dying. Not like the one in Everquest, but more like the one in Asheron's Call, where you earn an "xp debit" which you have to pay back before advancing. So you never lose a level but dying still slow you down so ppl are more careful and the dumb people get weeded out.
It's just way too easy to level, there are way too many incompetent people at 60, I see them in pickup groups and they are retards. You would think that in 60 levels you would play better.
The ONLY fault WoW has is encouraging a low quality playerbase, we literally have the worst players, the more immature and stupid players, no need to be careful, no need to do anything, it's just a candyland for little kids. Lalalala just go through and die...again..again..again..no penalty.
And then on the boards they have the nerve to be like "Well I'm 60, so I know what I'm talking about."
You can't AVOID getting to 60. If you login for 2 months and die 50 times an hour, you'll still be 60, so what is your opinion really worth?
I'm not a fan of WoW... at all. But I figured I would just say... just becuase it says 4 million subscribers doesn't mean just that. They just want it to look good. No doubt it is alot! but I have a room mate that is addictited to WoW... and he himself has 3-4 accounts... to blizzard they are just added as 3-4 subscribers... he also has friends with multiple accounts. What it should really say is 4 million subscritions. Therefore saying ANY game is great becuase of how many are playing it is all crap.
AND DON'T ASK ME WHY HE HAS MORE THEN ONE ACCOUNT... I DON'T GET IT EITHER.
Beyond wanting to play the opposing faction on the same PvP server, I see no reason for additional accounts. I believe you're allowed up to 10 characters per server, with 50 characters total.
I don't doubt that some of those subscriptions are duplicates, but I'd argue that those would be the exception.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Ive been 60 for 3 months and still cant stop playing.
WoW > all other mmo's
Why would a game that is geared toward casual gamers have a "robust" crafing system.
The problem is that experienced gamers are trying to apply a paradigm for other mmorpg's to wow. WoW is made to attract casual gamers to the mmorpg genre.
most casual gamers are not going to zip through the game to 60 and have nothing to do. Most casual gamers are not going to want to spend all their time looking for hundreds of mats to craft...
this is a casual game. It has to be evaluated on that.
I've played this game casually with a friend of mine and have only gotten to lvl 19. And I bought it when it came out. Becasue I play it for a few hours every few days or so... somtimes even more time passes.
But... when I actually get ingame it is a lot of fun.
You want pvp games then go to l2, GW, Shadowbane, DAOC etc.
There are so many other games out there where someone who plays many hours per day won't max out their character.
This game is lighthearted fun.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Wait queues? Lol, those have long been gone. I haven't seen those on either Azgalor or Archimonde (both High Pop Servers) in months.
If you're going to bash the game, get your facts straight. Been hanging out with Wepps too much?
Hum...Try playing battlegrounds as Alliance.
There you have it, wait queues. And it can be as long as 3-4 hs.
Not long ago (1-2 months) there were 200-300 ppl wait queues on Proudmoore (the server I play at).
If people don't like something about a game they're free to complain about it. Regardless of whether or not they're in the minority or majority that's their perogative.
Just because a game is successful doesn't mean that it's flawless.
Until you cancel your subscription, you are only helping to continue the cycle of mediocrity.
You are absolutely correct. However, the complaints should also be realistic. Complaining that it takes too long to play Battlegrounds or sign in have a great deal of merit.
Complaining that it takes a week to get to lvl 60 and there is nothing to do holds less if the game is designed for the casual in mind. I do suppose the complaint has validity with the "complainer" as they are being inconvenienced in some way but you have to be realistic.
It's like the opposite in Lineage 2, where the casual games complain that they will never be higher lvl and thus be able to take advantage of the higher end game content. Of course they are always told that the game might not be for them.
WoW just might not be for everybody (technical issues aside, which of course should be fixed).
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Its the nature of the criticism. No one is really saying the game is flawless. Of course it has some issues. The problem with criticism is when no thought is used before citing an issue.
Its like saying a Toyota is a BAD car because it doesn't look as nice as a Ferrari. Uuuuum. A Toyota is NOT a Ferrari. It doesn't cost as much as one and someone INTERESTED in a Ferrari shouldn't be interested in a Toyota.
Compare that comment to something as common as "WOWs PvP system doesn't allow me to change the world." UUuum. Besides that being a completely false statement, because you can change the world in WOW by killing NPCs, Blizzard already tried. You can completely shut down towns or CITIES for that matter. The problem with that feature is it doesn't work if you ALSO expect to retain a large playerbase. So, Blizzard wanted a large playerbase and they avoided a feature to insure that. See? If you want to play a game where you can change things and negatively effect others on a large scale, then go play those games. Its no accident the games that do allow you to do those things are NOT well produced, old, or have VERY low populations. Besides, Blizzard is re-thinking that option and trying to figure out a way to allow some persistant controllable objectives, because some people have expressed an interest. Unfortunately, they also know population imbalance will make those objectives trivial.
"WOW isn't immersive." Always a good one and COMPLETELY subjective. Saga of Ryzom and EVE are considered by the few people who play them, very immersive. Consequently, there is NOT much to do with little to no direction as to what you're supposed to do. For me, theres nothing immersive about a game that has no content or makes you travel through large empty areas. They might be immersive, but the BIGGEST knock on both of those games is that neither are very fun. I find WOW plenty immersive because the world is VERY detailed, well thought out, NOT boring, and everything has purpose. Immersion is feeling like you're in a living breathing world. WOW has every indication that lots of things are going on everywhere you look. Areas look like they're supposed to look. If handcrafted environments are not immersive then thats just an opinion.
You have to go into a game knowing what you can do and not complain when you can't do it. Don't complain when playing Baseball that it would be BETTER if you could tackle the runner. Baseball isn't about tackling the runner=) WOW is not about a deep crafting system. It has adaquate crafting. Plenty of players do it. Theres no shortage of players who enjoy whats in the game. Is it the GAME'S problem or your problem.
The great thing about a game well-made from the bottom up is that features can be added. WOW will add some persistant goals. Its on the website. WOW can improve crafting if they need to, but crafted items that are equal to found items disrupt the balance. Theres some amazing crafted gear. Its just not as varried as looted gear, BY DESIGN!!! Since most people playing the game enjoy fighting and dungeon crawling, THAT's where the effort is going. WOW can add more features to interest lots of people. Other games can not.
Can SB ever recover? Nope. Can AC2 ever recover? Nope. Can EVE ever become a fun game? Nope. Can FFXI ever become a game for casual people? NOPE. Can EQ2 ever bring in PvP that'll work? Most probably, nope. No developer spends 4 years on a game HOPING they'll just break even or have just enough to keep the game running. Its about making a profit. Thats the goal.
Blizzard wanted to make a FUN MMORPG that all sorts of players with different interests can enjoy that doesn't require huge time investment like previous games. They accomplished exactly that and MORE.
Even Feathermoon, a medium population RP server, gets queues sometimes. Once in a blue moon, and less now that the RP-PVP servers are all the rage. Still happens every once in a while and are usually less than a minute. Still though I'd much rather a queue that has a deffinate end to it than the countless login-server outages that end "whenever".
I don't know where you are getting your facts from, but that is definitely not true.
Have you ever stopped to think, since they were asking for the alternative, they would actually want it? Those kinds of things would gear the game more towards realism, and I know alot of people would appreciate a MMO like that.
I can't answer that question because 95% of the people couldn't agree on it, but at least 60% could. So here is some reasons for that 60% (or the hardcore) players.
1. Leveling is too fast
2. Servers have seriously bad lag
3. Classes are over powered
4. Gameplay is repetitive and end game is a bore (yes, I have reached level 60, only because my friends were playing)
5. You don't feel like an individual, every other high level character of your class will most likely have the same equipment, or will be trying to get it.
6. Community is full of too many annoying people
[quote]Originally posted by Cryomatrix
[b]I don't like country music, but It's intellectually challenged to say it sucks because you don't like it. Essentially if you look at most posts of WoW it is basically, It didn't appeal to me and therefore it sucks. The point I'm trying to make here is that opinion does not make a game good or it does not make a game bad. If most people have negative opinions about a game it is probably a bad game, if most people have positive opinions about a game it is most likely good.
[b][/quote]
Ok here are some facts for you then
1. The lag on WoW can be much worse then the average of another game's.
2. Blizzard team has weakened classes by taking away spells/effects (nerfing is rarely good).
3. A large amount of the community is full of people who are kids, and they aren't mature (when I say mature, I mean they have respect for other people, they aren't cussing all the time, they don't try to annoy people, so yes, that can be proven).
[quote]Originally posted by Cryomatrix
[b]In conclusion, make sure when you bash a game you are bashing a mechanism or a concept in a game that is an egregious error of the game that would have a negative effect on most of the audience. Also, you can't bash WoW, they succeeded completely in their objectives, they own the market, and there game is almost flawless in reference to the casual gamer. Since, the casual gamers make up most of the population, attracting them means attracting the people, attracting the people means attracting the money and in the end. MONEY RULES THE WORLD.
[b][/quote]
First you tell me that I can bash a mechanism or a concept, then you tell me I can't bash WoW?
If I disagree with a game element in WoW, and Blizzard does not fix it and they are aware of it, do you not think that we should have the right to voice our opinions?
You were right about this game being successfull because it was targeted to the casual gamer, I'm not going to argue that, but you sounded so caught up in your long words that you started to trip over yourself and you sounded like an idiot. Casual gamers aren't the mass of the market, so if they were trying to get as many people as they wanted, they were not successful. I can honestly say alot of the reasons that the majority of the market plays this mmo is (Well actually, it is the third most played according to charts) because it is made by Blizzard (they made Diablo, Starcraft, they have alot of good history to back them up), and it is a Warcraft franchise (large player base).
NOTE: Sorry, the edit was for trying to get the quotes to work.
I don't know where you are getting your facts from, but that is definitely not true.
Have you ever stopped to think, since they were asking for the alternative, they would actually want it? Those kinds of things would gear the game more towards realism, and I know alot of people would appreciate a MMO like that.
I can't answer that question because 95% of the people couldn't agree on it, but at least 60% could. So here is some reasons for that 60% (or the hardcore) players.
1. Leveling is too fast
2. Servers have seriously bad lag
3. Classes are over powered
4. Gameplay is repetitive and end game is a bore (yes, I have reached level 60, only because my friends were playing)
5. You don't feel like an individual, every other high level character of your class will most likely have the same equipment, or will be trying to get it.
6. Community is full of too many annoying people
[quote]Originally posted by Cryomatrix
[b]
I don't like country music, but It's intellectually challenged to say it sucks because you don't like it. Essentially if you look at most posts of WoW it is basically, It didn't appeal to me and therefore it sucks. The point I'm trying to make here is that opinion does not make a game good or it does not make a game bad. If most people have negative opinions about a game it is probably a bad game, if most people have positive opinions about a game it is most likely good.
[b][/quote]
Ok here are some facts for you then
1. The lag on WoW can be much worse then the average of another game's.
2. Blizzard team has weakened classes by taking away spells/effects (nerfing is rarely good).
3. A large amount of the community is full of people who are kids, and they aren't mature (when I say mature, I mean they have respect for other people, they aren't cussing all the time, they don't try to annoy people, so yes, that can be proven).
[quote]Originally posted by Cryomatrix
[b]
In conclusion, make sure when you bash a game you are bashing a mechanism or a concept in a game that is an egregious error of the game that would have a negative effect on most of the audience. Also, you can't bash WoW, they succeeded completely in their objectives, they own the market, and there game is almost flawless in reference to the casual gamer. Since, the casual gamers make up most of the population, attracting them means attracting the people, attracting the people means attracting the money and in the end. MONEY RULES THE WORLD.
[b][/quote]
First you tell me that I can bash a mechanism or a concept, then you tell me I can't bash WoW?
If I disagree with a game element in WoW, and Blizzard does not fix it and they are aware of it, do you not think that we should have the right to voice our opinions?
You were right about this game being successfull because it was targeted to the casual gamer, I'm not going to argue that, but you sounded so caught up in your long words that you started to trip over yourself and you sounded like an idiot. Casual gamers aren't the mass of the market, so if they were trying to get as many people as they wanted, they were not successful. I can honestly say alot of the reasons that the majority of the market plays this mmo is (Well actually, it is the third most played according to charts) because it is made by Blizzard (they made Diablo, Starcraft, they have alot of good history to back them up), and it is a Warcraft franchise (large player base).
NOTE: Sorry, all the edits were for trying to get the quotes to work.
both of you need to link where you got your info on what % is casual and what is hardcore. one of you says 95% is casual and the other says 60% is hardcore. i can pretty much say you are both wrong. 95% is a little far fetched my friend tho you could be right, but theres no way in gods green earth that 60% of all video game players are hardcore gamers. that was just a stupid comment....so all the millions of dollers spent not only in console games but pc casual games only make up for 40% of the video game market?? lol give me a link to this stat beacuse untill then you my friend are full of it imo.
just because you are a hardcore mmo player dosent mean everyone els should be, (this comming from a fan of the hardcore mmo games) people love wow because it is a casual and easy game. allthough i do agree with alot of your opinions on what you think a good mmo is, but thats all it is....an opinion....
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Wow, everyone wants to be right about something that the thread is continously derailed. Now I don't feel like giving my opinion because it seems like spyd is the only one who will actaully admit he does not represent the word of god.
Let me just say why I stopped playing WoW, I'll try to do what En1gma did so hopefully none of this qualifies as opinion and I won't incite the wraith of the fan hordes.
1. Not enough time for endgame content - I did the lesser 3-4 instances many many times, got all the shiny gear I wanted from them, all that I really had left was MC, but the only 2 clans on my server and faction that were running MC required too much dedication for DKP and 6-8 hour blocks of time for my schedule and liking. Didn't feel very challenged running instances either, since each time it was exactly the same it was like we were all robots, we all knew the drill.
2. Didn't like the PvP - Well lets just say I like war and not war games(oh I just know I'm going to get the goarmy link for this), BG instances just don't do it for me, what EVE does is exactly how I like it.
3. Because of 1 & 2 I'm left with nothing to do but start an alliance alt, which I really didnt want to do.
Said goodbye to my pet zerg and cancelled, had some good times though.
----------------------------------
MMOs Retired From: Earth and Beyond, Project Entropia, There, A Tale in the Desert, Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Eve Online, City of Heroes/Villains.
MMOs Currently (worth) Playing: None.
MMO hopefuls: Age of Conan.
All quoted text written by Josher
What does this has to do with MMORPGs? Why shouldn't one who is "interested" a Ferrari be interested in a Toyota? Plus there are actually quite a lot better looking cars than a Ferrari without the enormous price tag. To return to MMORPGs - the purchasing costs of the most prominent MMORPGs and their upkeep (monthly fees) are roughly the same. So the only thing that matters here is the choice you make according to what game suits you most. If you can't afford one MMORG, you probably can't afford any other either. So, what was your point again?
ROFL, a classic...... "its on the website". Reminds me of "Very Bad Things" when the character played by Cameron Diaz says: "It's true, I saw it on TV".
Eventhough Blizzard has an above average tendency to actually implement announced content, it is no gurantee how well or if at all it will be brought into the game. I hope we can agree here that only what is in game counts.
This post gets even more entertaining.
Why the hell shouldn't other games be able to add content/features? Even some that interests "lots of people" (whatever your definition of "lots" here is). Hmm, but maybe you are right and the new features/content that appears continously on Tranquility Server (EVE Online) was hacked-in by some players that were sooo pissed off by CCP (the game developers) not adding content..... oh my...
I think you are biased, or frustrated..... or maybe both. I haven't played most games you mention for longer time, but at least about EVE you are wrong. You must have meant "EVE is not fun *for me*", right?
So all the other game developers wanted to make boring games?
Also, WoW requires *tremendous* time investement for your character to grow (like most other MMORPGs tbh). Playing it for one or two hours per day (on average) won't get you anywhere. Getting together a group (even in a guild or close-knit group) for an instance quest usually takes that amount of time alone - that is if you find other players to do that quest at all. And then you need the time for the instance itself - and if you are "especially lucky" and you got one or more dumbasses in the group you can start all over again a few times. The same with non-instance quests, it simply takes too long to get people together. I don't say that it's different from other fantasy MMORPGs, but its far from your stated "doesn't require huge time investment".
And what do you mean by ".. players of different interests can enjoy". Do you mean RL interests or in game interests? If the former I can assure you that other games are played by gamers of very varying backgrounds. If you mean the latter than I have to tell you that you just contradiced yourself, since you claimed a bit farther above that WoW is for mainly players who enjoy fighting and dungeon crawling - and that is not what I call "different interests". Yes..... actually, a very true point you made there, accidentally I admit, but very true. WoW caters mainly to those that want action and kill stuff (i.e. typical Diablo players), and not to those who love variety and lots of possibilities. And no, X amount of instances does not equal X amount of possibilities.
@ topic (finally!): Yes, I agree that "bashing" a game, no matter which, usually leads to nowhere. Bashing in this sense I define as saying something is bad (to stay polite) and giving no arguments or reason why it is bad. If you have to criticise something then at least say why you think its bad. Though if you don't like "your" game to be "bashed" by others, you have to abstain from browsing open forums anyways.
WoW was designed as a mass market product, therefore it offers simple gameplay. Since it's mass market the game *has* to be simple, because the collective IQ of humans is very low. Complexity or depth of play are not among WoW's long suits, for that simple reason. If you try to look at it as objectively as possible you'll see that these "facts" are not far off. Everything else (Graphics, Gameplay, etc.) about WoW is a matter of taste, past experiences, and mindset.
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
You overanalyzed a very simple metephore about the cars. It was there to drive home the concept that some players WANTING everything without asking why you can't have everything. Your opinion about how good a car looks means it migh've went right over your head. Example...People complain that they can't solo past a certain point. HELLO unreasonable person. Name another MMORPG that lets you solo to max lvl and actually have fun doing it? Sorry, can't do it can you.
Sorry, but so far ,Blizzard has added everything they've said, compared to other developers who don't even get in working features at launch. Let alone a working title. The bigest screw up has been the Honor system and that was removed because of all the hardcore gamers in beta complaining about consquences. They didn't want them which would've led to a broken game. Blizzard just removed Honor completely in the begining. The original idea didn't work in their implimentation but still can work. Everything else has been added and generally fixed without breaking the game. Previously, you could kill all NPCs without recourse. THE game was being broken because of it. It was fixed. Don't like it? Thats because you must enjoy playing broken MMORPGs. Yet, they didnt' stop you from killing NPCs. Its not Blizzard fault, those doing the complaining want to do things to massively disrupt the game but dont' want their own gameplay disrputed as well. This comes back to those unreasoonable people who are NEVER happy.
Certain other games can't add features that fight against other features. SB and Horizons can't add in a working, FUN PvE game. EVE won't attract an audience due to certain inherant play mechanics. Neither can ATITD, Ryzome and a host of others. EQ2 can't/wont add well done PvP. However, Blizzard can add in housing later or more detailed crafting skills. They will be adding in some persistant PvP goals. If the DEMAND is there, Blizzard can actually improve their game and open it up for even more people or make those already playing, happier. These other companies just don't have the demand in the first place or the game is too pigeon holed. Get it?
Accoring to most reviews, the reasno most MMORPG aren't played by many people is because they're just not FUN for most players. GO read the reviews. WOW is fun for most people. Thats not opinion. Thats just FACT!! Thats why 4 million people are playing. Thats why people never interested in the genre are playing. Admit it already. How you feel about a game doesn't matter, when 4 Million people disagree with you. You can say WOW isn't fun for YOU, but it sure is FUN for MOST! Thats really important.
As for WOW being simple. Guess what? Its battle system has as much or more depth then EVERY previous comparable MMORPG. Don't agree? Compare skills, balance and speed of play. You just lost the argument. The closest one is AC and its only because of movement. Take into account skills, their varying effects, plus secondary items WOW allows you to use to supliment the battle system and you lost 10X over. The classes are actually balanced, which is almost unheard of. ANYONE can beat just about anyone else. You just can't do that in other MMORPGs. The fact that the battle system works for both PvE and PvP is an accomplishment. Don't confuse GOALS with the core gameplay. WOW PvP isnt' BAD because you can't make life miserable for other players or loot their corpse. YOU think thats bad. MOST people think thats horrible. For a turnbased battle system its the best yet and theres still a long way to go for the genre.
Its travel system isn't so simple since it has more modes of travel than any other by FAR!!!
Its dungeons have varying degrees of simplicity and complexity. More could be added, but theres so much already now. Just 10 months.
The crafting is simple, buts you can't base a big succesful game around crafting. I already posted about it. You can disagree but the proof is the in the population numbers. Don't confuse depth with complicated. Don't confuse simple with streamlined. Theres a big difference. WOW is as simple as you want to make it. If there was a bigger demand from its playerbase, crafting will get better. Its not useless like some games also and doesn't break other parts of the game when it becomes useful. Theres a good balance right now and thats a good thing.
As for variying interests in a game, OF COURSE its game interests.
You can PvE alone or in groups. You can do dungeons or NOT. You can craft, fish, enchant, gather herbs or mine. You can RP if you want. You can play for an hour or 12 and still accomplish something. Balance of time commitment. You can PvP outside or in instances. You can get organized or not. You can generally just craft after you reach 60. Everything can be bought pretty much. You can make money just from the AH is you so desire from a lvl 1. Everything is related to some PvE, but thats the main point of the game, because thats what most people find fun. Theres nothing wrong with that. As soon as you get to 60, you dont' have to PvE EVER AGAIN. Not so in other MMORPGs. WOW is fun for lost of different play styles and thats important. It doesn't MATTER what you think. All that matters is that facts. 4 Million people playing of varrying interests and styles and they'r having fun. WHats so wrong with a game that lets you do that?
If simple means, "I can't win", then you're generally alone. Until a MMORPG can actually prosper using a system where players have to give up or quit for another side to win, good luck with that.
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I don't care if 3.5 (the actual number) 4, 5 or 10 million people are playing or not. Of those a large chunk are totally new players that have never played MMORPGs, and were enticed by the names "Blizzard" and "Warcraft". Blizzard has a strong franchise with Warcraft and that is the base they used. There is nothing magical about those numbers that Blizzard built. Numbers or reviews or the combination of the both don't say *anything* about the quality of a game. Its not a matter of quality if a game is successful or not its a matter of marketing (also paying the press to do favorable reviews or previews), timing and reputation (hyped games anyone?). And Blizzard has lots of influence, cash and reputation. So actually it would have been a wonder if the would have *stayed* below 1 mill subscribers. So please don't throw around numbers, they don't mean anything - at least related to a game's quality.
If WOW (the exact game with same features and bugs) would have been released by some small company under the name,... erm.. lets say "World of NorcWar", then you can be assured that they wouldn't even have half or even quarter the numbers. Most bugs, imbalances and tech issues (yes, I encountered a lot of them in my 6 months of play), are simply kindly ignored by the "it's a Blizzard game" veil of ignorance. This plus the fact that Blizzard could take inspiration of 6 years of online gaming that was pioneered by others surely helped their numbers, not just the "über"quality of the game.
WOW may work for you (have fun), but that doesn't mean its perfect. And since you are only stating the same "facts", while ignoring my arguments and points anyways I see no further point in continuing this discussion with you.
------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
If WOW (the exact game with same features and bugs) would have been released by some small company under the name,... erm.. lets say "World of NorcWar", then you can be assured that they wouldn't even have half or even quarter the numbers. Most bugs, imbalances and tech issues (yes, I encountered a lot of them in my 6 months of play), are simply kindly ignored by the "it's a Blizzard game" veil of ignorance. This plus the fact that Blizzard could take inspiration of 6 years of online gaming that was pioneered by others surely helped their numbers, not just the "über"quality of the game.
WOW may work for you (have fun), but that doesn't mean its perfect. And since you are only stating the same "facts", while ignoring my arguments and points anyways I see no further point in continuing this discussion with you.
But, you can't ignore 4 million people=) Saying that if WOW didn't have a the Blizzard name is actually what doesn't matter because its hypothetical and no one will EVER know. What does matter is reality. Whats real is WOW is certainly a fun game agreed to by most people. If it kept you busy for 5 months, then hey, it had to be pretty fun for you too.
None of iWOWs problems are ignored. The thing is, other MMORPGs have problems and they outweigh whatever they do well. AC and its world events are completely OVERSHADOWED by rampant boting and cheating. SBs great concepts are completely negated by a horrible interface, bad graphics and bugs galore. Eve's cool community and open PvP is sadly made worhtless because the game itself is so slow and boring. Those are important issues. WOWs queue aren't really so bad when you consider what other MMORPG made you go through in that same time period. You have to put it perspective. Its balance issues are so minor compared to current balance issues in other MMORPGs. Every person who seems to think WOW has class balance issues also for some reason, always seem completely ignorant of other classes abilities. How convenient is it for someone who doesn't know much to think something isn't fair?
Is there a problem that Blizzard used the last 6+ yrs to research and make a better MMORPG? How dare they=) How dare they find a way to reach all these people who never would touch the genre and STILL keep people like me playing who've been here all along. Its called quailty across the board, in every facet of the game. Its NOT perfect. No game is. But, in 10 months, its more perfect than anything released prior. Thats enough to get 4 million people to play. Thats enough to beat out a MAJOR name in the genre, EQ. Thats enough to gather a large enough playerbase to add loads of features to keep those people happy and grow even more. How can you really bash them? You can't. You can criticise them for not doing what YOU wanted, but bash them for making a fun MMORPG that apeals all sorts of players across the board? You've got to appreciate that.