WoW persists because it is popular, it isn't popular becaue it persists. People play WoW because it has alot of people to play with, their friends play it, their families and because many of them don't know much about MMOs outside of WoW. GW2 might be a big hit in the MMO world, but it doesn't reach the console crowd or the non-internet folks (people that think of the internet as email and WoW). Without mass media (TV, Radio, Billboards) exposure, and lots of it, no game will approach WoW numbers. With the millions thrown into development, few games spend the millions more needed to get advertise. GW2 definately won't, they don't even invest in a decent web developer. Their website is one of the worst MMO websites I've seen. You have to hunt for information, the forums are hidden and disabled, and the launch date isn't even on it (was only on arena.net when I checked). This isn't acceptable in today's market. When Blizzard launched Diablo 3 they had a build up website, adds all over, and plastered the launch date everywhere. The also let everyone that wanted to try it do so before launch. Like D3 or not, pre-order or hate it, you probably knew it was coming.
Swtors main flaw was it was just yet another wow clone/wananbe, cept more singleplayer than most mmo's should be. Game got boring really fast due to lack of endgame, and poor combat, graphics also looked dated due to how long it was in devolopment. In all the game just to be frank sucked, because it didn't do anything unique at all or really even attempt to.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Way too wordy. Didn't read. Everyone knows what went wrong wtih TOR and can make a short list that gets all of the major reasons.
C'mon Frodo... you're smarter then this.
If you really can't focus enough to read a page of text (god forbid) then maybe it's not good to participate in the following discussion? Just saying.
The OP was actually a pretty good read.
Has anyone from Bioware or EA actually been given the boot post launch of SWtOR anyone know?
SWTOR is a very simple case study. It's not complicated at ALL.
1) Released too soon. It had piss poor combat response and was missing key features a WOW clone should have such as group finders (not to mention cross server capability), rated PVP and guild tools
2) Poor priorities - failed to understand the genre/market and focused way too much on story for a MMO
3) Poor replayability for characters of the same faction. No alternate planets to choose from
4) Closed minded developers who couldn't see the flaws in the game as released and waited too long to finally address them
5) Space combat on rails
6) Too much phasing/sharding
1.3 will be the state of the game as it should have been released, minus some of the end game content that could have been added later.
The problem with your logic is in believing that giving this game even another year of development would have helped it. It wouldn't. The problems are very fundamental in the design of the game. It's just boring, and I don't care how much you polish it, or how much content you add. What people are finding is that all this "story driven content" actually just serves to make the game even less engaging and more passive. Even if you were able to suffer through one play through, I don't know how anyone could stand to re-roll.
Excellent post. I was always saying that the game launched a year early until i actually thought about it for a sec. The core of the game is fundamentally flawed as it disconnects you from the game world in almost every aspect.
It's my belief that BW assumed that the future was some blend of co-op/lobby MMO with a monthly fee. I'm sure they looked at WoW and saw everyone just standing around in town waiting on queues to pop and thought "hey we can charge $15 a month for this!"
You can't go straight to that, nor should you ever in my opinion, without a living and breathing world to explore first.
Development began at the end of 2005 when Lucas Arts came to Bioware to create a SW MMO. LA had been disappointed by its participation with SOE which, in 2003, had resulted in an open, sandbox-type game. In terms of revenue, this game had not compared well with the World of Warcraft (also launched in 2005) which was a relatively closed, themepark-type of game.
LA therefore commissioned Bioware to make a similarly inspired themepark-type of MMO but around the SW IP.
Bioware insisted on certain terms:
Firstly, that the development and production schedule NOT be set by LA (LA had a bad reputation for insisting that its software partners release games according to its own marketing schedules that usually tied in with some film or DVD release which sometimes meant that games were released unfinished eg KOTOR 2). In other words, Bioware would set the release date and the game would come out when it decided the game was ready, not LA.
Secondly, that while Bioware would make a SW MMO to LA's specifications (ie. a themepark), it insisted that the game would be driven by features that were the particular strengths of Bioware: particularly voice-drive story.
In 2005, Bioware a small-to-mediu, sized development house. Individual games were created by individual studios withinj the company. So everyone knew everybody and what hey were doing, and management style was relatively relaxed. In this personal, individual driven environment, a feature-rich, innovative game began to take shape.
Bioware's contract to make a SW-game with LA - plus its own successful DA and ME IPs - made it a very attractive prospect for acquisition by a larger company - in this case, EA.
EA's reputation within the industry, especially amongst MMO games, was not high. It was known for buying smaller studios that owned valuable IPs or game licences, and essentially running them into the ground by providing marketing-led (ie. not feature-led) products that quickly and drastically devalued the value of the studio brand.
But EA had also learned its lesson. Not only did it decide to take a hands-off approach to the development of SWTOR but it also promised the development team vast resources, esepcially in marketing, to create the game their way. And when EA did put its oar in - like when John Riccietello, EA CEO, announced that SWTOR would be e cash-shop driven game in 2010 - he was quickly contradicted by the Bioware devs who informed him that the game would be subsriber driven and Riccietello had to issue a 'correction'.
So essentially, the Bioware team inside EA was in a superb position in 2007:
- It had the authority to create a SW MMO to its own specifications;
- It was free from any production timetable set-down by LA;
- It was provided with unprcedented levels of resources by EA.
It's at this point that the whole enterprise began to unravel and led, ultimately, to the release of a very poor game.
The problem was Bioware itself.
Having been a small, responsive company, Bioware was now a much larger entity. Not only was it charged with making an extremely large Star Wars game but it also had to put out other games in its ME and DA IPs.
No longer could one studio handle all this output. Work on SWTOR was distributed physically amongst a number of other Bioware studios, including non-Bioware studios in EA and third-party studios and developers.
This made the management of the game's development much harder to coordinate. Bioware's executives were not accustomed to multi-stream, multi-site project management. To make matters worse, what had previously been strengths - EA's hand-off approach to management and LA's schedule-free development process - meant that the production was not subject to any budgetary or timetable discipline. Development just wandered along with different studios doing thier own thing.
So a game that really should have taken about four years to produce approached eight years in production - and its budget expanded astronomically, into hundreds of millions of dollars.
These weren't the only problems. While the various developer teams were promised they could pack the game with new and rich features, Bioware weas never actually a technically proficient developmemnt studios. Kotor, ME and DA are - in terms of software, graphics and animation - very simple, very limited games compared with contemporary games of the time like Oblivion or Witcher.
And to make things work, it turned out that the technical skills equired to make a good non-networked SRPG are totally insufficient to make a good networked MMORPG. Bioware had no experience of such things as - just to name a very few - instantaneous PVP combat, player/system economy balancing, landscape design for multiple players etc.
By the beginning of 2011, it was obvious that - in business terms - a disaster was brewing. EA could no longer afford to keep shogvelling tens of mllions of dollars into the gam. Its own shareprice was plummeting and needed to be buttressed. It began to apply proper business scrutiny to SWTOR and found that the game, after seven years, was far from finished. Worse than that, key technical, graphic, animation, GUI and other features being developed by different studios did not integrate with each other. It was also obvious that Bioware did not have the managers capable of pulling these many different strands together any ime soon.
So EA laid down the law. It insisted that Bioware launch the game in whatever kind of state it could by the end of 2011. It sacked - or 'persuaded to resign' - Gordon Walton, the general studio manager (and the man whose project SWTOR had been from inception) and also Eric Brown, the CFO of EA. who had allowed the financial haemmorhage to go on.
During that year, the actual game took real shape - an exercise in bare-bones playability. The innovative and rich features were simply cancelled across the board. Stories were 'finished' and inserted into the game even if they were dull and made no sense; design details were reused over and over in every landscape (is there really only one type of tree across the whole galaxy?); character and mob animation was left unfinished; design and graphics were farmed out to third parties on the basis of price not ability... etc, etc. You know the rest.
And so,l because of intrinsic faults in the development process itself, a deeply flawed, essentially unfnished game was released.
Who is to blame?
EA for being hands-off and ploughing in tonnes of money? LA which, for once, didn't insist on some mad release date to fit in with its own merchandising shedules? Bioware's managers who had neither the technical skills nor the porject management experience to make the game in the first place?
All the parties were trying not to repeat the mistakes they had made in the past. The pity of it is, that left them free to make innovative, new mistakes in the future.
Pretty much match what the devs themselves said how they screwed the development of the game:
However, I believe you missed one large point of just exactly why TOR tanked and, to be honest, I doubt if anyone would have picked it up unless you were a long term player of SWG.
BioWare, after LA went to them in Dec 05 (after SOE's Nov 15th NGE debackle), then went directly over to SOE's studio and hired a large amount of SOE's NGE devs. They took on so many of these guys, instead of moving them all up to their existing studio, they created a new studio in Austin TX, where SOE's studio is. These guys thought they already had a "winning plan" and that "marketing" just screwed up the NGE so bad that the entire CHANGE tanked in SWG. (see Rubenfields' blog, in it he says "it wasn't the CHANGES themselves" but it was all marketing's fault). So, armed with this "tried and true version" of making an MMO (basicly a WoW clone), they went off in that direction, again, to make the "perfect NGE", this time with marketing full well on board. And BioWare's marketing did a great job. The pre-launch hype of TOR was something I haven't seen in any other game, before nor after. Marketing did their jobs well. 2.4 million boxes sold, rather incredible if you think about it. I admit that I fell for it as well. 2 $150.00 boxes here, sitting on the shelf collecting dust with the wife and I, both unsubbed.
One would of thought that after the failures of the other WoW clones, while TOR was in development, a shift in design might have been ordered in TOR, but nope, these developers just knew they were right and no1 was going to tell them any differently. (same as they acted, and still act, regarding the original NGE). I've seen the same types of developer mindsets over in TOR that the playerbase battled for most of the 8 years of SWG. But, after all, SOE Austin ( I call it the "blixtev mentality) trained these guys, what else would anyone expect?
However, the fundamental concept design was just as lacking as the original NGE. With all the WoW clones we've seen come and go, it never ceases to amaze me that developers still hold onto this concept. With all the other problems the OP notes out, this made for the perfect storm basicly in MMO failure and massive playerbase bleed that hasn't been seen before nor after as well. Rubenfield went on and on, in his blog, about a SWG 10K per month sub bleed (after CU, their 1st round of CHANGES). The amount of sub bleed in TOR would of probably gave him a heart attack.
Sad to think, that if the current player estimates of TOR subs are correct, (even seen on these boards), that SWG was larger in playerbase, before CU/NGE, than TOR is today, much less the last massive CHANGE that pretty much killed SWG, C6CD. From what I can see, the sub bleed in TOR still continues and it is pretty interesting to watch where this all will end up at.
However, I believe you missed one large point of just exactly why TOR tanked and, to be honest, I doubt if anyone would have picked it up unless you were a long term player of SWG.
BioWare, after LA went to them in Dec 05 (after SOE's Nov 15th NGE debackle), then went directly over to SOE's studio and hired a large amount of SOE's NGE devs. They took on so many of these guys, instead of moving them all up to their existing studio, they created a new studio in Austin TX, where SOE's studio is. These guys thought they already had a "winning plan" and that "marketing" just screwed up the NGE so bad that the entire CHANGE tanked in SWG. (see Rubenfields' blog, in it he says "it wasn't the CHANGES themselves" but it was all marketing's fault). So, armed with this "tried and true version" of making an MMO (basicly a WoW clone), they went off in that direction, again, to make the "perfect NGE", this time with marketing full well on board. And BioWare's marketing did a great job. The pre-launch hype of TOR was something I haven't seen in any other game, before nor after. Marketing did their jobs well. 2.4 million boxes sold, rather incredible if you think about it. I admit that I fell for it as well. 2 $150.00 boxes here, sitting on the shelf collecting dust with the wife and I, both unsubbed.
One would of thought that after the failures of the other WoW clones, while TOR was in development, a shift in design might have been ordered in TOR, but nope, these developers just knew they were right and no1 was going to tell them any differently. (same as they acted, and still act, regarding the original NGE). I've seen the same types of developer mindsets over in TOR that the playerbase battled for most of the 8 years of SWG. But, after all, SOE Austin ( I call it the "blixtev mentality) trained these guys, what else would anyone expect?
However, the fundamental concept design was just as lacking as the original NGE. With all the WoW clones we've seen come and go, it never ceases to amaze me that developers still hold onto this concept. With all the other problems the OP notes out, this made for the perfect storm basicly in MMO failure and massive playerbase bleed that hasn't been seen before nor after as well. Rubenfield went on and on, in his blog, about a SWG 10K per month sub bleed (after CU, their 1st round of CHANGES). The amount of sub bleed in TOR would of probably gave him a heart attack.
Sad to think, that if the current player estimates of TOR subs are correct, (even seen on these boards), that SWG was larger in playerbase, before CU/NGE, than TOR is today, much less the last massive CHANGE that pretty much killed SWG, C6CD. From what I can see, the sub bleed in TOR still continues and it is pretty interesting to watch where this all will end up at.
Funny but always felt TOR was the NGE LA wanted.
I do blame LA as much as SOE for SWG failure but most people tend to forget LA was deeply involved in the NGE and we all know the proeminent people from NGE are (or were) working at BioWare.
Mostly: clueless management team that doesn't know how to deliver project of such scope.
What I honestly don't get is why the leads and especially the producer is still on his throne.
Wow - I know it seems hard to believe but I've never seen that first article at all. It does go to prove that the problems with SWTOR lie in its shambolically directionless and disasterously expensive production process. Great find.
Mostly: clueless management team that doesn't know how to deliver project of such scope.
What I honestly don't get is why the leads and especially the producer is still on his throne.
Wow - I know it seems hard to believe but I've never seen that first article at all. It does go to prove that the problems with SWTOR lie in its shambolically directionless and disasterously expensive production process. Great find.
ADDITIONAL; It's no surprise to find that Dallas Dickinson, 'Head of Production' for SWTOR, was one of those responsible for delivering this mess to market. He was also one of the most incompetent, dishonest and destructibve producers behind the NGE SWG. He's like the Typhoid Mary of MMOs. How does he keep getting hired? Why isn't he fired?
However, I believe you missed one large point of just exactly why TOR tanked and, to be honest, I doubt if anyone would have picked it up unless you were a long term player of SWG.
BioWare, after LA went to them in Dec 05 (after SOE's Nov 15th NGE debackle), then went directly over to SOE's studio and hired a large amount of SOE's NGE devs. They took on so many of these guys, instead of moving them all up to their existing studio, they created a new studio in Austin TX, where SOE's studio is. These guys thought they already had a "winning plan" and that "marketing" just screwed up the NGE so bad that the entire CHANGE tanked in SWG. (see Rubenfields' blog, in it he says "it wasn't the CHANGES themselves" but it was all marketing's fault). So, armed with this "tried and true version" of making an MMO (basicly a WoW clone), they went off in that direction, again, to make the "perfect NGE", this time with marketing full well on board. And BioWare's marketing did a great job. The pre-launch hype of TOR was something I haven't seen in any other game, before nor after. Marketing did their jobs well. 2.4 million boxes sold, rather incredible if you think about it. I admit that I fell for it as well. 2 $150.00 boxes here, sitting on the shelf collecting dust with the wife and I, both unsubbed.
One would of thought that after the failures of the other WoW clones, while TOR was in development, a shift in design might have been ordered in TOR, but nope, these developers just knew they were right and no1 was going to tell them any differently. (same as they acted, and still act, regarding the original NGE). I've seen the same types of developer mindsets over in TOR that the playerbase battled for most of the 8 years of SWG. But, after all, SOE Austin ( I call it the "blixtev mentality) trained these guys, what else would anyone expect?
However, the fundamental concept design was just as lacking as the original NGE. With all the WoW clones we've seen come and go, it never ceases to amaze me that developers still hold onto this concept. With all the other problems the OP notes out, this made for the perfect storm basicly in MMO failure and massive playerbase bleed that hasn't been seen before nor after as well. Rubenfield went on and on, in his blog, about a SWG 10K per month sub bleed (after CU, their 1st round of CHANGES). The amount of sub bleed in TOR would of probably gave him a heart attack.
Sad to think, that if the current player estimates of TOR subs are correct, (even seen on these boards), that SWG was larger in playerbase, before CU/NGE, than TOR is today, much less the last massive CHANGE that pretty much killed SWG, C6CD. From what I can see, the sub bleed in TOR still continues and it is pretty interesting to watch where this all will end up at.
Very nice - and very true - addition to the main argument. You *are* right. SWTOR *is* the NGE SWG the way SOE developers wanted it. After all, think how many ex-SOE and LA personalities actually worked on this project:
Gordon Walton
Rich Vogel
Julio Torres
Haydon Blackman
Gabe Amatangelo
Dallas Dickinson etc etc
I am sure there are plenty of others but these are senior developers, producers etc.
However, I believe you missed one large point of just exactly why TOR tanked and, to be honest, I doubt if anyone would have picked it up unless you were a long term player of SWG.
BioWare, after LA went to them in Dec 05 (after SOE's Nov 15th NGE debackle), then went directly over to SOE's studio and hired a large amount of SOE's NGE devs. They took on so many of these guys, instead of moving them all up to their existing studio, they created a new studio in Austin TX, where SOE's studio is. These guys thought they already had a "winning plan" and that "marketing" just screwed up the NGE so bad that the entire CHANGE tanked in SWG. (see Rubenfields' blog, in it he says "it wasn't the CHANGES themselves" but it was all marketing's fault). So, armed with this "tried and true version" of making an MMO (basicly a WoW clone), they went off in that direction, again, to make the "perfect NGE", this time with marketing full well on board. And BioWare's marketing did a great job. The pre-launch hype of TOR was something I haven't seen in any other game, before nor after. Marketing did their jobs well. 2.4 million boxes sold, rather incredible if you think about it. I admit that I fell for it as well. 2 $150.00 boxes here, sitting on the shelf collecting dust with the wife and I, both unsubbed.
One would of thought that after the failures of the other WoW clones, while TOR was in development, a shift in design might have been ordered in TOR, but nope, these developers just knew they were right and no1 was going to tell them any differently. (same as they acted, and still act, regarding the original NGE). I've seen the same types of developer mindsets over in TOR that the playerbase battled for most of the 8 years of SWG. But, after all, SOE Austin ( I call it the "blixtev mentality) trained these guys, what else would anyone expect?
However, the fundamental concept design was just as lacking as the original NGE. With all the WoW clones we've seen come and go, it never ceases to amaze me that developers still hold onto this concept. With all the other problems the OP notes out, this made for the perfect storm basicly in MMO failure and massive playerbase bleed that hasn't been seen before nor after as well. Rubenfield went on and on, in his blog, about a SWG 10K per month sub bleed (after CU, their 1st round of CHANGES). The amount of sub bleed in TOR would of probably gave him a heart attack.
Sad to think, that if the current player estimates of TOR subs are correct, (even seen on these boards), that SWG was larger in playerbase, before CU/NGE, than TOR is today, much less the last massive CHANGE that pretty much killed SWG, C6CD. From what I can see, the sub bleed in TOR still continues and it is pretty interesting to watch where this all will end up at.
Very nice - and very true - addition to the main argument. You *are* right. SWTOR *is* the NGE SWG the way SOE developers wanted it. After all, think how many ex-SOE and LA personalities actually worked on this project:
Gordon Walton
Rich Vogel
Julio Torres
Haydon Blackman
Gabe Amatangelo
Dallas Dickinson etc etc
I am sure there are plenty of others but these are senior developers, producers etc.
As in the last statement I made above, it will certainly be interesting as to where this all goes. Expecialy with EA's statement of requireing 500K subs to even hit the break even mark. Without knowing for certain, it certainly appears that TOR could be below that mark at the moment. On the TOR forums there is a lady who has wrote a program and is trying to keep track of "concurent logins" and while she readily admits that this does not equate to subscriptions, you can kinda get a vague idea. The last numbers I seen was around 36K for the 26 servers (lol, SWG had 26 servers as well, all the way past C6CD in fact) that every1 transfered to. SWG top end was 300K, announced by SOE before the CHANGES, when those numbers were thought of as good for a MMO. But that amounted to a little over 11,500 per/server for SWG. According to the "full" numbers for TOR, it sure seems to be around 4000 for Q status. Even in the last week, I have watched the server status label amounts go down, some to "very heavy", some to "heavy", and even a few of these remaining 26 to "standard" during prime time.
It would be interesting to be a fly upon the wall at BioWare now. They have, I'd imagine, a rather LARGE IP payment that has to be made, same as SOE had with SWG, that is called out as the full reasoning for the SWG closure. SOE chose rather than to be roped into this again to give up the ghost, take their toys, and go home. The large question is here, is what will BioWare, and even moreso EA, do in this context?
The next big 64 dollar question is; What will BioWare Austin do to try and "save their game" before EA/LA makes that decision and sends these devs packing like the rumored 150-200 BioWare devs/employees of late? These same devs brought you the CU and NGE back in SWG in 2005, will they attempt it yet again? Is it now their MO and expected? How much of TOR will be redesigned on this existing playerbase? Will the opposite of the original NGE take place? Will existing jedi players log in to find a re-profession screen because the patch that gets pushed out takes jedi to an unlocked alpha? (for all those that think this could never happen, it is the exact same developers that CHANGED it the other way around in SWG and in the process hit the delete key on 23 different classes/profs) Just how far will they go this time around? We already know if they're in crises management mode, they'll CHANGE a game to whatever they deem, da&# the topedoes - full speed ahead, the major malfuction here is..........,will they do it all over again? Will it work any better this time around? (Cryptic tried it with their F2P for STO, history repeated itself there as well) OR/AND........, will EA and LA just pull the plug again?
The entire ordeal leaves a bad taste in my mouth, to be honest. SOE with their CU/NGE/C6CD, BioWare with their "perfect NGE" could very well take the IP down with them or at least make it so NO other large studio will even try to take on the responsibility of the Star Wars IP again, ever. As a almost 8 year former player of SWG, I would lament that happening.
Comments
Wanted to put my 2 cents in:
- game to easy (my cat was playing seer sage). I reached lvl 50 on my first char without even seeing half of the planets.
- devs didnt have any idea what roles they want classes to performe, and they still tying to figure it out.
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WoW persists because it is popular, it isn't popular becaue it persists. People play WoW because it has alot of people to play with, their friends play it, their families and because many of them don't know much about MMOs outside of WoW. GW2 might be a big hit in the MMO world, but it doesn't reach the console crowd or the non-internet folks (people that think of the internet as email and WoW). Without mass media (TV, Radio, Billboards) exposure, and lots of it, no game will approach WoW numbers. With the millions thrown into development, few games spend the millions more needed to get advertise. GW2 definately won't, they don't even invest in a decent web developer. Their website is one of the worst MMO websites I've seen. You have to hunt for information, the forums are hidden and disabled, and the launch date isn't even on it (was only on arena.net when I checked). This isn't acceptable in today's market. When Blizzard launched Diablo 3 they had a build up website, adds all over, and plastered the launch date everywhere. The also let everyone that wanted to try it do so before launch. Like D3 or not, pre-order or hate it, you probably knew it was coming.
Swtors main flaw was it was just yet another wow clone/wananbe, cept more singleplayer than most mmo's should be. Game got boring really fast due to lack of endgame, and poor combat, graphics also looked dated due to how long it was in devolopment. In all the game just to be frank sucked, because it didn't do anything unique at all or really even attempt to.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Summary of what went wrong? They didn't take any risks. It's that simple, really.
Excellent post. I was always saying that the game launched a year early until i actually thought about it for a sec. The core of the game is fundamentally flawed as it disconnects you from the game world in almost every aspect.
It's my belief that BW assumed that the future was some blend of co-op/lobby MMO with a monthly fee. I'm sure they looked at WoW and saw everyone just standing around in town waiting on queues to pop and thought "hey we can charge $15 a month for this!"
You can't go straight to that, nor should you ever in my opinion, without a living and breathing world to explore first.
OP followed the game for 8 years and then played it for 8 weeks.
Sorry to break this to you, but EA has nothing to do with ESO.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Not a WoW clone - not an mmo! It has copied the monthly pricing model though.
Unfinished, less content, huge mistakes and more expensive than many = fail. Doubt it will get a second chance either.
Pretty much match what the devs themselves said how they screwed the development of the game:
Mostly: clueless management team that doesn't know how to deliver project of such scope.
What I honestly don't get is why the leads and especially the producer is still on his throne.
Haven't been here very long, have you?
rofl, i take it youve played it through? no? then how would you know how much content it has? and no shit its not finished, its not out.
keep making up reasons to hate on it though.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Very good read, OP.
However, I believe you missed one large point of just exactly why TOR tanked and, to be honest, I doubt if anyone would have picked it up unless you were a long term player of SWG.
BioWare, after LA went to them in Dec 05 (after SOE's Nov 15th NGE debackle), then went directly over to SOE's studio and hired a large amount of SOE's NGE devs. They took on so many of these guys, instead of moving them all up to their existing studio, they created a new studio in Austin TX, where SOE's studio is. These guys thought they already had a "winning plan" and that "marketing" just screwed up the NGE so bad that the entire CHANGE tanked in SWG. (see Rubenfields' blog, in it he says "it wasn't the CHANGES themselves" but it was all marketing's fault). So, armed with this "tried and true version" of making an MMO (basicly a WoW clone), they went off in that direction, again, to make the "perfect NGE", this time with marketing full well on board. And BioWare's marketing did a great job. The pre-launch hype of TOR was something I haven't seen in any other game, before nor after. Marketing did their jobs well. 2.4 million boxes sold, rather incredible if you think about it. I admit that I fell for it as well. 2 $150.00 boxes here, sitting on the shelf collecting dust with the wife and I, both unsubbed.
One would of thought that after the failures of the other WoW clones, while TOR was in development, a shift in design might have been ordered in TOR, but nope, these developers just knew they were right and no1 was going to tell them any differently. (same as they acted, and still act, regarding the original NGE). I've seen the same types of developer mindsets over in TOR that the playerbase battled for most of the 8 years of SWG. But, after all, SOE Austin ( I call it the "blixtev mentality) trained these guys, what else would anyone expect?
However, the fundamental concept design was just as lacking as the original NGE. With all the WoW clones we've seen come and go, it never ceases to amaze me that developers still hold onto this concept. With all the other problems the OP notes out, this made for the perfect storm basicly in MMO failure and massive playerbase bleed that hasn't been seen before nor after as well. Rubenfield went on and on, in his blog, about a SWG 10K per month sub bleed (after CU, their 1st round of CHANGES). The amount of sub bleed in TOR would of probably gave him a heart attack.
Sad to think, that if the current player estimates of TOR subs are correct, (even seen on these boards), that SWG was larger in playerbase, before CU/NGE, than TOR is today, much less the last massive CHANGE that pretty much killed SWG, C6CD. From what I can see, the sub bleed in TOR still continues and it is pretty interesting to watch where this all will end up at.
Funny but always felt TOR was the NGE LA wanted.
I do blame LA as much as SOE for SWG failure but most people tend to forget LA was deeply involved in the NGE and we all know the proeminent people from NGE are (or were) working at BioWare.
Wow - I know it seems hard to believe but I've never seen that first article at all. It does go to prove that the problems with SWTOR lie in its shambolically directionless and disasterously expensive production process. Great find.
ADDITIONAL; It's no surprise to find that Dallas Dickinson, 'Head of Production' for SWTOR, was one of those responsible for delivering this mess to market. He was also one of the most incompetent, dishonest and destructibve producers behind the NGE SWG. He's like the Typhoid Mary of MMOs. How does he keep getting hired? Why isn't he fired?
Very nice - and very true - addition to the main argument. You *are* right. SWTOR *is* the NGE SWG the way SOE developers wanted it. After all, think how many ex-SOE and LA personalities actually worked on this project:
Gordon Walton
Rich Vogel
Julio Torres
Haydon Blackman
Gabe Amatangelo
Dallas Dickinson etc etc
I am sure there are plenty of others but these are senior developers, producers etc.
People expected from Bioware something more then "same old shit" MMO with shitty graphics
As in the last statement I made above, it will certainly be interesting as to where this all goes. Expecialy with EA's statement of requireing 500K subs to even hit the break even mark. Without knowing for certain, it certainly appears that TOR could be below that mark at the moment. On the TOR forums there is a lady who has wrote a program and is trying to keep track of "concurent logins" and while she readily admits that this does not equate to subscriptions, you can kinda get a vague idea. The last numbers I seen was around 36K for the 26 servers (lol, SWG had 26 servers as well, all the way past C6CD in fact) that every1 transfered to. SWG top end was 300K, announced by SOE before the CHANGES, when those numbers were thought of as good for a MMO. But that amounted to a little over 11,500 per/server for SWG. According to the "full" numbers for TOR, it sure seems to be around 4000 for Q status. Even in the last week, I have watched the server status label amounts go down, some to "very heavy", some to "heavy", and even a few of these remaining 26 to "standard" during prime time.
It would be interesting to be a fly upon the wall at BioWare now. They have, I'd imagine, a rather LARGE IP payment that has to be made, same as SOE had with SWG, that is called out as the full reasoning for the SWG closure. SOE chose rather than to be roped into this again to give up the ghost, take their toys, and go home. The large question is here, is what will BioWare, and even moreso EA, do in this context?
The next big 64 dollar question is; What will BioWare Austin do to try and "save their game" before EA/LA makes that decision and sends these devs packing like the rumored 150-200 BioWare devs/employees of late? These same devs brought you the CU and NGE back in SWG in 2005, will they attempt it yet again? Is it now their MO and expected? How much of TOR will be redesigned on this existing playerbase? Will the opposite of the original NGE take place? Will existing jedi players log in to find a re-profession screen because the patch that gets pushed out takes jedi to an unlocked alpha? (for all those that think this could never happen, it is the exact same developers that CHANGED it the other way around in SWG and in the process hit the delete key on 23 different classes/profs) Just how far will they go this time around? We already know if they're in crises management mode, they'll CHANGE a game to whatever they deem, da&# the topedoes - full speed ahead, the major malfuction here is..........,will they do it all over again? Will it work any better this time around? (Cryptic tried it with their F2P for STO, history repeated itself there as well) OR/AND........, will EA and LA just pull the plug again?
The entire ordeal leaves a bad taste in my mouth, to be honest. SOE with their CU/NGE/C6CD, BioWare with their "perfect NGE" could very well take the IP down with them or at least make it so NO other large studio will even try to take on the responsibility of the Star Wars IP again, ever. As a almost 8 year former player of SWG, I would lament that happening.