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Why do so many people think that Sandbox MMORPGs are all FFA PvP? They're not.

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  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,459
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Its because most, if not all, the notable sandbox titles have or have had it.

    The flip side of that is that it comprises 20% or less of the gameplay in the successful sandbox-style games that do have it.

    The failed games forgot to add safeguards and allowed PvP to take over the whole game, and what was supposed to be a sandbox becomes litle more than a glorified gank fest.

    The successful games, those you talk about, have mechanics which prevent this from happening, and therefore favor all types of playstyles.

    Respect, walk, what did you say?
    Respect, walk
    Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
    - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
    Yes, they are back !

  • VengerVenger Member UncommonPosts: 1,309
    When you have a single feature in a game that can roll over every other feature and drop a steamy loaf on top of it.  Then yes that feature becomes the central feature of a game.
     
    Sure games like UO were so much more then a game with ffa pvp but that feature is the one that got shoved down your throat.  You didn't have to fish, cook, black smith, mine ore, chop wood etc. etc. etc. because there were a lot of different things to do in UO.  But if someone(people) choose to attack you there was no declining the feature.
     
    Whether you agree or not ffa pvp is one of those dominating feature that takes over a game, no matter how many other features a game has.
  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,459
    Originally posted by Venger
    When you have a single feature in a game that can roll over every other feature and drop a steamy loaf on top of it.  Then yes that feature becomes the central feature of a game.
     
    Sure games like UO were so much more then a game with ffa pvp but that feature is the one that got shoved down your throat.  You didn't have to fish, cook, black smith, mine ore, chop wood etc. etc. etc. because there were a lot of different things to do in UO.  But if someone(people) choose to attack you there was no declining the feature.
     
    Whether you agree or not ffa pvp is one of those dominating feature that takes over a game, no matter how many other features a game has.

    It's obvious, since FFA PvP is the strongest kind of player interaction in a MMORPG. If you don't control it (and therefore limit the "FFA" part with rules), it WILL take over the game, it's inevitable.

    Respect, walk, what did you say?
    Respect, walk
    Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
    - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
    Yes, they are back !

  • FredomSekerZFredomSekerZ Member Posts: 1,156

    FFA IMO doesn't have anything to do with it. I never played SWG, but wasn't that game a sandbox with faction based pvp?

    Now, regarding open world pvp, or even the lack of any in the first place, well, that's mving into the "what makes a sandbox a sandbox" part of a discussion.

  • VowOfSilenceVowOfSilence Member UncommonPosts: 565

    A true sandbox is a world simulator more than a "game". A good world simulation includes the option to chop off somebody's head and take their stuff.

    Hype train -> Reality

  • fenistilfenistil Member Posts: 3,005

    Sandbox does not need full loot pvp.

    It does not need pvp at all actually.

     

    It does need item sink though to maintain healthy economy, thing that themepark does not need and does not have.

    Make item decay like in SWG and then you don't need any loot.

     

     

  • busdriverbusdriver Member Posts: 859

    Because the less artificial boundaries (on what you can do) a game has, the more sandboxy it gets.

    And how many themeparks do you know that have FFApvp? It's a sandbox game feature, simple as that.

  • SiveriaSiveria Member UncommonPosts: 1,419
    Originally posted by Larsa

    Since long I found it strange that so many people think that Sandbox MMORPGs are all about FFA PvP (and with full loot!).

    They're not. There are plenty of Sandbox MMORPGs around without PvP, or with only consensual PvP or with PvP only in certain parts of the game world or on certain servers. I'd even go as far as to say that your run-of-the-mill themepark game has probably more PvP than most sandboxes these days, can't remember the last themepark MMO that released without PvP, did we even have a single one?

    In another thread (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/355450/page/1#5094263) this discussion came up again and since it's rather off-topic in that thread I thought to make a new one to try to get an answer on a simple question:

    Why do so many people think that all Sandbox MMORPGs are FFA PvP gankfests?

    This is because pretty much all of the sandbox mmo's out currently ARE FFA gankfests. Also themepark mmo's don't have real pvp, real pvp is made from the start, with the game setup for it, not tacked on as a side feature later on like many of them do.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • HurvartHurvart Member Posts: 565

    Sandbox games should all have both PvE and PvP servers. Some people just want to craft and build things. And try to create a character that is unique and special. They dont want PvP.  But they like sandbox games.

    If someone like that plays a new SB game and its FFA PvP they will quit. If developers fail to understand that there will probably never be any really popular and successful SB MMO:s... A bit sad, IMO. Is it really that difficult to have PvP servers that gives the FFA PvP fans everything they want. But also have PvE servers for other players?

  • FredomSekerZFredomSekerZ Member Posts: 1,156
    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

    A true sandbox is a world simulator more than a "game". A good world simulation includes the option to chop off somebody's head and take their stuff.

    True, but in that case, a good simulator would also have

    - A justice and criminal system to put you in jail for years of forced game time (literall in-game years)

    - 1 character limit to the game, not the server or account, to avoid jail.

    - Permadeath

    So, are you hardcore enoug for this sandbox? image

  • FangrimFangrim Member UncommonPosts: 616

    Don't drop the soap in the showers!


    image

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts Member UncommonPosts: 1,555
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

    FFA IMO doesn't have anything to do with it. I never played SWG, but wasn't that game a sandbox with faction based pvp?

    Now, regarding open world pvp, or even the lack of any in the first place, well, that's mving into the "what makes a sandbox a sandbox" part of a discussion.

    It was a little more complicated than faction based pvp. It had a temporary enemy flag you could earn by healing a flagged PVP'r or attacking a Factional NPC  that would get you set to pvp even when you weren't actually looking for it. You did have to get involved with the Civil War to get attacked though so the pure PVE players never had to get involved if they didn't want to. It was really the perfect system for an open world sandbox game that catered to both playstyles, but still allowed the casual PVP'r ot hop in a battle that was going on in town.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • SlampigSlampig Member UncommonPosts: 2,342
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    I think it's because some people around here want a free for all, full loot PVP sandbox, but usually shorten that to simply saying that they want a sandbox.

    Don't Darkfall and Mortal Online fill those needs?

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts Member UncommonPosts: 1,555
    Originally posted by FredomSekerZ
    Originally posted by VowOfSilence

    A true sandbox is a world simulator more than a "game". A good world simulation includes the option to chop off somebody's head and take their stuff.

    True, but in that case, a good simulator would also have

    - A justice and criminal system to put you in jail for years of forced game time (literall in-game years)

    - 1 character limit to the game, not the server or account, to avoid jail.

    - Permadeath

    So, are you hardcore enoug for this sandbox? image

    -Which Countries court system? Some are quite corrupt and would have to include the option to bribe the authorities.

     

    -Perhaps you have never heard of identity theft?

     

    -Cloning, and other Religious myths would suggest that this is not always a reality.

     

    I played a sandbox already that had kidnapping and a legal system. never stopped me from being a space pirate. IF they had ever been able to hold me then I would still be rotting away in a cell, but luckily I am smarter than the average Fleet Officer.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    OP, the answer to your question lies in the fact that no one seems to agree what a sandbox is.

    I can almost guarantee you that those who think that a sandbox must have FFA-PvP think this way simply because their definition of sandbox requires FFA-PvP.  In other words, to them, if a game does not have FFA-PvP, then it is not a sandbox.

    Personally, I go by the Wikipedia definition of sandbox which includes games like UO, Elder Scrolls, and GTA, but there are plenty people who will disagree with me.  For some reaosn, everyone likes to have their own definition of sandbox, and no one wants to let it go for an already defined standard.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by Slampig
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    I think it's because some people around here want a free for all, full loot PVP sandbox, but usually shorten that to simply saying that they want a sandbox.

    Don't Darkfall and Mortal Online fill those needs?

     Darkfall and Mortal Online fill the need for an FFA-PvP sandbox as much as DaiKatana fulfilled the need for awesome first person shooter action.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    Originally posted by Larsa

    Since long I found it strange that so many people think that Sandbox MMORPGs are all about FFA PvP (and with full loot!).

    They're not. There are plenty of Sandbox MMORPGs around without PvP, or with only consensual PvP or with PvP only in certain parts of the game world or on certain servers. I'd even go as far as to say that your run-of-the-mill themepark game has probably more PvP than most sandboxes these days, can't remember the last themepark MMO that released without PvP, did we even have a single one?

    In another thread (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/355450/page/1#5094263) this discussion came up again and since it's rather off-topic in that thread I thought to make a new one to try to get an answer on a simple question:

    Why do so many people think that all Sandbox MMORPGs are FFA PvP gankfests?

     

    People translate everything according to their own experience, and their own experience is limited and ignorant I guess. All they probably know is Darkfall or MO.

    Which will in no way stop them telling you that you are wrong though. Repeatedly.

     

    I think there is an unhealthy section of the MMORPG population that can only interact in a game through friction and hostility... they cannot comprehend why others don't need this or how others get pleasure from building and co-operating.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by seridan

    One reason might be the posts from many of those who support sandbox games, on various themepark MMO forums, how they hate them because "they are not sandbox" and "not have open PVP". Thus people tend to put the two together...

    Open PvP isn't FFAPvP either, it just means WORLD PvP, it could be flagged ffs.

    Everyone pull out your MMO thesaurus, it's fucking pop-quiz time.

     

    lol good luck with that...

    Everyone seems to have their own definition on every word used around here. 2/3 of the threads are about what this means or what that means.

    Seperated by a common language indeed.

  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Member UncommonPosts: 2,341

    So many people think it because so many sandboxers want it. Nothing wrong with it, but that's not my bag and thus why when I hear "sandbox" I avoid the game entirely.

    If there was a sandbox with all the mechanics of one, minus the FFA PvP, I'd play it in a heartbeat. I would actually enjoy something where you can build, fight, grow, take part in politics, maybe even create literal in-game economies (I'm talking down to someone creating a service and hiring others to work for him). The whole shebang. But I'm not down to invest that much time into something if someone can come along just because they're having a bad day, zerging an area with friends and killing people/stealing their stuff/destroying everything just to let off steam. Some people like that, many don't, and that's why 'many' hear the term 'sandbox' and assume it's not for them.

    "Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  • CaldrinCaldrin Member UncommonPosts: 4,505

    FFA full loot pvp jsut goes really well with a sandbox MMO.. its also somthing i really enjoy.. I dont think i would enjoy a sandbox game quite as much without it..

  • HurvartHurvart Member Posts: 565
    Originally posted by Caldrin

    FFA full loot pvp jsut goes really well with a sandbox MMO.. its also somthing i really enjoy.. I dont think i would enjoy a sandbox game quite as much without it..

    But is it impossible for the game to have both PvP and PvE servers? If you play on a PvP server with FFA PvP why is it a problem if others are playing on PvE servers? People that would not play the game without the PvE servers...

    More players means the game will get better support and the company will be able to improve it more. More money for the company if PvE sandbox players are also playing.

  • KiljaedenasKiljaedenas Member Posts: 468

    As others have mentioned, people seem to think sandbox MMO means FFA full loot PvP because the current most successful ones (or one, really) has/have it. I personally enjoy Eve Online very much with its FFA full loot PvP, but there's a particular reason why full loot PvP/destruction of stuff is extremely important in Eve.

    One thing I'm pretty sure everyone can agree on that a sandbox MMO has/should have is the ability for players to build stuff. A LOT of stuff. Weapons, armor, bases, houses, flying robotic monkeys that you can ride like a mount, whatever. The best sandboxes have a living, breathing, fully player-run economy for pretty much everything in the game (like Eve) with the exception of the most basic, bare-bones equipment needed to at least start extracting resources (such as Eve's skillbooks, blueprint originals for tech 1 equipment and civilian mining lasers that are equipped on the only free ships you get).

    The problem is, players usually like to build a LOT of stuff. Without some way of that "stuff" getting removed, permanently, which doesn't include the player who built the stuff deciding to delete it on a whim as they often never do, the game world and markets get cluttered up with everyone's shit with no end in site. All of those created items are a value "faucet" (if you're familiar with Eve, think ISK faucet), or more particularly the resource nodes that you extracted to be able to build those items. Without a roughly equal value "sink", the overall game world value of items just keeps climbing at a stupid rate until you can't walk two feet without bumping into player number 4859122's workbench number 627. Player created content needs a way of being destroyed or at least have an upkeep cost that balances out how many of them you can afford to have, and if the upkeep is not paid it gets deleted.

    CCP has paid very detailed attention to the faucet vs sink balance in Eve, and FFA full loot PvP with a decent chunk of someone's stuff getting outright destroyed if they die is a very effective and important part of the sink. It's just a very effective system overall, which is why the good sandboxes have it, and to have a sandbox without FFA full loot PvP that won't have its economy explode into uselessness within a few months of launch you either have to have no player crafting at all (which most players would think absolutely sucks) or very, very detailed systems of making the player made content go poof over time. And I don't know of a single good sandbox without FFA PvP that has that.

    Where's the any key?

  • VidirVidir Member UncommonPosts: 963

    Sandbox mmo= you do what ever you want to do and dont do things you dont want to do, that should include pvp,if you dont want to pvp then you should not have to.

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