Originally posted by Creslin321 You just need to go to the other races' starting areas. And that is as easy as taking a portal from your main city.
A lot of people would prefer not to feel forced to visit another starting area to level up enough to handle the area following their own starting area. They would prefer to hit that race's area fresh with an alt.
Also, I suspect a lot of people are accustomed to devs putting their best foot forward with starting zones, and they think "if there's not enough content in the first zone to progress past it without repeating events, how little content will there be later on??"
I swear the problem is people aren't able to figure out how to activate DEs on their own.
Which is sad, they alraedy had to put in so much stuff like scouts to help people out, if they listen to the players who can't figure out how to level in the starting zone they'll have to make even the hidden events 100% self-evident.
Not oly that, but something tha tmiffed me is that they added an icon to "escort mission folk" so you can start an escort mission chain. LOL. They are tyring their best to breastfeed as many folk as possible but it still aint working. Where's the formula.
Leveling speed too slow? I was level 53 by the end of this beta...
At release it will be possible to hit the cap in a week if you were hellbent on hitting the cap. There is also absolutely no reason to do so in Guild Wars 2.
Now...I just don't get these complaints. If anyone has played the BWE, they should know that there is PLENTY of content to level you up on hearts alone if you want. You just need to go to the other races' starting areas. And that is as easy as taking a portal from your main city.
It seems like these posters basically just want to be completely led by the nose through their zone and their zone alone, and are not willing to even try to go anywhere else. Instead they would rather complain that there isn't enough stuff to do on the boards.
If you can't tell, this annoys me because I don't want ANET to react to their feedback and increase the leveling speed so that they can go right from Queensdale to Kessex Hills. What do you all think of this?
I balme the WoW linear threadmill for people that.
In my days we quested uphill, without shoes and in the snow and we liked it.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
made 2 new characters on friday played them both 9/10 hours each until completion of the starting map (human and char) and by the time they finished they were both lvl13 which is about right imo.
It seems like these posters basically just want to be completely led by the nose through their zone and their zone alone, and are not willing to even try to go anywhere else. Instead they would rather complain that there isn't enough stuff to do on the boards.
If you can't tell, this annoys me because I don't want ANET to react to their feedback and increase the leveling speed so that they can go right from Queensdale to Kessex Hills. What do you all think of this?
Honestly, some of my least favorite aspects of GW2 have been a direct result of complaints like this. For one, the heart quests were added specificly to lead these players by the hand, and spoon feed them events. Now what do we get? 'these spoon fed events aren't giving us enough exp to complete the game on!'.
Well, guess what: THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO! The heart quests were never meant to be the primary method of content for this game, and I hope to god Anet does not shift gears towards heart quests. They were basically supposed to be a medium, to ease players from the traditional WoW questing method into the more open-dynamic questing mechanic known as Dynamic Events. Instead, most of these players just assume Hearts are the dynamic events, and that there is nothing else this game has to offer. It's definitely a slippery slope, and I know Anet wants some of these players to buy their game. The problem is, they are so brainwashed into 1dimensional thought that it's going to be extremely difficult to open their minds to how the game works, without ruining the game.
Hell, just today I had a guy in /map chat complaining about this very issue. I responded: 'dude, there is more than enough content to lvl up on. Try changing things up a bit, explore, do different things, you'll be fine.' What did he say about it? 'oh ya, hot shot. How did you get to lvl 17.' To which I replied 'Hearts, dynamic events, crafting, gathering, exploring, personal story, WvW'. And at least a half dozen people replied saying the same thing, or just doing the '^ this guy' response.
Not to get all metaphysical here, but this is one of the aspects of human nature which can really screw things up. Here we are seeing a very strong example of people who have been complaining about a lack of innovation for years, only to turn around and ask to be given the exact same thing they've been playing for the passed decade. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
- I'm with you on this one Creslin. I think GW2 is shaping up to be a very good game, but I do not want to see them compromise their ideals to pander to players who just want to be spoon fed. Games, in general, have way too much of this. It's been like this for far too long. I really want to start seeing a return of games that are actually challenging, that require thought, that any idiot 3rd grader can't pick up and excel at.
It seems like these posters basically just want to be completely led by the nose through their zone and their zone alone, and are not willing to even try to go anywhere else. Instead they would rather complain that there isn't enough stuff to do on the boards.
If you can't tell, this annoys me because I don't want ANET to react to their feedback and increase the leveling speed so that they can go right from Queensdale to Kessex Hills. What do you all think of this?
Honestly, some of my least favorite aspects of GW2 have been a direct result of complaints like this. For one, the heart quests were added specificly to lead these players by the hand, and spoon feed them events. Now what do we get? 'these spoon fed events aren't giving us enough exp to complete the game on!'.
Well, guess what: THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO! The heart quests were never meant to be the primary method of content for this game, and I hope to god Anet does not shift gears towards heart quests. They were basically supposed to be a medium, to ease players from the traditional WoW questing method into the more open-dynamic questing mechanic known as Dynamic Events. Instead, most of these players just assume Hearts are the dynamic events, and that there is nothing else this game has to offer. It's definitely a slippery slope, and I know Anet wants some of these players to buy their game. The problem is, they are so brainwashed into 1dimensional thought that it's going to be extremely difficult to open their minds to how the game works, without ruining the game.
Hell, just today I had a guy in /map chat complaining about this very issue. I responded: 'dude, there is more than enough content to lvl up on. Try changing things up a bit, explore, do different things, you'll be fine.' What did he say about it? 'oh ya, hot shot. How did you get to lvl 17.' To which I replied 'Hearts, dynamic events, crafting, gathering, exploring, personal story, WvW'. And at least a half dozen people replied saying the same thing, or just doing the '^ this guy' response.
Not to get all metaphysical here, but this is one of the aspects of human nature which can really screw things up. Here we are seeing a very strong example of people who have been complaining about a lack of innovation for years, only to turn around and ask to be given the exact same thing they've been playing for the passed decade. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
- I'm with you on this one Creslin. I think GW2 is shaping up to be a very good game, but I do not want to see them compromise their ideals to pander to players who just want to be spoon fed. Games, in general, have way too much of this. It's been like this for far too long. I really want to start seeing a return of games that are actually challenging, that require thought, that any idiot 3rd grader can't pick up and excel at.
Unfortunately, it does not matter what you feel should be the case, but rather what Anet feels. Anet saw it necessary to cater to "n00bs" with the Renown Hearts, apparently not of the position that players should just 'figure it out.' However, it currently fails at bridging the gap and directing players to how the game is supposed to be played. The tutorial areas set up Renown Hearts as the "content." Your first quest showing it all in brilliant 3D color and everything, yellow circles pointing it out and a nifty voice over. No mention of talking to the townsfolk to see if there is anything you can do for them, no attention is drawn to the reality of exactly how DEs get triggered. It's an after thought, and the primary content should never be an after thought.
And then we get to a higher level area, and the Hearts thin out and there is still no explanation. You can explore for those skill points, POI and waypoints, but that little icon on the map lighting up does not indicate that you should talk to the NPC complaining about Ettins on the road in order to start an event.
A game with no manual is not necessarily a bad game. It's just a poorly explained one. Because players like you and me "get it" does not invalidate the fact that Anet wrote the player's manual poorly. It means you did research, however if Anet's target audience were only those that did the research, there would be no tutorial. It is the equivalent of writing a tutorial essay on the parts of a car, and then getting upset that your students can't drive.
The car is fine. The student is fine (in spite of your condscending disposition). The teaching needs work.
Honestly, some of my least favorite aspects of GW2 have been a direct result of complaints like this. For one, the heart quests were added specificly to lead these players by the hand, and spoon feed them events. Now what do we get? 'these spoon fed events aren't giving us enough exp to complete the game on!'.
Well, guess what: THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO! The heart quests were never meant to be the primary method of content for this game, and I hope to god Anet does not shift gears towards heart quests. They were basically supposed to be a medium, to ease players from the traditional WoW questing method into the more open-dynamic questing mechanic known as Dynamic Events. Instead, most of these players just assume Hearts are the dynamic events, and that there is nothing else this game has to offer. It's definitely a slippery slope, and I know Anet wants some of these players to buy their game. The problem is, they are so brainwashed into 1dimensional thought that it's going to be extremely difficult to open their minds to how the game works, without ruining the game.
Hell, just today I had a guy in /map chat complaining about this very issue. I responded: 'dude, there is more than enough content to lvl up on. Try changing things up a bit, explore, do different things, you'll be fine.' What did he say about it? 'oh ya, hot shot. How did you get to lvl 17.' To which I replied 'Hearts, dynamic events, crafting, gathering, exploring, personal story, WvW'. And at least a half dozen people replied saying the same thing, or just doing the '^ this guy' response.
Not to get all metaphysical here, but this is one of the aspects of human nature which can really screw things up. Here we are seeing a very strong example of people who have been complaining about a lack of innovation for years, only to turn around and ask to be given the exact same thing they've been playing for the passed decade. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
- I'm with you on this one Creslin. I think GW2 is shaping up to be a very good game, but I do not want to see them compromise their ideals to pander to players who just want to be spoon fed. Games, in general, have way too much of this. It's been like this for far too long. I really want to start seeing a return of games that are actually challenging, that require thought, that any idiot 3rd grader can't pick up and excel at.
Excellent post. They even added Scout NPCs to give hints about a region!
In WoW, back in time, I saw a guy standing right in front of the building with the big sign with the gold bags on it spam-shout asking, in broken English of course, where the Bank was in Stormwind. True story. Developers should not cater to such lobotimized idiots.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The car is fine. The student is fine (in spite of your condscending disposition). The teaching needs work.
I dunno. I think that if people didn't have standard mechanics beat into their head, and the hearts weren't so overwhelmingly linear that they're easy to latch onto, dynamic events might stand out better.
I'm not even sure how you'd make that a tutorial 'Uh, people will try to talk to you, they're not just... randomly making noises. Pretend they're real people! Also, hang around and watch the results of what you did, stop running so fast'.
I guess?
I think part of the problem is that these are actually things that SHOULD be self evident, but MMORPG players have been trained in such a weird way that they aren't.
Like, if a guy keeps yelling 'Hey! Come over here and talk to me!'... maybe you should go over and talk to him.
... and people ignore the results of what they did because generally in games it's MEANINGLESS. If it's important, they'd have an exclamation point.
I had a lot of fun sticking around and seeing what happens after events... which I'll admit I didn't do the first BWE that much! Caraemm's video was super educational and made me realize that slowing down (Instead of trying to rush) was its own reward. Not sure how to even make 'We're trying to not hold your hand, but react like these NPCs and events matter' a proper tutorial though. Maybe you should think of ways and suggest it on the forum!
The car is fine. The student is fine (in spite of your condscending disposition). The teaching needs work.
I dunno. I think that if people didn't have standard mechanics beat into their head, and the hearts weren't so overwhelmingly linear that they're easy to latch onto, dynamic events might stand out better.
I'm not even sure how you'd make that a tutorial 'Uh, people will try to talk to you, they're not just... randomly making noises. Pretend they're real people! Also, hang around and watch the results of what you did, stop running so fast'.
I guess?
I think part of the problem is that these are actually things that SHOULD be self evident, but MMORPG players have been trained in such a weird way that they aren't.
Like, if a guy keeps yelling 'Hey! Come over here and talk to me!'... maybe you should go over and talk to him.
... and people ignore the results of what they did because generally in games it's MEANINGLESS. If it's important, they'd have an exclamation point.
I had a lot of fun sticking around and seeing what happens after events... which I'll admit I didn't do the first BWE that much! Caraemm's video was super educational and made me realize that slowing down (Instead of trying to rush) was its own reward. Not sure how to even make 'We're trying to not hold your hand, but react like these NPCs and events matter' a proper tutorial though. Maybe you should think of ways and suggest it on the forum!
It would actually be quite simple. Take the human starting area. Centaurs are attacking Shaemoor. Currently, you start out standing on a road and in front of you is an NPC with a glowing green star above his head and your quest tells you to talk to him. Is this indicative of the game? With such a standardized start and "PQ" feel of the event, I am not at all surprised that it isn't "self evident."
What Anet probably should have done is start the whole thing with an event. You are standing on that road, and your event tracker pops up "Defend Shaemoor village from the centaurs!" much like it is at the garrison. The new players participate in this event, destroying centaur siege weapons, killing the bad guys and after a while, the DE shifts "Escort a villager to safety" with a little marker at the inn. Player escorts villager, event ends and they get their exp reward at the inn.
And then, here's the kicker, guards run up, yelling their heads off. They were reinforcements from Divinity's Reach and hopefully they aren't too late! And then the commander person takes charge, commenting aloud that others did their job for them and thanks the players. She also suggests that they can take their talents to the nearby garrison, where the centaurs had broken through in the first place. She doesn't want to pressure you, you've done so much already but if you agree to go, she'll send along a scout to help you get there and talk to the gate keepers so they'll let you in. No markers, just an (obvious) suggestion.
And upon arriving at the garrison, another event to drive back the centaur forces from the gates. And then there is a small lull in the action. The scout talks to the players. "Looks like the fighting has died down a bit. We appreciate your help but you should probably check in with someone in charge." Again, no markers.The guards are talking. Centaurs are getting bold, attacking human settlements all over, it's full blown war. Captain Thackery is overseeing the garrison, he's a hero.
And after that comment, one of the guards gets that little event orange snowflake marker on his head. He directs you to where Logan is. Mid conversation, that centaur chief attacks.
After the tutorial, get rid of the focus on the Hearts. "After the centaurs breached our defenses, we've been stuck with the mess. Many folks around here could use your help, cleaning up after an attack isn't something these good people are used to. And should never be, in my opinion. Sadly, I'm expecting bandits to take advantage of our weakened state. Don't be afraid to ask around and pitch in!"
And then as an after-thought "If you want to go above and beyond the call of duty, I certainly won't stop you. There are some everyday errands need doing and if you could nudge it along (shows Hearts) we'd be grateful."
Is the above example too much "hand holding" ? For all the comments on innovation, it is surprising how foreign "can be better" is.
EDIT: I have already suggested it, but at this late in game I am not being optimisitc about the chances of change. Perhaps in the future. Or perhaps it will be drowned out with "Go back to WoW!" comments and derogatory statements about the supposed intelligence level of players that didn't "get it."
The complaints are easy to explain even though I don't agree with them in the least. The complainers are simply playing the game wrong, stuck in the WoW mindset, thinking they can level all the way to 80 by simply doing hearts, going from one to the next, therefore atempting to force GW2 to be what it's not - a hub based game.
There are 3 starter zones at the moment, each zone should easily get you to around level 12 before encountering a level gap. But there are 2 more zones you can and should visit! Linear leveling curve means you could in theory reach level 30 in starting zones alone (1-17) without any grind whatsoever :P That's not including the 2 zones that will come in release.
The complainers forget unlike the old games, here you are level scaled, and are not forced to skip content/zones. I simply explored the game and had no issues with leveling. On top of that going to a zone below your level is awesome fun, you feel like an Epic Hero yet without being completely overpowered So glad there are no grey mobs anymore.
The car is fine. The student is fine (in spite of your condscending disposition). The teaching needs work.
I dunno. I think that if people didn't have standard mechanics beat into their head, and the hearts weren't so overwhelmingly linear that they're easy to latch onto, dynamic events might stand out better.
I'm not even sure how you'd make that a tutorial 'Uh, people will try to talk to you, they're not just... randomly making noises. Pretend they're real people! Also, hang around and watch the results of what you did, stop running so fast'.
I guess?
I think part of the problem is that these are actually things that SHOULD be self evident, but MMORPG players have been trained in such a weird way that they aren't.
Like, if a guy keeps yelling 'Hey! Come over here and talk to me!'... maybe you should go over and talk to him.
... and people ignore the results of what they did because generally in games it's MEANINGLESS. If it's important, they'd have an exclamation point.
I had a lot of fun sticking around and seeing what happens after events... which I'll admit I didn't do the first BWE that much! Caraemm's video was super educational and made me realize that slowing down (Instead of trying to rush) was its own reward. Not sure how to even make 'We're trying to not hold your hand, but react like these NPCs and events matter' a proper tutorial though. Maybe you should think of ways and suggest it on the forum!
it does need to be pointed out somehow, even in this thread, there is alot of people who like the leveling curve, but still seem to not know how GW2 function....I didnt know in the first event, and didnt play like it is supposed to be either, only because Im nerd enough, and saw another player pointing this out in a video he made for his beta experience, I know it ....only kept up on levels in the first weekend because of gathering, reviving and crafting....shouldnt be neccesary...for me no problem I like to do diffrent thing, but shouldnt be neccesary.
after that Ive tried my best to point it out in threads, with people complaining this game is as much of a quest grind as any other MMO, obvious still havent figured out how the game function, but just doing heart events and skill quests....then in this thread have people who say go to other starter area´s.....it shouldnt be neccesary.
and it shouldnt be neccesary to find out how to play the game by watching a fan video, when there is a tutorial....I dont know how it should be implemented, but need to be done something to the tutorial, not the leveling speed, it is fine as it is. and absolutely not cave into the complaints, and effectively make it a quest grind by doing so.
I have leveled my necro from lv12 to lv27 in this beta and concentrated in pve (only did a bit of spvp), i think it was a blast. But i understand the reaction from some people, especially from player that still are lv10-, because it's quiet different from usual mmos, people should give them more time with this game, they are many things that are different (yes its possible believe or not) and they should give them some time to adapt.
The game needs you to explore all the regions and not only your race region (see i changed my speech from last beta ), if you go higher level it will become obvious and smooth. The game is about wandering around looking for events/hearts, to try to understand what happen to the world. If you do that you should level pretty fast, and it should be a blast to play through this game.
I think a lot of people don't really understand the game, because they try to "grind", and they see they don't do it right, but can't point what is wrong so they blame the game rather than themselves. Like an other post here in this forum claiming the game is too repetitive then few page later the OP saying he will go back playing D3... Its pretty obvious some people try to grind, but the game was not designed to support that type of gameplay. You still can grind both "hearts" and mobs but its no more the most "efficient way". The most efficient way and the nicest is to see as much as you can see, participate in the stuff happening around, and try to take the time to understand what is happening. I can't even believe some people can have the guts to say its repetitive honestly when the game is at the opposite...
A lot of people seam to make a difference between heart and event, but i really looked closely on this, and i think people are just psychologically stuck here too (both way), it is as if they were so thirty about "something special", so they deny hearts because they are closer to "quests", but they are imo pretty much equally good, and very close to events mechanically, and you need fixed spot to make progression better and smoother. Hearts are very important because they let you access karma vendors, and you really have to to see what they sell
In any case hearts or events, they are not that different and not all zones have plenty of events, some have more than others, and it probably depend on the time you go through the zone (i found human to have very few events "too few?", charr to have most and is the nicest for this aspect, Norn is well balanced), but both hearts/events are pretty much equally fun to do, and they are really varied. So i think its really a nice pace of leveling and i don't want it to be too fast either so i liked it (i rushed and i probably won't at release).
completely agree. with a combination of pve and pvp it is easy to keep questing level and if you dont want to do pvp then all you ned to do is go to lions arch and go to one of the other starter zones when you completed yours
If someone is talking in general chat in a language you dont understand, chances are they're not talking to you. So chill out and stop bitching about it!
The problem stems from the fact that DE frequency is undertuned right now, most likely from all the feedback during BWE1 complaining that there were too many events/resetting too fast. I even made a thread about this in the Dynamic Event forum.
If you read carefully, it is easy to tell that people finding themselves underlevelled are levelling exclusively through DE's and Renown Hearts. Those (including myself) that participate in everything from WvW to crafting to exploration do not have any problems levelling.
This right here. I was playing this weekend with 2 of my friends and I out leveled them. How you ask? I spent time gathering and crafting. You get really good exp from gathering and it surprises me when people pass it up. When I told my friends this, they said they didn't want to bother with it, and then complained they were leveling slowly. Chopping a tree down or mining a node gives about 2x-3x the exp of a normal monster.
Don't forget to craft either. Each time you craft something you get exp for the skill and exp to level yourself.
Just play the game and explore the world. People need to focus less on hearts and zerging for DEs. Explore the world and enjoy it.
Now...I just don't get these complaints. If anyone has played the BWE, they should know that there is PLENTY of content to level you up on hearts alone if you want. You just need to go to the other races' starting areas. And that is as easy as taking a portal from your main city.
It seems like these posters basically just want to be completely led by the nose through their zone and their zone alone, and are not willing to even try to go anywhere else. Instead they would rather complain that there isn't enough stuff to do on the boards.
If you can't tell, this annoys me because I don't want ANET to react to their feedback and increase the leveling speed so that they can go right from Queensdale to Kessex Hills. What do you all think of this?
Well it did seem nerfed when I went through it again. I think at one point I was three levels behind the story quest at one and I had been running around doing everything. There's probably a reason for this though....
Should ANET increase the xp rates? Of course not, just buy a xp potion from the cash shop! *wink* *wink*
In any case hearts or events, they are not that different and not all zones have plenty of events, some have more than others, and it probably depend on the time you go through the zone (i found human to have very few events "too few?", charr to have most and is the nicest for this aspect, Norn is well balanced), but both hearts/events are pretty much equally fun to do, and they are really varied. So i think its really a nice pace of leveling and i don't want it to be too fast either so i liked it (i rushed and i probably won't at release).
I found it to be the opposite Charr had less events from my experience and humans more. Did not play Norn yet. Now this might simply be due to the fact that this BWE events seem to be much rarer compared to the first BWE.
First BWE I often found my self skipping events, because they would take me off my intended route. This BWE I couldn't afford to skip events due to how few I encountered naturally. Sure I kickstarted a few, but to be honest players should not have to do that to actually feel like they are happening.
Also due to the infrequency of events I had to back track more often to do events as I ran into level difference problems. Which led me to find levelling to be on the slow side. So for the moment I think somewhere between BWE1 and BWE2 is where event frequency should be.
It would actually be quite simple. Take the human starting area. Centaurs are attacking Shaemoor. Currently, you start out standing on a road and in front of you is an NPC with a glowing green star above his head and your quest tells you to talk to him. Is this indicative of the game? With such a standardized start and "PQ" feel of the event, I am not at all surprised that it isn't "self evident."
What Anet probably should have done is start the whole thing with an event. You are standing on that road, and your event tracker pops up "Defend Shaemoor village from the centaurs!" much like it is at the garrison. The new players participate in this event, destroying centaur siege weapons, killing the bad guys and after a while, the DE shifts "Escort a villager to safety" with a little marker at the inn. Player escorts villager, event ends and they get their exp reward at the inn.
And then, here's the kicker, guards run up, yelling their heads off. They were reinforcements from Divinity's Reach and hopefully they aren't too late! And then the commander person takes charge, commenting aloud that others did their job for them and thanks the players. She also suggests that they can take their talents to the nearby garrison, where the centaurs had broken through in the first place. She doesn't want to pressure you, you've done so much already but if you agree to go, she'll send along a scout to help you get there and talk to the gate keepers so they'll let you in. No markers, just an (obvious) suggestion.
And upon arriving at the garrison, another event to drive back the centaur forces from the gates. And then there is a small lull in the action. The scout talks to the players. "Looks like the fighting has died down a bit. We appreciate your help but you should probably check in with someone in charge." Again, no markers.The guards are talking. Centaurs are getting bold, attacking human settlements all over, it's full blown war. Captain Thackery is overseeing the garrison, he's a hero.
And after that comment, one of the guards gets that little event orange snowflake marker on his head. He directs you to where Logan is. Mid conversation, that centaur chief attacks.
After the tutorial, get rid of the focus on the Hearts. "After the centaurs breached our defenses, we've been stuck with the mess. Many folks around here could use your help, cleaning up after an attack isn't something these good people are used to. And should never be, in my opinion. Sadly, I'm expecting bandits to take advantage of our weakened state. Don't be afraid to ask around and pitch in!"
And then as an after-thought "If you want to go above and beyond the call of duty, I certainly won't stop you. There are some everyday errands need doing and if you could nudge it along (shows Hearts) we'd be grateful."
Is the above example too much "hand holding" ? For all the comments on innovation, it is surprising how foreign "can be better" is.
EDIT: I have already suggested it, but at this late in game I am not being optimisitc about the chances of change. Perhaps in the future. Or perhaps it will be drowned out with "Go back to WoW!" comments and derogatory statements about the supposed intelligence level of players that didn't "get it."
Except... here's the problem. The events, by their very nature, change over time. Setting the tutorial up that way would be amazing in the best of cases, and thuroughly confusing in the worste. The only way to deal w/ that would be to either have the player do the events alone (which is definitely an option, even though it doesn't promote player cooperation right away), or have the event broken up into parts that are always repeating (which is a lot less elegant, and also highlights the artificial nature of the events).
The initial build of GW2 just had NPCs running up to you saying the things you just mentioned. "Hey you! we're under attack, we could really use some help over here!" What did the bulk of the closed beta testers do? "uhm..wtf is this guy talking to me?" "that's nice, what do i do? Where's my quest marker?".
I agree that the current system could be better, and I don't think there are as many people who think the game is perfect as you do. However, there is also the very real catch 22 that Anet has gotten themselves into with this game. Even with event hearts (which was added after the initial closed beta feedback), players are still getting lost. Breaking the WoW mindset isn't as easy as you might think, and simple logic doesn't always work how you'd expect it to when dealing w/ a social game. Also keep in mind that the majority of RPGs over the passed 20 years (both single player and MMO) have been based around the shinniest object on the screen being the indication of how to play.
GW2's mechanics can't work like that, even though a large portion of the players want them to, expect them to. So, they are stuck either completely alienating that base, or having to meet them half-way. They chose the later. Personally, I wish they could sell the game w/ out having renown hearts at all. I don't like them at all, but there are enough event's to distract me from their repetative nature.
Also, part of what you touched on is the personal story. This is a key feature of the game, but in this lies another problem. These aren't dynamic, and can't be. You control them, and you alone. So where / when is the best time to introduce them. They could wait till after the tutorial, but there will always be that disconnect. You have an inherently linear (albeit branching) questing system piggy-backing on a dynamic one. They exist in the same world, but are polar opposites to one another. One offers you a clearer sense of story & purpose, the other offers your more varied content and a deeper sense of the environment around you.
Even games like Skyrim have this problem, where the world is constantly going between feeling completely open, and feeling completely guided, because you are always making a choice between a linear storyline, and exploration. Honestly, I think this is one of those cases which they are trying to marry such different mindsets, that there may not be a 'best' way to do it. No matter how you slice it, one of the pieces is always going to seem better than the others. I just hope they don't sacrifice the best parts of this game, in order to pander towards the lowest common denominator.
Now...I just don't get these complaints. If anyone has played the BWE, they should know that there is PLENTY of content to level you up on hearts alone if you want. You just need to go to the other races' starting areas. And that is as easy as taking a portal from your main city.
It seems like these posters basically just want to be completely led by the nose through their zone and their zone alone, and are not willing to even try to go anywhere else. Instead they would rather complain that there isn't enough stuff to do on the boards.
If you can't tell, this annoys me because I don't want ANET to react to their feedback and increase the leveling speed so that they can go right from Queensdale to Kessex Hills. What do you all think of this?
It's the other way around, those people wanted to get OUT, but realized the level scaling is a huge thing especially past 4 levels in difference. AND ACTUALLY GRIND OUT QUESTHUBS AKA HEARTS isn't the ting they wanted to do.
The apology route about the fact that you need to travel between starting zones and cherry pick your questhubs really does say it all. Blind fanboy responses like yours will hurt this game more.
The thruth is rather that DE's been scaled to rare this weekend and they would rather have more again like in the first BW. You know, these things that make GW2 expirience to what it is all about.
XP for killing stuff is extremly low, unless you want GW2 to be a quest grind game they need to do something about that. The increase of xp for killing monster is one of the things that needs adjustment, it is really a reasonable demand when DEs are that rare.
It's funny, you are actually not helping the GW2 idea with your response, the other way around. You actually want it to be a questgrind questhub game.
I was level 25 ish by the time I finished all three starting zones, and that was before I exhausted my crafting materials, which took me close to lvl 27 in about 10m
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
It's the other way around, those people wanted to get OUT, but realized the level scaling is a huge thing especially past 4 levels in difference. AND ACTUALLY GRIND OUT QUESTHUBS AKA HEARTS isn't the ting they wanted to do.
The apology route about the fact that you need to travel between starting zones and cherry pick your questhubs really does say it all. Blind fanboy responses like yours will hurt this game more.
The thruth is rather that DE's been scaled to rare this weekend and they would rather have more again like in the first BW. You know, these things that make GW2 expirience to what it is all about.
XP for killing stuff is extremly low, unless you want GW2 to be a quest grind game they need to do something about that. The increase of xp for killing monster is one of the things that needs adjustment, it is really a reasonable demand when DEs are that rare.
It's funny, you are actually not helping the GW2 idea with your response, the other way around. You actually want it to be a questgrind questhub game.
Nah, he was suggesting the solution for if somebody wanted to JUST level up on hearts.
... and honestly, if you're going to JUST do hearts and not explore, craft, or find DEs and start them, I'm perfectly happy with somebody HAVING to do multiple starting zones. Hearts aren't meant to be the end all and be all of content, and they'd either have to bloat their xp, add even MORE of them (Please god no), or some other simlarly unplatable solution.
So, if somebody JUST wants to do hearts... yeah, you can do it. You'll just have to do multiple starting zones.
My suggestion is to spread out a little though. Do some crafting, do some personal story, do some dynamic events, start up a few, explore around, do some WvW (Especially once they fix the xp/loot rates for that). Then you'll find yourself consistently overleveled. There's more than enough PvE content to level up just fine without repeating yourself, it's just if you lean too heavily on the heart crutch, you'll have to hit other starter zones.
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Not oly that, but something tha tmiffed me is that they added an icon to "escort mission folk" so you can start an escort mission chain. LOL. They are tyring their best to breastfeed as many folk as possible but it still aint working. Where's the formula.
LOL just crafting alone is to much xp.
~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~
Leveling speed too slow? I was level 53 by the end of this beta...
At release it will be possible to hit the cap in a week if you were hellbent on hitting the cap. There is also absolutely no reason to do so in Guild Wars 2.
I balme the WoW linear threadmill for people that.
In my days we quested uphill, without shoes and in the snow and we liked it.
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Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
LOL I was 10 when I logged in on Friday and when it ended I was 32, and that was all PVE playing.
WoW / SW:TOR players who never knew anything different.
I just hope ANet won't dumb down the game for that kind of people.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
made 2 new characters on friday played them both 9/10 hours each until completion of the starting map (human and char) and by the time they finished they were both lvl13 which is about right imo.
Honestly, some of my least favorite aspects of GW2 have been a direct result of complaints like this. For one, the heart quests were added specificly to lead these players by the hand, and spoon feed them events. Now what do we get? 'these spoon fed events aren't giving us enough exp to complete the game on!'.
Well, guess what: THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO! The heart quests were never meant to be the primary method of content for this game, and I hope to god Anet does not shift gears towards heart quests. They were basically supposed to be a medium, to ease players from the traditional WoW questing method into the more open-dynamic questing mechanic known as Dynamic Events. Instead, most of these players just assume Hearts are the dynamic events, and that there is nothing else this game has to offer. It's definitely a slippery slope, and I know Anet wants some of these players to buy their game. The problem is, they are so brainwashed into 1dimensional thought that it's going to be extremely difficult to open their minds to how the game works, without ruining the game.
Hell, just today I had a guy in /map chat complaining about this very issue. I responded: 'dude, there is more than enough content to lvl up on. Try changing things up a bit, explore, do different things, you'll be fine.' What did he say about it? 'oh ya, hot shot. How did you get to lvl 17.' To which I replied 'Hearts, dynamic events, crafting, gathering, exploring, personal story, WvW'. And at least a half dozen people replied saying the same thing, or just doing the '^ this guy' response.
Not to get all metaphysical here, but this is one of the aspects of human nature which can really screw things up. Here we are seeing a very strong example of people who have been complaining about a lack of innovation for years, only to turn around and ask to be given the exact same thing they've been playing for the passed decade. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
- I'm with you on this one Creslin. I think GW2 is shaping up to be a very good game, but I do not want to see them compromise their ideals to pander to players who just want to be spoon fed. Games, in general, have way too much of this. It's been like this for far too long. I really want to start seeing a return of games that are actually challenging, that require thought, that any idiot 3rd grader can't pick up and excel at.
Unfortunately, it does not matter what you feel should be the case, but rather what Anet feels. Anet saw it necessary to cater to "n00bs" with the Renown Hearts, apparently not of the position that players should just 'figure it out.' However, it currently fails at bridging the gap and directing players to how the game is supposed to be played. The tutorial areas set up Renown Hearts as the "content." Your first quest showing it all in brilliant 3D color and everything, yellow circles pointing it out and a nifty voice over. No mention of talking to the townsfolk to see if there is anything you can do for them, no attention is drawn to the reality of exactly how DEs get triggered. It's an after thought, and the primary content should never be an after thought.
And then we get to a higher level area, and the Hearts thin out and there is still no explanation. You can explore for those skill points, POI and waypoints, but that little icon on the map lighting up does not indicate that you should talk to the NPC complaining about Ettins on the road in order to start an event.
A game with no manual is not necessarily a bad game. It's just a poorly explained one. Because players like you and me "get it" does not invalidate the fact that Anet wrote the player's manual poorly. It means you did research, however if Anet's target audience were only those that did the research, there would be no tutorial. It is the equivalent of writing a tutorial essay on the parts of a car, and then getting upset that your students can't drive.
The car is fine. The student is fine (in spite of your condscending disposition). The teaching needs work.
Excellent post. They even added Scout NPCs to give hints about a region!
In WoW, back in time, I saw a guy standing right in front of the building with the big sign with the gold bags on it spam-shout asking, in broken English of course, where the Bank was in Stormwind. True story. Developers should not cater to such lobotimized idiots.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I dunno. I think that if people didn't have standard mechanics beat into their head, and the hearts weren't so overwhelmingly linear that they're easy to latch onto, dynamic events might stand out better.
I'm not even sure how you'd make that a tutorial 'Uh, people will try to talk to you, they're not just... randomly making noises. Pretend they're real people! Also, hang around and watch the results of what you did, stop running so fast'.
I guess?
I think part of the problem is that these are actually things that SHOULD be self evident, but MMORPG players have been trained in such a weird way that they aren't.
Like, if a guy keeps yelling 'Hey! Come over here and talk to me!'... maybe you should go over and talk to him.
... and people ignore the results of what they did because generally in games it's MEANINGLESS. If it's important, they'd have an exclamation point.
I had a lot of fun sticking around and seeing what happens after events... which I'll admit I didn't do the first BWE that much! Caraemm's video was super educational and made me realize that slowing down (Instead of trying to rush) was its own reward. Not sure how to even make 'We're trying to not hold your hand, but react like these NPCs and events matter' a proper tutorial though. Maybe you should think of ways and suggest it on the forum!
It would actually be quite simple. Take the human starting area. Centaurs are attacking Shaemoor. Currently, you start out standing on a road and in front of you is an NPC with a glowing green star above his head and your quest tells you to talk to him. Is this indicative of the game? With such a standardized start and "PQ" feel of the event, I am not at all surprised that it isn't "self evident."
What Anet probably should have done is start the whole thing with an event. You are standing on that road, and your event tracker pops up "Defend Shaemoor village from the centaurs!" much like it is at the garrison. The new players participate in this event, destroying centaur siege weapons, killing the bad guys and after a while, the DE shifts "Escort a villager to safety" with a little marker at the inn. Player escorts villager, event ends and they get their exp reward at the inn.
And then, here's the kicker, guards run up, yelling their heads off. They were reinforcements from Divinity's Reach and hopefully they aren't too late! And then the commander person takes charge, commenting aloud that others did their job for them and thanks the players. She also suggests that they can take their talents to the nearby garrison, where the centaurs had broken through in the first place. She doesn't want to pressure you, you've done so much already but if you agree to go, she'll send along a scout to help you get there and talk to the gate keepers so they'll let you in. No markers, just an (obvious) suggestion.
And upon arriving at the garrison, another event to drive back the centaur forces from the gates. And then there is a small lull in the action. The scout talks to the players. "Looks like the fighting has died down a bit. We appreciate your help but you should probably check in with someone in charge." Again, no markers.The guards are talking. Centaurs are getting bold, attacking human settlements all over, it's full blown war. Captain Thackery is overseeing the garrison, he's a hero.
And after that comment, one of the guards gets that little event orange snowflake marker on his head. He directs you to where Logan is. Mid conversation, that centaur chief attacks.
After the tutorial, get rid of the focus on the Hearts. "After the centaurs breached our defenses, we've been stuck with the mess. Many folks around here could use your help, cleaning up after an attack isn't something these good people are used to. And should never be, in my opinion. Sadly, I'm expecting bandits to take advantage of our weakened state. Don't be afraid to ask around and pitch in!"
And then as an after-thought "If you want to go above and beyond the call of duty, I certainly won't stop you. There are some everyday errands need doing and if you could nudge it along (shows Hearts) we'd be grateful."
Is the above example too much "hand holding" ? For all the comments on innovation, it is surprising how foreign "can be better" is.
EDIT: I have already suggested it, but at this late in game I am not being optimisitc about the chances of change. Perhaps in the future. Or perhaps it will be drowned out with "Go back to WoW!" comments and derogatory statements about the supposed intelligence level of players that didn't "get it."
The complaints are easy to explain even though I don't agree with them in the least. The complainers are simply playing the game wrong, stuck in the WoW mindset, thinking they can level all the way to 80 by simply doing hearts, going from one to the next, therefore atempting to force GW2 to be what it's not - a hub based game.
There are 3 starter zones at the moment, each zone should easily get you to around level 12 before encountering a level gap. But there are 2 more zones you can and should visit! Linear leveling curve means you could in theory reach level 30 in starting zones alone (1-17) without any grind whatsoever :P That's not including the 2 zones that will come in release.
The complainers forget unlike the old games, here you are level scaled, and are not forced to skip content/zones. I simply explored the game and had no issues with leveling. On top of that going to a zone below your level is awesome fun, you feel like an Epic Hero yet without being completely overpowered
So glad there are no grey mobs anymore.
My Guild Wars 2 First Beta Weekend "reviewette" : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4944570/thread/349125#4944570
it does need to be pointed out somehow, even in this thread, there is alot of people who like the leveling curve, but still seem to not know how GW2 function....I didnt know in the first event, and didnt play like it is supposed to be either, only because Im nerd enough, and saw another player pointing this out in a video he made for his beta experience, I know it ....only kept up on levels in the first weekend because of gathering, reviving and crafting....shouldnt be neccesary...for me no problem I like to do diffrent thing, but shouldnt be neccesary.
after that Ive tried my best to point it out in threads, with people complaining this game is as much of a quest grind as any other MMO, obvious still havent figured out how the game function, but just doing heart events and skill quests....then in this thread have people who say go to other starter area´s.....it shouldnt be neccesary.
and it shouldnt be neccesary to find out how to play the game by watching a fan video, when there is a tutorial....I dont know how it should be implemented, but need to be done something to the tutorial, not the leveling speed, it is fine as it is. and absolutely not cave into the complaints, and effectively make it a quest grind by doing so.
I have leveled my necro from lv12 to lv27 in this beta and concentrated in pve (only did a bit of spvp), i think it was a blast. But i understand the reaction from some people, especially from player that still are lv10-, because it's quiet different from usual mmos, people should give them more time with this game, they are many things that are different (yes its possible believe or not) and they should give them some time to adapt.
The game needs you to explore all the regions and not only your race region (see i changed my speech from last beta
), if you go higher level it will become obvious and smooth. The game is about wandering around looking for events/hearts, to try to understand what happen to the world. If you do that you should level pretty fast, and it should be a blast to play through this game.
I think a lot of people don't really understand the game, because they try to "grind", and they see they don't do it right, but can't point what is wrong so they blame the game rather than themselves. Like an other post here in this forum claiming the game is too repetitive then few page later the OP saying he will go back playing D3... Its pretty obvious some people try to grind, but the game was not designed to support that type of gameplay. You still can grind both "hearts" and mobs but its no more the most "efficient way". The most efficient way and the nicest is to see as much as you can see, participate in the stuff happening around, and try to take the time to understand what is happening. I can't even believe some people can have the guts to say its repetitive honestly when the game is at the opposite...
A lot of people seam to make a difference between heart and event, but i really looked closely on this, and i think people are just psychologically stuck here too (both way), it is as if they were so thirty about "something special", so they deny hearts because they are closer to "quests", but they are imo pretty much equally good, and very close to events mechanically, and you need fixed spot to make progression better and smoother. Hearts are very important because they let you access karma vendors, and you really have to to see what they sell
In any case hearts or events, they are not that different and not all zones have plenty of events, some have more than others, and it probably depend on the time you go through the zone (i found human to have very few events "too few?", charr to have most and is the nicest for this aspect, Norn is well balanced), but both hearts/events are pretty much equally fun to do, and they are really varied. So i think its really a nice pace of leveling and i don't want it to be too fast either so i liked it (i rushed and i probably won't at release).
completely agree. with a combination of pve and pvp it is easy to keep questing level and if you dont want to do pvp then all you ned to do is go to lions arch and go to one of the other starter zones when you completed yours
If someone is talking in general chat in a language you dont understand, chances are they're not talking to you. So chill out and stop bitching about it!
This right here. I was playing this weekend with 2 of my friends and I out leveled them. How you ask? I spent time gathering and crafting. You get really good exp from gathering and it surprises me when people pass it up. When I told my friends this, they said they didn't want to bother with it, and then complained they were leveling slowly. Chopping a tree down or mining a node gives about 2x-3x the exp of a normal monster.
Don't forget to craft either. Each time you craft something you get exp for the skill and exp to level yourself.
Just play the game and explore the world. People need to focus less on hearts and zerging for DEs. Explore the world and enjoy it.
Well it did seem nerfed when I went through it again. I think at one point I was three levels behind the story quest at one and I had been running around doing everything. There's probably a reason for this though....
Should ANET increase the xp rates? Of course not, just buy a xp potion from the cash shop! *wink* *wink*
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!
I found it to be the opposite Charr had less events from my experience and humans more. Did not play Norn yet. Now this might simply be due to the fact that this BWE events seem to be much rarer compared to the first BWE.
First BWE I often found my self skipping events, because they would take me off my intended route. This BWE I couldn't afford to skip events due to how few I encountered naturally. Sure I kickstarted a few, but to be honest players should not have to do that to actually feel like they are happening.
Also due to the infrequency of events I had to back track more often to do events as I ran into level difference problems. Which led me to find levelling to be on the slow side. So for the moment I think somewhere between BWE1 and BWE2 is where event frequency should be.
Does this game have multiple starting areas?
It has 5.
Except... here's the problem. The events, by their very nature, change over time. Setting the tutorial up that way would be amazing in the best of cases, and thuroughly confusing in the worste. The only way to deal w/ that would be to either have the player do the events alone (which is definitely an option, even though it doesn't promote player cooperation right away), or have the event broken up into parts that are always repeating (which is a lot less elegant, and also highlights the artificial nature of the events).
The initial build of GW2 just had NPCs running up to you saying the things you just mentioned. "Hey you! we're under attack, we could really use some help over here!" What did the bulk of the closed beta testers do? "uhm..wtf is this guy talking to me?" "that's nice, what do i do? Where's my quest marker?".
I agree that the current system could be better, and I don't think there are as many people who think the game is perfect as you do. However, there is also the very real catch 22 that Anet has gotten themselves into with this game. Even with event hearts (which was added after the initial closed beta feedback), players are still getting lost. Breaking the WoW mindset isn't as easy as you might think, and simple logic doesn't always work how you'd expect it to when dealing w/ a social game. Also keep in mind that the majority of RPGs over the passed 20 years (both single player and MMO) have been based around the shinniest object on the screen being the indication of how to play.
GW2's mechanics can't work like that, even though a large portion of the players want them to, expect them to. So, they are stuck either completely alienating that base, or having to meet them half-way. They chose the later. Personally, I wish they could sell the game w/ out having renown hearts at all. I don't like them at all, but there are enough event's to distract me from their repetative nature.
Also, part of what you touched on is the personal story. This is a key feature of the game, but in this lies another problem. These aren't dynamic, and can't be. You control them, and you alone. So where / when is the best time to introduce them. They could wait till after the tutorial, but there will always be that disconnect. You have an inherently linear (albeit branching) questing system piggy-backing on a dynamic one. They exist in the same world, but are polar opposites to one another. One offers you a clearer sense of story & purpose, the other offers your more varied content and a deeper sense of the environment around you.
Even games like Skyrim have this problem, where the world is constantly going between feeling completely open, and feeling completely guided, because you are always making a choice between a linear storyline, and exploration. Honestly, I think this is one of those cases which they are trying to marry such different mindsets, that there may not be a 'best' way to do it. No matter how you slice it, one of the pieces is always going to seem better than the others. I just hope they don't sacrifice the best parts of this game, in order to pander towards the lowest common denominator.
It's the other way around, those people wanted to get OUT, but realized the level scaling is a huge thing especially past 4 levels in difference. AND ACTUALLY GRIND OUT QUESTHUBS AKA HEARTS isn't the ting they wanted to do.
The apology route about the fact that you need to travel between starting zones and cherry pick your questhubs really does say it all. Blind fanboy responses like yours will hurt this game more.
The thruth is rather that DE's been scaled to rare this weekend and they would rather have more again like in the first BW. You know, these things that make GW2 expirience to what it is all about.
XP for killing stuff is extremly low, unless you want GW2 to be a quest grind game they need to do something about that. The increase of xp for killing monster is one of the things that needs adjustment, it is really a reasonable demand when DEs are that rare.
It's funny, you are actually not helping the GW2 idea with your response, the other way around. You actually want it to be a questgrind questhub game.
I was level 25 ish by the time I finished all three starting zones, and that was before I exhausted my crafting materials, which took me close to lvl 27 in about 10m
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
Nah, he was suggesting the solution for if somebody wanted to JUST level up on hearts.
... and honestly, if you're going to JUST do hearts and not explore, craft, or find DEs and start them, I'm perfectly happy with somebody HAVING to do multiple starting zones. Hearts aren't meant to be the end all and be all of content, and they'd either have to bloat their xp, add even MORE of them (Please god no), or some other simlarly unplatable solution.
So, if somebody JUST wants to do hearts... yeah, you can do it. You'll just have to do multiple starting zones.
My suggestion is to spread out a little though. Do some crafting, do some personal story, do some dynamic events, start up a few, explore around, do some WvW (Especially once they fix the xp/loot rates for that). Then you'll find yourself consistently overleveled. There's more than enough PvE content to level up just fine without repeating yourself, it's just if you lean too heavily on the heart crutch, you'll have to hit other starter zones.