He doesn't realize that they aren't actually promising a game, they are funding a pitch. Essentially what they are promising is to create is a pencil-and-paper module with some added artwork that would then be pitched to investors (along with the list of doners as evidence of demand) to turn into an MMO. Being able to show that you beat your goal several times over should play well in a pitch.
Personally, I feel like they are putting the cart before the horse. If you want to actually make something new, I want to see a focus on the actual game engine - not lore, not even the graphics/physics part of it, but the core world mechanics and databases that are going to make this world different from other static world out there. I would like to see a kickstarter project to succeed and I have a lot of respect for pathfinder as a pencil-and-paper game, but the more I examine this inkblot to understand what they actually have in mind, the more I see this particular game idea is a checklist of things I *don't* want to see in a new game: cash-shop driven buisness model, openly hostile to non-PvP players, static content.
They've already reached their goals, so this project has definitely got traction. Perhaps they will succeed in building a better Darkfall. But I can't say I get a warm-and-fuzzy feeling off of it.
He doesn't realize that they aren't actually promising a game, they are funding a pitch. Essentially what they are promising is to create is a pencil-and-paper module with some added artwork that would then be pitched to investors (along with the list of doners as evidence of demand) to turn into an MMO. Being able to show that you beat your goal several times over should play well in a pitch.
Personally, I feel like they are putting the cart before the horse. If you want to actually make something new, I want to see a focus on the actual game engine - not lore, not even the graphics/physics part of it, but the core world mechanics and databases that are going to make this world different from other static world out there. I would like to see a kickstarter project to succeed and I have a lot of respect for pathfinder as a pencil-and-paper game, but the more I examine this inkblot to understand what they actually have in mind, the more I see this particular game idea is a checklist of things I *don't* want to see in a new game: cash-shop driven buisness model, openly hostile to non-PvP players, static content.
They've already reached their goals, so this project has definitely got traction. Perhaps they will succeed in building a better Darkfall. But I can't say I get a warm-and-fuzzy feeling off of it.
I really want to support this project, but I just don't think it has legs. My dad taught me an awesome lesson when i was little. You really do get what you pay for in this world. Words like sandbox (so we don't have t o design much), middlewear (someone else's failed product) and PVP (never had a pathfinder game that focused on players attacking other players) I just think it's going to flail out. I'd rather just buy the PDF when it comes out. It's ambitious, and admirable, but if you don't have the money to do something you just don't do it until you do, else you come out with a halfass version of your original idea.
( for the record, despite all my criticism above, I still decided to skip a hamburger and pledge the savings - I may be six dimensions of skeptical, but as a fan of game design, I want to be a patron of the art and give them the chance to prove me wrong )
He doesn't realize that they aren't actually promising a game, they are funding a pitch. Essentially what they are promising is to create is a pencil-and-paper module with some added artwork that would then be pitched to investors (along with the list of doners as evidence of demand) to turn into an MMO. Being able to show that you beat your goal several times over should play well in a pitch.
Personally, I feel like they are putting the cart before the horse. If you want to actually make something new, I want to see a focus on the actual game engine - not lore, not even the graphics/physics part of it, but the core world mechanics and databases that are going to make this world different from other static world out there. I would like to see a kickstarter project to succeed and I have a lot of respect for pathfinder as a pencil-and-paper game, but the more I examine this inkblot to understand what they actually have in mind, the more I see this particular game idea is a checklist of things I *don't* want to see in a new game: cash-shop driven buisness model, openly hostile to non-PvP players, static content.
They've already reached their goals, so this project has definitely got traction. Perhaps they will succeed in building a better Darkfall. But I can't say I get a warm-and-fuzzy feeling off of it.
I'm keen to see what the engine is like also, what middleware allows them to do and what limits it places also. I think they've got a good artist on board (check?) Wayne Renolds and looking at some samples of that work it is fine, but yes the engine/tech is really crucial.
That said, if you read the blogs the design to manage the game and number of persistent players seems like it could work eg the hex system. Also I disagree with the label of non-pvp players getting "shafted". It's bad implementation of other pvp systems in other mmorpgs that ruins those. GW are well aware of that problem. IN FACT,imo the opposite holds, and "other players as content" is the way to go, if it can be implemented successfully (half the battle will be player selection possibly I'm wondering?)
And pvp in principle should be the bigger, related brother to pve imo. What's the difference between a mob or a player fighting you, unless the player is a griefer? The potential goes both ways more positive or more negative. Let's hope the positive direction works out for this one.
He doesn't realize that they aren't actually promising a game, they are funding a pitch. Essentially what they are promising is to create is a pencil-and-paper module with some added artwork that would then be pitched to investors (along with the list of doners as evidence of demand) to turn into an MMO. Being able to show that you beat your goal several times over should play well in a pitch.
Personally, I feel like they are putting the cart before the horse. If you want to actually make something new, I want to see a focus on the actual game engine - not lore, not even the graphics/physics part of it, but the core world mechanics and databases that are going to make this world different from other static world out there. I would like to see a kickstarter project to succeed and I have a lot of respect for pathfinder as a pencil-and-paper game, but the more I examine this inkblot to understand what they actually have in mind, the more I see this particular game idea is a checklist of things I *don't* want to see in a new game: cash-shop driven buisness model, openly hostile to non-PvP players, static content.
They've already reached their goals, so this project has definitely got traction. Perhaps they will succeed in building a better Darkfall. But I can't say I get a warm-and-fuzzy feeling off of it.
I'm keen to see what the engine is like also, what middleware allows them to do and what limits it places also. I think they've got a good artist on board (check?) Wayne Renolds and looking at some samples of that work it is fine, but yes the engine/tech is really crucial.
That said, if you read the blogs the design to manage the game and number of persistent players seems like it could work eg the hex system. Also I disagree with the label of non-pvp players getting "shafted". It's bad implementation of other pvp systems in other mmorpgs that ruins those. GW are well aware of that problem. IN FACT,imo the opposite holds, and "other players as content" is the way to go, if it can be implemented successfully (half the battle will be player selection possibly I'm wondering?)
And pvp in principle should be the bigger, related brother to pve imo. What's the difference between a mob or a player fighting you, unless the player is a griefer? The potential goes both ways more positive or more negative. Let's hope the positive direction works out for this one.
Mobs make sense, other players attacking you for no reason is just chaos. Open warefare isn't even so chaotic.
This, as far as i'm concerned, is worth than elder scroll, as DND has little pvp and sandbox elements and yet here we are making a pvp sandbox games of DND .
In DND you get quests, you go on adventures with your buddies, you kill mobs you get loot you save some princes or kingdoms. Myteries unfold, the larger plot comes to fruition.
From the sound of it, the initial plan was to do this, but when that was nixed they decided to create a low budget somethiing or another.
Mobs vary in difficult, have additional abilities and tactics and presented with an AI to achieve a speicfic goal, whether its gaurding something or attacking or protecting an area. Advanced IEs in real MMOs have sophisticated tactics that can be challenging.
Remember the PnP community is going to create the content in Pathfinder Online, the devs just give us the tools and we create are own stories and adventures.
This is how mmorpgs used to be, we don't need people to create content for us.
We create are own content with the tools given to us, and the PnP community has been doing this successfully for over 36 years.
Use your own imagination and you will find its more rewarding then some boss fight in WoW!
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
Originally posted by BlackUhuru Remember the PnP community is going to create the content in Pathfinder Online, the devs just give us the tools and we create are own stories and adventures.
This is how mmorpgs used to be, we don't need people to create content for us.
We create are own content with the tools given to us, and the PnP community has been doing this successfully for over 36 years.
Use your own imagination and you will find its more rewarding then some boss fight in WoW!
Keep in mind that the PnP community is quite niche. You don't see DnD posting profit numbers like large video game publishers. I would be willing to bet that the majority of video game players (and MMO players more specifically) would prefer to have content provided to them with their purchase, rather than having to create their own. I can see a sandbox/themepark hybrid working, but just the tools to create your own content is going to appeal to a very specific and limited audience.
And what's wrong with that? Pathfinder online is not trying to gain the attention of the mass market, hence the limited subscription to the game at launch.
There is nothing wrong with niche, some of the longest running, successful mmo's on the market today are niche.
Theme parks are played and abandoned within months, only to be visited again months or years later after a new expansion is made. Only to be abandoned again soon after.
Successful niche sandbox mmo's are played for years on end with strong communities and RP. There just haven't been a lot of quality niche games made in the past 14 years.
But the ones that are good thrive!!!
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
Originally posted by BlackUhuru Remember the PnP community is going to create the content in Pathfinder Online, the devs just give us the tools and we create are own stories and adventures.
Originally posted by BlackUhuru What wouldnt give you that impression?
Please refer me to one concrete example of what has actually been written and presented that shows an innovation being worked on that is not currently on the market?
Right now, all I see are a lot "yeah, we're going to be different, we're going to give you exactly what you've always wanted" hype ... but every game gives that hype. When I look more closely at the details, all the ideas that I see presented are already out there on the market, have already been tried.
(I'm willing to consider the possibility that I've missed something because I know a few of the names involved and they are bright people ... but I need to see some proof positive)
Originally posted by BlackUhuru Remember the PnP community is going to create the content in Pathfinder Online, the devs just give us the tools and we create are own stories and adventures.
This is how mmorpgs used to be, we don't need people to create content for us.
We create are own content with the tools given to us, and the PnP community has been doing this successfully for over 36 years.
Use your own imagination and you will find its more rewarding then some boss fight in WoW!
A DM, making stuff for 4 ,to 10 people is easy. Trying to make challenging things for hundreds. YOu're going to run into the same problem as little big planet (and to that extent never winter nights) 90 percent crap, 10 percent good content.
I can use my own imagination on a tabletop game, i certainly don't need to spend 60 bucks to get to do it again. BTW, Neverwinter nights gave us this, and its why 2 didn't dod so well. Games got more sophisticated and building a dungeon was far easier on a graph paper than it is in a 3d world. As a player, i depend on the dm to provide chalenging content, not the guy next to me.
Originally posted by BlackUhuru Remember the PnP community is going to create the content in Pathfinder Online, the devs just give us the tools and we create are own stories and adventures.
THIS is why they are getting my support.
I am hoping someone looked at what NWN achieved and has seen the massive potentiol in tapping that kind of community for their MMORPG.
And what's wrong with that? Pathfinder online is not trying to gain the attention of the mass market, hence the limited subscription to the game at launch.
There is nothing wrong with niche, some of the longest running, successful mmo's on the market today are niche.
Theme parks are played and abandoned within months, only to be visited again months or years later after a new expansion is made. Only to be abandoned again soon after.
Successful niche sandbox mmo's are played for years on end with strong communities and RP. There just haven't been a lot of quality niche games made in the past 14 years.
But the ones that are good thrive!!!
There's nothing wrong with it in my opinion. However, they are seeking investment capital and I would expect the investors to want to maximize the gain on their investment in the shortest amount of time possible. That's what investors look for in investments and it's also the reason we have so many garbage games. If the Pathfinder devs can find investment capital from investors that won't push their ideas on the game, awesome. I think that is a rare find though.
Originally posted by BlackUhuru Remember the PnP community is going to create the content in Pathfinder Online, the devs just give us the tools and we create are own stories and adventures.
THIS is why they are getting my support.
I am hoping someone looked at what NWN achieved and has seen the massive potentiol in tapping that kind of community for their MMORPG.
THIS IS NOT WHAT THEY ARE BUILDING. YOU PEOPLE ARE MAKING UP PROMISES OUT OF THIN AIR.
Originally posted by BlackUhuru Remember the PnP community is going to create the content in Pathfinder Online, the devs just give us the tools and we create are own stories and adventures.
This is how mmorpgs used to be, we don't need people to create content for us.
We create are own content with the tools given to us, and the PnP community has been doing this successfully for over 36 years.
Use your own imagination and you will find its more rewarding then some boss fight in WoW!
BTW, Neverwinter nights gave us this, and its why 2 didn't dod so well.
... NWN sold over 2kk boxes, 10 years ago, as a PC only RPG.
And there is still a community there splaying it and supporting it, because of player generated content.
Originally posted by BlackUhuru Remember the PnP community is going to create the content in Pathfinder Online, the devs just give us the tools and we create are own stories and adventures.
THIS is why they are getting my support.
I am hoping someone looked at what NWN achieved and has seen the massive potentiol in tapping that kind of community for their MMORPG.
THIS IS NOT WHAT THEY ARE BUILDING. YOU PEOPLE ARE MAKING UP PROMISES OUT OF THIN AIR.
*pulls out hair in frustration*
Don't get frustrated... just provide links and evidence to back up what you are saying instead of using caps.
He doesn't realize that they aren't actually promising a game, they are funding a pitch. Essentially what they are promising is to create is a pencil-and-paper module with some added artwork that would then be pitched to investors (along with the list of doners as evidence of demand) to turn into an MMO. Being able to show that you beat your goal several times over should play well in a pitch.
Personally, I feel like they are putting the cart before the horse. If you want to actually make something new, I want to see a focus on the actual game engine - not lore, not even the graphics/physics part of it, but the core world mechanics and databases that are going to make this world different from other static world out there. I would like to see a kickstarter project to succeed and I have a lot of respect for pathfinder as a pencil-and-paper game, but the more I examine this inkblot to understand what they actually have in mind, the more I see this particular game idea is a checklist of things I *don't* want to see in a new game: cash-shop driven buisness model, openly hostile to non-PvP players, static content.
They've already reached their goals, so this project has definitely got traction. Perhaps they will succeed in building a better Darkfall. But I can't say I get a warm-and-fuzzy feeling off of it.
I really want to support this project, but I just don't think it has legs. My dad taught me an awesome lesson when i was little. You really do get what you pay for in this world. Words like sandbox (so we don't have t o design much), middlewear (someone else's failed product) and PVP (never had a pathfinder game that focused on players attacking other players) I just think it's going to flail out. I'd rather just buy the PDF when it comes out. It's ambitious, and admirable, but if you don't have the money to do something you just don't do it until you do, else you come out with a halfass version of your original idea.
How come people are so gullible? They don't even have a project. They are funding a pitch that may or may not result in ANY investment.
Most like you will get almost nothing (well, i suppose a video with some 3D char running around is sth) for your money.
There are MANY MMO projects with million dollar funidng going down the tubes because of mismanagement. There is no reason to believe this has a particularly high chance of success.
Are you saying if i put up a kickstart page saying all the right buzz words (sandbox, community, pvp, dynamic events, player inputs) then you are going to give me your money disregarding how small the chance of the eventual project happening? May be i should try that. I pledge to raise 200k to fund a pitch to get a kickstarter pitch going .. i promise when it is done, it will be the most glorious sandbox ever created for mankind with FULL matrix virtual world like features. Now start giving me money!
Don't get frustrated... just provide links and evidence to back up what you are saying instead of using caps.
Why is it my responsibility? You are the one making up claims out of thin air about what they are developing and posting it in a thread where people are being asked to donate real money.
Comments
He doesn't realize that they aren't actually promising a game, they are funding a pitch. Essentially what they are promising is to create is a pencil-and-paper module with some added artwork that would then be pitched to investors (along with the list of doners as evidence of demand) to turn into an MMO. Being able to show that you beat your goal several times over should play well in a pitch.
Personally, I feel like they are putting the cart before the horse. If you want to actually make something new, I want to see a focus on the actual game engine - not lore, not even the graphics/physics part of it, but the core world mechanics and databases that are going to make this world different from other static world out there. I would like to see a kickstarter project to succeed and I have a lot of respect for pathfinder as a pencil-and-paper game, but the more I examine this inkblot to understand what they actually have in mind, the more I see this particular game idea is a checklist of things I *don't* want to see in a new game: cash-shop driven buisness model, openly hostile to non-PvP players, static content.
They've already reached their goals, so this project has definitely got traction. Perhaps they will succeed in building a better Darkfall. But I can't say I get a warm-and-fuzzy feeling off of it.
I really want to support this project, but I just don't think it has legs. My dad taught me an awesome lesson when i was little. You really do get what you pay for in this world. Words like sandbox (so we don't have t o design much), middlewear (someone else's failed product) and PVP (never had a pathfinder game that focused on players attacking other players) I just think it's going to flail out. I'd rather just buy the PDF when it comes out. It's ambitious, and admirable, but if you don't have the money to do something you just don't do it until you do, else you come out with a halfass version of your original idea.
( for the record, despite all my criticism above, I still decided to skip a hamburger and pledge the savings - I may be six dimensions of skeptical, but as a fan of game design, I want to be a patron of the art and give them the chance to prove me wrong )
I'm keen to see what the engine is like also, what middleware allows them to do and what limits it places also. I think they've got a good artist on board (check?) Wayne Renolds and looking at some samples of that work it is fine, but yes the engine/tech is really crucial.
That said, if you read the blogs the design to manage the game and number of persistent players seems like it could work eg the hex system. Also I disagree with the label of non-pvp players getting "shafted". It's bad implementation of other pvp systems in other mmorpgs that ruins those. GW are well aware of that problem. IN FACT,imo the opposite holds, and "other players as content" is the way to go, if it can be implemented successfully (half the battle will be player selection possibly I'm wondering?)
And pvp in principle should be the bigger, related brother to pve imo.
What's the difference between a mob or a player fighting you, unless the player is a griefer? The potential goes both ways more positive or more negative. Let's hope the positive direction works out for this one.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Mobs make sense, other players attacking you for no reason is just chaos. Open warefare isn't even so chaotic.
This, as far as i'm concerned, is worth than elder scroll, as DND has little pvp and sandbox elements and yet here we are making a pvp sandbox games of DND .
In DND you get quests, you go on adventures with your buddies, you kill mobs you get loot you save some princes or kingdoms. Myteries unfold, the larger plot comes to fruition.
From the sound of it, the initial plan was to do this, but when that was nixed they decided to create a low budget somethiing or another.
Mobs vary in difficult, have additional abilities and tactics and presented with an AI to achieve a speicfic goal, whether its gaurding something or attacking or protecting an area. Advanced IEs in real MMOs have sophisticated tactics that can be challenging.
This is how mmorpgs used to be, we don't need people to create content for us.
We create are own content with the tools given to us, and the PnP community has been doing this successfully for over 36 years.
Use your own imagination and you will find its more rewarding then some boss fight in WoW!
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
Keep in mind that the PnP community is quite niche. You don't see DnD posting profit numbers like large video game publishers. I would be willing to bet that the majority of video game players (and MMO players more specifically) would prefer to have content provided to them with their purchase, rather than having to create their own. I can see a sandbox/themepark hybrid working, but just the tools to create your own content is going to appeal to a very specific and limited audience.
And what's wrong with that? Pathfinder online is not trying to gain the attention of the mass market, hence the limited subscription to the game at launch.
There is nothing wrong with niche, some of the longest running, successful mmo's on the market today are niche.
Theme parks are played and abandoned within months, only to be visited again months or years later after a new expansion is made. Only to be abandoned again soon after.
Successful niche sandbox mmo's are played for years on end with strong communities and RP. There just haven't been a lot of quality niche games made in the past 14 years.
But the ones that are good thrive!!!
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
Thanks to the community for the support! We get a forth dungeon from the legendary Ed Greenwood woot!!!!
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
Where are you getting this impression from?
Only allowing a selected group of 4.5k players in the game at the start to create the community first before opening up the game to the public.
The blogs at Goblinworks.com.
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
What wouldnt give you that impression?
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
Please refer me to one concrete example of what has actually been written and presented that shows an innovation being worked on that is not currently on the market?
Right now, all I see are a lot "yeah, we're going to be different, we're going to give you exactly what you've always wanted" hype ... but every game gives that hype. When I look more closely at the details, all the ideas that I see presented are already out there on the market, have already been tried.
(I'm willing to consider the possibility that I've missed something because I know a few of the names involved and they are bright people ... but I need to see some proof positive)
A DM, making stuff for 4 ,to 10 people is easy. Trying to make challenging things for hundreds. YOu're going to run into the same problem as little big planet (and to that extent never winter nights) 90 percent crap, 10 percent good content.
I can use my own imagination on a tabletop game, i certainly don't need to spend 60 bucks to get to do it again. BTW, Neverwinter nights gave us this, and its why 2 didn't dod so well. Games got more sophisticated and building a dungeon was far easier on a graph paper than it is in a 3d world. As a player, i depend on the dm to provide chalenging content, not the guy next to me.
It's called RPG! The innovation is from the players using their imagination not some Dev telling them what to do or be.
Innovation comes from your own ability to think out side the box!
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
What exactly are these developers contributing if not a better box?
THIS is why they are getting my support.
I am hoping someone looked at what NWN achieved and has seen the massive potentiol in tapping that kind of community for their MMORPG.
There's nothing wrong with it in my opinion. However, they are seeking investment capital and I would expect the investors to want to maximize the gain on their investment in the shortest amount of time possible. That's what investors look for in investments and it's also the reason we have so many garbage games. If the Pathfinder devs can find investment capital from investors that won't push their ideas on the game, awesome. I think that is a rare find though.
THIS IS NOT WHAT THEY ARE BUILDING. YOU PEOPLE ARE MAKING UP PROMISES OUT OF THIN AIR.
*pulls out hair in frustration*
... NWN sold over 2kk boxes, 10 years ago, as a PC only RPG.
And there is still a community there splaying it and supporting it, because of player generated content.
'Didn't do well'? pffft...
Don't get frustrated... just provide links and evidence to back up what you are saying instead of using caps.
I voted for them with my wallet..... 200K isn't bad for pledges to build a TECHNOLOGY DEMO....not even the final project.
How come people are so gullible? They don't even have a project. They are funding a pitch that may or may not result in ANY investment.
Most like you will get almost nothing (well, i suppose a video with some 3D char running around is sth) for your money.
There are MANY MMO projects with million dollar funidng going down the tubes because of mismanagement. There is no reason to believe this has a particularly high chance of success.
Are you saying if i put up a kickstart page saying all the right buzz words (sandbox, community, pvp, dynamic events, player inputs) then you are going to give me your money disregarding how small the chance of the eventual project happening? May be i should try that. I pledge to raise 200k to fund a pitch to get a kickstarter pitch going .. i promise when it is done, it will be the most glorious sandbox ever created for mankind with FULL matrix virtual world like features. Now start giving me money!
Why is it my responsibility? You are the one making up claims out of thin air about what they are developing and posting it in a thread where people are being asked to donate real money.
*sigh*
Here's their concept blog, have fun: https://goblinworks.com/blog/
Because YOU are the one screaming all the forum in drama caps.
Put up or shut up.