Player Death

ajmstilt · June 2005

This may have been brought up before but i couldn't find it.

Okay does you character die?

If not how does he/she survive, and what kind of penalties shoudl there be.

Personally I'm a fan of harsh (perma-death) penalties, but i know that won't fly.

So will we say have a bank of clones somwhere that are activated at the time of death and we loose our inventory, or something more "mystical"?

Maybe we never die but are knocked unconcience and some roving band of someones finds us and carries us to the closest settlement?

thoughts?

Delgado · June 2005

Perma Death wouldnt work under normal circumstances, unless it was of course an event. No one would ever get anywhere really.

Radzik · June 2005

One penalty I think is a must in this game for dying is inventory loss.

Temp stat loss, temp skill loss, and all that other junk is just an annoyance. Losing items will make you think twice about doing something stupid and risky.

Stowaway · June 2005

I think it would be interesting to have varied penalty.

Waking up in the hospital with a message like.

"You were transported to the hospital by a passing caravan, the bandits who attacked you have taken your weaponry, currency you were carrying and your boots."

"You were injured fighting a <Creature Name>, you are suffering from <Wounds> and are <state>"

Or something.

I dont think i'd like to see clones or anything in what seems to be so far (Or i am hoping) is going to be bare bones earth, post-apocolyptic, rebuilding and reclaiming the fallen earth.

Just wouldn't fit.

Cthulhuvong · June 2005

I'm pretty sure from what I've seen its going to be some sort of cloning. And although this is the easiest to do programing wise, its the hardest to explain enviroment wise. Honestly, how do you explain that everyone has cloning? and how do you explain that it knows exactly when to clone you.

I love what Stowaway has here. Definately what I've always wanted to see in a game.

A1learjet · June 2005

Well item loss or a % chance to lose some item/items would be a thing to place in your head as to taking a risk.

But what about some sort of % of experince loss? and as in alot of games you restart after death at a respawn or binding area.

Hmm maybee we will have some sort of storage so that if you take a risk you can store the items you really would hate to lose.For that reason I think a exp lose would be better(not effecting skills or anything) just your overall exp towards your next level.

Stowaway · June 2005

hard to talk about xp yet without knowing what the xp system is like.

Tymora · June 2005

You guys all have some good ideas. Personally, I go along with the more serious (and realistic) perma-death type of system. I also realize no developer has the gusto to go ahead with this (Turbine whimped out with Middle Earth Online after the fan-base cried on the boards).

I can see why the players would be concerned, but I think they get the wrong idea immediately when they see perma-death. What I imagine as a perma-death system is the slight chance to die for good, but having many opportunities to escape death. I don't think that a character should die and come back. When you're dead, you're dead. It gives a sense of loss and makes the gameworld exciting and dangerous. When you see that creature that looks like it will really kick your ass, you bet you will not attack it if you may die and lose your character forever.

In games such as World of Warcraft, where combat seems relatively simple and it is easy to gauge a creatures strength compared to your own, it would not be unreasonable to have a perma-death system where you would rarely, if ever, die against creatures you know you can defeat. I know there are times when a character will get ganked with adds, but this would be a situation where an escape must be available. The character would leave the encounter without EXP and other rewards, but the character would live to fight another day.

So basically, I suggest a system with perma-death, but with options to escpape it. Smart characters will not have a problem with this. Stupid ones who insist on attacking the creature 10 levels above his/her own will cry like a baby.

Stowaway · June 2005

The way i look at it is that one way allows for all styles of play to enjoy it, the other doesnt.

perma-death would screw over a lot of playstyles.

some form of respawn doesnt. but still allows the hardcore to play as they wish.

if you wish to be perma-death. you can be perma-death. you have a delete character option. I don't think its wise or fair to force everyone to play that way.

they've talked about different servers before to do with pvp, maybe a permadeth server?

i'd love to see a rp server.

a game is what you make it and if you want to roleplay or just play the game in a certain way, you can do that.

I think the best thing to do with death is to make it fair to all, but still have some form of penalty.

SWG seems to have no penalty what so ever anymore, and the only reason you fear death is because you have to clone and maybe drive back to where you were to continue fighting.

i've been playing the city of heroes trial and the xp debt on that is enough to make me not want to die.

Stowaway · July 2005

The risk of dying in Fallen Earth is quite real, especially given its dangerous, post-apocalyptic setting. James Hettinger, the CEO of Icarus Studios explains, On death, players can be resuscitated by one of their squad members or passers by using medical devices. In the event there is no one around, the player will be presumed dead and a clone will appear at a nearby replication chamber. There will be a modest experience debt that the players will have to work off.

found this from an article i read a while back.

So looks like it is cloning.

Atheraal · July 2005

Originally posted by Stowaway
The risk of dying in Fallen Earth is quite real, especially given its dangerous, post-apocalyptic setting. James Hettinger, the CEO of Icarus Studios explains, On death, players can be resuscitated by one of their squad members or passers by using medical devices. In the event there is no one around, the player will be presumed dead and a clone will appear at a nearby replication chamber. There will be a modest experience debt that the players will have to work off.
found this from an article i read a while back.So looks like it is cloning.

Good. Any more severe penalty would just make the game unproductive and no fun.

In response to the previous comment of "losing items on death would keep players from doing risky or stupid things" GEE, god forbid anyone try and do stupid, risky, (aka FUN) stuff in a GAME.

It's people like you who want realism in a game so much that they would be willing to sacrifice gameplay value that ruin games for everyone.

You know what one of the most fun games of all time is? Maybe you've heard of it.. Mario? Not too much realism to that, you jump about ten times your height, wearing different hats gives you different abilities such as flying, eating giant mushrooms make you double your size, things die and disappear when you jump on them... yet it's ridiculously fun.

I wonder how fun it would be if you jumped half your height, decided you looked kind of neat when you wore different hats, started throwing up when you ate mushrooms, and would trip and break your face when you jumped on stuff? Realism does not directly equal fun. the first priority in a game should be making it a fun game, not making it as close to mundane life (that you could just go experience yourself) as possible.

Sorry to rant, but people who push for realism above all else in games piss me off to no end.

Radzik · July 2005

Sure, too much realism would make the game boring. But too much fantasy would make the game childish, ie Mario. We need to find a good medium. Compairing Mario Bros. to a MMORPG in development is like compairing a Model-T to a Viper. ::::12::

For an MMORPG you need some kind of penalty for dying. You dont have xx amount of lives and when they run out "GAME OVER". There is no game over in MMORPG's. So in order to make people fear dying you have to give out some kind a penalty. Without a penalty what would stop anybody from just rushing the biggest baddest mutant out there? If they have nothing to lose they have nothing to fear.

Item loss on death is a needed penalty for a game like this. *edit*(I was allways under the impression that this game is FPS based and not level based)If it doesnt use a level system then you cant lose exp on death. Temporary ability loss just takes you out of the game for however long it takes to replenish. With item loss how long it takes you to get your gear back depends on your playing skills.

I know if I played a game with item loss I wouldnt carry my most prized possessions with me to a dungeon crawl, and allways have backup equipment back at town. Backup equipment= no timeout of playing.

Delgado · July 2005

How about we make everyone perma-fodder except for me. It would make that game tag very interesting.

adrir · July 2005

Fun Factor > Immersion

While I agree that the fun factor is of prime importance for gameplay value, immersion should not be neglected and since realism is a principle part of this, it should be included within the game mechanisms.

Within the context of this discussion, the penalty for death as I currently understand, based upon the available newsletters and articles, is a clone and xp loss system.

Cloning can be justified in the post-apocolyptic environment since, logically, it would have been a technology that would have been preserved by the enclaves during the Fall. There are also reasons that could justify the lack of automotive technologies. For example, lack of fuel, lack of roads, etc. Also bear in mind, numerous non-player characters may possess buggies, and there are likely to be very few cloners. However, this is really speculation, can we try the beta first?

My opinion on the player death mechanism cannot be founded until the beta. Assuming that players are very restricted with their carried equipment (weapons, armor, inventory) and the equipment was statless or easily obtainable, then an item loss system may be suitable. Dependent on character development and skill gain, perhaps a skill-loss, xp-loss or even an experience-sink system. Perhaps a temporary weakness system is more practical under the circumstances.

Perma-death is unreasonable for the sole reason of practicality. Losing hundreds of hours of gameplay to a lag spike would force many players into quitting.

Stowaway · July 2005

id love to try the beta first and then talk about the game and what should be changed, isnt that what beta is about!?

but as i said in my other post :P

Beta isnt out yet, we have such a little amount of info all I can do is cling onto what we do have and wake up every morning hoping there's been another tidbit of news or an announcement.

My biggest fear is that the announcements never come and in a month or more im still in this forum going crazy waiting for this game or the new website :P ::::06::

in conclusion: there's nothing wrong with talking about ideas, and problems and how you'd like things to be without knowing all the facts, fact: We dont know the facts, fact: we all are very interested in this game and want to talk about it..... or we wouldnt be here!?

Clive · July 2005

everyones talking about fun factor vs immersion,

while some people think inventory loss would kill fun factor, i think it would add to it. It means being able to PK would have some meaning, it would also make some one think twice before doiing something really risky (ie PKing)

Zangk · July 2005

So I keep hearing Realism VS fantacy or such. But what I think is that there is alot of fantacy in it. First of all it is in a future with a variety of technology, not to mention the bizzar creatures that will be in the game. Right there is lots of fantacy (or whatever it is really called). Also the enviroment will probably have some non realism in it to. The characters are subject to powers. So with all this non realism, there should be some realism to balance it. To make the setting more believable.

Mundus · July 2005

I think fiction (for example abnormal creatures) does not necessarily exclude realism.
For me realism means not that there are no better technologies in the game world that we actually have or unknown creatures.
For me it´s enough when on a planet named earth in that game world at least the physics arent completely different than ours.

I think there are many unkown, abnormal creatures that we dont know on the ground of the sea too. :P

balle68 · August 2005

oke oke you die right then it could be like life packs if you get attacked and u die

you can use a life pack to revive yourself and thay would be expensive

but the die and inventory loss is bad lets say it gets broken or half of the vorless crap is gone

but if u have no life packs and your screwd then u get get teleported to the home town but only at a time like 1 hour to you get teleported

(i am retared and dumb when it comes to exided new games!)

Calmar · August 2005

Yes, this is a very tough subject.

Instead of a clone running around, it would be neat to have your character age a little. it may not even have to show up visually. but have an age counter and mostly for RP purposes have, instead of a clone, your "descendents" start with a fresh age counter. In essence it is still cloneing but may add to a little to the RP.

RipperjackAU · September 2005

Originally posted by Stowaway

So looks like it is cloning.

Cloning I can live with.

As much as perma-death would force the average player to think and not take stupid risks, I still think perma-death is far too painful to deal with, as a punishment for death.

For one thing, most of the times I die in games like World of Warcraft, it is not because if anything I have done, but usually because one of the party was being a hero and drew in a whole mob of monsters that we were not prepared to deal with. So 99.9% of the time I do die, it is because of the careless actions of someone else.

It is for that reason I feel that perma-death should not be allowed. It is simply too harsh a punishment for the results of actions, that were not your fault.

So what would be a good penalty for death you ask.

Well based on the environment of the game and from what scant information has been released, something like...

Unless revived, you reappear with a clone in a central medical facility location.
Stats, skills and attributes are not effected.
You will have to bare an experience penalty you would have to work off. Al la, City Of Heroes.
All carried inventory ( not items stored in banks, vaults or in your "backpacks" ) are on your corpse, you do not have possession of them when you step out of the clone bank. You need to find your corpse to recover them.
Items on your corpse cannot be accessed by anybody else for a period of 24 hours. After which items can be taken by any players for another 24 hours. After this time, a total of 48 hours, the corpse is removed from the game world with all equipment if not recovered, to save on resources with the server tracking all those dead bodies.
Depending on the current level of game technology, they may or may not be a device that can "teleport" your corpse to an "in town" location for a fee, for easy recovery of items.
If there is item durability, then your items would be damaged by a set amount.

If this system were implemented then it would make death a real pain to deal with, so players would think twice about doing something silly, without totally screwing over your character.

Cthulhuvong · September 2005

Thats actually a great idea RipperjackAU, thumbs up to you ::::28::

chromdom · September 2005

I'm not so sure about bringing back EQ-style corpse runs.
Although I do like the idea of using equipment transportation/teleportation as a money-sink. Depending on how far it's coming to the clone bank, and your relative experience, it could keep inflation under control. Maybe make it a percentage of your liquid cash?

Say, there's a brand new character. He walks out of the starter town and is attacked and killed by a couple of bandits immediately. He only had $10 on him, so he can either walk back out of the town and get his equipment back, or pay $1 (which is 10% of his money) to have his equipment brought to him.

Conversely, there's a very experienced character (are they using levels? Anyone know?) who is killed deep in a mine far from the town where he's being cloned. He can either hike through the wastelands nekkid, and hope to make it back to his corpse and grab his gear, or pay 10% of his cash to have all his stuff brought to him. If he's managed to save up $1,000,000, then 10% would be $100,000. That may be worth it, to not have to try to cross the world weaponless. Or, if he's got that much money, he can choose to forget about that equipment, and just buy new stuff.

Just kinda thinking out loud here. What do you think?

sinoth · September 2005

I like the idea, with possibly a few changes. Neocron had a system very similar to this, where after you died you could hit a Gene Replicator, which served as a teleporter, and teleport all your items back to you. Depending on what level you were, this cost more and more credits. Even if FE doesn't work on a level system, perhaps you could judge the teleport cost by how expensive the items are that are being teleported?

I think 24 hours to retrieve your corpse is a little too long. 6 hours maybe, or even less. 48 hours sounds about right for item decay, or maybe even 72 if the server could handle it. Randomly coming across piles of supplies while exploring would be a very nice treat.

I still feel a little funny though about complete no-loot for an amount of time. Imagine you are cruising the desert when you see someone fighting a huge beast. This person is obviously not as learned in the ways of the badlands as you are, because they are biting off waay more than they can chew. A few minutes later, after the beast wins, you stroll on over to their corpse to pick up a few extra supplies. Under the no-loot situation, this would not be possible.

This thread is probably not the place to discuss this issue, as it is being discussed in the PvP thread. Just wanted to mention it.

Xilanxiv · September 2005

Ripper, I really like your ideas, and the developments the others made on them sound not bad at all. On the subject of penalties, I remember from reading the Endurance Magazine, that there is something called "Memory Minders." And the cloning process is called being "Reloaded." Anyway, a thought I had is this. The game is supposed to be based on skills gained rather than exp earned right? Well, in RL, accidents causing brain damage, i.e. strokes, er accidents etc, depending on which part of the brain gets affected will have effects on anything from your motor skills to language comprehension or speech. Sometimes if the damage is bad enough it will be permanent. Other times the person must work at the affected skill through practice. People with damage to Broca's area will see a speech therapist and eventually begin to speak well again. I think something similar may be cool. Imagine, you die. The game randomly picks a skill or set of skills to be damaged, not permanently, but you'll have to do some work to get back to the level you were at. To be fair, no where near the amount it initially took to get the level, but enough to keep people from running straight back to the field. Also, I gave myself an idea with what I said above, what if there were a chance to lose some motor skills, like your guy walks slowly for a while, or sometimes text chat from other players comes across slightly scrambled, or your text or messy to others. Also, perhaps, since it's a FPS, your xhairs may drift a little, or shake a little or something. Maybe some combonation or these, with a corpse loss. I think a long penalty, perhaps even a day or so, will make people more careful about dying, but it won't hurt them in the long run. You know, you get your new body, it shouldn't be able to run and jump immediately, but would need loosened up a bit. I like my idea about the speech thing, that might be funny, some guy walks up to you and is like, "asd ik poe mmnb purt huzle blit." Just wound be interesting. And realistic.

darkaster · September 2005

Loving the ideas here, but sinoth, i think 6 hours might be a little too small of a time between death and getting corpse, unless its 6 hours of gameplay. Imagine if you die 4 AM in the morning, and have to be at work at 8. You die, you log off, you go to work, come back, and your stuff is gone, no fun for people have other obligations at time of death =

What do you guys think?

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