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Gap between new player and Veterans
Bloodgood
Member Posts: 76
I posted this on the eve-online.com forum. Thought posting it here maybe would give some more people to read it.
"Many of my friends dont want to play this game because if you have played this game for 1 year and then someone else starts a new character he will never catch up to the veteran[:pirate:]. 1 year SKILL training in this game is a alot.
An idea that i got is, why not make new characters able to train more then one skill at a time, make it 3 or 4 skills UNTIL they come to x number skillpoints, AND/OR they have reached lvl 4 on all skills OR x number skills, after that its normal training again. What do you guys think? whats does CCP think?
Please post your constructive ideas and suggestions.
Thanks.
Bloodgood"
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Comments
you can catch up if you specialize but if you never start you can never catch up. You can also buy a very nice toon for 1 billion isk on ccp's auction forum so thats another route you can take.
Make a difference!
Specialization is definitely the key to hanging with the vets. Understanding the skill system and how it works is also important. Analyze the learning skills and know what implants are. Realize that ISK (Cash) plays a big part in this game. You can speed up your equipment and skill learning if you can earn ISK and spend it the right way.
Finally, remember too that new players are always joining and vets may be retiring or playing less. The player base is growing. This game still has a relatively small player base and is the only game I'm aware of that has only one giant persistent world.
Implants
Learning skills
And always train!
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Don't click here...no2
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a finite number of skills? Eventually a "vet" is going to be maxed out. Eventually new players will catch up by sheer inertia. For example: A nearly maxxed out vet will take longer just to get his level 5 skills than a new player will take to get to level 4 in the same skills. At least that's what I can see at initial glances at the skill system. Blocks 1-4 in all the skills are pretty quick (longest is a couple days) but the 5 blocks take 2-3 weeks each. Longest I saw was 20+ days!!!! I know learning skills can bring those numbers down a bit but you're still talking about a HUGE time lag to get the tip-top skills whereas the new players will fly through the lower ones.
Am I missing something? I just don't see why someone would avoid a game just because they'd be a bit behind. ???
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Anyone that wants to transfer 1 billion to my account in EVE will be greatly appreciated
Kidding, of course! HEHE 75% of the fun is getting there yourself. I've never understood people who buy toons, be it on ebay or in game.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
You can't max out your skills thats the ebauty of it
Most tech 2 stuff takes like 30 days to train!
You can specialise in anything and most the people i know have different chars to do different things :P
Back in like 03 i heard i took over 2 years to train everything! I don't know how long it does now and they always release new skills
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Don't click here...no2
IMO this is 1 of the biggest misconceptions ppl have about eve.
A newer player can definitely become competative and a threat to a vetran by just taking the time and effor to get the skills to atleas lvl 4 and to specialize instead of branching out so much.
Anyone that wants to transfer 1 billion to my account in EVE will be greatly appreciated
Kidding, of course! HEHE 75% of the fun is getting there yourself. I've never understood people who buy toons, be it on ebay or in game.
Well with EVE you can only have 1 toon training at a time so those who prefer to specialize in pvp or industry usually buy (wish isk) a toon of the other persuasion. It really only takes 1 week of farming complexs in 0.0 to get the money to buy a pretty good toon.
Make a difference!
I competly agree. When you are talking a 5% difference in most skills from Level 4 to Level 5 there isn't that much difference from a Vet and a newer player. The biggest difference is that a "vet" can probably fly more ships or can both mine and fight well in one ship. However, if you specialise in one or two racial ships you can fly them quite well in no time. Personally I cannot fly any battleships at all (yet) however I went out to be an Assault Ship and/or interceptor pilot so I can use both Amarr and Caldari (dont ask why...wish I took Gallente now) Assault Ships and Interceptors and use the Amarr Weapons at a Tech II level. One of my other friends is an awesome Gallente pilot because he just wanted to be a good frigate pilot and uses us Enyo (Assault Ship) very well....however he cannot use any other ships at the moment.
Just food for thought.
Well the great urban myth of EVE is that you can't catch up to older players... I say urban myth because it is not true... yes I got 18 million sp in various fields and suppose since I played for one and a half year I can be considered an "old player"...
BUT, out of my 18 million sp I got roughly 11 million sp in combatrelated skills like Electronic, Engineering, Gunnery, Mechanic, Drones, Missiles and Spaceship command.
Out of these again I am most likly using less than a few million sp every time I am out doing a mission or fighting.
I am currently training some research skills yes (I want tech 2 blueprints), is not so far from getting tech 2 weapons either (can use small tech 2 blasters and railguns).
In other word... I am pretty sure I would get my ass kicked if a 6 months old guy came and challanged me to a fight, yes I have scared off pirates before, have lost ships to gatecamps too it just that I don't pvp so much and that means I am sort of inexperienced to that.
Anyone that specialize in combat will catch up to me real fast!!! infact one in the corp who have hardly ever had his hand on mining could deal a fight on me.
In our corp we from time to time have a corpfight where we set out in frigs and shoot eachother to pieces.. I usually loose!!! why ??? (mostly because everyone else is ganging up on me) ... tactics...
The biggest problem people have in understanding EVE is in realising that it is not grind based. Sure you need to do things over again to earn isk but there is not a treadmill like other games and there is no concept of "Falling Behind".
Newer players are not as effective as old ones in many cases, but new players can be valuable members of a corporation - and this is a team game.
As for skills... specialisation in any one area does not take all that long. The real difference between new players and old players is that there are some skills that are common to all areas and old players will have already trained them. This means that old players can cross specialise more quickly than new players but it does not mean that a new player working towards his first skill goals is any less valuable than an older player _within that specialisation_.
In fact, you'll spend the first 3-4 months learning the basic game mechanics, so there's no great time loss in learning skills.
Morat
I believe by current calculations, it would take 9 or 10 years to fully max out every skill.
With new skills being added, a new player will never catch up in total skill points, but by focusing to one area (Gunnery for instance) he may catch up to even a veteran player in a much shorter time.
Now with 57.3% more flames!
That 5% extra on one thing the vet will have in getting that one skill from 4 to 5 will have taken him on average 10-20 whole days. In that time even a newbie with basic attributes can learn a TON of skills to get all sorts of other 5%s... The power curve is precisely that - a curve. And there is always attrition as people move on and new people join.
EVE isn't much of a solo-player game. To get ahead, join a good active Corp and become a useful member.
Fact is:
When you start out now in EVE you have to decide what you want to specialize in, in terms og race, weapons, defences etc. - if you try to be good at everything you'll end up being bad at everything and good at nothing.
The only advantage old players have over new players (when they are 6-7 months old) is a vast amount of knowlegde in game mechanics and they have a broader skillset.
The good thing about EVE is it's very balances so if you start a new character today and specialize in PVP skills for let's say Minmatar, you can easily beat a 2 year old player flying a gallente ship. It depends on fitting, tactic, tanking/damage, electronic warfare etc.
If you do it right, there's no problem catching up in terms of PVP.
Problem with eve for me seems to be it's slow pace. I have a hard time having fun with all the forced inactivity in the game.
Anyone suggest things to do that are more active besides endless combat? Mining puts me to sleep unless I'm doing it while watching TV.
And... frankly... if I'm actively watching TV while playing a video game then it's not much of a game to me
I expect my games to keep my attention, not be a side-show that I check every few minutes while watching a Football game (which is exactly what EVE is when I mine). Combat's ok but it's awful repetitive....
Are there any deep storylines that aren't just "Go kill this guy and come back"?
I guess I'm just looking for things to do that will keep me *involved* in the game rather than having it running in the background while I do other things. That's pretty much been the problem I've had every time I've played it. During beta it drove me nuts and through 2 free trials and my current 30 day purchase trial (bought the game finally)....
It's not like I haven't given the game enough time to grow on me... I just think I may be doing something wrong..... maybe I need a really active corp... if anyone can recommend one or wants to invite me to one I'm open to try it. I really want to love EVE... I'm a HUGE space sci-fi nut and the graphics blow me away every time I play.... I just can't stand that I'm so inactive.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Setting up any new character to learn fast is crucial to starting to play the game now. About 10 months ago I created a new character spent about a month training all the learning skills to level 5 and the advanced learning skills to level 4, even have one advanced learning skill at level 5, because I went on vacation and it was the only long skill I had to train at the time. Anyway, he's my mining alt and now has about 5mil sp less than my main because the fool trains so fast. It's sick, but well worth it. But honestly what new player is going to sit there for a month and train learning skills? When you first start out you want to have fun and fly all types of new ships.
This has to be one of the greatest misconceptions about EVE. Sorry for the long post coming but this subject comes up so often in EvE, it gets on my nearves a bit. If you take the time to read this post fully, then EvE may be the game for you. If you can't be bothered to read it all, goto the last paragraph, and forget about playing EvE.
Ok here we go...
If your starting EvE today you can be as good, or even better, than someone who has played for over a year, within 3 months at the very most, in your chosen field.
The most important thing new players to the game must understand is that EvE is unlike a "normal" MMO (DAoC, EQ, WoW, CoH etc). You should never try and "catch up" - it is not possible. What you should be doing is deciding something like "Ok, I want to be a good fighter pilot" - or whatver else you want to be - (Miner, Trader, Manufactuer, Pirate, etc etc) and focus on doing that. By only training the skills you need to be good at your chosen path, you will be as good as 80% of the players out there within 3 months, quite easily, as far as the skills are concerned. Experience of what to do with those skills, is another matter entirley. Not many MMO will let you be that good compared to those who have played a long time, within 3 months.
You should by this time be in a decent Corp as well, and then you will realise another important point about PvP in EvE...there isn't many occasions when your going 1v1. Three people who have played for 3 months and have focused on PvP can EASILY take out 1 "Vet" player who has been playing for over a year, even if that player has better skills in PvP and a better ship. this is the reality of PvP in EvE.
However to entertain those who are determined to compare PvP in Eve on a 1v1 basis :-
The older player may have 15million skill points, and you may only have 5million skillpoints, however as far as the fight is concerned if your using 4million of your skillpoints, and he is using 3.5million...as the rest of his are spread out into other areas, you can beat him. Even if he is using 6million against your 4 million, you can STILL beat him. He may have some slight advantages in certain areas, but who is the better pilot? All you have been doing is concentrating on PvP, he has been doing other things, you could easily be better than him even with less SP. I would not sya this is likely - don't get me wrong - but it does happen often enough, that you shouldn't go into a 1v1 thinking "I have no chance". And if in doubt...warp out of there...nothing is forcing you to stay in a fight that you think you have no chance of winning, with a little experience you can get away 90% of the time.
The same applies to every single other career you could possibly choose. You can be amongst the top 80% of the Traders out there within 1 month, as long as you take the time to focus on what you need to trade well (usually an industrial class ship) and learn how the market system works.
EvE is all about what you want to do, and going out and doing it. There are no "levels" as you would think of them. You need to stop thinking in these terms, they simply do not apply to EvE.
The only advantage an older player usually has over newer players, is that they can do various careers at will. If they are in need of extra cash they can stop PvP and go Mine or Trade for example quite well, in addition to being able to PvP.
These types of views (by the OP) are most often brought up by people who have little understanding of the game, how the game actually works, and all they want to do is jump in a ship and go kill someone. If this describes you, EvE is not the game for you.
It has an incredibly steep learning curve, you need to be very commited to the game in order just to learn the basics. It is, without any doubt, one of the most complex MMO available. It is so open, and so player driven, that you can never "beat the game". It never ends. This is what makes this game so incredibly GOOD. You will need at least 2 months of play to get into the game properly, and begin to understand it well. You will need to be patient. Very patient. However, after the initial steep learning curve, and you have some time in the game, it simply gets better and better. The more you play, the more you can do, and these options just get more, not less, as time goes by. Unlike most other MMO where you reach a point where you run out of things to do, so you either start a new character or quit.
This is nothing exclusive to EvE however, this applies to every single game out there. A level 10 fighter in DAoC won't be able to take on a lvl 50, for example, until he hits lvl 50 himself. That takes time. At least 6 months for your average player, sometimes over a year if you don't play that much. You could get 15 level 10 together in DAoC, and the level 50 would kill them all, without a scratch. In EvE if you get one player who has been playing for 2 YEARS, against 15 players of say 6 months, the 3 year old player is going to lose, no matter how many SP he has. All MMO require some time and commitment to get the most out of them, and EvE is no exception to this. Any MMO you choose to play, (and I have played many of them) your looking at 3 months to really get into them. The only difference with these others and EvE is that after 3 months your only really STARTING to get into it, whereas with the others you can be well on your way to "finishing".
The underling point of this entire post is really simple : if your the type of person looking for an MMO that you can log into, pickup very easily, go out and kill someone within a few days, and expect to be the best of the best within a week or two, this is not the game for you. It is definitly one for those of a more mature nature (Not that you have to be 30+, it's all about what type of person you are, not your age). Give it a try. They currently have free, no commitment, no credit card 14 day trials going. 14 days will let you see about 1% of the game, but by the end of it most will know if it is for them or not. Give it a try, and be sure to read the amazing wealth of info out there before you jump in. The tutorial has been revamped and is also very much worth doing. At the end of your first day or 2 you will have over 2million ISK if you do the tutorial and the 1st storyline, and sell the implant you get. And 2million is more than enough to get you going in whatever career you choose. Good luck.
Elnator - what you describe is exactly what happens in EvE - until you join a decent Corp. Solo is fine (some people prefer it, they like to go afk a lot and still be playing the game while doing other things) but EvE truly opens up when you join a decent corp, get involved in joint operations and even Alliance operations.
No different to most other MMO to be honest, DAoC which I played for 3 years can get very boring very fast until you join a decent guild and start going PvE and PvP with the guild. Even hooking up with one or two other players for the day will increase your enjoyment of any game, EvE included, tenfold. Most MMO revolve around group activities (hence MMO).
I really would recommend looking up the many Corps on the offical forums advertising that they are recruiting, checking the ones that interest you out, applying and going for it. It may take a day or two to get the right one for you, but it is time worth spending for sure. I have 2 accounts, one is solo (my miner/trader) that I run in the background making money. The other I use for PvP and corp activities. If you only use one account then be sure to get into a Corp asap, they will make the game really open up for you, and really help you along in your chosen path in EvE. Even mining gets to be fun when there are a few of you mining/hauling/protecting in dangerous areas....and profitable
Gap between new player and Veterans?
Nothing compared to other MMO's imo.
Take WoW for instance can a lvl 10 kill a lvl 60? NO
ITs the same as saying can someone with 500k SP kill someone with 30mill sp? Yes
Iv been PvPing since bout a mill sp and im regularly killing people with 20+mill sp.
9 or 10 years? I tried to set every skill to 5 in eve character manager I got to about 6000 days before it crashed. That was about 1/2 the skills. In case you don't feel like doing math 6000 days = 16.438 years.
I checked
Most of them have minimum requirements that your average noob can't even hope to meet. I did find a corp but it's very small, fortunately it's very active and my playtimes mesh 100% with theirs (except when I'm on in the morning on weekends, which kinda sucks but it's better than nothing).
Hopefully that'll help my enjoyment.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I didnt read the rest of the posts but...
I think the whole point of playing for a year is so that your a year ahead of the people just starting out. Wheres my X number of skill points that i can train 3 or 4 skills at once? The people who have played Eve for a long time are rewarded with the fact that they have more skills than everyone else, and can use new ships first. This is not like Wow where every idiot can reach end game in 2 weeks of gaming.
The steep learning curve and lack of endgame keeps the idiots out. Its what makes Eve online great. It has an educated and mature community, the idiots are filtered out at the beginning. The onyl time it matters how MUCH you play is when it comes to money. The rest of the time it mattrers how LONG you've been playing for. That is how a game should be run.
Well, in a way I agree with this and in another way I disagree.
It seems that your post is generally focused on PvP. Remember, not everybody focuses mainly or puts a lot of emphasis on Gunnery skills. If you're that concerned about it, then I suggest that you make a character with as high as possible Perception and Willpower attributes for Gunnery skills. And put a little more on Intelligence and Memory for Engineering (capacitor skills to keep everything running at once). So you could probably have near maxed out Gunnery skills in around 6-7 months if you trained your learning skills as well.
If you're new to the game, it isn't that hard to catch up because of the fact that older players are constantly retiring, playing less, making new characters etc.
Take me for example. I've had an account in this game for almost a year and a half. The first time I only played it for about 3 months and then quit because of money problems. Just recently did I come back, and now I have a 1 and a half year playtime, but only 1 and a half million skillpoints. This break has for instance made people that I introduced to the game when I was playing more advanced than me, regarding to skillpoints and wealth.
Not everyone may take breaks, retire, make new characters, play less or any of that stuff, but it's not exactly a majority.