From all the penalties upon dieing in a sandbox world full loot seem me the most logical and legitimate. It balances reward - penalty in the most fair and authentic fashion.
If it comes with a functioning alignement system (unlike DF's) it will make the game fun and fair.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
I think full loot is vital to the success of a good sandbox game. Without it, there is no point in anything. Sandbox games feel more real and alive when there is something to lose when you step out of a safe zone. It gets your heart beating and adrenaline flowing and actually makes you invest emotionally in everything you do with your character.
I'm not saying that this was done correctly in Darkfall. In my opinion, there needs to be a sufficiently large area that is safe for newer players to adventure in. EVE has high security space for instance where newer players can stay and play the game in relative safety. The greatest rewards and adventure lie in 0 sec space, but newer players don't have to venture there until they really feel ready. And they can always return to the safer areas when they feel like they need a break. I think this type of system would work really well in a fantasy sandbox...
I think the good old MMORPG 'Legend of Mir' got it right.
If you die you have a chance of dropping something then it allows players to keep items, fear for them and also gets people out hunting for players as well. I think for the majority of players when full loot is on they either stick everything in storage or items are just worthless.
Im really tired of reading the same old complaint about the community regarding full loot pvp games... but I would be as bad as those individuals if I didnt have a solution
so here we go
No doubt full loot sandboxes need the risk / reward because it brings realism into the game so...
No one size fits all - Example, A human killing an Elf should not be able to wear his armor due to elves being naturally taller and more slinder.. he could have it resized but it will require materials and you also run the risk of losing some of the natural armor properties (depending on the smiths skill)
Realistic weight penalties - Example, After a kill Elves shouldnt be able to lug around a full suit of heavy plate from an Ogre and certainly shouldnt be able to fight and swing a sword as well as he would if he wernt encumbered... this would result in "light loot" being taken which would be easy to replace
A working bounty system - This should apply mainly for your own race ... If you killed somebody in real life it seem like the whole world is after you .. Now I know they didnt have a CSI team back then but the devs need to put in a bounty system that works really well because I get it ... people dont like losing their stuff but it should be just as important a decision for ganker if he really wants to run the risk but being hunted for killing you
very easy to make this work and it would solve alot of problems I cant think of anything wrong with any of this....
A hybrid approach would be better. Full loot for all items carried (gold, looted items, crafting mats), items beeing worn take structural damage requiring repair. Items can only be repaired so much until they become useles. Has the added benefit of helping/encouraging crafting. As an alternative, have complete full-loot but if the difference in level/skill points between victim and attacker is bigger than a give value, no items drop...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
one of the biggest hurdles a full loot game has to overcome is the mindset about gear, that themeparks have instilled upon the gamer mentality. Gear is the ultimate goal in those games, and they just cant fathom playing a game where another player could steal that gear. They dont understand that in full loot games gear doesnt have near the importance (atleast it shouldnt).
But everything being said about the toxic community is 100% spot on. majority of gamers do not like what takes place in ffa games. It only takes a handfull of players on at any given time to ruin an entire server. If AA's outlaw systems fails to instill fear on the community then I fear for AA's popularity, because if becoming an outlaw has no real punishment then that toxic community will take over, and run the majority off.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
A hybrid approach would be better. Full loot for all items carried (gold, looted items, crafting mats), items beeing worn take structural damage requiring repair. Items can only be repaired so much until they become useles. Has the added benefit of helping/encouraging crafting.
I see the mod edited the OP's post, so must have been one of those I want full loot cause im gonna gank 20 levels below me and never fight anyone my own level and risk anything posts.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
I agree with the legend of mir loot system. Chance on death to drop a random item. Enough to make players respect dying without rage quiting. I like gear to be meaningful. In DF it doesn't matter what you lose because you have another twenty sets sitting in your bank. So full loot doesn't really add to the excitement/fear of dying. Maybe add a glyph you can add to favorite items to lessen the chance they drop. Say 1 out 10 deaths you drop an equipped item. Random roll to see which item drops.
People are so accustomed to WoW and it's version of "World PVP" that the idea of full loot is a frightening prospect. But people need to remember 2 things. In a sandbox, it is vital to a player driven economy that possessions deteriorate or are somehow lost. Otherwise you end up with in game economies like Anarchy Online where you have to open up a second account just to hold your money because the 7 billion credit cap per account isn't enough. In the end. Holding on to your items and possessions for ever is worse for you. Because it means that in game money value will continue to decline as you get more and more. This is why sinks are necessary for sandboxes to keep money flowing and cyclic.
The other factor is that the gear you have most likely won't be anything overly spectacular or irreplaceable. Yeah, that nice new epic sword of ultimate I-WINness you got from your latest raid success, is not going to be easy to replace when looted if in WoW, but in a sandbox, most of your gear is player crafted anyway and is readily replaced. Beyond that, if you have a gear deterioration system, like SWG, you'd have to replace it eventually anyway.
one of the biggest hurdles a full loot game has to overcome is the mindset about gear, that themeparks have instilled upon the gamer mentality. Gear is the ultimate goal in those games, and they just cant fathom playing a game where another player could steal that gear. They dont understand that in full loot games gear doesnt have near the importance (atleast it shouldnt).
But everything being said about the toxic community is 100% spot on. majority of gamers do not like what takes place in ffa games. It only takes a handfull of players on at any given time to ruin an entire server. If AA's outlaw systems fails to instill fear on the community then I fear for AA's popularity, because if becoming an outlaw has no real punishment then that toxic community will take over, and run the majority off.
You are spot on with the gear issue. WoW clones have brainwashed the community and they need to get over it. A game designed around full loot can function perfectly well. As for the community being toxic, I don't believe that for a second. I have played a lot of these types of games and the community is no different than in your standard mmorpg. People just get a bit more upset when they get killed. The fun part of these games is pvp SO PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DIE. The challenge in these games is from avoiding the tougher players and killing the weaker ones. Solo players aren't going to do well unless they know how to play solo in this kind of environment. You need to F*ing pay attention to the world around you and avoid high population areas. You also need to be able to run away a lot. Otherwise your best bet is to find a good guild. Not a crappy one with people you like to chat with, an actual good guild. A guild that can train it's members and protect them when it is really needed. Good guilds in these circumstances can have a very strong bond much unlike your PVE server guilds. If someone isn't willing to step up their game then of course this game won't be fun. Your standard mmorpg soloer will get his face crushed. Often. It is good to have these kind of games as there is real challenge. Fighting mobs is almost never challenging. When two well organized guilds go to war, then all hell breaks loose and you get some real fun.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
I don't buy that WoW brainwashed people into being attracted to epic gear. Funding unique and awesome items helps immersion. How cool was it when Bilbo Baggins found stinger in the troll caves. Pretty damn cool. In a lot of FFA sandbox games they focus too much on crafting imo. So everyone can be self sufficient to replace gear. It takes away the meaning of losing your stuff. Who cares I can make another set np. Chance on death to drop an item imo. The fear and caution is there to make players think, while still placing an emphasis on epic gear to achieve.
Hey everyone. I havent been as active lately, I wanted to share my two cents on this. Just so people know what my background is. (I believe thats important for any MMO'er cause certain MMO's define your play-style) I played Darkfall Online from beta to launch and so on, also given the wonderful opportunity to beta test ArcheAge in CBT4 with boon control and others. My full loot opinion on this topic, DF is the most exciting game when you have much to risk, and I've played on both sides of the vet and newb coin which is important to understand when trying to please a hardcore and casual market together.
ArcheAge does it right so far. They will have a sort of bounty system for players who kill and steal from other players. Your foot prints or blood is left behind your crime scene for X amount of minutes/hours, collectable by anyone. That is a mild consequence but more people are likely to jump you if you have a mid - high bounty level. As of now, the only droppable items are resource and material backpacks that carry your hard earned time on the farm. Also you technically lose gold each death as your nice armor takes hits on durability which are repairable but have a max life to ensure a strong market for crafters/merchants (you cannot repair quest given items). Also when you die, you lose time, time farming, time leveling, time trading, and or traveling.
The difference here though unlike Darkfall, is that your in it much faster from when you die. You can immediatly go back to what you were doing with a few buffs and a quick armor durability check. No gearing up, no grabbing the secondary bag of gear. Travel times would only put you back anywhere from seconds to 5 minutes(more at sea). Your guard is always up for these combined penatlies. Especially if your traveling at sea as the journeys can be pretty long.
In Darkfall, I spent 5 days with a friend as newbie characters grinding resources for a Schooner, only to have it lost in 5-10 minutes from a very good ambush. However, that kind of loss is not fun to experience and ArcheAge finds that balance of frustration vs risk. With so much more to do in ArcheAge, it will be keeping you very busy til at least the first 1st expansion and on if you include the free patch fixes and content they couldnt squeeze in on launch.
Darkfall gameplay is unmatched and It will always remain on my top 3 list of MMOs. However ArcheAge seems to have the perfect balance and freedom for the players to do what they please, with out such a harsh penalty from griefing. ArcheAge has a more laid back play for casual and hardcore gamers who enjoy a wide variety of features and activities to fulfill. Hope this helped shine some insight on the topic.
Also you technically lose gold each death as your nice armor takes hits on durability which are repairable but have a max life to ensure a strong market for crafters/merchants (you cannot repair quest given items). Also when you die, you lose time, time farming, time leveling, time trading, and or traveling.
wow, finally a game which does it right. absolutely fantastic news. sry if its a bit off topic but it seems that we finally have a game that actually encourages crafting instead of crafting being there just for the sake of it.
I see the mod edited the OP's post, so must have been one of those I want full loot cause im gonna gank 20 levels below me and never fight anyone my own level and risk anything posts.
No, it wasn´t because of that.
The video i used violated the "trolling rules", got a warning about this. ^^
one of the biggest hurdles a full loot game has to overcome is the mindset about gear, that themeparks have instilled upon the gamer mentality. Gear is the ultimate goal in those games, and they just cant fathom playing a game where another player could steal that gear. They dont understand that in full loot games gear doesnt have near the importance (atleast it shouldnt).
But everything being said about the toxic community is 100% spot on. majority of gamers do not like what takes place in ffa games. It only takes a handfull of players on at any given time to ruin an entire server. If AA's outlaw systems fails to instill fear on the community then I fear for AA's popularity, because if becoming an outlaw has no real punishment then that toxic community will take over, and run the majority off.
You are spot on with the gear issue. WoW clones have brainwashed the community and they need to get over it. A game designed around full loot can function perfectly well. As for the community being toxic, I don't believe that for a second. I have played a lot of these types of games and the community is no different than in your standard mmorpg. People just get a bit more upset when they get killed. The fun part of these games is pvp SO PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DIE. The challenge in these games is from avoiding the tougher players and killing the weaker ones. Solo players aren't going to do well unless they know how to play solo in this kind of environment. You need to F*ing pay attention to the world around you and avoid high population areas. You also need to be able to run away a lot. Otherwise your best bet is to find a good guild. Not a crappy one with people you like to chat with, an actual good guild. A guild that can train it's members and protect them when it is really needed. Good guilds in these circumstances can have a very strong bond much unlike your PVE server guilds. If someone isn't willing to step up their game then of course this game won't be fun. Your standard mmorpg soloer will get his face crushed. Often. It is good to have these kind of games as there is real challenge. Fighting mobs is almost never challenging. When two well organized guilds go to war, then all hell breaks loose and you get some real fun.
Being, "no different than in a standard mmorpg," does not mean that a game's community is not toxic. In a, "standard mmorpg," systems exist to limit the impact of community toxicity.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
I think full loot is vital to the success of a good sandbox game. Without it, there is no point in anything. Sandbox games feel more real and alive when there is something to lose when you step out of a safe zone. It gets your heart beating and adrenaline flowing and actually makes you invest emotionally in everything you do with your character.
I'm not saying that this was done correctly in Darkfall. In my opinion, there needs to be a sufficiently large area that is safe for newer players to adventure in. EVE has high security space for instance where newer players can stay and play the game in relative safety. The greatest rewards and adventure lie in 0 sec space, but newer players don't have to venture there until they really feel ready. And they can always return to the safer areas when they feel like they need a break. I think this type of system would work really well in a fantasy sandbox...
No point in anything? I agree that it creates a panic, but to say that it equates to the definition of what a sandbox game is, might be a little too much. AA has a lot for you to do. I would think that if the panic of me losing my loot was the only thing that made me feel atatched to the game, I would probably have to admit to myself that I really don't like all of the features of sandbox gaming.
Comments
From all the penalties upon dieing in a sandbox world full loot seem me the most logical and legitimate. It balances reward - penalty in the most fair and authentic fashion.
If it comes with a functioning alignement system (unlike DF's) it will make the game fun and fair.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Full Loot is just asking for Community exploit overrun.
I cant trust players of western culture in a FFA Full Loot game.
They will ruin gameplay for others. sad really. such a awesome potential game, ruined by the community. SMH
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I think full loot is vital to the success of a good sandbox game. Without it, there is no point in anything. Sandbox games feel more real and alive when there is something to lose when you step out of a safe zone. It gets your heart beating and adrenaline flowing and actually makes you invest emotionally in everything you do with your character.
I'm not saying that this was done correctly in Darkfall. In my opinion, there needs to be a sufficiently large area that is safe for newer players to adventure in. EVE has high security space for instance where newer players can stay and play the game in relative safety. The greatest rewards and adventure lie in 0 sec space, but newer players don't have to venture there until they really feel ready. And they can always return to the safer areas when they feel like they need a break. I think this type of system would work really well in a fantasy sandbox...
Thats gangsta.
You cant see it, but thats gangsta.
I think the good old MMORPG 'Legend of Mir' got it right.
If you die you have a chance of dropping something then it allows players to keep items, fear for them and also gets people out hunting for players as well. I think for the majority of players when full loot is on they either stick everything in storage or items are just worthless.
(\ /) ?
( . .)
c('')('')
In EVE you can insure your ship and assets, so they'd need something similar too if they go full loot.
Im really tired of reading the same old complaint about the community regarding full loot pvp games... but I would be as bad as those individuals if I didnt have a solution
so here we go
No doubt full loot sandboxes need the risk / reward because it brings realism into the game so...
No one size fits all - Example, A human killing an Elf should not be able to wear his armor due to elves being naturally taller and more slinder.. he could have it resized but it will require materials and you also run the risk of losing some of the natural armor properties (depending on the smiths skill)
Realistic weight penalties - Example, After a kill Elves shouldnt be able to lug around a full suit of heavy plate from an Ogre and certainly shouldnt be able to fight and swing a sword as well as he would if he wernt encumbered... this would result in "light loot" being taken which would be easy to replace
A working bounty system - This should apply mainly for your own race ... If you killed somebody in real life it seem like the whole world is after you .. Now I know they didnt have a CSI team back then but the devs need to put in a bounty system that works really well because I get it ... people dont like losing their stuff but it should be just as important a decision for ganker if he really wants to run the risk but being hunted for killing you
very easy to make this work and it would solve alot of problems I cant think of anything wrong with any of this....
A hybrid approach would be better. Full loot for all items carried (gold, looted items, crafting mats), items beeing worn take structural damage requiring repair. Items can only be repaired so much until they become useles. Has the added benefit of helping/encouraging crafting. As an alternative, have complete full-loot but if the difference in level/skill points between victim and attacker is bigger than a give value, no items drop...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
lol
Nice video
WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months
one of the biggest hurdles a full loot game has to overcome is the mindset about gear, that themeparks have instilled upon the gamer mentality. Gear is the ultimate goal in those games, and they just cant fathom playing a game where another player could steal that gear. They dont understand that in full loot games gear doesnt have near the importance (atleast it shouldnt).
But everything being said about the toxic community is 100% spot on. majority of gamers do not like what takes place in ffa games. It only takes a handfull of players on at any given time to ruin an entire server. If AA's outlaw systems fails to instill fear on the community then I fear for AA's popularity, because if becoming an outlaw has no real punishment then that toxic community will take over, and run the majority off.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Sounds like Shadowbanes loot model.
Where have all the "good" shills gone?
I see the mod edited the OP's post, so must have been one of those I want full loot cause im gonna gank 20 levels below me and never fight anyone my own level and risk anything posts.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
People are so accustomed to WoW and it's version of "World PVP" that the idea of full loot is a frightening prospect. But people need to remember 2 things. In a sandbox, it is vital to a player driven economy that possessions deteriorate or are somehow lost. Otherwise you end up with in game economies like Anarchy Online where you have to open up a second account just to hold your money because the 7 billion credit cap per account isn't enough. In the end. Holding on to your items and possessions for ever is worse for you. Because it means that in game money value will continue to decline as you get more and more. This is why sinks are necessary for sandboxes to keep money flowing and cyclic.
The other factor is that the gear you have most likely won't be anything overly spectacular or irreplaceable. Yeah, that nice new epic sword of ultimate I-WINness you got from your latest raid success, is not going to be easy to replace when looted if in WoW, but in a sandbox, most of your gear is player crafted anyway and is readily replaced. Beyond that, if you have a gear deterioration system, like SWG, you'd have to replace it eventually anyway.
You are spot on with the gear issue. WoW clones have brainwashed the community and they need to get over it. A game designed around full loot can function perfectly well. As for the community being toxic, I don't believe that for a second. I have played a lot of these types of games and the community is no different than in your standard mmorpg. People just get a bit more upset when they get killed. The fun part of these games is pvp SO PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DIE. The challenge in these games is from avoiding the tougher players and killing the weaker ones. Solo players aren't going to do well unless they know how to play solo in this kind of environment. You need to F*ing pay attention to the world around you and avoid high population areas. You also need to be able to run away a lot. Otherwise your best bet is to find a good guild. Not a crappy one with people you like to chat with, an actual good guild. A guild that can train it's members and protect them when it is really needed. Good guilds in these circumstances can have a very strong bond much unlike your PVE server guilds. If someone isn't willing to step up their game then of course this game won't be fun. Your standard mmorpg soloer will get his face crushed. Often. It is good to have these kind of games as there is real challenge. Fighting mobs is almost never challenging. When two well organized guilds go to war, then all hell breaks loose and you get some real fun.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Hey everyone. I havent been as active lately, I wanted to share my two cents on this. Just so people know what my background is. (I believe thats important for any MMO'er cause certain MMO's define your play-style) I played Darkfall Online from beta to launch and so on, also given the wonderful opportunity to beta test ArcheAge in CBT4 with boon control and others. My full loot opinion on this topic, DF is the most exciting game when you have much to risk, and I've played on both sides of the vet and newb coin which is important to understand when trying to please a hardcore and casual market together.
ArcheAge does it right so far. They will have a sort of bounty system for players who kill and steal from other players. Your foot prints or blood is left behind your crime scene for X amount of minutes/hours, collectable by anyone. That is a mild consequence but more people are likely to jump you if you have a mid - high bounty level. As of now, the only droppable items are resource and material backpacks that carry your hard earned time on the farm. Also you technically lose gold each death as your nice armor takes hits on durability which are repairable but have a max life to ensure a strong market for crafters/merchants (you cannot repair quest given items). Also when you die, you lose time, time farming, time leveling, time trading, and or traveling.
The difference here though unlike Darkfall, is that your in it much faster from when you die. You can immediatly go back to what you were doing with a few buffs and a quick armor durability check. No gearing up, no grabbing the secondary bag of gear. Travel times would only put you back anywhere from seconds to 5 minutes(more at sea). Your guard is always up for these combined penatlies. Especially if your traveling at sea as the journeys can be pretty long.
In Darkfall, I spent 5 days with a friend as newbie characters grinding resources for a Schooner, only to have it lost in 5-10 minutes from a very good ambush. However, that kind of loss is not fun to experience and ArcheAge finds that balance of frustration vs risk. With so much more to do in ArcheAge, it will be keeping you very busy til at least the first 1st expansion and on if you include the free patch fixes and content they couldnt squeeze in on launch.
Darkfall gameplay is unmatched and It will always remain on my top 3 list of MMOs. However ArcheAge seems to have the perfect balance and freedom for the players to do what they please, with out such a harsh penalty from griefing. ArcheAge has a more laid back play for casual and hardcore gamers who enjoy a wide variety of features and activities to fulfill. Hope this helped shine some insight on the topic.
wow, finally a game which does it right. absolutely fantastic news. sry if its a bit off topic but it seems that we finally have a game that actually encourages crafting instead of crafting being there just for the sake of it.
No, it wasn´t because of that.
The video i used violated the "trolling rules", got a warning about this. ^^
Being, "no different than in a standard mmorpg," does not mean that a game's community is not toxic. In a, "standard mmorpg," systems exist to limit the impact of community toxicity.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
No point in anything? I agree that it creates a panic, but to say that it equates to the definition of what a sandbox game is, might be a little too much. AA has a lot for you to do. I would think that if the panic of me losing my loot was the only thing that made me feel atatched to the game, I would probably have to admit to myself that I really don't like all of the features of sandbox gaming.