Quantcast

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Lockboxes are gambling

ShardWarriorShardWarrior Member Posts: 290

Original article on Massively.


If anyone tries to refute the above claim to you, then be prepared to listen to a chain of logic so twisted and bent that it's probably been run through a yoga class. The simple truth of all this is that you're plunking down a set amount of real-world money for a possibility of getting a reward you desire. It's gambling.




There is some hope as pointed out in the article. Blizzard had to kill Diablo III's RMT in South Korea. One can always hope the US and Europe will follow suit.

Comments

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Member RarePosts: 3,112

    Yup. So is buying Magic or Pokemon cards (sports cards, too for that matter), or putting your money in a gashapon machine.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • adam_noxadam_nox Member UncommonPosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by ShardWarrior

    Original article on Massively.

     


     

    If anyone tries to refute the above claim to you, then be prepared to listen to a chain of logic so twisted and bent that it's probably been run through a yoga class. The simple truth of all this is that you're plunking down a set amount of real-world money for a possibility of getting a reward you desire. It's gambling.

     


     


    There is some hope as pointed out in the article. Blizzard had to kill Diablo III's RMT in South Korea. One can always hope the US and Europe will follow suit.

    uhh, what does D3's rmah have to do with lockboxes or gambling? 

  • eyeswideopeneyeswideopen Member Posts: 2,414
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    Yup. So is buying Magic or Pokemon cards (sports cards, too for that matter), or putting your money in a gashapon machine.

    Being in an mmo makes it illegal if states/countries the game is in has laws against online gambling.

    SOE found this out, it's why if you read the fineprint on their online card games (Legends of Norrath, SWG, whatever ) you'll notice the games are not allowed in many U.S. states due to anti-gambling laws. the fact that the cards can be bought with REAL CASH,  and the fact that SOE card games give you a "CHANCE" of getting an item for the main game the card game is related to . The lockboxes fit the description of gambling, you buy a "key" with REAL CASH for a 'chance" to open the lockbox and get an item/prize.

     

    Originally posted by adam_nox
    Originally posted by ShardWarrior

    Original article on Massively.

     


     

    If anyone tries to refute the above claim to you, then be prepared to listen to a chain of logic so twisted and bent that it's probably been run through a yoga class. The simple truth of all this is that you're plunking down a set amount of real-world money for a possibility of getting a reward you desire. It's gambling.

     


     


    There is some hope as pointed out in the article. Blizzard had to kill Diablo III's RMT in South Korea. One can always hope the US and Europe will follow suit.

    uhh, what does D3's rmah have to do with lockboxes or gambling? 

    D3's RMH is going to have more problems than South Korea gambling laws. Basically, South Korea said it "may" violate laws simply because Blizzard tried to sneak the RMH part of the game past them, only showing them the rest of the game for the SK rating board.

    The real problem for D3, and more importantly its players, is going to be when the United States I.R.S. hits them hard for taxes on profit. And that IS coming.

    -Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
    -And on the 8th day, man created God.-

  • udonudon Member UncommonPosts: 1,803
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    Yup. So is buying Magic or Pokemon cards (sports cards, too for that matter), or putting your money in a gashapon machine.

    Those really are not gambling because the value of individual cards is the same to the manufacturer (the buyers have placed unique values on them however).  If someone sells a random pack of 10 cards valued at .10 each for $1 than the value is fixed even if the players have placed a "value" greater on some cards than others.

    STO says that the "value" of the lockboxes are always greater than the cost of the keys so in that regard they are not technically gambling.  However some items inside the lockboxes do have a greater value as set by the CStore than others so that might get them into trouble in some states.

    I am personally torn here.  As much as I hate state gambling laws on the whole I think I might hate the lockboxes and what they are doing to MMO's more.  I hope one or more states goes after these companies and sends a message that the boxes are not worth the hassle because nothing short of that is going to stop this trend from spreading across MMO's like a plague.

  • ShardWarriorShardWarrior Member Posts: 290



    Originally posted by adam_nox
    uhh, what does D3's rmah have to do with lockboxes or gambling? 

    Gah, sorry.  Bad editing on my part. I meant to include this quote from the article there.


    Well, if the game allows you to sell anything you find in the lockbox to other players, you've got a quick way to make a virtual buck with a real one. Say you buy a pack of in-game trading cards (SOE is famous for these) or a lockbox and find a very rare treasure. You can then sell the item you bought with real-world cash for in-game currency, and the RMT gods smile down on you.

    Sorry for that.

  • ShardWarriorShardWarrior Member Posts: 290
    Originally posted by udon

    I am personally torn here.  As much as I hate state gambling laws on the whole I think I might hate the lockboxes and what they are doing to MMO's more.  I hope one or more states goes after these companies and sends a message that the boxes are not worth the hassle because nothing short of that is going to stop this trend from spreading across MMO's like a plague.

    I wonder if companies would be allowed to keep the T ESRB rating if these are ruled to be gambling?

  • Darth_OsorDarth_Osor Member Posts: 1,089

    TBH I can't see how they get away with not telling you the odds on winning at least the top prize, when you have to spend real money to play.  Even sweepstakes in the US that aren't pay to play have to tell you the odds.

    Cryptic claims the average prize value is 160 cp and keys cost 100 cp or 90 cp if you buy a 10 pack.  However, we don't know what value they place on prizes 99% of the players consider worthless or near worthless, like single lobi crystals or green batteries, and unless every prize is worth at least 100 cp, I don't see how they can say it isn't gambling, since you're losing money in that case.

  • ShardWarriorShardWarrior Member Posts: 290
    Originally posted by Darth_Osor

    TBH I can't see how they get away with not telling you the odds on winning at least the top prize, when you have to spend real money to play. 

    Cryptic/PWE will claim that "technically" you do not have to pay real money.  A player can grind dilithium in STO to convert to C-Store points to buy keys OR single keys can be purchased on the exchange for EC.  The amount of time needed to do all this grinding is overly prohibitive of course, so players plunk down the real cash instead for the instant gratification.

  • apocolusterapocoluster Member UncommonPosts: 1,326

        I guess DCUO's lockboxes might kinda fall under this too..though a paying player unlocks for free..the froobs have to go buy a key..

     

       Dont really see the issue, still...as I said in the other post about lockboxes..but ill agree to disagree here.  Nobody MAKES me go to the cash shop for the keys. 

     

    *edit* 

     

    @Udon : hate to break it to you man, but I think the genie's out of the bottle on this

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • Darth_OsorDarth_Osor Member Posts: 1,089
    Originally posted by apocoluster

        I guess DCUO's lockboxes might kinda fall under this too..though a paying player unlocks for free..the froobs have to go buy a key..

     

       Dont really see the issue, still...as I said in the other post about lockboxes..but ill agree to disagree here.  Nobody MAKES me go to the cash shop for the keys. 

     

    *edit* 

     

    @Udon : hate to break it to you man, but I think the genie's out of the bottle on this

    I'd say the fact subbers open them for free makes a HUGE difference.  I've been playing STO for about a month very casually and I've probably gotten go kidding 200 lockboxes, if not more.

  • AG-VukAG-Vuk Member UncommonPosts: 823
    Originally posted by Darth_Osor

    TBH I can't see how they get away with not telling you the odds on winning at least the top prize, when you have to spend real money to play.  Even sweepstakes in the US that aren't pay to play have to tell you the odds.

    Cryptic claims the average prize value is 160 cp and keys cost 100 cp or 90 cp if you buy a 10 pack.  However, we don't know what value they place on prizes 99% of the players consider worthless or near worthless, like single lobi crystals or green batteries, and unless every prize is worth at least 100 cp, I don't see how they can say it isn't gambling, since you're losing money in that case.

    They get away with by one simple fact . No-one has bothered to call their States Attorney General. 50 States, 50 different standards. Only the States Attorney General can make the determination , but it requires a complaint being registered. Most people can't or won't be bothered to do this. I'm sure each individual state would love to get it's hands on the revenue generated by these items, not just the federal gov.  

    image
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,639
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    Yup. So is buying Magic or Pokemon cards (sports cards, too for that matter), or putting your money in a gashapon machine.

    Those really are not gambling because the value of individual cards is the same to the manufacturer (the buyers have placed unique values on them however).  If someone sells a random pack of 10 cards valued at .10 each for $1 than the value is fixed even if the players have placed a "value" greater on some cards than others.

    STO says that the "value" of the lockboxes are always greater than the cost of the keys so in that regard they are not technically gambling.  However some items inside the lockboxes do have a greater value as set by the CStore than others so that might get them into trouble in some states.

    I am personally torn here.  As much as I hate state gambling laws on the whole I think I might hate the lockboxes and what they are doing to MMO's more.  I hope one or more states goes after these companies and sends a message that the boxes are not worth the hassle because nothing short of that is going to stop this trend from spreading across MMO's like a plague.

    How is the value of the lockbox always greater than the value of the keys?  The keys are a constant cost 100/per or 90/per 10 pack.

    I don't really like the lockbox idea either, but I don't see how they're much different than the Yu-Gi-Oh cards my son buys.  Those packs advertise 1 "x" quality card (where x is typically a rare desirable card) or better and 14 more "y" quality or better cards.  There are different packs and different offerings that have better or lower value.

    I put the blame squarely on publishers trying for the gouge and players who have sent the "no pay to win" slogan their way.  I would much rather see most anything available in the game purchasable through the store and, conversely, everything in the store available via game play.  The thing I really hate about cash shop games I play is "store exclusives".  Turbine ruined LotRO for me with that store exclusive junk.  Turbine also has the gambling lock boxes in their game too.

    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • ShardWarriorShardWarrior Member Posts: 290
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I don't really like the lockbox idea either, but I don't see how they're much different than the Yu-Gi-Oh cards my son buys.  Those packs advertise 1 "x" quality card (where x is typically a rare desirable card) or better and 14 more "y" quality or better cards.  There are different packs and different offerings that have better or lower value.

    Lockboxes in STO have no guarantee on anything, such as the rare or desirable card.  A gold lockbox could yield a common battery.

  • udonudon Member UncommonPosts: 1,803
    Originally posted by ShardWarrior
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I don't really like the lockbox idea either, but I don't see how they're much different than the Yu-Gi-Oh cards my son buys.  Those packs advertise 1 "x" quality card (where x is typically a rare desirable card) or better and 14 more "y" quality or better cards.  There are different packs and different offerings that have better or lower value.

    Lockboxes in STO have no guarantee on anything, such as the rare or desirable card.  A gold lockbox could yield a common battery.

    If you can get something out of the lockboxes worth less than the cost of the keys (100cp) than it's clearly gambling.  If everything that you get out of the boxes is worth 100cp or more than it's a pretty grey area.  Of course their is nothing preventing Cryptic from valueing common batteries at 100cp each and saying it's not gambling even if the players wouldn't put near that value on them.  That's why collector cards are not gambling, you always get at least the face value of the cards out of the purchase.

    I have never opened a lockbox in STO as I got over 20 boxes my first 6 hours playing the game and it was clear to me this is nothing more than an attempt to suck as much cash out of players as they can.  I imagine many new ships are going to be introduced this way in the future as well.  Not all as that would be obvious but many of the "better" non faction ones will be.

Sign In or Register to comment.