Originally posted by jusomdude I also don't like how sandbox developers tend to equate sandbox to FFA PvP.
The reason why most developers put FFA PVP into their sandboxes is, that you're basically allowed to do whatever you want in a sandbox. The question is, how restrictive the developer wants to be in that regard.
Look at EvE, where the universe is seperated into three zones. If you don't want to do PvP then you can basically play the game without getting involved in PvP and I know lot's of players in EvE, who've never engaged in PvP during the years they've played the game.
It's only a question of the implementation, but as I see it, FFA PvP is an essential part of a sandbox.
@ OP:
Yeah, all themeparks I've played so far (WoW, AoC, RoM, SWTOR) I've not played for longer then some 3-6 month exactly for the reason that after this time there's no content left. And I've never come back once a new addon was released, as I couldn't stand to grind out the next tier of equipment. The only MMO I've played for an extended time (6 years) is EvE Online, as it didn't have levels and a premade story or dungeons. In EvE you could actually roleplay.
I'm seeing a lot of talk lately about people who are concerned about the lack of content, and/or lackluster replayability in these new games a few short months after they come out. The problem these developers are having is a simple one. It's called "theme park". The issue is that since they create their worlds to hand deliver an experience (theme park rides, quests, instances), they can't possibly give people enough content to make them happy.
Many, many people on this website have been talking smack about sandbox-type design for years now, while I and others have been advocates of it having experienced how amazing they can be. Star Wars Galaxies was a mess of a game from a technical and polish standpoint, yet most of the people who played it back in the day still proclaim their undying love for it. There are many reasons people loved this game, and I can't recall anyone ever complaining about lack of content. Indeed, SWG could have benefited greatly from some of today's questing standards, as long as they were added in addition to the sandbox play already existing.
I'm not saying all games should be sandboxes, or that they need to be sandboxes even to the limited extent SWG was one, but what I am saying is that these new games need to be designed with perpetual replayability in mind, and this must go beyond PvP. PvE replayability can be as easy as adding new explorable zones that do not require quests, or at least do not require nearly as many quests as a standard PvE zone. These 'freestyle' zones could be filled with beautiful terrain, interesting mobs, dungeons, camps and other fun things that people could attack whenever they feel like it. These realms could also potentially be opened up to PvP, making them something like the wild-west of the game world.
There is another aspect that is popping up more and more as well, and that is people complain that the worlds feel 'dead'. They feel dead because they are dead. They are little more than movie sets for you to walk past and not look too closely at. There are no real social features, nothing in there for the RP crowd, crafting and trade has been reduced to the equivelent of a Mc Donalds Happy Meal served through a Drive-Thru window (auction house). There is little or no player interaction required.
If you are wondering why these games are boring you, it's because they are the same thing, generally speaking, rehashed over and over again. What you want is something different, and that different is going to come from starting to take these games back in the direction of living, breathing virtual worlds rather than completely scripted and contrived experiences. The players need a chance to become their own content, as was true in SWG and other sandbox games, and they also need to be given the tools to forge their own adventure without having six "stories" to follow until they are bored to death with them. I want my own damned story, and all I want from the game developers is an interesting and interactive world, a hybrid of theme park and sandbox ideals that will give me a place to do it.
Again, I'm not saying full-on hardcore sandboxes are going to appeal to everyone, but what I am saying is that theme parks could greatly benefit from many of the principals of sandboxes. As long as game companies continue to crank out these cardboard worlds with no depth to them, you will continue to be bored with them shortly after purchasing the games.
What say you?
With all the "I'm not saying" you have going on there it doesn't seem like you are saying all that much. Have some guts and take a real stand.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Games like Mortal Online are the only hope for the genre. Anyone who hasn't tried it needs to go download the game and give it a shot. After trying it you will never want to go back to the same old themepark. The head of the company is a true visionary who is slowly but surely bringing that vision to life.
The faithful shall be rewarded.
I read this randomly and laughed.. Mortal Online is not a good example...
Skyrim is a good example of an RPG...
Maybe a new sandbox game coming out, but not Mortal Online.. Terrible, terrible game.
This is what I mean when I talk about people buying steak and complaining they did not get sushi. Skyrim is a single player game.
Show me another fantasy based, first person, sandbox MMORPG with skillbased combat, cooking, thivery, housing and soon to be the most advanced AI seen in an MMO. Please show me as I am waiting.
He's not talking trash about the game due to features, he's doing it because of the inept developers. I think the game has always had some sort of game breaking bugs since release. Not to mention the corrupt GMs.
So I take it that you cannot name a game like one I listed. OK thanks for playing, please enjoy a nice parting gift of "same old crappy theme park" on your way out.
Just because he can't name one, doesn't make MO good. Its like choosing between shot in the foot, knee to the groin or punched in the face. None of the choices are good, but one is certainly better than the other. Being "the best" doesn't make it good.
Its not the players, its the game. Its a horrible, horrible game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I'm seeing a lot of talk lately about people who are concerned about the lack of content, and/or lackluster replayability in these new games a few short months after they come out. The problem these developers are having is a simple one. It's called "theme park". The issue is that since they create their worlds to hand deliver an experience (theme park rides, quests, instances), they can't possibly give people enough content to make them happy.
Many, many people on this website have been talking smack about sandbox-type design for years now, while I and others have been advocates of it having experienced how amazing they can be. Star Wars Galaxies was a mess of a game from a technical and polish standpoint, yet most of the people who played it back in the day still proclaim their undying love for it. There are many reasons people loved this game, and I can't recall anyone ever complaining about lack of content. Indeed, SWG could have benefited greatly from some of today's questing standards, as long as they were added in addition to the sandbox play already existing.
I'm not saying all games should be sandboxes, or that they need to be sandboxes even to the limited extent SWG was one, but what I am saying is that these new games need to be designed with perpetual replayability in mind, and this must go beyond PvP. PvE replayability can be as easy as adding new explorable zones that do not require quests, or at least do not require nearly as many quests as a standard PvE zone. These 'freestyle' zones could be filled with beautiful terrain, interesting mobs, dungeons, camps and other fun things that people could attack whenever they feel like it. These realms could also potentially be opened up to PvP, making them something like the wild-west of the game world.
There is another aspect that is popping up more and more as well, and that is people complain that the worlds feel 'dead'. They feel dead because they are dead. They are little more than movie sets for you to walk past and not look too closely at. There are no real social features, nothing in there for the RP crowd, crafting and trade has been reduced to the equivelent of a Mc Donalds Happy Meal served through a Drive-Thru window (auction house). There is little or no player interaction required.
If you are wondering why these games are boring you, it's because they are the same thing, generally speaking, rehashed over and over again. What you want is something different, and that different is going to come from starting to take these games back in the direction of living, breathing virtual worlds rather than completely scripted and contrived experiences. The players need a chance to become their own content, as was true in SWG and other sandbox games, and they also need to be given the tools to forge their own adventure without having six "stories" to follow until they are bored to death with them. I want my own damned story, and all I want from the game developers is an interesting and interactive world, a hybrid of theme park and sandbox ideals that will give me a place to do it.
Again, I'm not saying full-on hardcore sandboxes are going to appeal to everyone, but what I am saying is that theme parks could greatly benefit from many of the principals of sandboxes. As long as game companies continue to crank out these cardboard worlds with no depth to them, you will continue to be bored with them shortly after purchasing the games.
What say you?
Place some the blame on Blizzard and WoW but the rest goes surely on the greedy corporations whose pupils turn to $$$. This genre is dieing because of those 2 issues. Its not like the old days when companies built "WORLDS" to live in, now we got every tom, dick and harry wanting to cash in on Blizzard's success.
its the reason why Ive been so vocally supportive of GW2 and here recently, TSW. Because here are two games created with the players, and their desire to live in a world instead of play a game. I know some people will say negative things about TSW but at least they are trying to not be a clone which cant be said for games like Rift or SWTOR so with what little of a voice as I have I will continue to speak out for the games who want to change the how "WoW does it".
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Part of the problem is that WoW is actually fun and has years of content built on. I can no longer stomach those type of games though long term.
I would like to see a game designed with community building design being the roots than layer theme park over that. What I mean is design how player housing, towns, nations, shops, community tools, and etc work first than layer over the story and theme parks on that. Have the space for it to happen and design in mind. The whole point of MMORPG's seems to be lost with communities gone and game play turning single player multiplayer game. How many vagabond hero games do we really need?
So how does your experience from the many, many people like me who played the game for years? Your experience does not equal everyone else's.
For one, his experiences represent a larger consensus. Old MMOs were not popular games. Todays MMOs are - thanks to the changes. Also, today you have a wide array of MMOs to choose from so you don't have to stick to one game for years. This is partly why Ultima Online is never, ever coming back. Players have options now and they don't have to put up with anything. You don't make a game massive with a collection of unpopular design decisions.
Is Mortal Online massive? -No it is not. I see more people on a TF2 server in ten minutes than in a day with MO.
It certainly doesn't help that "sandbox" is synonomous to piss poor production values and gameplay. They are a lucrative business for an indie developer because even if you did a shitty job, the competition is not much better. "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" is exactly how I would describe the sandbox market.
Gaming as a whole has grown since the release of SWG. Most of that growth has been only in the five years or so, and WoW helped fuel it. SWG wasn't for everyone, but to suggest it was garbage just because you and some others didn't like it, is ludicrous. There simply was not millions and millions of MMO gamers back then.
We're off subject anyway. The point is that these scripted and contrived theme parks that were popular for most of the last decade, are now considered boring. People are looking for more. I'm suggesting that building hyrbid MMO's that also have some more open word and sandbox features to go along with all the standard theme park elements would be a step in the right direction. Sandboxes are the very definition of replayable, because there is no end-goal.
Listen to all the people who are trying these brand new games such as Tera, GW2 and TSW. A lot of people are just burned out on the same old garbage, and while the changes offered by GW2 are very helpful, people are still wondering where the long term playability is after they burn through all the contrived content.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
1. I refuse to play linear as hell ,closed mmorpg worlds that are basically graphical lobbies framework to dungeon running. <-- this is boring
2. I also refuse to play underfinanced, understaffed ,slow-developed indie sandboxes. I do enjoy some single player / normal multiplayer indie games , but mmorpg's is diffrent scale and bit diffrent thing and indie productions just does not work. well EvE is an expception but I with that small succes rate I will not risk again , after dozens of horrible experiences like DFO , MO , Xsylon ,etc
3. I refuse to play small sandbox projects backed up by big studios that are cash-shopped (sandbox + cash shop brrrr..)
Hmm guess it is nothing exceptional that aside of few beta weekends and few ultra short tries of f2p games I do NOT play any mmorpg's atm since July 2011.
Future also does not look so bright. Only two games that have chance to be released in 2012 or 2013 have some chance of having good enough features and business model to be good enough to play them.
While 2012-2013 will be exceptionally 'rich' years in mmo's releases.
Oh well there are other things that mmorpg's in this world.
Other than Swtor I don't feel today's games are any more linear than many old games. Wow doesn't force me to go into any one area any more than EQ did. In WoW just like EQ I have a bunch of places to level designed around a certain level range. In both games I can go almost anywhere, although it maybe suicide at times. I don't play them as lobby games althought it's nice to be able to hook up from for a quick run at virtualy anytime.
I don't play games that I think are crap either, under-funded or not. I only play games I enjoy.
For me the future looks very bright. More games, more themepark, more sandbox, more hybrid, horror games...
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Other than Swtor I don't feel today's games are any more linear than many old games. s...
Never said that modern mmorpg themeparks are more linear than old themeparks. Some are some not, still are linear as hell and that's not good and I am tired of it.
I completely agree 100% on EVERY point that the OP has made. And I would LOVE if mmos were like that again.
The only problem is.. there's NO money in it, or very little. And thats that problem. The % of players that would enjoy a sandbox with an imersive world is completly shadowed by the Short term "give me a flashy game for 2 months before school starts" crowd.
All comes down to where the money is, and its just not in sandboxes.
The Genre went Main stream - and that ruined it.
Until you have some real world evidence, IE: a sandbox MMO developed by a studio with experience and financial backing; with all the polish that people would expect from a triple A themepark, and that isn't based almost soley around PVP or being a "hardcore" MMO, it's only speculation that it wouldn't work.
There is no MMO out there like that. By the time WoW released UO was already outdated. The remake was scrapped, most likely because EA saw the success of WoW and figured that it they wouldn't be able to compete, and at that time it was probably true.
If all the new Themeparks that release today, aren't able to sustain anymore subsciptions then EQ, DAoC, AC, SWG, or UO did when they were at thier primes, why would anyone assume that a sandbox MMO with the same level of budgetting and development as WoW not do any better? UO did just as well at it's peak as most every MMO on the market today, even when there were a few other options to go to.
The problem is that the people who make the games are thinking exactly like you. You only assume it won't work because somewere, at some point, the idea of it took on air of impossible. There is a smog of assumption that it's "not popular", even though single player sandbox style games are hugely popular, even though there's a constant outpouring of people asking for something more then the a-typical "tradition" themepark MMO, and most importantly even though it's NEVER been attempted correctly, in the modern MMO era.
Here's my prediction.
Blizzard is going to show everyone that thinks it's not possible that they are wrong. I'm betting on Titan to be a thempark/ sandbox hybrid, with action combat.
Oddly enough, it's korean and chinese developers that seem to be seeing that there is a market for sandbox MMO's. Dark and light is being remade by a chinese studio and the game looks like it's going to be incredibly massive. It's just unfortunate that the western audience has a tendency to turn there nose up to anything that isn't made outside the US or a small part of the EU.
Devs make games with the idea that it has the potential to draw in millions of players, and then the reality hits and it's still just a few hundred thousand player game. When they start developing with the mindset of pleasing a few hundred thousand instead of millions, the games will improve.
I dont see the problem with short games. It is not like there is a lack of games to play.
So we play till we consume the content of a game. So? There is always more content out there. One game cannot generate enough content for u to play long term, 100 games can.
Very few play only one game anyway.
Take diablo for example, it is a ultra fun games. I will have it as my main game for a while .. But i dont play it forever.
Originally posted by nariusseldon I dont see the problem with short games. It is not like there is a lack of games to play.
So we play till we consume the content of a game. So? There is always more content out there. One game cannot generate enough content for u to play long term, 100 games can.
Very few play only one game anyway.
Take diablo for example, it is a ultra fun games. I will have it as my main game for a while .. But i dont play it forever.
This (I think) is the reason you're not going to see huge numbers of subscribers in any single MMORPG. The players themselves are not looking to be playing a single game for a year, much less many years. The bulk of the market is made up of people with a month or three month expectation out of games, regardless of whether they are MMORPG or not. You could get those people into a sandbox game, but you're not going to keep them for a year or more. They just don't want to be there for a year or more.
** edit ** I do think the inclusion of some sandbox features, notably ones that increase the feeling of 'ownership' in a game would increase the average time played. In Fable 2, you could essentially adopt a town, and through your actions the town would prosper or degrade. You could own housing, rent it out to people, etc. This kind of thing increases the likelihood that someone will log in, if for no other reason than to check on their stuff. While you increase the average play time though, the bulk of people are going to leave and play something else after 3 months.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by MindTrigger I'm seeing a lot of talk lately about people who are concerned about the lack of content, and/or lackluster replayability in these new games a few short months after they come out. The problem these developers are having is a simple one. It's called "theme park". The issue is that since they create their worlds to hand deliver an experience (theme park rides, quests, instances), they can't possibly give people enough content to make them happy.Many, many people on this website have been talking smack about sandbox-type design for years now, while I and others have been advocates of it having experienced how amazing they can be. Star Wars Galaxies was a mess of a game from a technical and polish standpoint, yet most of the people who played it back in the day still proclaim their undying love for it. There are many reasons people loved this game, and I can't recall anyone ever complaining about lack of content. Indeed, SWG could have benefited greatly from some of today's questing standards, as long as they were added in addition to the sandbox play already existing.I'm not saying all games should be sandboxes, or that they need to be sandboxes even to the limited extent SWG was one, but what I am saying is that these new games need to be designed with perpetual replayability in mind, and this must go beyond PvP. PvE replayability can be as easy as adding new explorable zones that do not require quests, or at least do not require nearly as many quests as a standard PvE zone. These 'freestyle' zones could be filled with beautiful terrain, interesting mobs, dungeons, camps and other fun things that people could attack whenever they feel like it. These realms could also potentially be opened up to PvP, making them something like the wild-west of the game world.There is another aspect that is popping up more and more as well, and that is people complain that the worlds feel 'dead'. They feel dead because they are dead. They are little more than movie sets for you to walk past and not look too closely at. There are no real social features, nothing in there for the RP crowd, crafting and trade has been reduced to the equivelent of a Mc Donalds Happy Meal served through a Drive-Thru window (auction house). There is little or no player interaction required.If you are wondering why these games are boring you, it's because they are the same thing, generally speaking, rehashed over and over again. What you want is something different, and that different is going to come from starting to take these games back in the direction of living, breathing virtual worlds rather than completely scripted and contrived experiences. The players need a chance to become their own content, as was true in SWG and other sandbox games, and they also need to be given the tools to forge their own adventure without having six "stories" to follow until they are bored to death with them. I want my own damned story, and all I want from the game developers is an interesting and interactive world, a hybrid of theme park and sandbox ideals that will give me a place to do it.Again, I'm not saying full-on hardcore sandboxes are going to appeal to everyone, but what I am saying is that theme parks could greatly benefit from many of the principals of sandboxes. As long as game companies continue to crank out these cardboard worlds with no depth to them, you will continue to be bored with them shortly after purchasing the games.What say you?
I agree that people are burning through content and that player made content is an answer to that. But I also think there is more to it. It seems to me that regardless of the content, people are willing to put time into a game that has had time put into it. I appreciate a game that looks hand crafted. A game that is well thought out. One that I can say, "these guys really put their heart and soul into this game". I couldnt say that for games like AoC, WAR, Aion, STO. Basically a lot of mmos that came out from '06 to '09 felt rushed. And in turn, I never felt the need to invest a lot of time in them. I mean why should I dedicate a large chunk of my free time to an mmo that feels unfinished and pushed out the door? But games like Rift, GW2, and now TSW are turning a corner. We have devs that are pouring their heart and souls into their games once again. And they will reap the rewards because we acknowledge that and reciprocate the time invested with time played. Just my 2c
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
I agree with OP. Surely there are enough of us all wanting this for a AAA developer to even attempt making one?
I know there are games like Eve out there but space isn't my thing for an MMORPG setting and I would feel to far behind the current playerbase to even start.
Originally posted by nariusseldon I dont see the problem with short games. It is not like there is a lack of games to play.
So we play till we consume the content of a game. So? There is always more content out there. One game cannot generate enough content for u to play long term, 100 games can.
Very few play only one game anyway.
Take diablo for example, it is a ultra fun games. I will have it as my main game for a while .. But i dont play it forever.
This (I think) is the reason you're not going to see huge numbers of subscribers in any single MMORPG. The players themselves are not looking to be playing a single game for a year, much less many years. The bulk of the market is made up of people with a month or three month expectation out of games, regardless of whether they are MMORPG or not. You could get those people into a sandbox game, but you're not going to keep them for a year or more. They just don't want to be there for a year or more.
** edit ** I do think the inclusion of some sandbox features, notably ones that increase the feeling of 'ownership' in a game would increase the average time played. In Fable 2, you could essentially adopt a town, and through your actions the town would prosper or degrade. You could own housing, rent it out to people, etc. This kind of thing increases the likelihood that someone will log in, if for no other reason than to check on their stuff. While you increase the average play time though, the bulk of people are going to leave and play something else after 3 months.
The point is .. why do we need HIGHER time commitment? If people like short games, give them short games. It is not like developers are not making money on shorter games.
A SP game easily can last only 1-2 weeks. A 3-month game is already LONG .. there is no reason why dev needs to plan for games that people play for years.
And no one says a player cannot play game A for a while, left .. then come back after a few month when new content is online. Many play WOW like that. It is a fallacy trying to keep players in a single game forever.
I agree with OP. Surely there are enough of us all wanting this for a AAA developer to even attempt making one?
I know there are games like Eve out there but space isn't my thing for an MMORPG setting and I would feel to far behind the current playerbase to even start.
So yes I want this type of game too!
Archeage hopefully but not holding my breath
While not AAA in the literal sense, there's an Indie working on Embers of Caerus, that looks from the video like it is quite high end. Of course the penciled in release date isn't until 2016.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
The point is .. why do we need HIGHER time commitment? If people like short games, give them short games. It is not like developers are not making money on shorter games.
A SP game easily can last only 1-2 weeks. A 3-month game is already LONG .. there is no reason why dev needs to plan for games that people play for years.
And no one says a player cannot play game A for a while, left .. then come back after a few month when new content is online. Many play WOW like that. It is a fallacy trying to keep players in a single game forever.
Well made games can be popular for years. I so no reason why a developer shouldn't strive to make something that people enjoy for years. Games like that can give a developer and their company a priceless reputation and help them sell future products. Take a look at Mount and Blade: Warband, for example. It is still very popular despite being around 3 years old. The game doesn't have especially great graphics compared to newer games and was made by a very small Turkish company (Taleworlds). They did, however, create a melee combat system that is better than anything that came before or has been made since. I'll definitely check out any products made by taleworlds just because I know they can come up with some amazing and innovative concepts. When someone releases a game that takes me 5 hours to beat and then I am done, well then I never waste money on that company's products ever again. From Software's Dark Souls took me 85 hours to beat. That is 60 dollars well invested. 5 hours is NOT worth 60 dollars.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Or maybe it's just time to realize that the audience for MMORPG is no longer a bunch of people who want to play the same game for a year or more. Theme park or not, sandbox or not, 3 months will be the Mean Play Time and 6 months will the be Max Play Time for most players. The details will be different - # of initial sales, peak initial subscriptions, and steady state subscriptions will all be a bit different depending on a lot of different factors, but the general trend will continue because of the audience, not the games.
I don't think this is true of everyone at all, but I agree there is a segment out there who are uber-casual who don't care to stick around a game that long. However, more and more people are blowing through themepark content, and then bitching and moaning on forums like this as well as official forums, because they are already bored. THAT is a design problem, and it's a business problem from the perspective of trying to keep your customers around.
The only reason people see these games as 3-6 month experiences is because that is all they offer anyway. Look at EVE. Sure, you can point out that it is a niche game, but I believe if there was a high quality hybrid or full sandbox that was more traditional instead of space based, it would be a fairly large and long-term hit. Many players in EVE have been playing for years, and there is no theme park content to speak of.
You need to stop thinking so dichotomously. This isn't a black and white subject. I am talking to those people out there who are looking for a longer experience in their MMO games, not the A.D.D crowd who hop MMOs as often as they can. Besides, according to what I read around gaming forums, most people leave their current MMO game because they get bored, not because something better comes along.
That is a PLAYER problem. There is absolutely nothing in these games that forces people to race to max, kill all the content then piss about it. that is totally on the players.
And as far as sandboxes. I have seen people posting about EvE not having enough content... Don't the players make their own in that game?
In Eve...oh yes, they do. Player-owned space, player-controlled market, single shard universe, logistical challenges that make the content in every themepark MMO in existence look like a retarded version of Pong, alliances of players numbering in the thousands working together towards a single grand plan, fleet fights in numbers that dwarf other MMO server shards...the problem for some is that Eve's notorious learning cliff is very true when you try to get into those advanced aspects of the game. From what I've seen, the vast majority of the people complaining about lack of content did little more than light PvE and mining, which is perhaps 10% of what Eve has to offer. They didn't push themselves to go farther, when they try to they have an OMFGWTFTOOHARDRAGEQUIT moment.
I agree with OP. Surely there are enough of us all wanting this for a AAA developer to even attempt making one?
I know there are games like Eve out there but space isn't my thing for an MMORPG setting and I would feel to far behind the current playerbase to even start.
So yes I want this type of game too!
Archeage hopefully but not holding my breath
CCP has proved that they, at least, know what the f*ck they're doing when it comes to designing a sandbox. I'm a 4 year veteran of Eve and that's not going to stop anytime soon, but even for me spaceships can be a little tiring at times. I'm definitely keeping my eye out on World of Darkness, which will apparently have a lot of the game content capacity that Eve does. And I'm also looking forward to Dust 514.
At least one developer seems to have the balls to try a proper sandbox. Pity there aren't more of them.
I just don't last long in these cookie cutter MMOs. I used to love to fight for my faction, realm, guild, etc. I loved building communities, player towns, actual and meanigful guild alliances as well.
Getting a call to arms, and drop anything i was currently doing to help...
Nowadays it seems these "AAA' MMOs all we fight for is a new set of tokens or perhaps shoes. Its (typically) all about the individual. More gear more gear, more gear..
I'm obviously very PvP oriented, and some might consider " carebear" since i like playing "house" with player towns i can defend from other guilds, or have a crafting fair... So be it. Older MMOs had their problems no doubt, theres no rose colored glasses here.. But they also had more depth, in my opinion, things that kept me interested in my community, and how our online "world" was growing. Things that kept me paying a monthly fee.
Themepark, sandbox, I don't care, just give me something that has some actual fun in it, very subjective i know, but it just seems that developers forget to add this part to their games.. though they never forget the next tier of gear
Whats fun for me, is not neccasarily fun for you, i know..
The point is .. why do we need HIGHER time commitment? If people like short games, give them short games. It is not like developers are not making money on shorter games.
A SP game easily can last only 1-2 weeks. A 3-month game is already LONG .. there is no reason why dev needs to plan for games that people play for years.
And no one says a player cannot play game A for a while, left .. then come back after a few month when new content is online. Many play WOW like that. It is a fallacy trying to keep players in a single game forever.
We dont need them, just as we dont need any other game type, we want them, just look at the "outrage" about the notion that d3 is too short
I know that it might look different from the cozy spot of 10 mil wow players, but you always have to remember that wow had 2 mil more at a time when it offered a significantly longer journey, before the "ill be back with the next content patch" really went mainstream.
People are already ranting left and right that they are being cheated out of their money by endless repetition and that something "substantial" is rare, not only in mmos, but all genres.
Gaming as a whole has grown since the release of SWG. Most of that growth has been only in the five years or so, and WoW helped fuel it. SWG wasn't for everyone, but to suggest it was garbage just because you and some others didn't like it, is ludicrous. There simply was not millions and millions of MMO gamers back then.
We're off subject anyway. The point is that these scripted and contrived theme parks that were popular for most of the last decade, are now considered boring. People are looking for more. I'm suggesting that building hyrbid MMO's that also have some more open word and sandbox features to go along with all the standard theme park elements would be a step in the right direction. Sandboxes are the very definition of replayable, because there is no end-goal.
Listen to all the people who are trying these brand new games such as Tera, GW2 and TSW. A lot of people are just burned out on the same old garbage, and while the changes offered by GW2 are very helpful, people are still wondering where the long term playability is after they burn through all the contrived content.
Arenanet has no motive to make a gear treadmill or any other type of grind because they do not ask for a monthly fee. You buy the game, play it as long as you like and be done with it. It doesn't matter to them whether you play for one day or one year. Every game gets old - every single one.
Even if people are looking for something "more" who are you to say that sandbox have anything more? Get down from your high horse. Sandboxes are no better than any other game. They end just like every other game does: when you get bored.
I will say this though, if a sandbox is to seriously compete with the big names out there, it needs to be a "gamey" sandbox - not a simulation. Good gameplay and accessibility are the key. The fiction is secondary.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Sorry it cant be true that many ppl are looking just for a quick play for 3 months and jump on otherwise wow would be already dead. I know ppl that are subbed to wow for more than 5 years thats crazy and several otehrs in other old mmorpgs like lineage 2 or ff. the problem are the new mmoprgs not the ppl. Give them good mmorpgs and they gonna stay.
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The reason why most developers put FFA PVP into their sandboxes is, that you're basically allowed to do whatever you want in a sandbox. The question is, how restrictive the developer wants to be in that regard.
Look at EvE, where the universe is seperated into three zones. If you don't want to do PvP then you can basically play the game without getting involved in PvP and I know lot's of players in EvE, who've never engaged in PvP during the years they've played the game.
It's only a question of the implementation, but as I see it, FFA PvP is an essential part of a sandbox.
@ OP:
Yeah, all themeparks I've played so far (WoW, AoC, RoM, SWTOR) I've not played for longer then some 3-6 month exactly for the reason that after this time there's no content left. And I've never come back once a new addon was released, as I couldn't stand to grind out the next tier of equipment.
The only MMO I've played for an extended time (6 years) is EvE Online, as it didn't have levels and a premade story or dungeons. In EvE you could actually roleplay.
With all the "I'm not saying" you have going on there it doesn't seem like you are saying all that much. Have some guts and take a real stand.
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Just because he can't name one, doesn't make MO good. Its like choosing between shot in the foot, knee to the groin or punched in the face. None of the choices are good, but one is certainly better than the other. Being "the best" doesn't make it good.
Its not the players, its the game. Its a horrible, horrible game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Place some the blame on Blizzard and WoW but the rest goes surely on the greedy corporations whose pupils turn to $$$. This genre is dieing because of those 2 issues. Its not like the old days when companies built "WORLDS" to live in, now we got every tom, dick and harry wanting to cash in on Blizzard's success.
its the reason why Ive been so vocally supportive of GW2 and here recently, TSW. Because here are two games created with the players, and their desire to live in a world instead of play a game. I know some people will say negative things about TSW but at least they are trying to not be a clone which cant be said for games like Rift or SWTOR so with what little of a voice as I have I will continue to speak out for the games who want to change the how "WoW does it".
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Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Part of the problem is that WoW is actually fun and has years of content built on. I can no longer stomach those type of games though long term.
I would like to see a game designed with community building design being the roots than layer theme park over that. What I mean is design how player housing, towns, nations, shops, community tools, and etc work first than layer over the story and theme parks on that. Have the space for it to happen and design in mind. The whole point of MMORPG's seems to be lost with communities gone and game play turning single player multiplayer game. How many vagabond hero games do we really need?
Gaming as a whole has grown since the release of SWG. Most of that growth has been only in the five years or so, and WoW helped fuel it. SWG wasn't for everyone, but to suggest it was garbage just because you and some others didn't like it, is ludicrous. There simply was not millions and millions of MMO gamers back then.
We're off subject anyway. The point is that these scripted and contrived theme parks that were popular for most of the last decade, are now considered boring. People are looking for more. I'm suggesting that building hyrbid MMO's that also have some more open word and sandbox features to go along with all the standard theme park elements would be a step in the right direction. Sandboxes are the very definition of replayable, because there is no end-goal.
Listen to all the people who are trying these brand new games such as Tera, GW2 and TSW. A lot of people are just burned out on the same old garbage, and while the changes offered by GW2 are very helpful, people are still wondering where the long term playability is after they burn through all the contrived content.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Ok so.
1. I refuse to play linear as hell ,closed mmorpg worlds that are basically graphical lobbies framework to dungeon running. <-- this is boring
2. I also refuse to play underfinanced, understaffed ,slow-developed indie sandboxes. I do enjoy some single player / normal multiplayer indie games , but mmorpg's is diffrent scale and bit diffrent thing and indie productions just does not work. well EvE is an expception but I with that small succes rate I will not risk again , after dozens of horrible experiences like DFO , MO , Xsylon ,etc
3. I refuse to play small sandbox projects backed up by big studios that are cash-shopped (sandbox + cash shop brrrr..)
Hmm guess it is nothing exceptional that aside of few beta weekends and few ultra short tries of f2p games I do NOT play any mmorpg's atm since July 2011.
Future also does not look so bright. Only two games that have chance to be released in 2012 or 2013 have some chance of having good enough features and business model to be good enough to play them.
While 2012-2013 will be exceptionally 'rich' years in mmo's releases.
Oh well there are other things that mmorpg's in this world.
I guess this is where subjectivity comes in.
Other than Swtor I don't feel today's games are any more linear than many old games. Wow doesn't force me to go into any one area any more than EQ did. In WoW just like EQ I have a bunch of places to level designed around a certain level range. In both games I can go almost anywhere, although it maybe suicide at times. I don't play them as lobby games althought it's nice to be able to hook up from for a quick run at virtualy anytime.
I don't play games that I think are crap either, under-funded or not. I only play games I enjoy.
For me the future looks very bright. More games, more themepark, more sandbox, more hybrid, horror games...
Theme parks are easier to mass manufacture. There are business plans upon business plans for themeparks. They are a safe investments for investors.
Sandboxes, not so much....
That's why you do not see much of them. And if you do, it's always a self funded indy trying to pull it off. hehe
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Never said that modern mmorpg themeparks are more linear than old themeparks. Some are some not, still are linear as hell and that's not good and I am tired of it.
Until you have some real world evidence, IE: a sandbox MMO developed by a studio with experience and financial backing; with all the polish that people would expect from a triple A themepark, and that isn't based almost soley around PVP or being a "hardcore" MMO, it's only speculation that it wouldn't work.
There is no MMO out there like that. By the time WoW released UO was already outdated. The remake was scrapped, most likely because EA saw the success of WoW and figured that it they wouldn't be able to compete, and at that time it was probably true.
If all the new Themeparks that release today, aren't able to sustain anymore subsciptions then EQ, DAoC, AC, SWG, or UO did when they were at thier primes, why would anyone assume that a sandbox MMO with the same level of budgetting and development as WoW not do any better? UO did just as well at it's peak as most every MMO on the market today, even when there were a few other options to go to.
The problem is that the people who make the games are thinking exactly like you. You only assume it won't work because somewere, at some point, the idea of it took on air of impossible. There is a smog of assumption that it's "not popular", even though single player sandbox style games are hugely popular, even though there's a constant outpouring of people asking for something more then the a-typical "tradition" themepark MMO, and most importantly even though it's NEVER been attempted correctly, in the modern MMO era.
Here's my prediction.
Blizzard is going to show everyone that thinks it's not possible that they are wrong. I'm betting on Titan to be a thempark/ sandbox hybrid, with action combat.
Oddly enough, it's korean and chinese developers that seem to be seeing that there is a market for sandbox MMO's. Dark and light is being remade by a chinese studio and the game looks like it's going to be incredibly massive. It's just unfortunate that the western audience has a tendency to turn there nose up to anything that isn't made outside the US or a small part of the EU.
Devs make games with the idea that it has the potential to draw in millions of players, and then the reality hits and it's still just a few hundred thousand player game. When they start developing with the mindset of pleasing a few hundred thousand instead of millions, the games will improve.
So we play till we consume the content of a game. So? There is always more content out there. One game cannot generate enough content for u to play long term, 100 games can.
Very few play only one game anyway.
Take diablo for example, it is a ultra fun games. I will have it as my main game for a while .. But i dont play it forever.
This (I think) is the reason you're not going to see huge numbers of subscribers in any single MMORPG. The players themselves are not looking to be playing a single game for a year, much less many years. The bulk of the market is made up of people with a month or three month expectation out of games, regardless of whether they are MMORPG or not. You could get those people into a sandbox game, but you're not going to keep them for a year or more. They just don't want to be there for a year or more.
** edit **
I do think the inclusion of some sandbox features, notably ones that increase the feeling of 'ownership' in a game would increase the average time played. In Fable 2, you could essentially adopt a town, and through your actions the town would prosper or degrade. You could own housing, rent it out to people, etc. This kind of thing increases the likelihood that someone will log in, if for no other reason than to check on their stuff. While you increase the average play time though, the bulk of people are going to leave and play something else after 3 months.
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I agree with OP. Surely there are enough of us all wanting this for a AAA developer to even attempt making one?
I know there are games like Eve out there but space isn't my thing for an MMORPG setting and I would feel to far behind the current playerbase to even start.
So yes I want this type of game too!
Archeage hopefully but not holding my breath
The point is .. why do we need HIGHER time commitment? If people like short games, give them short games. It is not like developers are not making money on shorter games.
A SP game easily can last only 1-2 weeks. A 3-month game is already LONG .. there is no reason why dev needs to plan for games that people play for years.
And no one says a player cannot play game A for a while, left .. then come back after a few month when new content is online. Many play WOW like that. It is a fallacy trying to keep players in a single game forever.
While not AAA in the literal sense, there's an Indie working on Embers of Caerus, that looks from the video like it is quite high end. Of course the penciled in release date isn't until 2016.
Well made games can be popular for years. I so no reason why a developer shouldn't strive to make something that people enjoy for years. Games like that can give a developer and their company a priceless reputation and help them sell future products. Take a look at Mount and Blade: Warband, for example. It is still very popular despite being around 3 years old. The game doesn't have especially great graphics compared to newer games and was made by a very small Turkish company (Taleworlds). They did, however, create a melee combat system that is better than anything that came before or has been made since. I'll definitely check out any products made by taleworlds just because I know they can come up with some amazing and innovative concepts. When someone releases a game that takes me 5 hours to beat and then I am done, well then I never waste money on that company's products ever again. From Software's Dark Souls took me 85 hours to beat. That is 60 dollars well invested. 5 hours is NOT worth 60 dollars.
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I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
In Eve...oh yes, they do. Player-owned space, player-controlled market, single shard universe, logistical challenges that make the content in every themepark MMO in existence look like a retarded version of Pong, alliances of players numbering in the thousands working together towards a single grand plan, fleet fights in numbers that dwarf other MMO server shards...the problem for some is that Eve's notorious learning cliff is very true when you try to get into those advanced aspects of the game. From what I've seen, the vast majority of the people complaining about lack of content did little more than light PvE and mining, which is perhaps 10% of what Eve has to offer. They didn't push themselves to go farther, when they try to they have an OMFGWTFTOOHARDRAGEQUIT moment.
Where's the any key?
CCP has proved that they, at least, know what the f*ck they're doing when it comes to designing a sandbox. I'm a 4 year veteran of Eve and that's not going to stop anytime soon, but even for me spaceships can be a little tiring at times. I'm definitely keeping my eye out on World of Darkness, which will apparently have a lot of the game content capacity that Eve does. And I'm also looking forward to Dust 514.
At least one developer seems to have the balls to try a proper sandbox. Pity there aren't more of them.
Where's the any key?
I agree a lot with what the OP is saying.
I just don't last long in these cookie cutter MMOs. I used to love to fight for my faction, realm, guild, etc. I loved building communities, player towns, actual and meanigful guild alliances as well.
Getting a call to arms, and drop anything i was currently doing to help...
Nowadays it seems these "AAA' MMOs all we fight for is a new set of tokens or perhaps shoes. Its (typically) all about the individual. More gear more gear, more gear..
I'm obviously very PvP oriented, and some might consider " carebear" since i like playing "house" with player towns i can defend from other guilds, or have a crafting fair... So be it. Older MMOs had their problems no doubt, theres no rose colored glasses here.. But they also had more depth, in my opinion, things that kept me interested in my community, and how our online "world" was growing. Things that kept me paying a monthly fee.
Themepark, sandbox, I don't care, just give me something that has some actual fun in it, very subjective i know, but it just seems that developers forget to add this part to their games.. though they never forget the next tier of gear
Whats fun for me, is not neccasarily fun for you, i know..
We dont need them, just as we dont need any other game type, we want them, just look at the "outrage" about the notion that d3 is too short
I know that it might look different from the cozy spot of 10 mil wow players, but you always have to remember that wow had 2 mil more at a time when it offered a significantly longer journey, before the "ill be back with the next content patch" really went mainstream.
People are already ranting left and right that they are being cheated out of their money by endless repetition and that something "substantial" is rare, not only in mmos, but all genres.
Flame on!
Arenanet has no motive to make a gear treadmill or any other type of grind because they do not ask for a monthly fee. You buy the game, play it as long as you like and be done with it. It doesn't matter to them whether you play for one day or one year. Every game gets old - every single one.
Even if people are looking for something "more" who are you to say that sandbox have anything more? Get down from your high horse. Sandboxes are no better than any other game. They end just like every other game does: when you get bored.
I will say this though, if a sandbox is to seriously compete with the big names out there, it needs to be a "gamey" sandbox - not a simulation. Good gameplay and accessibility are the key. The fiction is secondary.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Sorry it cant be true that many ppl are looking just for a quick play for 3 months and jump on otherwise wow would be already dead. I know ppl that are subbed to wow for more than 5 years thats crazy and several otehrs in other old mmorpgs like lineage 2 or ff. the problem are the new mmoprgs not the ppl. Give them good mmorpgs and they gonna stay.
^^^Otomox^^^ is right,still waiting for that game to spend 5+ years in.spent 6.5 in EQ2 but need a new game now! right now!