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This article puts tears in my eyes...in a good way

24

Comments

  • El-HefeEl-Hefe Member UncommonPosts: 760

    Originally posted by Slampig

    Originally posted by cutthecrap


    Originally posted by Purgatus


    Originally posted by Puremallace

    Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo muchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hypeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Will it ever end. Nice read and in depth articles about the devs.

     

    There arrogance is really starting to piss me off though just so you know. The "we know better then everyone else" attitude is getting old and will bite them once the game is released.

    Really? Hype? This artilce is about the history of the company and the kind of people who work there. They are very pround of what they have done, but who wonldn't be. They barely talk about game features at all. What are they hypeing?

    I think the guy was more making a general observation of the overhyping as done by some hardcore GW2 fans.

    As for some statements that could objectively be regarded as much as hyping as well as (over?)confidence:

    "I think Guild Wars 2 is going to be the highest quality game ever released: - Mike O'Brien

    'Something that stood out for Randall Price was Guild Wars 1 passing five million sales. (It's now sold more than 6.5 million, making it one of the most successful PC games ever.) All of those fans, Price believes, are "frothing at the mouth for what we can do in the future".'

    "Any of us, we want to look back at our lives and go 'wow, we really shook up the industry, we really made a game that changed the way people thought about gaming.' We've had an opportunity to do that. ... We have an amazing future ahead of us."'

     

    Everyone who has ever bought and played GW is 'frothing at the mouth' for what ANet people can do? There have been tens of thousands of games over the years, with hundreds top-of-the-bill highest quality games among them. Yet GW2 will be the highest quality game ever released in 35 years of gaming?

    I can see comments like this in perspective with an amused smile, not the first time that devs make extreme statements out of overtly excited. But at the same time they can be considered hyping. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it has been regarded like that when less extreme statements were being made by other devs and game company representatives over the years.

    Nope, I still would kind of like my money back...

    i lol'd irl.

     

    Jon Peters came off pretty arrogant at Pax.  not so much his words,  but his body language.

    I've got the straight edge.

  • cutthecrapcutthecrap Member Posts: 600

    Originally posted by Unlight

    Did you notice when Mike O'Brien said that nothing would kill WoW except WoW?  I take that to mean that he doesn't see GW2 as a WoW-killer.  Given how arrogant you think ArenaNet is, what did you take it to mean?

    He's however also the same guy who said that "GW2 will be the highest quality game that the game industry has ever seen" and that they "don't intend to be number two this time. We certainly have our sights set on number one", which imo definitely can be considered arrogant talk.

    Not that I care if he's arrogant or overconfident, I see no problem with it. But saying that such statement aren't showings of arrogance is just blinding themselves purposely, selective perception merely because they're statements of a guy of a game or company someone favors.

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by cutthecrap

    Originally posted by Purgatus


    Originally posted by Puremallace

    Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo muchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hypeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Will it ever end. Nice read and in depth articles about the devs.

     

    There arrogance is really starting to piss me off though just so you know. The "we know better then everyone else" attitude is getting old and will bite them once the game is released.

    Really? Hype? This artilce is about the history of the company and the kind of people who work there. They are very pround of what they have done, but who wonldn't be. They barely talk about game features at all. What are they hypeing?

    I think the guy was more making a general observation of the overhyping as done by some hardcore GW2 fans.

    As for some statements that could objectively be regarded as much as hyping as well as (over?)confidence:

    "I think Guild Wars 2 is going to be the highest quality game ever released: - Mike O'Brien

    'Something that stood out for Randall Price was Guild Wars 1 passing five million sales. (It's now sold more than 6.5 million, making it one of the most successful PC games ever.) All of those fans, Price believes, are "frothing at the mouth for what we can do in the future".'

    "Any of us, we want to look back at our lives and go 'wow, we really shook up the industry, we really made a game that changed the way people thought about gaming.' We've had an opportunity to do that. ... We have an amazing future ahead of us."'

     

    Everyone who has ever bought and played GW is 'frothing at the mouth' for what ANet people can do? There have been tens of thousands of games over the years, with hundreds top-of-the-bill highest quality games among them. Yet GW2 will be the highest quality game ever released in 35 years of gaming?

    I can see comments like this in perspective with an amused smile, not the first time that devs make extreme statements out of overtly excited. But at the same time they can be considered hyping. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it has been regarded like that when less extreme statements were being made by other devs and game company representatives over the years.

    All devs hype their games. It's nothing new and I'm honestly suprised that people still have an issue with it. It's more akin to an actor or a director going on a late night talk show and claiming that his next movie will be the bestest evar! Most of us realize that it's nothing more than a cheap marketing tactic and don't take it seriously. But of course if you wanted to nitpick...

    At least ANet is very open about their game and the NDA is virtually gone months before release and will be completely dropped by the 27th. So yea, they are hyping their game but at the same time they aren't keeping many secrets about it.

    image

  • PuremallacePuremallace Member Posts: 1,856

    Originally posted by evolver1972

    Originally posted by Eir_S

    It's Puremallace, I don't know why anyone still takes his bait.

    ^^This times 100.

     

    The least he could do is get his facts straight.

    What facts do I need to get straight? The last update to Guild Wars. What did it do some new quest and I think a new zone and items added to the cash shop. Where is the genre changing stuff there?

     

    What has this dev done to impress me? As far as I can tell outside of the pvp changes they have put into the genre they have been flat out lazy on the pve side. Hell on the pvp I consider them lazy because they COMPLETELY homogenized the classes because Trinity is too hard to balance and completely killed world pvp.

     

     

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,453

    Originally posted by fiontar

    An interesting quote on the amount of content in the game:

    As with Daniel Dociu, I ask James Ackley if he can begin to describe the amount of sound in Guild Wars 2. He came from F.E.A.R. developer Monolith Productions, where games were expected to last someone around 20 to 50 hours. ArenaNet expects "three hundred to a thousand hours or something for this game, for a lot of people to play", Ackley tells me. "It took me probably a year and a half before I realised how big it really was, and how much work there really was to do."

    People shouldn't fear that they won't get their $60 worth from GW2.

          It all depends on what there is to do in those 300-1000 hours as to whether it is worth the money or not....... We could make a game with one battleground and say it has infinite hours because you could play the same thing over and over, it doesnt mean anything.....Lets see what the game has to offer, get alot more information and gameplay from it, then start to come to a more informed decision.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    "we want to be number one"... uhgg.. here we go again.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • cutthecrapcutthecrap Member Posts: 600

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by cutthecrap


    Originally posted by Purgatus


    Originally posted by Puremallace

    Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo muchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hypeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Will it ever end. Nice read and in depth articles about the devs.

     

    There arrogance is really starting to piss me off though just so you know. The "we know better then everyone else" attitude is getting old and will bite them once the game is released.

    Really? Hype? This artilce is about the history of the company and the kind of people who work there. They are very pround of what they have done, but who wonldn't be. They barely talk about game features at all. What are they hypeing?

    I think the guy was more making a general observation of the overhyping as done by some hardcore GW2 fans.

    As for some statements that could objectively be regarded as much as hyping as well as (over?)confidence:

    "I think Guild Wars 2 is going to be the highest quality game ever released: - Mike O'Brien

    'Something that stood out for Randall Price was Guild Wars 1 passing five million sales. (It's now sold more than 6.5 million, making it one of the most successful PC games ever.) All of those fans, Price believes, are "frothing at the mouth for what we can do in the future".'

    "Any of us, we want to look back at our lives and go 'wow, we really shook up the industry, we really made a game that changed the way people thought about gaming.' We've had an opportunity to do that. ... We have an amazing future ahead of us."'

     

    Everyone who has ever bought and played GW is 'frothing at the mouth' for what ANet people can do? There have been tens of thousands of games over the years, with hundreds top-of-the-bill highest quality games among them. Yet GW2 will be the highest quality game ever released in 35 years of gaming?

    I can see comments like this in perspective with an amused smile, not the first time that devs make extreme statements out of overtly excited. But at the same time they can be considered hyping. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it has been regarded like that when less extreme statements were being made by other devs and game company representatives over the years.

    All devs hype their games. It's nothing new and I'm honestly suprised that people still have an issue with it. It's more akin to an actor or a director going on a late night talk show and claiming that his next movie will be the bestest evar! Most of us realize that it's nothing more than a cheap marketing tactic and don't take it seriously. But of course if you wanted to nitpick...

    Shrug. If you yourself really want to nitpick about it: I don't see anything wrong in pointing out what could be considered arrogant or hyping, regardless whatever MMO it is. If some people dislike presenting such arguments whenever it's about a game they're getting all warm and fuzzy about (yet do exactly the same whenever it's about a game they don't like image), well, that's on them I guess.

    I completely agree with you that all devs hype their games to a lesser or larger degree, it's obvious from this thread and other ones that not all GW2 fans see it like we do, and they don't regard what ANet devs state as hyping or arrogance/overconfidence/overexcitement/whatever. Which seems a case of selective bias to me. Me, I don't really care however they say it as long as I get the game.

     

  • cutthecrapcutthecrap Member Posts: 600

    On topic: damn, those ANet employees sure have a nice working place and environment, definitely something that most if not all of us can be jealous of, I certainly am image

    Sounds like a dream come true, working there, especially when you love games.

  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Member UncommonPosts: 1,379

    Originally posted by cutthecrap

    Originally posted by Unlight



    Did you notice when Mike O'Brien said that nothing would kill WoW except WoW?  I take that to mean that he doesn't see GW2 as a WoW-killer.  Given how arrogant you think ArenaNet is, what did you take it to mean?

    He's however also the same guy who said that "GW2 will be the highest quality game that the game industry has ever seen" and that they "don't intend to be number two this time. We certainly have our sights set on number one", which imo definitely can be considered arrogant talk.

    Not that I care if he's arrogant or overconfident, I see no problem with it. But saying that such statement aren't showings of arrogance is just blinding themselves purposely, selective perception merely because they're statements of a guy of a game or company someone favors.

     Because you're supposed to answer interviews with things like "We hope to be second best in the MMO genre since this is really only our first attempt at a less than full fledged MMO" and "We want to release a game with enough quality that the fans feel they got their moneys worth, but not what we feel will be the best quality we could put out" and finish with "We can settle for being somewhere in the vicinity of the top five, if not games at least tob five mmo's." I read confidence when I see devs talk and they don't bash other companies. You may see cockiness and it irritates you but that's probably because you don't support them, I don't know, or their game to begin with so it will cause you to read into things differently than I would.Go figure.

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • KuppaKuppa Member UncommonPosts: 3,292

    Originally posted by Puremallace

    Originally posted by evolver1972


    Originally posted by Eir_S

    It's Puremallace, I don't know why anyone still takes his bait.

    ^^This times 100.

     

    The least he could do is get his facts straight.

    What facts do I need to get straight? The last update to Guild Wars. What did it do some new quest and I think a new zone and items added to the cash shop. Where is the genre changing stuff there?

     

    What has this dev done to impress me? As far as I can tell outside of the pvp changes they have put into the genre they have been flat out lazy on the pve side. Hell on the pvp I consider them lazy because they COMPLETELY homogenized the classes because Trinity is too hard to balance and completely killed world pvp.

     

     

    Never seen you that pissed off. image

    image


    image

  • Skarecrow7Skarecrow7 Member UncommonPosts: 339

    I know, right? I mean, I get so angry with the football team I follow when they start talking crap about wanting to make it to the superbowl. I mean, come on guys, learn to settle!  And with the draft this weekend, they want to get a furture PRO-BOWLER?!?! The arrogance just makes me sick. 

    These people that strive to be the best, what is their deal? I mean, the interview should be "We're not worthy, please only buy our game if you have the extra money and time, we are going to middle of the pack, nothing special. You might like it" I mean, how can you have any pudding if you dont eat your meat!

    image

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by FlawSGI

     

     Because you're supposed to answer interviews with things like "We hope to be second best in the MMO genre since this is really only our first attempt at a less than full fledged MMO" and "We want to release a game with enough quality that the fans feel they got their moneys worth, but not what we feel will be the best quality we could put out" and finish with "We can settle for being somewhere in the vicinity of the top five, if not games at least tob five mmo's." I read confidence when I see devs talk and they don't bash other companies. You may see cockiness and it irritates you but that's probably because you don't suppor tthem or their game to begin with so it will cause you to read into things differently than I would.Go figure.

    There's a difference between having confidence and setting yourself up for failure. "We want to be number one" says that is their goal, if they're not, we'll hear over and over again how they've failed. It's a viscous cycle they're setting themselves up for here.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • cutthecrapcutthecrap Member Posts: 600

    Originally posted by FlawSGI

    Originally posted by cutthecrap


    Originally posted by Unlight



    Did you notice when Mike O'Brien said that nothing would kill WoW except WoW?  I take that to mean that he doesn't see GW2 as a WoW-killer.  Given how arrogant you think ArenaNet is, what did you take it to mean?

    He's however also the same guy who said that "GW2 will be the highest quality game that the game industry has ever seen" and that they "don't intend to be number two this time. We certainly have our sights set on number one", which imo definitely can be considered arrogant talk.

    Not that I care if he's arrogant or overconfident, I see no problem with it. But saying that such statement aren't showings of arrogance is just blinding themselves purposely, selective perception merely because they're statements of a guy of a game or company someone favors.

     Because you're supposed to answer interviews with things like "We hope to be second best in the MMO genre since this is really only our first attempt at a less than full fledged MMO" and "We want to release a game with enough quality that the fans feel they got their moneys worth, but not what we feel will be the best quality we could put out" and finish with "We can settle for being somewhere in the vicinity of the top five, if not games at least tob five mmo's." I read confidence when I see devs talk and they don't bash other companies. You may see cockiness and it irritates you but that's probably because you don't suppor tthem or their game to begin with so it will cause you to read into things differently than I would.Go figure.

    Read my posts image. The only irritation I might have comes from fan(boi)s who out of spite or allergy of hearing differing viewpoints try to put arguments and thoughts into my mouth that I never said or thought. Obviously they're making fools of themselves, but I don't think they'll ever see it like that. But to reply on your comments: nope, I support ANet, have done it since I played the earliest beta of GW in 2004, and have been looking forward to GW2 since its earliest announcements. Yep, those statements they made are cockiness, which I have no problem with and can accept from them as well as from devs from other (MMO) companies - that's more unbiased and objective than I think most posters on this site can manage to do.

    Oh, and yes, there are many, many ways of promoting your game equally effective without resorting to epeening and cocksize measuring statements. Not that I mind the regular cocksize measuring hyperboles that's been done all the time in media, in game industry and otherwise, just saying that it isn't the only or even best way of saying things.

    Meh, this specific discussion is getting boring. Just too lame, I'm out of it  image

     

  • KuppaKuppa Member UncommonPosts: 3,292

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by FlawSGI


     

     Because you're supposed to answer interviews with things like "We hope to be second best in the MMO genre since this is really only our first attempt at a less than full fledged MMO" and "We want to release a game with enough quality that the fans feel they got their moneys worth, but not what we feel will be the best quality we could put out" and finish with "We can settle for being somewhere in the vicinity of the top five, if not games at least tob five mmo's." I read confidence when I see devs talk and they don't bash other companies. You may see cockiness and it irritates you but that's probably because you don't suppor tthem or their game to begin with so it will cause you to read into things differently than I would.Go figure.

    There's a difference between having confidence and setting yourself up for failure. "We want to be number one" says that is their goal, if they're not, we'll hear over and over again how they've failed. It's a viscous cycle they're setting themselves up for here.

    I think that every gaming company that has the potential should aim to be number one. Its actually good to hear that from them. Even if they fail, that sort of view is not for us to judge but for them to have a clear goal. You don't see the Lakers saying they wanna end up just in the playoffs image

    image


    image

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    Originally posted by cutthecrap

    On topic: damn, those ANet employees sure have a nice working place and environment, definitely something that most if not all of us can be jealous of, I certainly am image

    Sounds like a dream come true, working there, especially when you love games.

    Definitely--well, at least until the drama llamas get done.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Zookz1Zookz1 Member Posts: 629

    There's no possible way this game is going to meet expectations. I haven't seen this much hype for a game in a long time; even SWTOR didn't have hype like this, and it was probably the most anticipated MMO in the last five years. These forums are going to become a total shitstorm during the first few weeks, and I can't wait.

  • ComfyChairComfyChair Member Posts: 758

    It's a good job the hype for GW2 isn't about a WoW-clone then ;)

    P.S. After the beta weekend, the whiners will be drowned out by the rabid masses telling everyone to play the game. Guarentee it. If you think this is hype, you've seen nothing yet. Wait until they've played it.

     

     

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by Distopia

    There's a difference between having confidence and setting yourself up for failure. "We want to be number one" says that is their goal, if they're not, we'll hear over and over again how they've failed. It's a viscous cycle they're setting themselves up for here.

    I think that every gaming company that has the potential should aim to be number one. Its actually good to hear that from them. Even if they fail, that sort of view is not for us to judge but for them to have a clear goal. You don't see the Lakers saying they wanna end up just in the playoffs image

    This is a videogame company, not a sports team. The only thing being number one does is bring in more money, they don't "win" anything, and that in no way is good for us MMO gamers. Wanting to be number one in this field says they care most about the lowest common denominator. Games are typically better when they cater to a specific thing, not when they try and cater to all things.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Skarecrow7Skarecrow7 Member UncommonPosts: 339

    Originally posted by Zookz1

    There's no possible way this game is going to meet expectations. I haven't seen this much hype for a game in a long time; even SWTOR didn't have hype like this, and it was probably the most anticipated MMO in the last five years. These forums are going to become a total shitstorm during the first few weeks, and I can't wait.

    And if t this "shitstorm" doesnt happen, will you be disapointed? Will you and others of the same opinion come here and start this "shitstorm" no matter what?

    This is what I find sad, people acutally excited over the idea that something will fail. People put their heart and soul into this and we got people on here rooting for it to crash. 

    image

  • kishekishe Member UncommonPosts: 2,012

    People are very optimistic for GW2 considering its made by Arenanet which is an NCSOFT studio.

     

     

  • KuppaKuppa Member UncommonPosts: 3,292

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by Kuppa


    Originally posted by Distopia



    There's a difference between having confidence and setting yourself up for failure. "We want to be number one" says that is their goal, if they're not, we'll hear over and over again how they've failed. It's a viscous cycle they're setting themselves up for here.

    I think that every gaming company that has the potential should aim to be number one. Its actually good to hear that from them. Even if they fail, that sort of view is not for us to judge but for them to have a clear goal. You don't see the Lakers saying they wanna end up just in the playoffs image

    This is a videogame company, not a sports team. The only thing being number one does is bring in more money, they don't "win" anything, and that in no way is good for us MMO gamers. Wanting to be number one in this field says they care most about the lowest common denominator. Games are typically better when they cater to a specific thing, not when they try and cater to all things.

    So you are telling me that is not a morale boost to the company and that sport teams don't win more money with a championship.....ok...back to reality. They are definately not aiming for #1 gaming company period, its obviously in the MMO market and that DOES affect us the gamers in a good way since if they want that they need to perform by giving us something that is actually good image

    image


    image

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    O

    This is a videogame company, not a sports team. The only thing being number one does is bring in more money, they don't "win" anything, and that in no way is good for us MMO gamers. Wanting to be number one in this field says they care most about the lowest common denominator. Games are typically better when they cater to a specific thing, not when they try and cater to all things.

    So you are telling me that is not a morale boost to the company and that sport teams don't win more money with a championship.....ok...back to reality. They are definately not aiming for #1 gaming company period, its obviously in the MMO market and that DOES affect us the gamers in a good way since if they want that they need to perform by giving us something that is actually good image

    I'm telling you I don't like the sound of that, and nothing more.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Bad.dogBad.dog Member UncommonPosts: 1,131

    Originally posted by Zookz1

    There's no possible way this game is going to meet expectations. I haven't seen this much hype for a game in a long time; even SWTOR didn't have hype like this, and it was probably the most anticipated MMO in the last five years. These forums are going to become a total shitstorm during the first few weeks, and I can't wait.

    Really?.....I thought the only reason anyone played SWTOR was because they had nothing to play untill GW2 arrived . I know in my case I was bored with RIFT and hoped that SWTOR would give me something to do besides reading forums , and daydreaming about 3 sided pvp and future adventures . To each their own I guess , I'd rather see the good then sit with my head stuck up my ass hoping everyone else has a failed experience

  • SereliskSerelisk Member Posts: 836

    Originally posted by Puremallace

    Originally posted by evolver1972


    Originally posted by Eir_S

    It's Puremallace, I don't know why anyone still takes his bait.

    ^^This times 100.

     

    The least he could do is get his facts straight.

    What facts do I need to get straight? The last update to Guild Wars. What did it do some new quest and I think a new zone and items added to the cash shop. Where is the genre changing stuff there?

     

    What has this dev done to impress me? As far as I can tell outside of the pvp changes they have put into the genre they have been flat out lazy on the pve side. Hell on the pvp I consider them lazy because they COMPLETELY homogenized the classes because Trinity is too hard to balance and completely killed world pvp.

     

     

    "Now 2 years of delays on a game that was promised in 2011 Summer we are hyped again. WHERE THE HELL IS THE OUTRAGE OVER no open beta in December of 2011 like they touted?"

    ArenaNet has never given a release date(excluding a beta test in late 2008, which they renounced). It's always been when it's ready. They also never promised an open beta in December. They said closed betas would begin by the end of 2011, which they did. There was a closed beta test in the middle of December 2011.

     

    Why are you even talking about Guild Wars 1? You clearly neither follow nor care for it. Aside from that being false information, highlighting your unwillingness to actually back up the things you say with some semblance of fact, Guild Wars 1 is not Guild Wars 2, so whatever disembodied point you're attempting to make is moot.

     

    None of us actually care if what they're doing impresses you. None of us are out to convert or antagonize you because of your opinion. Whatever persecution complex you're suffering from is entirely self inflicted.

     

     

     

  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Member UncommonPosts: 1,379

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by Kuppa


    Originally posted by Distopia



    There's a difference between having confidence and setting yourself up for failure. "We want to be number one" says that is their goal, if they're not, we'll hear over and over again how they've failed. It's a viscous cycle they're setting themselves up for here.

    I think that every gaming company that has the potential should aim to be number one. Its actually good to hear that from them. Even if they fail, that sort of view is not for us to judge but for them to have a clear goal. You don't see the Lakers saying they wanna end up just in the playoffs image

    This is a videogame company, not a sports team. The only thing being number one does is bring in more money, they don't "win" anything, and that in no way is good for us MMO gamers. Wanting to be number one in this field says they care most about the lowest common denominator. Games are typically better when they cater to a specific thing, not when they try and cater to all things.

    Tell that to Blizzard, I don't think they got that memo.

    I wasn't saying that anyone was wrong or right, just that some read into things differently for variouse reasons and Kuppa got what I was saying while you didn't and neather did cutthecrap. His analogy works the same with gaming as it does with sports btw, if you think athletes only wanna be #1 for the pride of it you are mistaken.

     

    The whole point I was trying to make was that there's nothing wrong with claiming your goal is to be number 1 at something and that the statement in and of itself can be viewed in different ways depending on where you stand with the devs themselves and that neither view is wrong. Some will see cockiness and become bitter and irritated and others like me see confidence and feel comforted that they beleive in their product.

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

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