So getting killed and losing all your stuff isn't an issue because all the stuff is replaceable.
The one failing I see in this is that players who died and got their stuff stolen are at least somewhat likely to turn off the game, cancel subscription, and find something else to play.
I can't see a game that has basic mechanics encouraging people to quit being described as casual-friendly.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
For the last few years I ahve been playing Darkfall casually and recently started playing Mortal Online..
I only get a few hours a night and there even goes days where i dont get the time to play..
Darkfalls character development does take a good few months of casual play to get any good in PVP but actually thats one of the things i really liked about it, every time i logged on i had many different things to work towards and not one night was the same really.. During the tiem i was lvlnig up in Darkfall I was also doing quite a pit of PVP with my plan and ahving an awesome time.
Recently started playing Mortal Online and thats just as much fun, combat is a lot slower and feels a bit more tactical that Darkfall and the character development is a tons faster so you can get into PVP a lot quicker and do some real damage.
Anyway i agree with the OP FFA PVP MMORPGs are not just for hardcore players there is a lot of fun to be had even if you cant spend 24 hours a day playing. Saying that tho this type of game is not for everyone and no matter what you will get people who cant get their heads around the fact they could loose all their gear... they never will and thats fine those kind of people have games to play already and FFA PVP games dont need them crying all over the place about how they got ganked and lost everything..
There's nothing really to add to your post, you just described how full loot ties into the bigger picture which I can only agree with. I'm just not quite sure why you are replying to my post with it.
The discussion is about, if full loot is only for the hardcore. My reply to that is this. If a person can kill you and take all your things, no matter how this ties in with the global echonomy or "bigger picture" will still be considered a hardcore mechanic because people generally don't find it a fair tradeoff regardless of how why and when. The only way you are going to make it a casual feature, is by trivializing gear and the time it takes to get it. When I say people I talk about those that avoid those games.
The problem isn't in lack of understanding why the mechanics are there but to try and tell the OP and others that these are niche mechanics for a reason. That reason isn't because people don't "get" how it ties in with the echonomy or the echosystem
Can you make a FFA full loot game work for the casual crowd? Probably if they are given proper option to avoid it entirely
Well. i quoted your post, because you pointed out the act of losing, and that a lot of ppl dont like it, to put it simple. And i agree, but i personally think it is not a problem of the losing by it self, but rather they dont see the bigger picture and the benefits of it, after all the most people are used to games like WoW or just dont know any good execution of such a game, and i cant blame that for it, there are a lot more badly executed FFA PvP games than good ones. And even a few FFA PvP games were FFA PvP is in the first and foremost out of place. There is not a lot of good reasons for Looting in Lineage 2, isnt it? So i personally think there is a lack of understanding why the mechanics are there, at least generally speaking. Your post was just a good starting point to beginn my post.
So i could post the reason why a loss is necessary or usefull under certain conditions. And about hardcore or casual, it is all about definition, but i think that a FFA pvp game can be as good for casuals as any other game, at least if it is good designed. As example, EvE isnt that bad, but it isnt casual friendly either. It is overly complex in the beginning, and you dont come as good into the game, and is it not as good to describe beforehand what is all about.
A casual player per se dont have a lot of valueable items, because he does not invest as much time, so he dont lose as much. Or more importantly, it is all about time. The casual does not have that much time to invest, so it is important from a casual point of view, that your invested time is as rewarding as possible, or just fun.
And how much rewarding time is, is more or less indepented, full loot or not. The problem is much more that most FFA PVP games, and you can even generalize it to Sandboxes are incredible bad, to introduce new players into the world, or what you can do or what everything is about. But that is not really a problem of the game design per se, it is much more the problem of the bad execution of the game design. All of the described game mechanics can be as rewarding with just a few hours invested per week, as if you invest 20+ hours a week. There have to be just a lot more tutorial like introductions to the different gameplay options, and that you introduce some kind of players more slowly to the different mechanics.
Look at Darkfall as one of the bad examples of bad design, especially for casual players. You start at a empty city, with no almost no npc around and nothing at all. If you go out in the world you have to run almost forever to find anything, and then you more or less dont know a shit what you can or should do. And most probably the first experience you get is to get killed from another player. Thats of course not casual friendly, and i am not really surprised that casuals dont like it, because they dont get a dime of a chance to come into the game at first.
Start as example in a more or less save zone(like eve) introduce the player into the different mechanics, with friendly npcs and maybe some simple task(like go out there and plant some potatoes for a potato casserole, or to gather a few resources to forge a sword or whatever), introduce them into the world, introduce them also to the more dangerous places and clarify why it is more dangerous(pks around), but at the same time more rewarding(more usefull resources) and they will accept to take the risk. But in the nowadays game they will thrown into the game with nothing at hand to help them out, with nothing at hand that will them declare what is going on.
Simple Quests, Tutorial are good for such tasks and there is not one reason not to have it in a virtual world, sandbox, ffa pvp game. But the problem is, most those games are from indepentent companies, which consider themself as hardcore and think that such a introduction is not necessary, but it is. Damn even UO did a better job in introducing the player into the world as most games afterwards, and it was one of the first with not a lot of experience on hand how it will turn out.
So finally, casual or hardcore is not about a game is ffa pvp and full loot, or if it is a item grinding/raid game, it is about how you introduce the new player into the game, and how you introduce them to different game mechanics.
Btw. you lose also something in games like WoW. Time. How many dungeons raids did you have done without getting anything? You just wasted your time. Or lost your time so to say. Without being even funny. And time is the real value for casuals, and that is also the reason raiding isnt the most favorable thing for casuals neither.
For the last few years I ahve been playing Darkfall casually and recently started playing Mortal Online..
I only get a few hours a night and there even goes days where i dont get the time to play..
Darkfalls character development does take a good few months of casual play to get any good in PVP but actually thats one of the things i really liked about it, every time i logged on i had many different things to work towards and not one night was the same really.. During the tiem i was lvlnig up in Darkfall I was also doing quite a pit of PVP with my plan and ahving an awesome time.
Recently started playing Mortal Online and thats just as much fun, combat is a lot slower and feels a bit more tactical that Darkfall and the character development is a tons faster so you can get into PVP a lot quicker and do some real damage.
Anyway i agree with the OP FFA PVP MMORPGs are not just for hardcore players there is a lot of fun to be had even if you cant spend 24 hours a day playing. Saying that tho this type of game is not for everyone and no matter what you will get people who cant get their heads around the fact they could loose all their gear... they never will and thats fine those kind of people have games to play already and FFA PVP games dont need them crying all over the place about how they got ganked and lost everything..
Hardcore doesn't only apply to = time spent in game. Perma death is another hardcore mechanic. It isn't called hardcore because people play 12 hours a day
So, I just managed to aquire my first set of Plate Armor, and I'm killing rats now... when suddenly, a max level character ganks me and loots my newly aquired armor.
But it's all 'G' bro, because my skill in defense went up. I just need to get myself some new armor and try again.... actually, no I don't... I'll just stand naked and wait for people to gank me to improve my defence points some more.
Man, I feel like such a hero getting ganked over and over to skill up.
/sarcasm
Great Idea, let me know how many copies you sell.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
For the last few years I ahve been playing Darkfall casually and recently started playing Mortal Online..
I only get a few hours a night and there even goes days where i dont get the time to play..
Darkfalls character development does take a good few months of casual play to get any good in PVP but actually thats one of the things i really liked about it, every time i logged on i had many different things to work towards and not one night was the same really.. During the tiem i was lvlnig up in Darkfall I was also doing quite a pit of PVP with my plan and ahving an awesome time.
Recently started playing Mortal Online and thats just as much fun, combat is a lot slower and feels a bit more tactical that Darkfall and the character development is a tons faster so you can get into PVP a lot quicker and do some real damage.
Anyway i agree with the OP FFA PVP MMORPGs are not just for hardcore players there is a lot of fun to be had even if you cant spend 24 hours a day playing. Saying that tho this type of game is not for everyone and no matter what you will get people who cant get their heads around the fact they could loose all their gear... they never will and thats fine those kind of people have games to play already and FFA PVP games dont need them crying all over the place about how they got ganked and lost everything..
Hardcore doesn't only apply to = time spent in game. Perma death is another hardcore mechanic. It isn't called hardcore because people play 12 hours a day
So hardcore is masochism. Masochists need sadists. So there is a market for victims and abusers in the MMO world. I just don't want to be part of that market.
The problem with FFA full loot MMOs is the wolves always vastly outnumber the sheep and wolves don't like to be eaten any more than sheep.
More like gaming extremes. As you said most simply don't like games that kicks you in the balls while you are down
For the last few years I ahve been playing Darkfall casually and recently started playing Mortal Online..
I only get a few hours a night and there even goes days where i dont get the time to play..
Darkfalls character development does take a good few months of casual play to get any good in PVP but actually thats one of the things i really liked about it, every time i logged on i had many different things to work towards and not one night was the same really.. During the tiem i was lvlnig up in Darkfall I was also doing quite a pit of PVP with my plan and ahving an awesome time.
Recently started playing Mortal Online and thats just as much fun, combat is a lot slower and feels a bit more tactical that Darkfall and the character development is a tons faster so you can get into PVP a lot quicker and do some real damage.
Anyway i agree with the OP FFA PVP MMORPGs are not just for hardcore players there is a lot of fun to be had even if you cant spend 24 hours a day playing. Saying that tho this type of game is not for everyone and no matter what you will get people who cant get their heads around the fact they could loose all their gear... they never will and thats fine those kind of people have games to play already and FFA PVP games dont need them crying all over the place about how they got ganked and lost everything..
Hardcore doesn't only apply to = time spent in game. Perma death is another hardcore mechanic. It isn't called hardcore because people play 12 hours a day
So hardcore is masochism. Masochists need sadists. So there is a market for victims and abusers in the MMO world. I just don't want to be part of that market.
The problem with FFA full loot MMOs is the wolves always vastly outnumber the sheep and wolves don't like to be eaten any more than sheep.
More like gaming extremes. As you said most simply don't like games that kicks you in the balls while you are down
Most people don't like anything that is any form of challenge at all. This is plainly obvious in our society. This is a recent trend within the last 20 years from what I can tell. Growing up I always enjoyed a challenge. Those from newer generations seem to shrink away from anything that is the least bit disheartening. The recent number of new College students who cannot cope with what should in fact be the best time of their life. A record number have reported that is just "too hard". This mentality I'm sure will do them well in life.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
How about I steal your credit card while you console yourself with the fact you got a skill increase in common sense
if you value game pixels as much as your credit card (large sum of real life money) i think you might have some serious issues that you should attend to immediately....
It's an anology. They don't have to have equal value. Since you had trouble understanding abstract reasoning as in a previous post I commented on, I will gladly help you understand this one
Gaining one kind of value doesn't always make up for losing another. Specially if the lose/gain ratio is far from equal. If you still have some trouble I'll gladly expand it some more
I think you'll understand full loot games better once you move away from the concept of epics and 'hard earned' gear. In most full loot MMOs, gear is perceived as a consumable - the expectation is that you will not likely have some or all of it at the end of a battle. Gear is also often very replacable and there is often a reasonable amount of storage space in order to keep various sets of gear and backup gear. In a game like WOW, where you repeat the same hour-long dungeon run 20 times just to get one particular piece of gear, that is a horrific notion, especially with the limited storage and game mechanics that reinforce that deviating from Your One Role and its ideal equipment set will put you at a disadvantage.
Not every MMO is designed like WOW.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I have tried to play Darkfall casually, and I'd recommend anyone try that game, but I couldn't stick with it because so few people played it. PvP was fun, but I'd play for a week before someone would attack me. I'd even run into enemy territory and people would just run away.
I went to some organized event, race war, a few years ago, and everyone was talking about how everyone would be there, and oh it was so massive. psssh it was like 150 people. At that same time, I'd be fighting in mobs of 150 every night in War.
I don't fully know why people don't gravitate to DF. Its not that big a deal, except psychologiaclly when you loose stuff, it is so easy to get more stuff.
I have cringed more at the death penalty in City of Heroes (which barely has one except for the fact that you have a long long way to run back sometimes.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
I can't see a game that has basic mechanics encouraging people to quit being described as casual-friendly.
But thats exactly what casual is.
You play a game for a while - then you play/do something else == casual.
Thats what full loot ffa pvp leads to. Or permadeath. Or whatever super harsh rule you can come up with that makes a player unable to archieve any permanent progression.
And besides, EVE does not count. EVE has risk vs reward - you can risk everything, even permadeath, for a better reward. But you arent forced to take any risks at all. Thus EVE is not casual, because one can archieve permanent progression.
Btw. you lose also something in games like WoW. Time. How many dungeons raids did you have done without getting anything? You just wasted your time. Or lost your time so to say. Without being even funny. And time is the real value for casuals, and that is also the reason raiding isnt the most favorable thing for casuals neither.
Heh, great observation, which is why I don't enjoy raiding, or even dungeon running repetitively to aquire gear. Unless you win the luck of the roll (and I almost never do, no luck it seems) you did in fact waste your time.
I much prefer systems where every dungeon run would at least be profitable in terms of cash received which I could then in turn accumulate and spend on items on the market then I don't mind doing them.
Too often when I raided in WOW (pre BC) we'd spend a fortune in pots, repairs and time only to come away empty handed (personally) unless a DKP system was in place to at least make it somewhat worthwhile.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
How about I steal your credit card while you console yourself with the fact you got a skill increase in common sense
if you value game pixels as much as your credit card (large sum of real life money) i think you might have some serious issues that you should attend to immediately....
It's an anology. They don't have to have equal value. Since you had trouble understanding abstract reasoning as in a previous post I commented on, I will gladly help you understand this one
Gaining one kind of value doesn't always make up for losing another. Specially if the lose/gain ratio is far from equal. If you still have some trouble I'll gladly expand it some more
I think you'll understand full loot games better once you move away from the concept of epics and 'hard earned' gear. In most full loot MMOs, gear is perceived as a consumable - the expectation is that you will not likely have some or all of it at the end of a battle. Gear is also often very replacable and there is often a reasonable amount of storage space in order to keep various sets of gear and backup gear. In a game like WOW, where you repeat the same hour-long dungeon run 20 times just to get one particular piece of gear, that is a horrific notion, especially with the limited storage and game mechanics that reinforce that deviating from Your One Role and its ideal equipment set will put you at a disadvantage.
Not every MMO is designed like WOW.
No idea why you are bringing WoW into the discussion. Your own negative cannonations towards specific games has nothing to do with me. You are probably better off projecting your own feelings towards WoW and it's players somewhere else where it does more good.
Besides that your whole answer is a bit pointless. This isn't about me. Whatever concept loot or gear has is irrelevant and it doesn't make it less of a hardcore mechanic. If it was a casual mechanic you would see it in casual games
I have tried to play Darkfall casually, and I'd recommend anyone try that game, but I couldn't stick with it because so few people played it. PvP was fun, but I'd play for a week before someone would attack me. I'd even run into enemy territory and people would just run away.
I went to some organized event, race war, a few years ago, and everyone was talking about how everyone would be there, and oh it was so massive. psssh it was like 150 people. At that same time, I'd be fighting in mobs of 150 every night in War.
I don't fully know why people don't gravitate to DF. Its not that big a deal, except psychologiaclly when you loose stuff, it is so easy to get more stuff.
I have cringed more at the death penalty in City of Heroes (which barely has one except for the fact that you have a long long way to run back sometimes.
My clan brought over 40 people back/into the game this week. More new players have been popping up at the Capital cities as well. Now might be a good time to have another look. The population is not anywhere near as big as what it used to be though. We used to have 800+ man sieges. Althouh honestly since I rolled a new character for the NA server I am happy that the population is less dense. It makes leveling up much easier.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
How about I steal your credit card while you console yourself with the fact you got a skill increase in common sense
if you value game pixels as much as your credit card (large sum of real life money) i think you might have some serious issues that you should attend to immediately....
It's an anology. They don't have to have equal value. Since you had trouble understanding abstract reasoning as in a previous post I commented on, I will gladly help you understand this one
Gaining one kind of value doesn't always make up for losing another. Specially if the lose/gain ratio is far from equal. If you still have some trouble I'll gladly expand it some more
I think you'll understand full loot games better once you move away from the concept of epics and 'hard earned' gear. In most full loot MMOs, gear is perceived as a consumable - the expectation is that you will not likely have some or all of it at the end of a battle. Gear is also often very replacable and there is often a reasonable amount of storage space in order to keep various sets of gear and backup gear. In a game like WOW, where you repeat the same hour-long dungeon run 20 times just to get one particular piece of gear, that is a horrific notion, especially with the limited storage and game mechanics that reinforce that deviating from Your One Role and its ideal equipment set will put you at a disadvantage.
Not every MMO is designed like WOW.
No idea why you are bringing WoW into the discussion. Your own negative cannonations towards specific games has nothing to do with me. You are probably better off projecting your own feelings towards WoW and it's players somewhere else where it does more good.
Besides that your whole answer is a bit pointless. This isn't about me. Whatever concept loot or gear has is irrelevant and it doesn't make it less of a hardcore mechanic. If it was a casual mechanic you would see it in casual games
I used to lose all my rings in Sonic the Hedgeghog when I got hit. Does that make it a hardcore or casual game?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Btw. you lose also something in games like WoW. Time. How many dungeons raids did you have done without getting anything? You just wasted your time. Or lost your time so to say. Without being even funny. And time is the real value for casuals, and that is also the reason raiding isnt the most favorable thing for casuals neither.
Heh, great observation, which is why I don't enjoy raiding, or even dungeon running repetitively to aquire gear. Unless you win the luck of the roll (and I almost never do, no luck it seems) you did in fact waste your time.
I much prefer systems where every dungeon run would at least be profitable in terms of cash received which I could then in turn accumulate and spend on items on the market then I don't mind doing them.
Too often when I raided in WOW (pre BC) we'd spend a fortune in pots, repairs and time only to come away empty handed (personally) unless a DKP system was in place to at least make it somewhat worthwhile.
Regardless of all those good points, one thing remains, and has always been, those type of games attract the worst kind of players. This comming from a die-hard PvPer, while I love the idea, I cant stand the community.
Its a proven history of, griefing, quest giver harrasment, verbal abuse.
Btw. you lose also something in games like WoW. Time. How many dungeons raids did you have done without getting anything? You just wasted your time. Or lost your time so to say. Without being even funny. And time is the real value for casuals, and that is also the reason raiding isnt the most favorable thing for casuals neither.
Heh, great observation, which is why I don't enjoy raiding, or even dungeon running repetitively to aquire gear. Unless you win the luck of the roll (and I almost never do, no luck it seems) you did in fact waste your time.
I much prefer systems where every dungeon run would at least be profitable in terms of cash received which I could then in turn accumulate and spend on items on the market then I don't mind doing them.
Too often when I raided in WOW (pre BC) we'd spend a fortune in pots, repairs and time only to come away empty handed (personally) unless a DKP system was in place to at least make it somewhat worthwhile.
ofc, doing WoW type raids without DKP is madness.
Well, with all the changes they've made with puggable raids and what not I had assumed things were a bit easier now.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So, I just managed to aquire my first set of Plate Armor, and I'm killing rats now... when suddenly, a max level character ganks me and loots my newly aquired armor.
But it's all 'G' bro, because my skill in defense went up. I just need to get myself some new armor and try again.... actually, no I don't... I'll just stand naked and wait for people to gank me to improve my defence points some more.
Man, I feel like such a hero getting ganked over and over to skill up.
/sarcasm
Great Idea, let me know how many copies you sell.
This response is exactly the reason why I created this post. I cant talk someone into pvp if they already dont like pvp. With my OP, I am describing a case where eventually you are going to build up enough skill points and awareness when you are playing so that you dont get ganked. And if you do, loosing that plate armor wont mean too much because you have 4 other sets of the armor(that you may have made with your skills) or guns in the bank to replace it with. Items arent the focus, its how proficient your character becomes in whatever skills he is working up and the 'role' you are playing within the world.
How about I steal your credit card while you console yourself with the fact you got a skill increase in common sense
if you value game pixels as much as your credit card (large sum of real life money) i think you might have some serious issues that you should attend to immediately....
It's an anology. They don't have to have equal value. Since you had trouble understanding abstract reasoning as in a previous post I commented on, I will gladly help you understand this one
Gaining one kind of value doesn't always make up for losing another. Specially if the lose/gain ratio is far from equal. If you still have some trouble I'll gladly expand it some more
I think you'll understand full loot games better once you move away from the concept of epics and 'hard earned' gear. In most full loot MMOs, gear is perceived as a consumable - the expectation is that you will not likely have some or all of it at the end of a battle. Gear is also often very replacable and there is often a reasonable amount of storage space in order to keep various sets of gear and backup gear. In a game like WOW, where you repeat the same hour-long dungeon run 20 times just to get one particular piece of gear, that is a horrific notion, especially with the limited storage and game mechanics that reinforce that deviating from Your One Role and its ideal equipment set will put you at a disadvantage.
Not every MMO is designed like WOW.
No idea why you are bringing WoW into the discussion. Your own negative cannonations towards specific games has nothing to do with me. You are probably better off projecting your own feelings towards WoW and it's players somewhere else where it does more good.
Besides that your whole answer is a bit pointless. This isn't about me. Whatever concept loot or gear has is irrelevant and it doesn't make it less of a hardcore mechanic. If it was a casual mechanic you would see it in casual games
I have no issue with WOW. However, your reply is based on an obvious lack of understanding of the key differences between gear-progression games and full-loot PVP games. You can replace 'WOW' with any game based on gear progression. If you don't get it, that's fine. Not everyone does.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
How about I steal your credit card while you console yourself with the fact you got a skill increase in common sense
if you value game pixels as much as your credit card (large sum of real life money) i think you might have some serious issues that you should attend to immediately....
It's an anology. They don't have to have equal value. Since you had trouble understanding abstract reasoning as in a previous post I commented on, I will gladly help you understand this one
Gaining one kind of value doesn't always make up for losing another. Specially if the lose/gain ratio is far from equal. If you still have some trouble I'll gladly expand it some more
I think you'll understand full loot games better once you move away from the concept of epics and 'hard earned' gear. In most full loot MMOs, gear is perceived as a consumable - the expectation is that you will not likely have some or all of it at the end of a battle. Gear is also often very replacable and there is often a reasonable amount of storage space in order to keep various sets of gear and backup gear. In a game like WOW, where you repeat the same hour-long dungeon run 20 times just to get one particular piece of gear, that is a horrific notion, especially with the limited storage and game mechanics that reinforce that deviating from Your One Role and its ideal equipment set will put you at a disadvantage.
Not every MMO is designed like WOW.
No idea why you are bringing WoW into the discussion. Your own negative cannonations towards specific games has nothing to do with me. You are probably better off projecting your own feelings towards WoW and it's players somewhere else where it does more good.
Besides that your whole answer is a bit pointless. This isn't about me. Whatever concept loot or gear has is irrelevant and it doesn't make it less of a hardcore mechanic. If it was a casual mechanic you would see it in casual games
I used to lose all my rings in Sonic the Hedgeghog when I got hit. Does that make it a hardcore or casual game?
Think I've had you on ignore since the time I created this account. Sometimes I check and see if I made a mistake with people. In this case I can see it's business as usual
You should feel honored. There's only two people on it. It's very prestigious
How about I steal your credit card while you console yourself with the fact you got a skill increase in common sense
if you value game pixels as much as your credit card (large sum of real life money) i think you might have some serious issues that you should attend to immediately....
It's an anology. They don't have to have equal value. Since you had trouble understanding abstract reasoning as in a previous post I commented on, I will gladly help you understand this one
Gaining one kind of value doesn't always make up for losing another. Specially if the lose/gain ratio is far from equal. If you still have some trouble I'll gladly expand it some more
I think you'll understand full loot games better once you move away from the concept of epics and 'hard earned' gear. In most full loot MMOs, gear is perceived as a consumable - the expectation is that you will not likely have some or all of it at the end of a battle. Gear is also often very replacable and there is often a reasonable amount of storage space in order to keep various sets of gear and backup gear. In a game like WOW, where you repeat the same hour-long dungeon run 20 times just to get one particular piece of gear, that is a horrific notion, especially with the limited storage and game mechanics that reinforce that deviating from Your One Role and its ideal equipment set will put you at a disadvantage.
Not every MMO is designed like WOW.
No idea why you are bringing WoW into the discussion. Your own negative cannonations towards specific games has nothing to do with me. You are probably better off projecting your own feelings towards WoW and it's players somewhere else where it does more good.
Besides that your whole answer is a bit pointless. This isn't about me. Whatever concept loot or gear has is irrelevant and it doesn't make it less of a hardcore mechanic. If it was a casual mechanic you would see it in casual games
I have no issue with WOW. However, your reply is based on an obvious lack of understanding of the key differences between gear-progression games and full-loot PVP games. You can replace 'WOW' with any game based on gear progression. If you don't get it, that's fine. Not everyone does.
Why do assume that? have you even read anything I've written or just skimmed. Somebody already explained it better than you did and i agreed with him.
It's not about how things function but the fact it's hardcore. Unless you want to argue about popularity, the word niche or the fact it isn't hardcore at all because it's a revolving echonomy based on consumable gear vs themeparks then your post is still pointless
If there's a discussion to be had here then it would have to be about how "easy" gear is obtained. If it takes half a day to replace then it's a hardcore mechanic. It it takes an hour then i can somewhat agree it can be geared towards casuals too. When i say hour I'm not talking about the travel time between your spawn spot and the bank but actually farming<crafting
So getting killed and losing all your stuff isn't an issue because all the stuff is replaceable.
The one failing I see in this is that players who died and got their stuff stolen are at least somewhat likely to turn off the game, cancel subscription, and find something else to play.
I can't see a game that has basic mechanics encouraging people to quit being described as casual-friendly.
People who play a game fully aware that they can lose all of their gear don't stop playing because they lost their gear or died.
People stop playing for far more reasons than that, including...
1) Lack of progression, which always occurs in a non-decay non-loot non-permadeath game. Eventually you hit max level with max gear. In a loot game you are always getting good gear, always progressing. In a permadeath game, you are NEVER not progressing.
2) Repeated spawn camping, repeated deaths, inability to win, repeated loss, extensive time wasting in repetitive losing.--- all in a short amount of time, or in an accumulating short amount of time many different times until patience disappears. Any game can encourage this, from softcore WoW to hardcore Darkfall. The only game that wouldn't encourage repetition in losing would be a game with permadeath, designed around players not dying easily. This would make losing in a permadeath game a rarity even for bad players, making it the only game that doesn't allow repetitive losing in a short amount of time. Of course, in that game a loss is WORSE so it might have equivalent frustration (dying 3 times in a permadeath might be as frustrating as repeatedly dying 300 times in WoW or losing 30 matches in a row).
3) Boredom. Can happen in any game, no matter what.
4) Performance Issues.
5) Other reasons.
Losing your gear in a game where gear isn't as important? I have actually never heard of, encountered, or even assumed a player would quit because of this. Ultima Online had people lose some of the most valuable things, and that might make them really frustrated to quit for a few days or a week-- but quiting the game ENTIRELY? That requires something completely different: boredom, realization it is a waste of excessive amounts of time for less fun, etc.
If you like a game, you stay despite small frustration.
If you don't really like the game, you will leave for reasons far surpassing a little gear loss, or even permadeath.
The ONLY situation I can see someone rage quitting a video game is if they never realized it was a [FFA Loot, Permadeath, Harsh Death Penalty, whatever etc.] game. They enter the game and dont realize they can lose their gear, so they quit. They enter the game and dont realize there is permadeath, so they quit upon death. This is based on ignorance, which is the player's own fault.
Any other time, they will quit because the game is boring, time sink requirements, or uninteresting gameplay. If the game takes 1 year to max a character AND is has permadeath, they will quit after death, but not because of permadeath. Because it's a bad video game that requires a RIDICULOUS amount of time sink to progress. If the game loses your gear, and your gear takes a month to get and you cant win PvP without that gear, you will quit bc of bad design. If the game has permadeath and the character creation process and low level gameplay is insanely repetitive and boring, they will quit bc of repetition and boredom. But if a game is fun, addicting, and a quality design-- it doesnt matter if you lose or win, you will keep playing until it gets boring.
Else the MOBA genre wouldn't be so insanely popular, despite it being one of the most frustrating genre of games in existence, with people extremely angry and violent because of the frustration involved with losing. Yet people keep coming back more and more, and instead of quiting they might just take a break.
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So getting killed and losing all your stuff isn't an issue because all the stuff is replaceable.
The one failing I see in this is that players who died and got their stuff stolen are at least somewhat likely to turn off the game, cancel subscription, and find something else to play.
I can't see a game that has basic mechanics encouraging people to quit being described as casual-friendly.
For the last few years I ahve been playing Darkfall casually and recently started playing Mortal Online..
I only get a few hours a night and there even goes days where i dont get the time to play..
Darkfalls character development does take a good few months of casual play to get any good in PVP but actually thats one of the things i really liked about it, every time i logged on i had many different things to work towards and not one night was the same really.. During the tiem i was lvlnig up in Darkfall I was also doing quite a pit of PVP with my plan and ahving an awesome time.
Recently started playing Mortal Online and thats just as much fun, combat is a lot slower and feels a bit more tactical that Darkfall and the character development is a tons faster so you can get into PVP a lot quicker and do some real damage.
Anyway i agree with the OP FFA PVP MMORPGs are not just for hardcore players there is a lot of fun to be had even if you cant spend 24 hours a day playing. Saying that tho this type of game is not for everyone and no matter what you will get people who cant get their heads around the fact they could loose all their gear... they never will and thats fine those kind of people have games to play already and FFA PVP games dont need them crying all over the place about how they got ganked and lost everything..
Well. i quoted your post, because you pointed out the act of losing, and that a lot of ppl dont like it, to put it simple. And i agree, but i personally think it is not a problem of the losing by it self, but rather they dont see the bigger picture and the benefits of it, after all the most people are used to games like WoW or just dont know any good execution of such a game, and i cant blame that for it, there are a lot more badly executed FFA PvP games than good ones. And even a few FFA PvP games were FFA PvP is in the first and foremost out of place. There is not a lot of good reasons for Looting in Lineage 2, isnt it? So i personally think there is a lack of understanding why the mechanics are there, at least generally speaking. Your post was just a good starting point to beginn my post.
So i could post the reason why a loss is necessary or usefull under certain conditions. And about hardcore or casual, it is all about definition, but i think that a FFA pvp game can be as good for casuals as any other game, at least if it is good designed. As example, EvE isnt that bad, but it isnt casual friendly either. It is overly complex in the beginning, and you dont come as good into the game, and is it not as good to describe beforehand what is all about.
A casual player per se dont have a lot of valueable items, because he does not invest as much time, so he dont lose as much. Or more importantly, it is all about time. The casual does not have that much time to invest, so it is important from a casual point of view, that your invested time is as rewarding as possible, or just fun.
And how much rewarding time is, is more or less indepented, full loot or not. The problem is much more that most FFA PVP games, and you can even generalize it to Sandboxes are incredible bad, to introduce new players into the world, or what you can do or what everything is about. But that is not really a problem of the game design per se, it is much more the problem of the bad execution of the game design. All of the described game mechanics can be as rewarding with just a few hours invested per week, as if you invest 20+ hours a week. There have to be just a lot more tutorial like introductions to the different gameplay options, and that you introduce some kind of players more slowly to the different mechanics.
Look at Darkfall as one of the bad examples of bad design, especially for casual players. You start at a empty city, with no almost no npc around and nothing at all. If you go out in the world you have to run almost forever to find anything, and then you more or less dont know a shit what you can or should do. And most probably the first experience you get is to get killed from another player. Thats of course not casual friendly, and i am not really surprised that casuals dont like it, because they dont get a dime of a chance to come into the game at first.
Start as example in a more or less save zone(like eve) introduce the player into the different mechanics, with friendly npcs and maybe some simple task(like go out there and plant some potatoes for a potato casserole, or to gather a few resources to forge a sword or whatever), introduce them into the world, introduce them also to the more dangerous places and clarify why it is more dangerous(pks around), but at the same time more rewarding(more usefull resources) and they will accept to take the risk. But in the nowadays game they will thrown into the game with nothing at hand to help them out, with nothing at hand that will them declare what is going on.
Simple Quests, Tutorial are good for such tasks and there is not one reason not to have it in a virtual world, sandbox, ffa pvp game. But the problem is, most those games are from indepentent companies, which consider themself as hardcore and think that such a introduction is not necessary, but it is. Damn even UO did a better job in introducing the player into the world as most games afterwards, and it was one of the first with not a lot of experience on hand how it will turn out.
So finally, casual or hardcore is not about a game is ffa pvp and full loot, or if it is a item grinding/raid game, it is about how you introduce the new player into the game, and how you introduce them to different game mechanics.
Btw. you lose also something in games like WoW. Time. How many dungeons raids did you have done without getting anything? You just wasted your time. Or lost your time so to say. Without being even funny. And time is the real value for casuals, and that is also the reason raiding isnt the most favorable thing for casuals neither.
The only reason I am not playing these type of game is because of the latency and fps.
The moment you get lag spike you are fk. You need to talk to Mittani about getting your stuff back.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
Hardcore doesn't only apply to = time spent in game. Perma death is another hardcore mechanic. It isn't called hardcore because people play 12 hours a day
So, I just managed to aquire my first set of Plate Armor, and I'm killing rats now... when suddenly, a max level character ganks me and loots my newly aquired armor.
But it's all 'G' bro, because my skill in defense went up. I just need to get myself some new armor and try again.... actually, no I don't... I'll just stand naked and wait for people to gank me to improve my defence points some more.
Man, I feel like such a hero getting ganked over and over to skill up.
/sarcasm
Great Idea, let me know how many copies you sell.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
More like gaming extremes. As you said most simply don't like games that kicks you in the balls while you are down
Most people don't like anything that is any form of challenge at all. This is plainly obvious in our society. This is a recent trend within the last 20 years from what I can tell. Growing up I always enjoyed a challenge. Those from newer generations seem to shrink away from anything that is the least bit disheartening. The recent number of new College students who cannot cope with what should in fact be the best time of their life. A record number have reported that is just "too hard". This mentality I'm sure will do them well in life.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Most people against full loot (or even partial loot) have only played games like WoW where you spend months farming instances to get your purples.
Obviously, in games like this, full loot would be a nightmare.
What people fail to understand is that MMOs aren't always exclusively about gear grinding.
For PvP loot to work, gear needs to be relatively easy to come by and should not be the only focus of gameplay.
I think you'll understand full loot games better once you move away from the concept of epics and 'hard earned' gear. In most full loot MMOs, gear is perceived as a consumable - the expectation is that you will not likely have some or all of it at the end of a battle. Gear is also often very replacable and there is often a reasonable amount of storage space in order to keep various sets of gear and backup gear. In a game like WOW, where you repeat the same hour-long dungeon run 20 times just to get one particular piece of gear, that is a horrific notion, especially with the limited storage and game mechanics that reinforce that deviating from Your One Role and its ideal equipment set will put you at a disadvantage.
Not every MMO is designed like WOW.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I have tried to play Darkfall casually, and I'd recommend anyone try that game, but I couldn't stick with it because so few people played it. PvP was fun, but I'd play for a week before someone would attack me. I'd even run into enemy territory and people would just run away.
I went to some organized event, race war, a few years ago, and everyone was talking about how everyone would be there, and oh it was so massive. psssh it was like 150 people. At that same time, I'd be fighting in mobs of 150 every night in War.
I don't fully know why people don't gravitate to DF. Its not that big a deal, except psychologiaclly when you loose stuff, it is so easy to get more stuff.
I have cringed more at the death penalty in City of Heroes (which barely has one except for the fact that you have a long long way to run back sometimes.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
But thats exactly what casual is.
You play a game for a while - then you play/do something else == casual.
Thats what full loot ffa pvp leads to. Or permadeath. Or whatever super harsh rule you can come up with that makes a player unable to archieve any permanent progression.
And besides, EVE does not count. EVE has risk vs reward - you can risk everything, even permadeath, for a better reward. But you arent forced to take any risks at all. Thus EVE is not casual, because one can archieve permanent progression.
Heh, great observation, which is why I don't enjoy raiding, or even dungeon running repetitively to aquire gear. Unless you win the luck of the roll (and I almost never do, no luck it seems) you did in fact waste your time.
I much prefer systems where every dungeon run would at least be profitable in terms of cash received which I could then in turn accumulate and spend on items on the market then I don't mind doing them.
Too often when I raided in WOW (pre BC) we'd spend a fortune in pots, repairs and time only to come away empty handed (personally) unless a DKP system was in place to at least make it somewhat worthwhile.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No idea why you are bringing WoW into the discussion. Your own negative cannonations towards specific games has nothing to do with me. You are probably better off projecting your own feelings towards WoW and it's players somewhere else where it does more good.
Besides that your whole answer is a bit pointless. This isn't about me. Whatever concept loot or gear has is irrelevant and it doesn't make it less of a hardcore mechanic. If it was a casual mechanic you would see it in casual games
My clan brought over 40 people back/into the game this week. More new players have been popping up at the Capital cities as well. Now might be a good time to have another look. The population is not anywhere near as big as what it used to be though. We used to have 800+ man sieges. Althouh honestly since I rolled a new character for the NA server I am happy that the population is less dense. It makes leveling up much easier.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I used to lose all my rings in Sonic the Hedgeghog when I got hit. Does that make it a hardcore or casual game?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
ofc, doing WoW type raids without DKP is madness.
Regardless of all those good points, one thing remains, and has always been, those type of games attract the worst kind of players. This comming from a die-hard PvPer, while I love the idea, I cant stand the community.
Its a proven history of, griefing, quest giver harrasment, verbal abuse.
Seriously, thats considered fun?
Well, with all the changes they've made with puggable raids and what not I had assumed things were a bit easier now.
(no personal experience however)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This response is exactly the reason why I created this post. I cant talk someone into pvp if they already dont like pvp. With my OP, I am describing a case where eventually you are going to build up enough skill points and awareness when you are playing so that you dont get ganked. And if you do, loosing that plate armor wont mean too much because you have 4 other sets of the armor(that you may have made with your skills) or guns in the bank to replace it with. Items arent the focus, its how proficient your character becomes in whatever skills he is working up and the 'role' you are playing within the world.
yes
I have no issue with WOW. However, your reply is based on an obvious lack of understanding of the key differences between gear-progression games and full-loot PVP games. You can replace 'WOW' with any game based on gear progression. If you don't get it, that's fine. Not everyone does.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Think I've had you on ignore since the time I created this account. Sometimes I check and see if I made a mistake with people. In this case I can see it's business as usual
You should feel honored. There's only two people on it. It's very prestigious
Why do assume that? have you even read anything I've written or just skimmed. Somebody already explained it better than you did and i agreed with him.
It's not about how things function but the fact it's hardcore. Unless you want to argue about popularity, the word niche or the fact it isn't hardcore at all because it's a revolving echonomy based on consumable gear vs themeparks then your post is still pointless
If there's a discussion to be had here then it would have to be about how "easy" gear is obtained. If it takes half a day to replace then it's a hardcore mechanic. It it takes an hour then i can somewhat agree it can be geared towards casuals too. When i say hour I'm not talking about the travel time between your spawn spot and the bank but actually farming<crafting
People who play a game fully aware that they can lose all of their gear don't stop playing because they lost their gear or died.
People stop playing for far more reasons than that, including...
1) Lack of progression, which always occurs in a non-decay non-loot non-permadeath game. Eventually you hit max level with max gear. In a loot game you are always getting good gear, always progressing. In a permadeath game, you are NEVER not progressing.
2) Repeated spawn camping, repeated deaths, inability to win, repeated loss, extensive time wasting in repetitive losing.--- all in a short amount of time, or in an accumulating short amount of time many different times until patience disappears. Any game can encourage this, from softcore WoW to hardcore Darkfall. The only game that wouldn't encourage repetition in losing would be a game with permadeath, designed around players not dying easily. This would make losing in a permadeath game a rarity even for bad players, making it the only game that doesn't allow repetitive losing in a short amount of time. Of course, in that game a loss is WORSE so it might have equivalent frustration (dying 3 times in a permadeath might be as frustrating as repeatedly dying 300 times in WoW or losing 30 matches in a row).
3) Boredom. Can happen in any game, no matter what.
4) Performance Issues.
5) Other reasons.
Losing your gear in a game where gear isn't as important? I have actually never heard of, encountered, or even assumed a player would quit because of this. Ultima Online had people lose some of the most valuable things, and that might make them really frustrated to quit for a few days or a week-- but quiting the game ENTIRELY? That requires something completely different: boredom, realization it is a waste of excessive amounts of time for less fun, etc.
If you like a game, you stay despite small frustration.
If you don't really like the game, you will leave for reasons far surpassing a little gear loss, or even permadeath.
The ONLY situation I can see someone rage quitting a video game is if they never realized it was a [FFA Loot, Permadeath, Harsh Death Penalty, whatever etc.] game. They enter the game and dont realize they can lose their gear, so they quit. They enter the game and dont realize there is permadeath, so they quit upon death. This is based on ignorance, which is the player's own fault.
Any other time, they will quit because the game is boring, time sink requirements, or uninteresting gameplay. If the game takes 1 year to max a character AND is has permadeath, they will quit after death, but not because of permadeath. Because it's a bad video game that requires a RIDICULOUS amount of time sink to progress. If the game loses your gear, and your gear takes a month to get and you cant win PvP without that gear, you will quit bc of bad design. If the game has permadeath and the character creation process and low level gameplay is insanely repetitive and boring, they will quit bc of repetition and boredom. But if a game is fun, addicting, and a quality design-- it doesnt matter if you lose or win, you will keep playing until it gets boring.
Else the MOBA genre wouldn't be so insanely popular, despite it being one of the most frustrating genre of games in existence, with people extremely angry and violent because of the frustration involved with losing. Yet people keep coming back more and more, and instead of quiting they might just take a break.