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"It's a Trap"

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  • pierthpierth Member UncommonPosts: 1,494

    Originally posted by heartless

    My point is that even trying the game does not guarantee that you're making a correct decision.

    It sounds to me like you're trying to argue that making a purchase from second-hand information is just as accurate as making a purchase based on actual hands-on experience with the product. This is absolutely false, and no way you try to lawyer it up is going to change that.

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 Member Posts: 336

    1) Buying a product and having the opportunity to make sure its great isnt paying to test, its investing.

    2) The NDA has no legal standing for products you own. There is no NDA for anyone who bought the product. At least, not in Canada. However, games that dont suck dont have an NDA. Keep that in mind. The NDA was for those who tested without buying, thus getting a preview.

     

    By making beta access part of the pre-purchase, they invalidated their NDA. That is awesome.

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596

    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    1) Buying a product and having the opportunity to make sure its great isnt paying to test, its investing.

    2) The NDA has no legal standing for products you own. There is no NDA for anyone who bought the product. At least, not in Canada. However, games that dont suck dont have an NDA. Keep that in mind. The NDA was for those who tested without buying, thus getting a preview.

     

    By making beta access part of the pre-purchase, they invalidated their NDA. That is awesome.

    The NDA may not be legally binding for the purposes of a lawsuit, but they can still ban your account.  They can ban you for any reason they see fit, really.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • just1opinionjust1opinion Member UncommonPosts: 4,641

    So my question is this.....why didn't the OP just simply not order and go about their merry way?  Instead, they came and made a thread about NOT ordering.  LMAO  The whining comments in this thread are so transparent it's not even funny.  GW2 has become the new whipping post of MMORPG.com's, well....we'll just call them "negative posters."  But we all know what we're talking about here.

    Classic MMORPG.com.  Sad, but true.

     

    Public service announcement my ASS. 

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  • pierthpierth Member UncommonPosts: 1,494

    Originally posted by heartless

    You're absolutely right, it's all about that threshold. Most of us wouldn't care about that $3 bag of potato chips, even if they taste horrible, because $3 is nothing, although it is a poor practice as a consumer.

    I feel the same way about this game and $60. Even if the game fails and I get burned, which I highly doubt, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

    I can see your point, but where the difference is for me is that the potato chip genre isn't a stagnant, awful mess full of half-truths and undelivered promises. You can be damned well sure that if it was, I'd be taste-testing every brand and flavor of chip before I bought them.

  • CeridithCeridith Member UncommonPosts: 2,980

    Originally posted by heartless

    ...

    My point is that even trying the game does not guarantee that you're making a correct decision.

    That's a bit of a cop out.

    Yes, trying out a game before buying won't guarantee that you will still be making the correct decision.

    That said however, in the long run you will fair far better by making informed purchasing decision than you would making uninformed purchasing decisions.

  • CeridithCeridith Member UncommonPosts: 2,980

    Originally posted by just1opinion

    So my question is this.....why didn't the OP just simply not order and go about their merry way?  Instead, they came and made a thread about NOT ordering.  LMAO  The whining comments in this thread are so transparent it's not even funny.  GW2 has become the new whipping post of MMORPG.com's, well....we'll just call them "negative posters."  But we all know what we're talking about here.

    Classic MMORPG.com.  Sad, but true.

     

    Public service announcement my ASS.  Trolololol.

    I could have sworn I've read a post almost exactly like before, but about TOR.

  • just1opinionjust1opinion Member UncommonPosts: 4,641

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by just1opinion

    So my question is this.....why didn't the OP just simply not order and go about their merry way?  Instead, they came and made a thread about NOT ordering.  LMAO  The whining comments in this thread are so transparent it's not even funny.  GW2 has become the new whipping post of MMORPG.com's, well....we'll just call them "negative posters."  But we all know what we're talking about here.

    Classic MMORPG.com.  Sad, but true.

     

    Public service announcement my ASS.  Trolololol.

    I could have sworn I've read a post almost exactly like before, but about TOR.

     

    I remember that too.  It's one of the reasons I think GW2 has replaced SWTOR as the new trollable topic of discussion.

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 Member Posts: 336

    Originally posted by MindTrigger

    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    1) Buying a product and having the opportunity to make sure its great isnt paying to test, its investing.

    2) The NDA has no legal standing for products you own. There is no NDA for anyone who bought the product. At least, not in Canada. However, games that dont suck dont have an NDA. Keep that in mind. The NDA was for those who tested without buying, thus getting a preview.

     

    By making beta access part of the pre-purchase, they invalidated their NDA. That is awesome.

    The NDA may not be legally binding for the purposes of a lawsuit, but they can still ban your account.  They can ban you for any reason they see fit, really.

    If they want a date in court, they can go ahead and do that. The law is clear, you cannot disable someone from enjoying his property. If you stop someone from using a game account, you are stopping him from using something that belongs to him. That is the same as theft.

    So to do that, they would have to provide a refund of the purchase price. Anyways, with all the botting in GW1, I doubt they care much.

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • CeridithCeridith Member UncommonPosts: 2,980

    Originally posted by just1opinion

    Originally posted by Ceridith


    Originally posted by just1opinion

    So my question is this.....why didn't the OP just simply not order and go about their merry way?  Instead, they came and made a thread about NOT ordering.  LMAO  The whining comments in this thread are so transparent it's not even funny.  GW2 has become the new whipping post of MMORPG.com's, well....we'll just call them "negative posters."  But we all know what we're talking about here.

    Classic MMORPG.com.  Sad, but true.

     

    Public service announcement my ASS.  Trolololol.

    I could have sworn I've read a post almost exactly like before, but about TOR.

     

    I remember that too.  It's one of the reasons I think GW2 has replaced SWTOR as the new trollable topic of discussion.

    Woosh

  • bazakbazak Member UncommonPosts: 283

    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    1) Buying a product and having the opportunity to make sure its great isnt paying to test, its investing.

    2) The NDA has no legal standing for products you own. There is no NDA for anyone who bought the product. At least, not in Canada. However, games that dont suck dont have an NDA. Keep that in mind. The NDA was for those who tested without buying, thus getting a preview.

     

    By making beta access part of the pre-purchase, they invalidated their NDA. That is awesome. red part = wrong

    not true, the only thing beta wise that has been purchased was a guarantee of getting in to the beta weekends (and considering all signs point to them dropping the nda when those weekends arrive *aka once you get access to what you have purchased* >.> ....).

    so the people who got into the beta weekends that werent included in pre purchase and bought the game still cant say a dam thing about those weekends without risking a lawsuit. essentialy you do not own the beta weekends that were and are under nda and untill that particular nda is lifted you cant say crap.

     

    even a large lawfirm is gonna have to work dam hard to wiggle out of that and noone is stupid enough to hire an expensive lawfirm to try and wiggle out of that (i seriously hope they arent and if they are that they dont have that kind of money).

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    Originally posted by pierth

    Originally posted by heartless



    You're absolutely right, it's all about that threshold. Most of us wouldn't care about that $3 bag of potato chips, even if they taste horrible, because $3 is nothing, although it is a poor practice as a consumer.

    I feel the same way about this game and $60. Even if the game fails and I get burned, which I highly doubt, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

    I can see your point, but where the difference is for me is that the potato chip genre isn't a stagnant, awful mess full of half-truths and undelivered promises. You can be damned well sure that if it was, I'd be taste-testing every brand and flavor of chip before I bought them.

    Have you read the nutritional content of some of those chips?

    Anyway, it all goes back to that threshold. We all have our limit on how much money we are willing to gamble. I'm not going to buy a car or a house without doing serious research but a video game is a video game. It's enough for me to read up on it and watch a few videos to determine if it's worth it or not.

    image

  • Zen_BladeZen_Blade Member UncommonPosts: 106

    Not the same scenario really.  UO mailed you a CD with the game so it was simply a fee to cover that cost, not to actually play the beta.  Not many had broadband Internet in 1996/97.

     

    Edit: Oops meant to quote this comment from page 1:

     


    Originally posted by ltank

    Even UO had a pay to beta test. I think it cost $2 and you had to mail it in since the internet was still basically in its infancy.

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 Member Posts: 336

    Originally posted by bazak

    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    1) Buying a product and having the opportunity to make sure its great isnt paying to test, its investing.

    2) The NDA has no legal standing for products you own. There is no NDA for anyone who bought the product. At least, not in Canada. However, games that dont suck dont have an NDA. Keep that in mind. The NDA was for those who tested without buying, thus getting a preview.

     

    By making beta access part of the pre-purchase, they invalidated their NDA. That is awesome. red part = wrong

    not true, the only thing beta wise that has been purchased was a guarantee of getting in to the beta weekends (and considering all signs point to them dropping the nda when those weekends arrive *aka once you get access to what you have purchased* >.> ....).

    so the people who got into the beta weekends that werent included in pre purchase and bought the game still cant say a dam thing about those weekends without risking a lawsuit. essentialy you do not own the beta weekends that were and are under nda and untill that particular nda is lifted you cant say crap.

     

    even a large lawfirm is gonna have to work dam hard to wiggle out of that and noone is stupid enough to hire an expensive lawfirm to try and wiggle out of that (i seriously hope they arent and if they are that they dont have that kind of money).

    Depends which country you are in. Here, they own the product now, it belongs to them. Not to Anet. The NDA has to do with what belongs to Anet, which after a financial transaction, ceases to belong to them. You cannot claim rights on a product after you sell it (which is why the music industry is corrupting our elected members, they want that to change).

    Therefor, the NDA, as soon as the purchase is made, becomes invalid.

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • garretthgarretth Member UncommonPosts: 341

    Check out Twitter...they are saying no NDA for the next Beta.  Live streaming will be allowed.

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 2,928

    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    Originally posted by bazak


    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    1) Buying a product and having the opportunity to make sure its great isnt paying to test, its investing.

    2) The NDA has no legal standing for products you own. There is no NDA for anyone who bought the product. At least, not in Canada. However, games that dont suck dont have an NDA. Keep that in mind. The NDA was for those who tested without buying, thus getting a preview.

     

    By making beta access part of the pre-purchase, they invalidated their NDA. That is awesome. red part = wrong

    not true, the only thing beta wise that has been purchased was a guarantee of getting in to the beta weekends (and considering all signs point to them dropping the nda when those weekends arrive *aka once you get access to what you have purchased* >.> ....).

    so the people who got into the beta weekends that werent included in pre purchase and bought the game still cant say a dam thing about those weekends without risking a lawsuit. essentialy you do not own the beta weekends that were and are under nda and untill that particular nda is lifted you cant say crap.

     

    even a large lawfirm is gonna have to work dam hard to wiggle out of that and noone is stupid enough to hire an expensive lawfirm to try and wiggle out of that (i seriously hope they arent and if they are that they dont have that kind of money).

    Depends which country you are in. Here, they own the product now, it belongs to them. Not to Anet. The NDA has to do with what belongs to Anet, which after a financial transaction, ceases to belong to them. You cannot claim rights on a product after you sell it (which is why the music industry is corrupting our elected members, they want that to change).

    Therefor, the NDA, as soon as the purchase is made, becomes invalid.

    AH - NO. A.net owns the game period. You bought rights to use the game, you do not own any content in the game period. It has been this way since UO, GW, and WoW came out. You really need to read your EULA's before you log in. They are an eye opener to say the least.

    They allowed videos, screen caps, etc to be made but no selling of items for RL cash, etc. That is what Blizzard is doing with Diablo III as long as they get there % of the sale.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 Member Posts: 336

    Originally posted by garretth

    Check out Twitter...they are saying no NDA for the next Beta.  Live streaming will be allowed.

    Did they say how many prepurchases have been made?

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596

    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    Originally posted by MindTrigger


    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    1) Buying a product and having the opportunity to make sure its great isnt paying to test, its investing.

    2) The NDA has no legal standing for products you own. There is no NDA for anyone who bought the product. At least, not in Canada. However, games that dont suck dont have an NDA. Keep that in mind. The NDA was for those who tested without buying, thus getting a preview.

     

    By making beta access part of the pre-purchase, they invalidated their NDA. That is awesome.

    The NDA may not be legally binding for the purposes of a lawsuit, but they can still ban your account.  They can ban you for any reason they see fit, really.

    If they want a date in court, they can go ahead and do that. The law is clear, you cannot disable someone from enjoying his property. If you stop someone from using a game account, you are stopping him from using something that belongs to him. That is the same as theft.

    So to do that, they would have to provide a refund of the purchase price. Anyways, with all the botting in GW1, I doubt they care much.

    Real your EULA.  Software is rarely your 'property'.  You realize that in the US, private companies can ban you from their establishments to protect their business? The right to refuse service works in cases where the business has a legitimate claim that they are preventing loss of current and future business, and that's aside from whatever is in the EULA.  There's lots of gray area with this, and basically up to the individual judge to interpret and decide.  I'm no lawyer, but as a business owner, this is how I interpreted what I have read.  You can look it up if you are interested.

    As has been noted though, I doubt they have any expectation of keeping the NDA up once they let pre-purchase players in.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • LordRelicLordRelic Member Posts: 281

    Really who freaking cares.. You telling me the company who wrote the NDA is not allowed to talk about there product?  Are you  telling me you never talked about a game in beta to a friend who wasnt or a wife who walked in and saw you playing it? if you say yes Bullshit you lie.

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 Member Posts: 336

    Originally posted by botrytis

    Originally posted by neobahamut20


    Originally posted by bazak


    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    1) Buying a product and having the opportunity to make sure its great isnt paying to test, its investing.

    2) The NDA has no legal standing for products you own. There is no NDA for anyone who bought the product. At least, not in Canada. However, games that dont suck dont have an NDA. Keep that in mind. The NDA was for those who tested without buying, thus getting a preview.

     

    By making beta access part of the pre-purchase, they invalidated their NDA. That is awesome. red part = wrong

    not true, the only thing beta wise that has been purchased was a guarantee of getting in to the beta weekends (and considering all signs point to them dropping the nda when those weekends arrive *aka once you get access to what you have purchased* >.> ....).

    so the people who got into the beta weekends that werent included in pre purchase and bought the game still cant say a dam thing about those weekends without risking a lawsuit. essentialy you do not own the beta weekends that were and are under nda and untill that particular nda is lifted you cant say crap.

     

    even a large lawfirm is gonna have to work dam hard to wiggle out of that and noone is stupid enough to hire an expensive lawfirm to try and wiggle out of that (i seriously hope they arent and if they are that they dont have that kind of money).

    Depends which country you are in. Here, they own the product now, it belongs to them. Not to Anet. The NDA has to do with what belongs to Anet, which after a financial transaction, ceases to belong to them. You cannot claim rights on a product after you sell it (which is why the music industry is corrupting our elected members, they want that to change).

    Therefor, the NDA, as soon as the purchase is made, becomes invalid.

    AH - NO. A.net owns the game period. You bought rights to use the game, you do not own any content in the game period. This has been this way since UO, GW, and WoW came out.

    In the USA, maybe. Not here. Here, if you say purchase, it implies buying the product, not renting it. If I was falsely led to believe that I would own the product, they can refund the person and then cut access. But the word, on the screen, clearly said that GW2 would be mine in exchange for 60$. That is the transaction that took place.

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • MalltrakMalltrak Member UncommonPosts: 17

    The world of MMO's is just starting to catch up with pre-purchase, I have purchased a burger BEFORE I got it! I paid for a carwash BEFORE I got it....all pre-purchase, the point is this is econmics supply and demand, we want it and so we paid for it.....done, if you do no understand that and you really are "utterly dumbfounded" at this then you are the only person to blame for not understanding how the world works.

    Other things you can pre-PURCHASE!

    Cars

    Movie tickets

    Sport events

    Concerts

    Airplane tickets

    Please stop being stupid, if you don’t want the game don’t buy it.

  • bazakbazak Member UncommonPosts: 283

    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    Originally posted by bazak


    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    1) Buying a product and having the opportunity to make sure its great isnt paying to test, its investing.

    2) The NDA has no legal standing for products you own. There is no NDA for anyone who bought the product. At least, not in Canada. However, games that dont suck dont have an NDA. Keep that in mind. The NDA was for those who tested without buying, thus getting a preview.

     

    By making beta access part of the pre-purchase, they invalidated their NDA. That is awesome. red part = wrong

    not true, the only thing beta wise that has been purchased was a guarantee of getting in to the beta weekends (and considering all signs point to them dropping the nda when those weekends arrive *aka once you get access to what you have purchased* >.> ....).

    so the people who got into the beta weekends that werent included in pre purchase and bought the game still cant say a dam thing about those weekends without risking a lawsuit. essentialy you do not own the beta weekends that were and are under nda and untill that particular nda is lifted you cant say crap.

     

    even a large lawfirm is gonna have to work dam hard to wiggle out of that and noone is stupid enough to hire an expensive lawfirm to try and wiggle out of that (i seriously hope they arent and if they are that they dont have that kind of money).

    Depends which country you are in. Here, they own the product now, it belongs to them. Not to Anet. The NDA has to do with what belongs to Anet, which after a financial transaction, ceases to belong to them. You cannot claim rights on a product after you sell it (which is why the music industry is corrupting our elected members, they want that to change).

    Therefor, the NDA, as soon as the purchase is made, becomes invalid.



    yes but that is not actualy what they are selling, its not the actual product, the previous weekends were not included in the sale. they bought the right to play gw2 on the live servers and to play on the beta event weekends, not the beta testing weekends.

     

    the previous weekends are not a part of the product and therefore are not included, honestly i said this stuff in my last post >.>

    it all depends on what you define the product itself as, they dont have a right to talk about things they havent been sold and   access to previous betas (a service not sold to anyone) is not included in the pre purchase, so there is no problem with that law. remember you dont own any mmo, you just own the right to use the software and access the server (basicly you are just buying services although the game disc might be included but you would need to have the game disc and get what info is on it to be able to leak anything info from any other source is not a part of the product.)

  • garretthgarretth Member UncommonPosts: 341

    Look at the fine print and it is all spelled out for you.  :)

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596

    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    Originally posted by bazak


    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    1) Buying a product and having the opportunity to make sure its great isnt paying to test, its investing.

    2) The NDA has no legal standing for products you own. There is no NDA for anyone who bought the product. At least, not in Canada. However, games that dont suck dont have an NDA. Keep that in mind. The NDA was for those who tested without buying, thus getting a preview.

     

    By making beta access part of the pre-purchase, they invalidated their NDA. That is awesome. red part = wrong

    not true, the only thing beta wise that has been purchased was a guarantee of getting in to the beta weekends (and considering all signs point to them dropping the nda when those weekends arrive *aka once you get access to what you have purchased* >.> ....).

    so the people who got into the beta weekends that werent included in pre purchase and bought the game still cant say a dam thing about those weekends without risking a lawsuit. essentialy you do not own the beta weekends that were and are under nda and untill that particular nda is lifted you cant say crap.

     

    even a large lawfirm is gonna have to work dam hard to wiggle out of that and noone is stupid enough to hire an expensive lawfirm to try and wiggle out of that (i seriously hope they arent and if they are that they dont have that kind of money).

    Depends which country you are in. Here, they own the product now, it belongs to them. Not to Anet. The NDA has to do with what belongs to Anet, which after a financial transaction, ceases to belong to them. You cannot claim rights on a product after you sell it (which is why the music industry is corrupting our elected members, they want that to change).

    Therefor, the NDA, as soon as the purchase is made, becomes invalid.

    What do you "own" then?  The game client?  You certainly don't own any part of the network it connects to.  

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 2,928

    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    Originally posted by botrytis


    Originally posted by neobahamut20


    Originally posted by bazak


    Originally posted by neobahamut20

    1) Buying a product and having the opportunity to make sure its great isnt paying to test, its investing.

    2) The NDA has no legal standing for products you own. There is no NDA for anyone who bought the product. At least, not in Canada. However, games that dont suck dont have an NDA. Keep that in mind. The NDA was for those who tested without buying, thus getting a preview.

     

    By making beta access part of the pre-purchase, they invalidated their NDA. That is awesome. red part = wrong

    not true, the only thing beta wise that has been purchased was a guarantee of getting in to the beta weekends (and considering all signs point to them dropping the nda when those weekends arrive *aka once you get access to what you have purchased* >.> ....).

    so the people who got into the beta weekends that werent included in pre purchase and bought the game still cant say a dam thing about those weekends without risking a lawsuit. essentialy you do not own the beta weekends that were and are under nda and untill that particular nda is lifted you cant say crap.

     

    even a large lawfirm is gonna have to work dam hard to wiggle out of that and noone is stupid enough to hire an expensive lawfirm to try and wiggle out of that (i seriously hope they arent and if they are that they dont have that kind of money).

    Depends which country you are in. Here, they own the product now, it belongs to them. Not to Anet. The NDA has to do with what belongs to Anet, which after a financial transaction, ceases to belong to them. You cannot claim rights on a product after you sell it (which is why the music industry is corrupting our elected members, they want that to change).

    Therefor, the NDA, as soon as the purchase is made, becomes invalid.

    AH - NO. A.net owns the game period. You bought rights to use the game, you do not own any content in the game period. This has been this way since UO, GW, and WoW came out.

    In the USA, maybe. Not here. Here, if you say purchase, it implies buying the product, not renting it. If I was falsely led to believe that I would own the product, they can refund the person and then cut access. But the word, on the screen, clearly said that GW2 would be mine in exchange for 60$. That is the transaction that took place.

    AH no. You need to re-read ANY of your EULA's for any recent games you purchased. It was the same way in Europe as in the US as for as GW1 was concerned - I belong to a guild from Britain/Europe in that game. The same rules apply.

    As I said, read your EULA.

     

     

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

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