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So whats the actual argument against raiding in GW2?
BilboDoggins
Member Posts: 198
First off I am aware there are no raids in GW2 (although some dynamic boss events very much resemble an open world raid of sorts which is cool). I get many of you hate raids and are tired of them and dont wanna participate in them. Thats fine too.
But the biggest argument against raids is that in most games they always offer the best loot with the highest stats that give a competitive advantage..........................but since GW2 doesnt offer "better" gear that gives advantages through higher stats then exactly what is the argument against raiding?
Lots of people still enjoy raiding. Its just another form of gameplay. One which encourages socialization and the formation of guilds/communities. There are a lot of positive aspects to raiding. The big negative was always how it provided the best gear and advantages which didnt necessarily correlate to skill. But thats not the case in GW2 and wouldnt happen. If GW2 had raids they would just provide unique titles and different cosmetic gear that wouldnt be superior to anything else someone can get.
So why shouldnt ArenaNet add raids in the future? Is their a valid reason against them?
****Please be aware that the opinion, "Raids suck! I hate them go back to WoW if you wanna raid" is not a valid argument against having them in GW2. Neither is the fact they dont exist now because they can be added later.*********
Comments
Those are both valid arguments although not phrased nicely. Just because you don't want people to say that doesn't mean they won't. or it is invalid I think the whole design philosophy of GW2 breaking the decade old mold we have developed is part of this decision. They rely on open world events to not further hide people away in instances. I don't have an opinion one way or the other as I PVP but if they do come I wouldn't mind seeing open world raids kind of like Raid Rifts in Rift.
1) Convincing 24 morons not to stand in fire.
2) Having to sit around for 45 minutes because we need that last person that won't show up.
3) Loot drama.
4) This guy doesn't have 2 brain cells to rub together and he wiped us 14 times last night, but he's teh Guild Leader's cousin...
Don't get me wrong, I love the eopic challenge a well-planned raid requires. But there's so much aggravation...as a RL I've burned out on more guilds and games than I care to mention from crap like this.
The game has dungeons which squirrel people away into instances so thats not really a good argument against having raids which would do the same thing. It would be hypocritical to use this as a valid excuse.
And like you said, GW2 could have raids similar to the Guild Rifts in Rift hwere they were all outdoors. So now everyones out in the world even more.
They probably took the number of people who raid in MMOs, subtracted the number of people who only raid for gear they can't get any other way, and came up with a number too small to cater to, at least for the time being.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Its a different game design.
"I am not a robot. I am a unicorn."
I don't think they are against massive zerging funfests. Just against having to repeat the same content untill your head explodes for some piece of gear that has a stupid low chance to drop.
their argument ie they don't want to lock ppl out of epic bosses, it simple.they figured getting 4 other ppl to do an instance is faster than getting 24.
they want to utilized their dynamic event system and create interesting boss that everybody can experience just not guilds. Because they don't want to force players to join guilds just to see content.
creating raids requires far too much time and resources for something only less than 7% of total fan base will enjoy.
finally they figure out what companies have been missing all these years, which is you cannot beat WoW at it's own game. The ppl that like raids are not gonna leave WoW to play another game with raids, so why tempt fate. Games that copy wow fail because there is a much better game out there and ppl hate to start from zero. Also they figure since gw2 has no subs, nothing stopping raiders from playing wow to raid.
Ok, so what do you get out of the raids? just curious what the point is. I know you can say some people find it fun. Fair enough. Though how many people find it fun when the reward is not better then rewards received in easier ways since this game isn't about gear.
One of life's lil hand grenades
Your raids are in the form of the scalable world bosses. The socializing is still there, the guild comraderie is still there. The fun is still there. Just without the gear, and that's all raiding was really for.
No difference, except for the instanced zone that you're only really there for the gear.
swtor, RIFT, LotRO, WoW's unstoppale subcription leak. it's old now. interesting game worlds are better than queues.
Mist=raiding and no u dont get same mobs doing samething and standing at same place every time u enter.
People wouldn't be able to raid in GW2 because there are no addons to tell them what to do, when to do it and generally automate every encounter.
That sounds more like an argument FOR raiding in GW2 if you ask me. ¯( ^_^ )/¯
One major reason why Raids wouldn't work Guild Wars 2 (along with the lack of gear progression & incentive over other forms of content), is due to the lack of the Holy Trinity. There's no denying it but Guild Wars 2's group combat mechnics is pretty chaotic, however Dungeons run will have a controlled chaos, because of the small number of players involved. The smaller the number, the easier it is for those players to coordinate and remain aware of each other. But add more players to the mix and without a system govening the players actions and without an effective way to control the encounter (lack of mob AI manipulation), things will be all over the place.
The one thing the Holy Trinity does well is keeping things tightly under control, where the only time there is any chaos is when something goes wrong (e.g. Tank dying). Look, here is the hardest boss Raid boss in Rift right now; everyone knows their role, their role never changes, they simply execute it and such an encounter would be impossible with GW2's combat mechanics. In GW2 you'll have players being two-shotted left & right, players dodging all over the place, players not aware they should help get mob attention to help spread out the groups damage taken, or just other nonsense that occurs when adding more players to the mix. These issues are just amplified by GW2's combat mechanics. It is why even the Raid style Dynamic Events are designed to be doable by the majority of players in the Open World and Dungeons are where the real challenge will be.
Terrant that is a nice sum up of why I dislike raiding as well. GW2 solve all of those problems with raiding in other mmo's. If you raided for the challenge their are exploration mode dungeons. You will need alot of coordination to do them. I do not think their will be to many big hardcore pve guilds because of this, but their will be smaller guilds of hardcore players doing them.
I believe the best looking gear should drop in the hardmode dungeons, require alot of glory or be extremely hard to craft(ultra rare drops). You can still tranmogrification armor to have the stats you want but good looking armor should be difficult to find. Doing this would give people something to look forward to for putting in all of that effort.
The only complaint I ever had with raiding was that I hated running the same content for months to make sure everyone was geared up for the next tier. I like to tackle the content and also help others complete it from time to time. When it is something I have to do the same time every week it's not so much fun. The explorable mode dungeons sound like they will fill that "need to raid" for me.
My theme song.
What I don't like about raiding is the entire nature of it, gated content, itemized progression and of course the culture it breeds.
Gated content is just bad design IMO, tiered entry based on gear based stats is the mother of all **** ups in this genre, it is a large part of why overall MMO design has become as shallow as it has. Materialistic reward and virtual world do not mix well.
Because.. Materialistic incentives act as an enabler to segregated communties, it becomes a case of the haves and have nots. Which destroys any sense of an overreaching community in it to support a healthy gaming atmosphere.
Might not be an argument against raiding in GW2, frankly I don't care, I'm just glad GW2 won't have it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Pretty much nailed it from my end. +1
Also like to add that when in a guild and agreeing to raid you feel forced to be there even if some RL stuff comes up. I don't want a game telling me when to play. Biggest turnoff was time management for me. Long waits to get going or not knowing when to call it on some nights.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I wouldnt completely discount having raid-ish dungeons. GW1 introduced Elite Missions which had up to 12 players. These were extremely time consuming and difficult and required a lot of coordination, probably more than any raid I have played in any other game aside from EQ2 to be honest.
My problems with raids? I only have 2:
Nerd Rage over loot and Armchair generals...
Neither is fun!
I've never raided heavily, but when I was involved in it, I loathed it pretty much from day one until the day I quit. I was only in it to see the content. That was my only interest. But to do that, it meant associating with raiders and having to put up with all of their fascist rules, petty infighting, bitching, moaning and epeen preening. I hated that. I even left a casual guild of people I enjoyed being around, to subject myself to the rampant arseholery of a raiding guild. I did that twice in total. I'll never do it again. No content is worth subjecting myself to the company of people I despise.
I'm guessing that there are no raids in GW2 because it would cater to raiders, who would form raiding guilds full of elitist prima donnas, who view themselves as superior to the rest of the community. I could do without them in my games. Perhaps ArenaNet feels the same.
Anyway, that would be *my* reason for not having raids.
What is the argument for raids? Take out the loot aspect of it and what do you have? Could you acomplish the same thing in a smaller group setting?
I think that although many people enjoy raiding because they have never been a RL. As frustrating as problems are for the raiders are they increased tenfold for the RL. The willpower and determination to gather 24 people every week is a draining task with few rewards.
Many times I have imagined that if there were only 24 other clones of me the boss would be dead and we could move on. Note: I liked to learn mechanics outside of my role (dps lock) to develop deeper strategies for my alts (dk tank, sham heal). I have played all 3 aspects of the trinity so I understand many reasons why players are fail.
One other downside is that *we need a specific class and talent spec* for *insert trinity role here* business. I loved my warlock to pieces. I would work hard every expansion to gear it up to minimal raiding capability and then some. All this hard work was for naught because my guild needed me to tank. Although I enjoyed my DK tank I did not relish that fact that my Lock was benched. As I repeatedly requested a new tank all that happened was I got even BETTER as tank and started making it difficult for us to break in a new tank. Ultimately my DK became main tank and I left WoW not long after because of infinite dailies.
I was forced to play something I didn't really want to play because of mechanics. In Gw2 even though I may be asked to fulfill a role outside of my primary playstyle I need not change my character to do so.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
To tell the truth, the Big Boss battles you see are basically raids. The only difference is that everyone gets a drop (no fighting
), there is no need to wait becuase the boss scales, also becuase you don't need to complete any sort of trinity ue to the lack of the common "holy trinity", and these battles often provide a more 3d level of gameplay. What I mean by that is that there are several ways people can help, whether by manning turrets, protecting turrets, destorying minions/ debree that get in the way, rezzing fellow fallen allies, or whatever else Anet decides to throw at us. Why add a strict "HERE IS WHERE YOU SHALL RAID" sign when you already have better things in place? Makes sense to me, hope that answers you question.
P.S. I've been seeing you a lot recently...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation