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Lets talk about dungeons
Bunks
Member Posts: 960
So, as many who want to check my post history, I am not hater of GW2. Fanboi may be more accurate. So when I post this it is to maybe give Anet something to consider.
Thought I'd chime in on this one as I didn't on the last one. My admittedly bad play is a blend of genuine skill-less-ness, plus playing in a 1280x720 window and not sleeping for 48 hours, plus boredom and disappointment.
The dungeon was an extreme contrast to the rest of our GW2 experience, which involved hugely enjoyable open-world public wanderings and pseudo-questing, having a fantastic time. Here, we were suddenly required to spend 30 minutes finding 3 other people to complete a 90 minute dark, claustrophobic and grindy dungeon.
I found the whole thing very unoriginal, with none of the creativity, "fun", or active tactics of even 10-year-old dungeons like Deadmines. I'm not saying I want cartoon parrots or a pirate ship with a rope swing at the end - and maybe there is one since we didn't get there(!) - but I expected something different in Guild Wars 2, where they've done everything else right.
My biggest fear is what this means for end-game - which noone seems to have mentioned at all. Is this what's in store for us in terms of end-game dungeons/raids? Because count me out.
Yogcast personality Simon chimed in on Reddit with this tidbit. He played the game, he liked the game, and he gave honest feedback on it too. Question is, is this a case of not understanding the non trinity play style, or is it a lack of imagination on Anet's ability to develope it's own unique concept of what a dungeon run should be? It worries me. IF this game has a problem, it is with the player base grasping these new concepts. If the game has a flaw, this maybe the place it starts to show long term.
Comments
All parts of the game aren't meant for all people. Just like how the majority of PvE'ers don't like Raiding, there are people who simply don't enjoy Dungeon runs. I don't hold that against him, or the way the game was designed, because there are other aspects of the game he enjoyed.
Yeah I have read what Yogcast thought of the dungeon before. They really did not have the skill to do that dungeon. They were sidekicked up to level 30, so they miss the 15-25 area where you learn to dodge (kill ten rats post talking about it). Also, they rarely used their own heal in combat, as I watch that it irritated me so much. Most of their deaths were because of not using their heal. They did not adapt to the mechanics of the game like alot of press beta videos.
As for the Lovers I can understand how that boss can be difficult the first time you encounter them. They did not have much time to think about how to deal with the boss. Even when they heard how to deal with the boss they still did not organized themselves to start the fight right and ended up with people dead before they could get into position. Like in the other encounters they did not heal once the cooldown came back up and did not dodge out of the AE's.
Arenanet may dumb down story mode but hopefully not exploration mode. I posted some links about what the lead design Eric Flannum though about dungeons and the remove of the holy trinity in my other thread. He basically said that people who attempt to do a standard holy trinity set-up maybe able to get through some of the easier content, but fail on the harder ones. Meaning if your group is unwilling to adapt to a boss they will fail a dungeon.
The 5man dungeons and structured pvp are the End-game content for GW2, so it should not be easy. Not everyone plays mmorpgs to raid a few nights a week. When I use to log on to WoW every day, I would look for my friends so we could do things together. That was why I continued to play wow after I stopped raiding. With GW2 I will get to do both since the dungeons look challenging enough that you will only need a few friends to try and master them instead of 25/40 people.
As for the length of the dungeons, I only saw one video that did not wipe and they cleared it in 35min. The other videos of that dungeon wiped alot and took an hour or so to complete. Just like any other bad dungeon group in Wow.
So much of the game design has been to the "simon" crowd types. With so much put toward ease of play and fast fluid leveling, it worries me that people like this could not only hamper or become frustrated by these type of runs, they could very well just quit from frustration or make it really hard for those who pug groups with , sorry to say this "idiots", who are clueless on how to problem solve. Making these runs a frustration for everyone.
Well once the beta test happens at the end of the month we will get to see how difficult they are for new people. Most of the difficult from the dungeon videos I saw came from people not healing themselves, dodging or moving out of the AE. Still the idea of controlling a boss will be a difficult concept for newer players to master. I do not think this system will get ride of elitism.
I agree with Aguliondew, some of the videos I saw were frustating to watch because the player didnt use selfheal or tried to dodge. If such a player then has to skip 20 lvls and gets thrown into groupcontent, you can expect them to fail, which is understandable. But it becomes frustrating to watch if they don't realise why they are failing and keep on spamming the same skills and not work together.
Some of those players I saw during press beta are clearly programmed in the tabbased combat where you stand still and just spam your skillrotation. I bet that the press beta players that adapted fairly fast, were people who also used to play FPS games. Somehow they automatically started to move around more and use dodge.
It is one of the reasons why I dont pug anymore in MMO's. I always play with some of my rl friends and build a friendslist with likeminded players. I dont mind noobs, but I do mind players that are careless and dont understand that when they dont pay attention, they mess things up for the whole group. Some players never change their playstyle and keep going in head first.
But try to understand this part, Anet is trying to build the M into mmo with there all inclusive play style. It may be common sense to us, but to people like "simon" it may be expected to be just another part of the game that they can noob their way through it. Only making it a shock to them, and a frustration to the "better" adapted player.
It's why I worry about this. It may be the thing that causes the most friction between hardcore and casuals.
And try to understand that you simply cannot have someone do something they don't enjoy, without such a person becoming frustrated. Re-read Lewis' post and you'll get that sort of tone from what he wrote. This is nothing to do with causing friction between subsets of individuals. Anyway the fact that there is content for both the casual player and the hardcore, in Guild Wars 2, is what really matters in the end.
Like I said before, these dungeons are not meant for those who do not like doing this sort of content. People who go into a dungeon and end up hating it will just not play that part of the game. If there is nothing else the game has to offer, they 'll put the game down, otherwise they'll do something else in the game.
well, as everything else in gw2, it's optional content so...
Personally i don't like instanced dungeons but this looks fun enough for me to take a plunge or two when i feel like it (same for the personal story). From the vids I've seen, the dungeons look an order of magnitude above what we're used to (WoW, bleh) with the traps and no tank-and-spank bull. They do look fun enough for a nice diversion when I grow weary of the endless slaughter in WvW.
Most of his opinions towards the dungeon came from him being frustrated and pissed at how poorly their run was going. They did awful and it was rather obvious it was affecting his mood not only towards the group but the dungeon as well.
I do agree with him that the overall atmosphere was drab, similar, and mundane . There is something to be said about the lack of variation in mobs they came across too. Could have been a lot more creative in those areas far as I'm concerned. However I completely disagree with the rest of his take and think that portion mostly stems from him being pissed they did so poorly in the dungeon. I mean they really sucked. With two Anet devs helping them no less.
Could be a concern. Hard to say without seeing other dungeons and any explore modes to see if this is a consistant pattern or is simply not going to end up being one of the more noteworthy ones.
Persoanlly my biggest concern is that I don't think his mentality is a fluke and it is going to be a pain in the ass to get some players to stick it ou or replce them because they died or the group almost/did wipe. Think I said this in another thread about this that seems the average player anymore lacks a lot of patience and expect to faceroll everything or they'll quit. I think Loke responded to it best by saying that it will just make completing them all the better expecially if there is gear to flaunt or experience other areas of the dungeon with further adventures and rewards in explorable. This game could be an adjustment for some players and there are going to be those that simply say, "Fuck it. Not worth it."
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
The dungeons look great so far. but with no proper reward there's no point in doing them more than once imo. Maybe another run on explore mode. Which is like "hard" mode from other games.
Currently Playing: SSFIV AE, SFxTekken, SWTOR, WoW. Waiting for: GW2, Resident Evil 6.
Oblivious at best. Nothing else is to be said.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
endgame huh?
let me just start off by saying that the stupidity of simon's statement is huge considered he's playing the beta right now and still thinks there's an end game.,,, when we've all been told by Anet that the entire game is not end-game focused.
secondly, let's look at who normally plays these games, WoW players and don't tell me that it's not true. The end dungeons for Cataclysm spoke for the people who just didn't want to think and wanted an easy end game dungeon to run for points and it shows. That's the type of player Simon and his like are. They don't want to think anymore because they never had to in the first place.
I can't remember which it was, (i think it was Simon) but one of them was an engineer and all he had to do is equip the flame thrower kit to move one of the "Lovers" bosses around but he didn't even think about it they were still throwing boulders to move them around. You'll see the frustration of not following directions clearly in this video.
They needed to get through a door by using step plates to open a door and couldn't do that even and that's with some devs (of other games not this one i think) who understood what was happening in the dungeon.
This explains why people are having issues, because no one wants to follow instructions or figure things out for themselves.
If your saying dificulty or any of what this guys say is a concern, you should watch MIke B aka fony dungeon run.
They do "the lovers" in under a minute because they actually THOUGH of what to do instead of just going in and trying to zerg the dam thing
No, I wasn't and yes I did see the video.
Only difficult as in dealing with these quitters and pouters being in your group from time to time is the only thing I remarked on from that point of view.
In all fairness though, much as I hate to do it because frankly Lewis was being a whiny bitch in those dungeon videos is that Mike B's group had a dev tell them in chat what to do ahead of time there and at some other points whereas the ones with Yogscast waited to mention things until folks got blown up a few times.
My only concern outside of the crybaby factor that could be rather annoying until people adjust is that I do agree with Simon's take on the aesthetic and atmospheric points. But as I also said this was one dungeon and only the story mode so no telling what the rest are like and I'm not going to assume as he did that they all follow this same pattern. I don't agree wiith the rest of his statement at all and think it really came from him being sore about how awful they did.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Keep in mind that they were auto leveled to 30. It would've been a much different experience if they actually leveled to 30 the proper way. They would have learned their class better during the journey to 30.
Pretty much all of my gamer friends are casual. I'm the only hardcore no-lifer in our circle and I don't see any of them having this kind of problem with the game. I see repeated failures as they adjust to the new playstyle that requires them to be responsible for themselves, but I'm confident that they will adapt, especially since I intend on tutoring them as needed.
But really, some people will always need the soother in their mouth. There's nothing more to be done about it. It may sound draconian but I feel we should just leave them behind if they can't or won't keep up. And I say that because I think there will be a small minority of gamers are are simply incapable of adjusting. I don't even believe poor, beleaguered Simon is a lost cause. He just needs a mentor to show him how things work. On release, I guarantee there will be tons of GW2 experts who will be more than happy to shepherd the weak through the valley of darkness. I don't know how long that will last but we'll see plenty of it during the first weeks.
So yeah, some people are going to have a harder time adjusting than others, but they can be helped. Others are just going to be too calcified in their view of gaming to do anything for. I just think the latter group will be pretty small on the whole.
Yeah there might be some sheperds, but they'll be drowned out by the people screaming at them 'go back to wow noobs'.
I'm not concerned so much about the dungeons, there optional, if i don't like them I won't do them. I'm a little more concerned that so many of the press that had been covering this game got it so wrong. You'd think they would have atleast done a little research before playing. If press thats been covering the game fails to get it, your general themeparker who has no clue how different it is, I'm worried how many "bads" there really is gonna be.
It's one section of one dungeon played by a group of people so new to the game they really had no business in a Dungeon, beyond the exopectation that they cover it as part of the Press Beta.
I think Arenanet made a mistake making the Press Beta such a short event. A week, or even 4-5 days, would have allowed the press to better aclimate to the game and would have allowed for sleep and breaks for those who really made an effort to get the most possible out of the very limited 48 hour window.
Also, for this particular Dungeon run, documented in the Yogscast Dungeon videos, I have to say that the NCSoft and Arenanet employees who made up two of the five group members really did the game a huge dis-service as well. They were so concerned about not "spoiling" the dungeon that they didn't contribute much beyond facerolling to the group experience. They could have made the whole thing more enjoyable and less frustrating by actually playing as people experienced with the dungeon would be expected to play it.
I think the Achille's heel, so far, for Arenanet is that while they are awesome game designers, they are lacking in Public Relations. They should have asked full access closed beta participants to go out of their way to be guides, mentors and group mates for members of the press over that weekend and should have instructed them to be as helpful as possible in guiding them to adapt quickly to GW2 game play, given the very short window.
For Dungeons? I'd have given them one shot to figure it out themselves, then would have shown them exactly how to do it if they had failed. It's one section of one dungeon, it's not like "spoiling" the solutions would have spoiled the game.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Not everyone working for ArenaNet/NCSoft are like that. Exhibit A
I didn't say they were all like that, or most like that, or even many like that. However, it seems either nothing was done to encourage and ensure plenty of in game support for members of the press, or some people just didn't get the memo.
The press should have all received the V.I.P. treatment in order to maximize the experience during the greatly compressed schedule.
It wasn't just Dungeons, but WvW as well, where the permanent testers seemed more concerned about crushing the server the press were assigned to, rather than providing the press with opportunities to experience progress and expansion.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Even with traps, diferent combat mechanics and such, GW2 dungeons design isnt really much diferent from the other mmos. And thats why i think theyre there just to please the ones who like instanced PvE. I can see myself doing those a couple of times and only that.
It isnt really that absurd somebody dont liking at least one game content, even more if it has something to do with their own limitation. Expect to see much more of that when it releases.
If they(press) were really carried by ANet devs, probably we would be discussing now how easy dungeons are.
Yeah. All-in-all, it's probably better for people to have left with the impression that dungeons are too hard rather than too easy. I think more people would be turned off by the latter than the former.
I dont consider my friends or myself as hardcore players. Not anymore anyway. We just expect and welcome challenging encounters in MMO's. So for us the mix that Arenanet seems to offer in GW2 sounds good.
As for the other players. Im positive that most of them will be able to complete the dungeons in storymode after playing the game for a while. But yeah, exploration mode might stay too difficult for some of them. So it is possible that Arenanet makes it easier after a while, but knowing them, they would introduce an ultrahard mode at the same time
Short sighted complaint, and emotionally charged due to people calling him out.
there are a wide variation of dungeons in the game, so far only two are actual "dungeons" underground. also, he says all that shit about creativity, yet the writeup of the dungeon on this front page lists many more "imaginative" features than what's found in Deadmines in WoW.
it's pretty much just a QQ post.