I was really upset at myself for having spent 60 dollars on this and buying the hype
You played EQ1. You've been a member at this site for several years. This suggests you are a MMO vet. Still you haven't learned never to trust hypes? No rude intentions, but I can't feel sorry for you.
THIS.
Really people just STOP buying into hype - I heard dozens of times from many people complaining that they bought box (p2p games) or spent money in cash shop (f2p games) and then quit after few weeks tops cause game was just so bad.
RESEARCH FIRST and stop playing crap games.
Simple.
That means really playing very few titles (even counting SP games) and I guess some ppl can't stand that?
People buying into hype will never stop, it's been going on for years. When Studebaker hit the auto market with their car back in 1952 it was hyped, people bought into them, they were trashy cars though.
1) Clueless decisions makers from Bioware up to LA
2) Poor design decisions and some designers with a way too big ego.
Also a lead designer left/got fired sometime during the middle of development
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni ( o.o) (")(") **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
I was really upset at myself for having spent 60 dollars on this and buying the hype
You played EQ1. You've been a member at this site for several years. This suggests you are a MMO vet.
Still you haven't learned never to trust hypes?
No rude intentions, but I can't feel sorry for you.
THIS.
Really people just STOP buying into hype - I heard dozens of times from many people complaining that they bought box (p2p games) or spent money in cash shop (f2p games) and then quit after few weeks tops cause game was just so bad.
RESEARCH FIRST and stop playing crap games.
Simple.
That means really playing very few titles (even counting SP games) and I guess some ppl can't stand that?
People buying into hype will never stop, it's been going on for years. When Studebaker hit the auto market with their car back in 1952 it was hyped, people bought into them, they were trashy cars though.
Stop. Of course it wont stop.
It can happen to lesser degree though.
Hype train is currently stronger in genre than it was let's say 5-7 years ago. It can be bit lesser again.
Even if people are just a small BIT less prone to hype - it is still better.
For instance; in the early levels the instances are easy to run and you don't need to CC anything to succeed. I really enjoyed it up until around level 30+
In the later levels, you basically have to CC everything down to one mob and kill one mob at a time in order to get through the levels.
Welcome to EQ 1 all over again.
After playing EQ for so long, I can't do this playstyle anymore. Especially after having played through Rift, and enjoyed the fast paced combat.
Not to mention so much CC never transfers well into PVP... I hated PVP in this game. Probably the worst PVP I've ever played in an MMO. I wish I could have got my money back really, it was that bad.
You don't even understand how bad this game is... I was really upset at myself for having spent 60 dollars on this and buying the hype when I could have took that 60 dollars and spent it on something I'd actually enjoy.
This game isn't just going in my junk pile, I'm going to fucking burn it.
Shadowbane, Hellgate London, Tabula Rasa all gets cancelled, and you guys let this game live on? REALLY?
They developed a trade skill that... gives you money. THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN A WARNING SIGN WHY DIDN'T I SEE IT!
worst part is, SW:TOR isnt even as good as SWG was after the NGE hit it... makes you think really, how did they get it so badly wrong?
I second this. It almost made me miss the NGE after a while, almost.
Long list of folks I work with who have slowly become disappointed and stopped playing SWTOR. I really didn't think; and did not want this to happen with TOR. I told everyone I knew this game was gonna kick some ass when it launched and they should drop WoW and other games now for TOR..... It has left me saying what and the hell just happened?
Can't say that I agree with anything the op said. What kills most games is a lack of content for people who live on their computers and should most likely pick up some other hobbies, and quite possibly a job. After a playthrough of SWTOR I could see lots of people leaving (since the story ends), and those coming in expecting too much may very well have fled early on. At the beach on my phone
1) Clueless decisions makers from Bioware up to LA
2) Poor design decisions and some designers with a way too big ego.
Also a lead designer left/got fired sometime during the middle of development
Are you speaking about Gordon because if it's him would have been better to never have him in the the dev team at all considering the failed space shooter he delivered.
I was really upset at myself for having spent 60 dollars on this and buying the hype
You played EQ1. You've been a member at this site for several years. This suggests you are a MMO vet.
Still you haven't learned never to trust hypes?
No rude intentions, but I can't feel sorry for you.
Indeed. I can't believe there are still so many mmorpg vets that are suckers and preorder mmorpgs. So many shitty launches in the past, so many shitty mmorpgs that followed. The lesson should be clear...wait at least a couple days after launch if not months to see if the game sounds like it's worth buying. Suckers spending 60 dollars on this shit is the reason we get this type of shit in the first place.
So my vision doesn't count? And my new guildies are my imagination? The Republic fleet has been steadily growing in pop. for the past week or so. It is funny that those sites weren't accurate when the numbers were growing. Now that they show a decrease, it is accurate right?
I don't know what bullshit 'fanboys' and 'haters' have been throwing around in here over time, but SW:ToR definitely has a shrinking population and has had so since after the initial sales boom. Local increases don't count for a lot. My guild went from 5 members to 90 in 2 months in GW1 in 2008, but that was after all the expansions, when work was being done on GW2 The whole game hadn't drastically increased in playercount just because my guild saw an 18x increase in size.
But, indeed, like the poster said, it's not dead and wont be for a long time.
Every MMO sees a decrease in activity after the initial month or two.
Not true. Not even close. LOTRO didn't. Took years. WoW took even longer. Eve keeps growing. Lineage and Lineage II grew for years and year and years before losing players.
And there are more examples to disprove this old canard.
None of the games you listed got even close to the amount of players for SWTOR, even after the 'massive loss of players' in SWTOR it still has way more than LOTRO or EVE have ever had.
The only other Pay to Play MMOs that even sold close to what SWTOR has since WoW were AoC and Hellgate: London with 1 million each, and they lost way more subscribers than SWTOR did.
Eve currently has around 350k active subs, and while SW:TOR has more currently, its not by a huge amount, maybe in another month it may even be less than Eve. we shall see. but either way, its definitely not a number that Bioware/EA can brag about.
And how many years it took eve to get that many players? EVE didn't release with 300K subs. This comparison doesn't even make sense.
You're assuming that SWTOR will actually grow with time. But I honestly doubt that.
Nearly every game that has copied that WoW model has only gone one way in terms of subs since release...and that's down. I just don't see what is going to be different about SWTOR on this frontier.
And the server pop data already shows that the servers are MUCH less populated than they were at release.
If you keep comapring every MMO to success of WOW then not a single MMO is going to be successful. Not even in near future. Does that mean all MMOS based on WOW model have been a failure? nope. WOW is 7 years old and Rift is one of the best example to show that this model still works and is profitable.
You are assuming too that SWTOR wouldn't grow..but to see whose assumption is right we have to wait for atleast couple of years.
They decided to put out a game with technology that is out of date. If this were 2004-2006 it would be innovative.
All they did was add in the "Lie Wheel" which is Bioware's crappy creation anyway. The Voice acting is useless and a tool for tools who don't like to read. As far as immersion the spacebar works just fine.
And for those who say the voice acting immerses you in the Star Wars universe I have to laugh... That's like saying because you played Monopoly before your feel what it's like to be a banker...
TOR is not dead, but i will say this. Star Wars is way to big to be shoehorned into the format that Bioware created. The game should have been more open and should of had league's more of depth. The VO and cutscenes were good but were over used. Bioware must not know that even to much of a good thing can be bad. There were many things that Bioware left out that could have immersed a player into the Old Republic era . Basically, TOR is a run and kill game that shuttles you from planet to planet when it could have been so much more.
So my vision doesn't count? And my new guildies are my imagination? The Republic fleet has been steadily growing in pop. for the past week or so. It is funny that those sites weren't accurate when the numbers were growing. Now that they show a decrease, it is accurate right?
I don't know what bullshit 'fanboys' and 'haters' have been throwing around in here over time, but SW:ToR definitely has a shrinking population and has had so since after the initial sales boom. Local increases don't count for a lot. My guild went from 5 members to 90 in 2 months in GW1 in 2008, but that was after all the expansions, when work was being done on GW2 The whole game hadn't drastically increased in playercount just because my guild saw an 18x increase in size.
But, indeed, like the poster said, it's not dead and wont be for a long time.
Every MMO sees a decrease in activity after the initial month or two.
Not true. Not even close. LOTRO didn't. Took years. WoW took even longer. Eve keeps growing. Lineage and Lineage II grew for years and year and years before losing players.
And there are more examples to disprove this old canard.
None of the games you listed got even close to the amount of players for SWTOR, even after the 'massive loss of players' in SWTOR it still has way more than LOTRO or EVE have ever had.
The only other Pay to Play MMOs that even sold close to what SWTOR has since WoW were AoC and Hellgate: London with 1 million each, and they lost way more subscribers than SWTOR did.
Eve currently has around 350k active subs, and while SW:TOR has more currently, its not by a huge amount, maybe in another month it may even be less than Eve. we shall see. but either way, its definitely not a number that Bioware/EA can brag about.
And how many years it took eve to get that many players? EVE didn't release with 300K subs. This comparison doesn't even make sense.
You're assuming that SWTOR will actually grow with time. But I honestly doubt that.
Nearly every game that has copied that WoW model has only gone one way in terms of subs since release...and that's down. I just don't see what is going to be different about SWTOR on this frontier.
And the server pop data already shows that the servers are MUCH less populated than they were at release.
If you keep comapring every MMO to success of WOW then not a single MMO is going to be successful. Not even in near future. Does that mean all MMOS based on WOW model have been a failure? nope. WOW is 7 years old and Rift is one of the best example to show that this model still works and is profitable.
You are assuming too that SWTOR wouldn't grow..but to see whose assumption is right we have to wait for atleast couple of years.
I can't say whether Rift was successful or not in terms of if it generated a sufficient return for its investors. But we're not talking about success here, we're talking about growth.
And Rift definitely has not grown. In fact, it has less than half the subs now as at had it release. See the graph here:
Also, I want to point out that all of the major "WoW-based" games that came out since 2008 in the west (except for SWTOR because it's so recent), are now below Eve's number of subs. And Eve is an extremely niche game. The fact that these mainstream big budget games are consistently beat out by a niche space game, with gameplay that is oftentimes compared to a spreadsheet should tell you something.
Let me just go ahead and /thread this for everyone.
What really killed this game? NOTHING. It is still doing fine and tons of people are playing it. It will not die anytime soon no matter how much certain vocal people on these forums want it to.
We get that you don't like the game, but that does not mean that it is dead. You cannot stop people from enjoying the game just because you personally are disappointed by it. I suggest that you all try to find some game that you actually DO enjoy rather than waste any more of your time on this forum. Oh, that's right... there aren't any games you actually like. That must really suck.
Didn't you know, this forum is for people to whine about every single game, every game I see people cry about the new game they bought and hated, i'm in school for game design and I can tell you this, I would not make an MMO to save my life, because gamers cry way to much about the dumbest things and whine just whine, there is way more money in smaller Iphone games, and alot less whining, I see why all of the new people going to school for game design hate MMo,s because of the people..
Not to mention so much CC never transfers well into PVP...
While I support the notion that SWTOR is garbage, only scrubs complain about CC in PvP. Whenever you can't reliably CC, PvP gets dumbed down to who gets the jump (1v1) or which side has more bombing/healing (mass).
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
No it rewards WoW clone after WoW clone with profit. Most people who buy them don't play over the long term but they do buy them time after time.
have to agree if they didn't make any money developers would simply not make these games. Although obviously they aren't a rousing success like many people hope they will be doesn't mean they don't make the companies money. SWTOR was just so hyped about how expensive it was to make and how it would need 500k sub's to turn a profit. I'm sure with Rift at 200k sub's or whatever it's at currently it's still making the company a good amount of money. As long as the masses keep buying this stuff developers will keep making it much like Call of Duty series
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Let me just go ahead and /thread this for everyone.
What really killed this game? NOTHING. It is still doing fine and tons of people are playing it. It will not die anytime soon no matter how much certain vocal people on these forums want it to.
We get that you don't like the game, but that does not mean that it is dead. You cannot stop people from enjoying the game just because you personally are disappointed by it. I suggest that you all try to find some game that you actually DO enjoy rather than waste any more of your time on this forum. Oh, that's right... there aren't any games you actually like. That must really suck.
Didn't you know, this forum is for people to whine about every single game, every game I see people cry about the new game they bought and hated, i'm in school for game design and I can tell you this, I would not make an MMO to save my life, because gamers cry way to much about the dumbest things and whine just whine, there is way more money in smaller Iphone games, and alot less whining, I see why all of the new people going to school for game design hate MMo,s because of the people..
They whine and whine about everything...
No kidding. Being an MMO developer has got to be the most thankless job there is because your audience consists of so many people who never grew up and want everything right now. They're never satisfied with anything because there is only so much resources that can be used to create a game and not everything can be included. Even though there is DOZENS of MMORPGS available with many more along the way, including some that are NOTHING like TOR, they are still never satisfied. I guarentee you the people here fawning all over GW2, Tera, and some the other new releases will be all over those boards trashing those games even after NDA breaks or after release.
I actually don't want to play hellgate london. The new version is an abomination, and doesn't have hardcore mode.
I believed the hype because it was Bioware... Bioware has NEVER done me wrong. Okay, Mass Effect 2 was meh... but never before that!
It's like a girl who promised me sex, who had always delivered on past promises... She still had sex with me, but this time she had gained a lot of weight and she had an std.
One thing that is important to realize is that this game was NOT made by the same people who made NWN, Jade Empire, Dragon Age, BG, KOTOR....
It was made by Bioware AUSTIN, a new Texas studio founded solely to create SWTOR. The main Bioware office is in Canada, so it's likely that most people at the Austin office are not from the Canada office because of the distance.
And now it's even worse. There are EIGHT separate "Bioware" studios in EA now. Many of them just "rebranded" versions of EA's other crappy studios.
To me, the REAL Bioware is in Edmonton, Canada. Everything else is just some other studio that has been branded with the Bioware name. I will no longer trust a game with the "Bioware" name on it to actually be made by the development studio I know and love because of EA's deceptive branding shenanigans. And it actually pisses me off.
That is the thing that concerns me most. EA is basically just wanting to take the Bioware brand name. Now hey, I don't blame BW for what they did. All of those individuals are very wealthy men now, and their grandchildren yet unborn are secure. They twice rebooted the RPG genre on the PC.
It was obvious for example that DA2, while saying "Bioware", it wasn't the same people down the line who made the first DA or any of the previous Bioware games. It is also why for Dragon Age 3, they are returning (or so they claim) to their more classical style of combat. We will see if EA lets them.
I think he means based on what EA was expecting. You don't have 120 servers for this kind of population. While they could technically limp along at 500k subscribers, they said it would be "nothing to write home about." In other words, it really would be a failure, considering the 200 mill+ budget they had to work with on this. A thriving game doesn't have a substantial very vocal minority calling for server mergers within the first 3 months.
I still say it is pointless to really trend anything in the short term. TOR is hitting an important benchmark soon, and a month after 1.2, we can then start to take an assesment if this game will rebound, or head to F2Pville.
Comments
1) Clueless decisions makers from Bioware up to LA
2) Poor design decisions and some designers with a way too big ego.
Also a lead designer left/got fired sometime during the middle of development
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
( o.o)
(")(")
**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
Launch
Stop. Of course it wont stop.
It can happen to lesser degree though.
Hype train is currently stronger in genre than it was let's say 5-7 years ago. It can be bit lesser again.
Even if people are just a small BIT less prone to hype - it is still better.
I second this. It almost made me miss the NGE after a while, almost.
Long list of folks I work with who have slowly become disappointed and stopped playing SWTOR. I really didn't think; and did not want this to happen with TOR. I told everyone I knew this game was gonna kick some ass when it launched and they should drop WoW and other games now for TOR..... It has left me saying what and the hell just happened?
[Mod Edit]
There was a Cornell study that said that people who don't get it, don't get that they don't get it.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/01/18/MN73840.DTL
Are you speaking about Gordon because if it's him would have been better to never have him in the the dev team at all considering the failed space shooter he delivered.
You should go read the official forums...
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Indeed. I can't believe there are still so many mmorpg vets that are suckers and preorder mmorpgs. So many shitty launches in the past, so many shitty mmorpgs that followed. The lesson should be clear...wait at least a couple days after launch if not months to see if the game sounds like it's worth buying. Suckers spending 60 dollars on this shit is the reason we get this type of shit in the first place.
I knew it!
Great find, I bookmarked that article, it explains everything! LOL!
Finally, the answer to why the biggest, blithering idiots always sport the largest shit eating grins.
One more reason to dread the future of humanity.
If you keep comapring every MMO to success of WOW then not a single MMO is going to be successful. Not even in near future. Does that mean all MMOS based on WOW model have been a failure? nope. WOW is 7 years old and Rift is one of the best example to show that this model still works and is profitable.
You are assuming too that SWTOR wouldn't grow..but to see whose assumption is right we have to wait for atleast couple of years.
What killed this game was the developers.
They decided to put out a game with technology that is out of date. If this were 2004-2006 it would be innovative.
All they did was add in the "Lie Wheel" which is Bioware's crappy creation anyway. The Voice acting is useless and a tool for tools who don't like to read. As far as immersion the spacebar works just fine.
And for those who say the voice acting immerses you in the Star Wars universe I have to laugh... That's like saying because you played Monopoly before your feel what it's like to be a banker...
TOR is not dead, but i will say this. Star Wars is way to big to be shoehorned into the format that Bioware created. The game should have been more open and should of had league's more of depth. The VO and cutscenes were good but were over used. Bioware must not know that even to much of a good thing can be bad. There were many things that Bioware left out that could have immersed a player into the Old Republic era . Basically, TOR is a run and kill game that shuttles you from planet to planet when it could have been so much more.
I can't say whether Rift was successful or not in terms of if it generated a sufficient return for its investors. But we're not talking about success here, we're talking about growth.
And Rift definitely has not grown. In fact, it has less than half the subs now as at had it release. See the graph here:
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
Also, I want to point out that all of the major "WoW-based" games that came out since 2008 in the west (except for SWTOR because it's so recent), are now below Eve's number of subs. And Eve is an extremely niche game. The fact that these mainstream big budget games are consistently beat out by a niche space game, with gameplay that is oftentimes compared to a spreadsheet should tell you something.
The market is tired of WoW clones.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Didn't you know, this forum is for people to whine about every single game, every game I see people cry about the new game they bought and hated, i'm in school for game design and I can tell you this, I would not make an MMO to save my life, because gamers cry way to much about the dumbest things and whine just whine, there is way more money in smaller Iphone games, and alot less whining, I see why all of the new people going to school for game design hate MMo,s because of the people..
They whine and whine about everything...
While I support the notion that SWTOR is garbage, only scrubs complain about CC in PvP. Whenever you can't reliably CC, PvP gets dumbed down to who gets the jump (1v1) or which side has more bombing/healing (mass).
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
have to agree if they didn't make any money developers would simply not make these games. Although obviously they aren't a rousing success like many people hope they will be doesn't mean they don't make the companies money. SWTOR was just so hyped about how expensive it was to make and how it would need 500k sub's to turn a profit. I'm sure with Rift at 200k sub's or whatever it's at currently it's still making the company a good amount of money. As long as the masses keep buying this stuff developers will keep making it much like Call of Duty series
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
No kidding. Being an MMO developer has got to be the most thankless job there is because your audience consists of so many people who never grew up and want everything right now. They're never satisfied with anything because there is only so much resources that can be used to create a game and not everything can be included. Even though there is DOZENS of MMORPGS available with many more along the way, including some that are NOTHING like TOR, they are still never satisfied. I guarentee you the people here fawning all over GW2, Tera, and some the other new releases will be all over those boards trashing those games even after NDA breaks or after release.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
That is the thing that concerns me most. EA is basically just wanting to take the Bioware brand name. Now hey, I don't blame BW for what they did. All of those individuals are very wealthy men now, and their grandchildren yet unborn are secure. They twice rebooted the RPG genre on the PC.
It was obvious for example that DA2, while saying "Bioware", it wasn't the same people down the line who made the first DA or any of the previous Bioware games. It is also why for Dragon Age 3, they are returning (or so they claim) to their more classical style of combat. We will see if EA lets them.
I think he means based on what EA was expecting. You don't have 120 servers for this kind of population. While they could technically limp along at 500k subscribers, they said it would be "nothing to write home about." In other words, it really would be a failure, considering the 200 mill+ budget they had to work with on this. A thriving game doesn't have a substantial very vocal minority calling for server mergers within the first 3 months.
I still say it is pointless to really trend anything in the short term. TOR is hitting an important benchmark soon, and a month after 1.2, we can then start to take an assesment if this game will rebound, or head to F2Pville.