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A Tear or What Might Have Been
Garvon3
Member CommonPosts: 2,898
I'm sure many of us remember the sandbox version of LotRO that Turbine was advertising up until about a year before the LotRO release. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk0ogD_HMn0
After giving LotRO yet another try, I grew frustrated at how linear and gated it was. I tried to get to Angmar just to explore, and managed to get quite deep with my level 18 character. I got by almost all the mobs and was close to the interesting bits when a stone suddenly insta killed me. Apparently the game has been fitted with so many artificial barrier to prevent people from exploring places they shouldn't be yet. The game told me I wasn't strong enough and bam, back to bind stone.
I also recently tried to follow the Brandywine River into the Old Forest. The map shows it leading directly in but... invisible wall.
That's all I seem to run into in this game. Artificial barriers, invisible walls, mountains you can't cross that shouldn't be in the locations they are in.
So, for all of you who were are still are, hoping for a Middle Earth without barriers, let's have a moment to watch that trailer and remember the good old days before Turbine reconfigured MEO into a WoW clone. Let's remember the days when we dreamed of being able to walk the path the Fellowship took without being forced to complete hundreds of pointless "quests" first.
/venting done.
Comments
I am constantly amazed at how many free passes LotRO seems to get from the MMO community, and how it is generally regarded as one of the best MMOs out there, when they have moronic features like this in place. The only thing worse than a closed world is a closed world that tries to pretend its open, thus calling attention to all its invisible walls. I mean seriously, what MMO shouts "YOU CANNOT ENTER THIS CAVE WITHOUT X QUEST" when you try to enter? Immersion breaking much?
Darkfall Travelogues!
that stone in angmar has always been there, actually there are a few of those big statues that you have to finish a quest before you can get by them. it's not gating you because you are level 18, just part of a quest. if you haven't finished the quest it will insta kill level 75's too. not sure about the river though, haven't tried it, but I have played lotro off and on for years, before and after it went ftp and I am pretty certain they didn't add any invisible walls at all, any invisible walls have always been there as far as i know.
The fact that they've always been there doesn't change the fact that it's pretty lazy slipshod game design.
Darkfall Travelogues!
So your saying, because themeparks appeal to people with lower standards, then the lower standards of game design seen in LotRO get a free pass? Bah. I'm tired of the themepark fans that hide behind "But it's not a sandbox!" as an excuse as to why their games aren't made well. I think that's one of the things that bugs me the most. You can scream "The world doesn't make any sense!" and they go "it doesn't have to, its a themepark!" but... wouldn't the world making sense ADD to their experience? Wouldn't being able to enter any dungeon make the world seem more believable? It just confuses me, it's all so backwards... I wish LotRO had just stayed with being a sandbox. I too am depressed over the notion that I'll never be able to just walk around Middle Earth where I please. I guess exploration is something I should add to my box of "features we'll never see in a AAA MMO post WoW".
Darkfall Travelogues!
Im saying that people playing LOTRO are getting exacly what they WANT. These people dont even like PvP you know. There is no PvP in LOTRO. It has gone so far away from a real MMO like EvE that there is no point anymore. The game does what it does REALLY WELL... I bet all of them are happy that they get that TEXT and cant go Into that dungeon. Get what im saying? What you see as a problem they see as something GOOD.. and something they WANT...
They are happy.. that is why I recomend LOTRO to all Themepark goers... Its an exellent game if that is all you want out of the experince...
For me I just cannot fathom in what universe someone could see that text outside and instance and NOT get annoyed. I guess it's born of ignorance? They just assume all MMOs are that clunky in their execution?
I have played LOTRO and enjoyed it. Just as I played EQ, EQ2, Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE, Rift and several others and enjoyed them. I enjoyed them for what they were - entertainment. Was LOTRO the best? No. Was it the Worst? Again no. I think in my opinion the worst game I have played was Mortal online, and that is just my opinion... read a thread today where people were posting about how much they enjoyed it, it doesn't appeal to me, but then it doesn't have to. Many people love Wow, I don't. what's that mean - that different people like different stuff. If you have tried LOTRO and don't like it - don't play it... but don't disparage the people who do like it. I don't like spinach but I don't say the people who do are less than me. They are just different. To be truthful, my favorite MMO is a game I cannot seem to play for long periods of time... because it frustrates me. That is EVE. Shadowbane was another favorite, I guees I was among the few that did because that game is gone now. Am I less of a MMO player because I liked it? Don't think so. This thread reminds me of an old saying: You can please some of the pople all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you cannot please all of the people all of the time. Find the game you like and play it, those who are playing LOTRO are doing just that.
Currently bored with MMO's.
That's just the thing though. There are many parts of LotRO that I'd argue are OBJECTIVELY bad. There is always a way to objectively rate something, else there'd be no point in reviewing games, reviewing movies, reviewing dining places. In LotRO, which advertises itself as an MMO, I'd say it ultimately fails at doing that, according to the original definition for MMOs. It's way too solo focused and there's no open virtual world.
For what it is, a "themepark" game (let's all call it by its true name, WoW clone, I'm tired of it being politically incorrect to say WoW clone), it does SOME things well. It's quests are written better than most other themepark games, but there are parts that are still just all around bad. It does not sell the believability of its world, which it tries SO HARD to do. In fact, it tries so hard that it starts to hurt itself. By instancing nearly everything and gating so much of the content, they make it seem more like a game than a world, and once you start seeing the strings being tugged, it all falls to pieces. Suddenly, all the good writing in the world won't disguise those quests from what they are, tasks. Tasks meant to draw out the time you pay a subscription.
well it is solo focused now - it wasn't always. When it launched it was a lot harder. Here's the thing though - it is US the players of any game who determine how hard a game stays. Eventually LOTRO was changed because many players thought it was too hard. Volume 1 Book 1, chapter 11 is a great example. When the game started it was a full group quest and often you needed either a player who was several levels higher or who had played the quest before to get it without any or all of the group dying. When I last played the game you could solo it with ease. That is the fault of people crying over how hard the game is, because they would not have changted it without that. Just Saying.
Currently bored with MMO's.
Things usually change from group to solo when the game starts losing too many players that the base now has to skip group quests because you can not find a group. They do not want to waste the content so they make it soloable.
I played the game in alpha, beta, launch, and again recently. It's ALWAYS been solo centric. Grinding quests was ALWAYS the fastest (only) way to level up, and grinding quests as a GROUP is hard. Keeping everyone on the same step, with the same quests? No, much easier to just solo. Early LotRO rewarded dedicated groups that always played together, because they'd all be on the same steps all the time, but it was nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find pick up groups unless you found standalone group quests.
When the only socializing the playerbase is doing, is when they're forced to do group quests, there's no real social element to a game.
Well that's what happens when you aim for the WOW audience. They're used to everything being easy so, they demand you make everything easy in every game. IT happened in AoC and WAR as well. But let's be honest, LotRO was always made with the casual solo player in mind.
Been playing it almost as long and I don't really agree. Mostly I was in kinships - so getting a group together was not a problem. I think the basic difference and what might have colored the game for you was that you wanted sandbox and it was never that. I am sorry you didn't like it, it entertained me for a long time. The first part of the end was free to play and the last part was the last "expansion". Perhaps the one company who I think knows how to make a game - the people behind EVE will make another game and we can both enjoy it. Till then - I hope you find one you like. Peace.
Currently bored with MMO's.
YOU.....
SHALL NOT.....
PASS!
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
there is that.
Currently bored with MMO's.
Oh but it was that. In alpha. It was advertised as a sandbox for 80% of its development time. My main issue I suppose is I come from MMOs where you didn't need guilds or kinships to find groups. People just grouped with other people. At random, in the wilderness, to socialize. The game mechanics for LotRO pretty much force you to group only with people you're already friends with. It's a cyclic problem that only exists because the game is solo focused, and attracts other solo focused players. But, I too hope we'll find a game we can enjoy, thanks for the words.
It's not so much the player control that's annoying but the complete lack of effort from MMO devs when putting up these invisible barriers or arbitrary deathtraps. Other video game developers have figured out immersive ways to direct players while maintaining the illusion of an open world since the frigging 80s. Metroid had bomb blocks and flying enemies which had to be frozen with the ice beam and used as platforms to progress. Zelda had room puzzles based on abilities you got throughout the game linked to unlockable doors. Final Fantasy had things like hills or rivers which could only be crossed with special items. So there's really no excuse that in 2012, some AAA game devs are still doing nonsense like surround areas by an arbitrary invisible barrier.
we can always hope. Think I might be going back to EVE though. Not sure if you like that one. Tried Rift and it was more soloable than LoTRO. GW2 doesn't look appealing to me, and TSW .. well I want to like it and forcing myself to like a game has never worked. So looks like EVE.
Currently bored with MMO's.
I'm afraid that Turbine went for the cheap cash grab with LotRO, rather than a slow burn serious MMO. If they had wanted a solid compelling game, they probably wouldn't have fired/relocated most of their Middle Earth Online vet devs, replace them with college aged devs, and redone the game a year before launch. I don't know if everyone got this vibe, but I was a heavy pressence on the MEO forums and I met Turbine several times over the course of development. There was a complete tone shift after they announced LotRO. They stopped feeling like passionate devs making things they love and started to feel like corporate cogs. They even stopped doing their annual fanfair.
Many of my friends play Eve, and while I enjoy it, and enjoy what it tries to do, it seems like to get the most out of that game you have to totally commit and invest yourself. All the fun interesting bits take a lot of effort and dedication to the game world. But, I find the actual game part of Eve a bit too boring to dedicate myself to it. I'd prefer joystick style combat, even if Eve's system is more realistic. I did enjoy the econ aspect quite a bit though.
We're not trying to pretend that that trailer was anything but a generic MMORPG trailer, right? I mean maybe back when Turbine was making MEO they were calling it a sandbox, but certainly nothing in that trailer sticks out as overtly sandbox -- I'd bet most of the stuff in that trailer actually exists in modern LOTRO.
I mean invisible barriers can be pretty bad (the ones where it looks like you should be able to explore somewhere; not necessarily the ones where there's an obvious instance portal with a prerequisite.) But that's true regardless of what type of game we're discussing.
That said, I don't remember noticing an abnormal amount of invisible walls in LOTRO (though I admittedly only reached level ~25 a couple times.) But I also didn't approach the game as some completely safe world to completely explore at level 10 either, so that might factor into it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
well my main character is a miner with a good barge - so there is that sense of impending doom that I never get from games anymore. It was what I liked about Shadowbane. We used to do farming mobs with 2 groups in that game - 1 to farm the mobs and 1 to protect those farming from the other players.
Currently bored with MMO's.
The trailer was just to stave off the inevitable screams of "What, LotRO was never called Middle Earth Online! You're making that up!" that comes up whenever I mentioned MEO. No, most of the sandbox information came from the Friday dev diaries and the private play tests. My favorite was Keeper's dev diary about how they were going to handle mountain ranges.
In any case, I discovered more invisible walls in playing 3 days of LotRO than in any other MMO I've played to date. Except maybe WAR. But, that's mostly because I don't play themepark/WoW clones, and I am used to being able to travel just about anywhere so long as I can avoid agro.