I have not read the whole thread, but guild wars progression is fairly unique. You hit the max level extremely fast, but you are still able to learn new skills just be doing quests, missions, and defeating bosses. These skills are not necessarily better, but they might fit your playstyle more or fit more appropriate for certain situations.
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
RPGs are not what you think they are.
Yes they are? That's why nearly every RPG has followed that pattern of levels or skills and exp and being about character power and not player skill. Its nice that you can post a one liner without support but at least try for an example. WoW, UO, EQ, every WoW clone ever follow the pattern I described.
If you truly and really believe that, you are misguided.
If RPGs are solely based on dice-rolls, and by that i mean -SOLELY-, then i will eat a copy of Baldurs Gate, on camera, with no milk to wash it down.
Even in the most hardcore RPGs there is something like player skill, actually -especially- in the hardcore RPGs. Using the right spells, the right powers, the right positioning, is imperative to win, and yes, thats also SKILL. Even pressing the right buttons at the right time in WoW requires some degree of skill. Micromanaging your party in an encounter requires skill.
But of course you are not talking about that, because that would be silly and crazytalk.
Instead you treat one type of skill as the "proper RPG skill" and the other skill like manual aiming, dodging and clicking to shoot at the right time as "eeeeew icky FPS!!!! GTFO MY RPGS!!!" while both are actually -equal- as gameplay mechanics.
What is the difference between:
a. activating the "Kick" skill on a Rogue in WoW to interrupt spellcasting
b. using "Kick" in Dark Messiah of Might And Magic (eeeew FPS action crap) to interrupt spellcasting
There is none.
Both need to be executed at the right time to interrupt the spell, both need you to press a button.
Both need skill.
The DEFINING FEATURE of RPGs is character skill. Not the only feature. Please gain reading comprehension. In fact the original RPGs, boardgames or PnP did not have any of those features you describe. Those were added later. And the most popular RPGs focus on tab targetting.
We could easily model a system for dodging which accurately represents the player contributions you listed. Player doding in RPGs is mainly useful because AI is dumb as fuck because if AI is smart players whine about cheating. We could model dodging as a series of dice roles and directives.
If such and such monster{
callrng();
playerdodge()
if is 10th time player fight monster{
add a bonus to character to dodge in the "proper" direction;
}
}
There is a representation of "player skill". The reason we don't do that is that it is computationally efficient to relegate that role to the "organic CPUs" which participate in the game.
In fact original RPG games and even some modern mmos, hell even league of legends, have a dodge stat and a hit stat.
Player skill features were important to MMORPGs from non RPG games. Hell Final Fantasy didn't even have real time fighting and its one of the most popular RPGs ever.
Also, did you know that most games that are not pure PvP are designed to have a particular win %?
Players are happiest when the computer sets them up to win 70% of the time. That leaves just enough failure to convince them their decisions matter.
There is a reason that really long term activities in MMOs only raise stats instead of making smarter mobs. This is the same technique used in RTS games where they only give the AI more starting res instead of making them play more intelligently.
The designers of Civilization explicitly reveal this as a design decision based on player research. Making AI smarter instead of giving them higher numbers leads to violent range and cries of hax and cheatz!
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
You are seriously missing the point now because for some odd reason you are mad as hell atm.
I'm not asking to change the gameplay like you seem to imply, just to have a leveling system where the gained power is not so ridicilous compared between a handful of levels. I dont really understand how your ranting about RPG's being about the character or even mentioning FPS or twitch based games has anything at all to do with that.
I am not angry. Maybe mildly annoyed.
If that is what you meant you should have said so. You said and this is a direct quote, advancement based on your pool of abilities. And that leads to flavor of the month.
You also made comments about a "good" player and a "bad" player which is where twitch comes in. RPGs are inherently based on CHARACTER SKILLS and not PLAYER SKILLS. Thus a "good" player is one with a character with high level skills. Did you mean a player who makes smart decisions? Because that is all about either mathcrafting or twitch. So which one did you mean by "good"? A min maxer who deals with picking the ideal spec and skill set, or someone with twitch?
Do you just want a low capped level system ala guildwars? Because that means that advancement is based on flavor of the month skill picks, just like guild wars is. Certain skills are almost always better with the occassional FOTM when someone does some mathcrafting on a new skill.
You have failed to list a method which is less arbitrary than levels or skill levels or min maxing skill selection which is not twitch. So that is why I assume you refer to twitch.
Seriously, I dont know how you read what I write since you keep going in strange directions with your replies that has nothing to do with what I've been saying. I'll try once more, and please leave the FPS and/or twitch aspect out of this completely now, nothing that I say has anything to do with FPS or twitch gameplay, or class balance or any of that, only about the way of leveling (what the topic is about and what I've been trying to discuss).
I can only respond to what you type, I am not a telepath who can determine your intent with some weird brain magic.
So, we level in a standard themepark mmorpg. We gain not only abilities and talent points but also a ton of stats, along with new gear with a ton + truckload and a few cargoholds worth of stats. That means, while lvl10 player has 1000 hitpoints and does 100 dps, lvl20 player has 2000 hitpoints and does 200 dps along with having better talents and more abilities. When these two characters meet in the battlefield, it is pre-determined that lvl20 player wins no matter what.
If 2 humans meet on the field of battle it is predetermined to a high degree that the better skilled fighter will win. RPGs are about character skills. Thus the player with the character who has more skill will win. That is the nature of an RPG.
Is it a good system when it is decided before the battle takes place who wins it? What I'm saying is, introduce a system where everyone still gets levels because leveling is essential in RPG's, but instead 1000hp and 100dps VS. 2000hp and 200dps + more abilities and talents, give a system where it's more like 1000hp and 100dps VS. 1100hp and 110 dps PLUS the extra abilities and talents. AT LEAST the lvl10 player now would have a chance to defend himself against that higher level players, while in the current system he does not have any chance at all.
Who wins has already been determined in any contest before the players were even born. But even for people who do not understand how the universe functions we can say that who wins in a fight is determined as soon as the entrants are determined. The player who is better is pretty much assured to win even before the fight starts. This is somewhat changed by random factors, and by random we refer to either quantam fluctuations or deterministic factors which the players are just not capable of understanding but which were set in motion long before the fight. So when two characters are within a certain range of each other rng and human-simulated rng factors determine the winner.
In RPGs the best skilled character, because RPGS are about characters, is generally expected to win. Among even skill characters the winner is determined by randomness, either a random number generator or by a player who stands in as an unknowable and complex factor which cannot be measured.
So in fact RPGs are relatively good simulators of the practical effects of reality. This is a philosophical debate however and I don't expect to convince you because people are only convinced by true arguments when they already have an incentive to discard their previous beliefs, which you clearly don't.
Player skill merely means that you are not intelligent or informed enough to weigh all the factors properly and come to the correct conclusion. If we attempted to make RPGs even more like real life where we didn't have such static and obvious measurements of factors than players would whine like little babies that the game was unfair or that someone cheated, ironically this is a perfect example of what game designers mean when they say that making lifelike AI is not conducive to producing satisfied players. In games where AI act in such a way as to be as "random" "emergent" or "innovative" as human players and are not in fact cheating players perceive the AI to be cheating. In another amusing irony if we claim that a non cheating AI is a person and have a player play it the player does not perceive that their opponent cheated. Now isn't that interesting?
Also this would not make the "outleveled" areas complete waste of space for higher level players when there would still be some challenge, some gear perhaps to obtain and so on. Now there's no point in going back other than killing people in PvP that can do nothing else but die because the outcome of the fight is PRE-DETERMINED before the fight even starts.
Again the outcome of all fights are predetermined and you are just too ignorant to perceive the outcome. And I am not being elitist. There are many things that I am not capable of predicting. But I am able to recognize the reason for that and you clearly aren't. The ideal way to make games more realistic is to increase the number of factors so that the player is not able to tell whether a fight will be predetermined but then players will again whine like little babies that the AI cheated.
I'll quote my self from the previous post to summarize: "I'm not asking to change the gameplay like you seem to imply, just to have a leveling system where the gained power is not so ridicilous compared between a handful of levels." Now please do not bring any FPS or twitch aspect into this, I dont want to turn any RPG into some other type of game, just smoothen the ridicilously enormous level differences to smaller ones, NOT ONLY to give some point in players of different levels fighting eachothers instead of the current cat and mouse game, but also to make previously visited areas usable for players. TOR is a good example of one of the new mmorpgs where there is absolutely no point in going back to previous planets because the power curve of your char through leveling and gear is way too steep.
I know that you said you are not asking to change the gameplay. You might even believe that you aren't. That has nothing to do with the objective fact that none of your suggestions are viable and that to achieve your stated goals you would have to change the fundamental nature of RPGs. Did you know that people who have the most objective view of reality have both higher intelligence and significantly higher rates of depression. This is because we cannot lie to ourselves or fool ourselves like people who are ignorant of objective reality in order to make ourselves feel better. Indeed I don't expect you to change your mind, hell I would go back to being like you if I could possibly manage it, life is happier that way. Ignorance is bliss.
I have to get back to this also, you said this: "You also made comments about a "good" player and a "bad" player which is where twitch comes in. RPGs are inherently based on CHARACTER SKILLS and not PLAYER SKILLS." <- That is just wrong, make 2 EXACTLY similar characters with class gear everything exactly the same, and duel. The player who is better at the game will win every time. Bad players are clickers, they loose with equal gear on against non-clickers every time, it's player skills, not character skills. You can be a worse or better player on SO MANY levels in any RPG, through your knowledge of classes, better reflexes, PvP experience and so on and so on.
As I explained above, the human contribution in RPGs is to simulate variables so complex that they cannot be comprehended because games are designed by humans and are quite simple compared to reality so we need to add artificial chaos and randomness to games through RNG and human input to make it seem real.
I would say that I pity you for your ignorance but in fact I pity myself for my truth. I am explaining the world to you in the vain hope of converting you because misery loves company and people who believe as I do are quite rare. I blame suicide and lack of desire to bring a child into such a depressing world. Also social disfunction.
I still dont think that you are a troll, you just dont get it. The first step in "getting it" requires you to stop arguing stuff that is not there.
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
You are seriously missing the point now because for some odd reason you are mad as hell atm.
I'm not asking to change the gameplay like you seem to imply, just to have a leveling system where the gained power is not so ridicilous compared between a handful of levels. I dont really understand how your ranting about RPG's being about the character or even mentioning FPS or twitch based games has anything at all to do with that.
I am not angry. Maybe mildly annoyed.
If that is what you meant you should have said so. You said and this is a direct quote, advancement based on your pool of abilities. And that leads to flavor of the month.
You also made comments about a "good" player and a "bad" player which is where twitch comes in. RPGs are inherently based on CHARACTER SKILLS and not PLAYER SKILLS. Thus a "good" player is one with a character with high level skills. Did you mean a player who makes smart decisions? Because that is all about either mathcrafting or twitch. So which one did you mean by "good"? A min maxer who deals with picking the ideal spec and skill set, or someone with twitch?
Do you just want a low capped level system ala guildwars? Because that means that advancement is based on flavor of the month skill picks, just like guild wars is. Certain skills are almost always better with the occassional FOTM when someone does some mathcrafting on a new skill.
You have failed to list a method which is less arbitrary than levels or skill levels or min maxing skill selection which is not twitch. So that is why I assume you refer to twitch.
Seriously, I dont know how you read what I write since you keep going in strange directions with your replies that has nothing to do with what I've been saying. I'll try once more, and please leave the FPS and/or twitch aspect out of this completely now, nothing that I say has anything to do with FPS or twitch gameplay, or class balance or any of that, only about the way of leveling (what the topic is about and what I've been trying to discuss).
I can only respond to what you type, I am not a telepath who can determine your intent with some weird brain magic.
So, we level in a standard themepark mmorpg. We gain not only abilities and talent points but also a ton of stats, along with new gear with a ton + truckload and a few cargoholds worth of stats. That means, while lvl10 player has 1000 hitpoints and does 100 dps, lvl20 player has 2000 hitpoints and does 200 dps along with having better talents and more abilities. When these two characters meet in the battlefield, it is pre-determined that lvl20 player wins no matter what.
If 2 humans meet on the field of battle it is predetermined to a high degree that the better skilled fighter will win. RPGs are about character skills. Thus the player with the character who has more skill will win. That is the nature of an RPG.
Is it a good system when it is decided before the battle takes place who wins it? What I'm saying is, introduce a system where everyone still gets levels because leveling is essential in RPG's, but instead 1000hp and 100dps VS. 2000hp and 200dps + more abilities and talents, give a system where it's more like 1000hp and 100dps VS. 1100hp and 110 dps PLUS the extra abilities and talents. AT LEAST the lvl10 player now would have a chance to defend himself against that higher level players, while in the current system he does not have any chance at all.
Who wins has already been determined in any contest before the players were even born. But even for people who do not understand how the universe functions we can say that who wins in a fight is determined as soon as the entrants are determined. The player who is better is pretty much assured to win even before the fight starts. This is somewhat changed by random factors, and by random we refer to either quantam fluctuations or deterministic factors which the players are just not capable of understanding but which were set in motion long before the fight. So when two characters are within a certain range of each other rng and human-simulated rng factors determine the winner.
In RPGs the best skilled character, because RPGS are about characters, is generally expected to win. Among even skill characters the winner is determined by randomness, either a random number generator or by a player who stands in as an unknowable and complex factor which cannot be measured.
So in fact RPGs are relatively good simulators of the practical effects of reality. This is a philosophical debate however and I don't expect to convince you because people are only convinced by true arguments when they already have an incentive to discard their previous beliefs, which you clearly don't.
Player skill merely means that you are not intelligent or informed enough to weigh all the factors properly and come to the correct conclusion. If we attempted to make RPGs even more like real life where we didn't have such static and obvious measurements of factors than players would whine like little babies that the game was unfair or that someone cheated, ironically this is a perfect example of what game designers mean when they say that making lifelike AI is not conducive to producing satisfied players. In games where AI act in such a way as to be as "random" "emergent" or "innovative" as human players and are not in fact cheating players perceive the AI to be cheating. In another amusing irony if we claim that a non cheating AI is a person and have a player play it the player does not perceive that their opponent cheated. Now isn't that interesting?
Also this would not make the "outleveled" areas complete waste of space for higher level players when there would still be some challenge, some gear perhaps to obtain and so on. Now there's no point in going back other than killing people in PvP that can do nothing else but die because the outcome of the fight is PRE-DETERMINED before the fight even starts.
Again the outcome of all fights are predetermined and you are just too ignorant to perceive the outcome. And I am not being elitist. There are many things that I am not capable of predicting. But I am able to recognize the reason for that and you clearly aren't. The ideal way to make games more realistic is to increase the number of factors so that the player is not able to tell whether a fight will be predetermined but then players will again whine like little babies that the AI cheated.
I'll quote my self from the previous post to summarize: "I'm not asking to change the gameplay like you seem to imply, just to have a leveling system where the gained power is not so ridicilous compared between a handful of levels." Now please do not bring any FPS or twitch aspect into this, I dont want to turn any RPG into some other type of game, just smoothen the ridicilously enormous level differences to smaller ones, NOT ONLY to give some point in players of different levels fighting eachothers instead of the current cat and mouse game, but also to make previously visited areas usable for players. TOR is a good example of one of the new mmorpgs where there is absolutely no point in going back to previous planets because the power curve of your char through leveling and gear is way too steep.
I know that you said you are not asking to change the gameplay. You might even believe that you aren't. That has nothing to do with the objective fact that none of your suggestions are viable and that to achieve your stated goals you would have to change the fundamental nature of RPGs. Did you know that people who have the most objective view of reality have both higher intelligence and significantly higher rates of depression. This is because we cannot lie to ourselves or fool ourselves like people who are ignorant of objective reality in order to make ourselves feel better. Indeed I don't expect you to change your mind, hell I would go back to being like you if I could possibly manage it, life is happier that way. Ignorance is bliss.
I have to get back to this also, you said this: "You also made comments about a "good" player and a "bad" player which is where twitch comes in. RPGs are inherently based on CHARACTER SKILLS and not PLAYER SKILLS." <- That is just wrong, make 2 EXACTLY similar characters with class gear everything exactly the same, and duel. The player who is better at the game will win every time. Bad players are clickers, they loose with equal gear on against non-clickers every time, it's player skills, not character skills. You can be a worse or better player on SO MANY levels in any RPG, through your knowledge of classes, better reflexes, PvP experience and so on and so on.
As I explained above, the human contribution in RPGs is to simulate variables so complex that they cannot be comprehended because games are designed by humans and are quite simple compared to reality so we need to add artificial chaos and randomness to games through RNG and human input to make it seem real.
I would say that I pity you for your ignorance but in fact I pity myself for my truth. I am explaining the world to you in the vain hope of converting you because misery loves company and people who believe as I do are quite rare. I blame suicide and lack of desire to bring a child into such a depressing world. Also social disfunction.
I still dont think that you are a troll, you just dont get it. The first step in "getting it" requires you to stop arguing stuff that is not there.
The first step in "getting it" is to buy the lady a drink. Oh my bad, wrong topic.
The first step in reaching understanding is to accept that you know nothing.
You are always going to be wrong because you cannot understand the full picture.
The first step in reaching understanding is to accept that you know nothing.
You are always going to be wrong because you cannot understand the full picture.
Someone is wrong on the internet! This must be remedied immediately. Thank you for sticking it to them, bro. We need more people like you patrolling these forums
The first step in reaching understanding is to accept that you know nothing.
You are always going to be wrong because you cannot understand the full picture.
Someone is wrong on the internet! This must be remedied immediately. Thank you for sticking it to them, bro. We need more people like you patrolling these forums
Internet
forums.
You forgot to capitalize Internet and also to put a period at the end of your sentence. I hope you will do better next time.
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
RPGs are not what you think they are.
Yes they are? That's why nearly every RPG has followed that pattern of levels or skills and exp and being about character power and not player skill. Its nice that you can post a one liner without support but at least try for an example. WoW, UO, EQ, every WoW clone ever follow the pattern I described.
If you truly and really believe that, you are misguided.
If RPGs are solely based on dice-rolls, and by that i mean -SOLELY-, then i will eat a copy of Baldurs Gate, on camera, with no milk to wash it down.
Even in the most hardcore RPGs there is something like player skill, actually -especially- in the hardcore RPGs. Using the right spells, the right powers, the right positioning, is imperative to win, and yes, thats also SKILL. Even pressing the right buttons at the right time in WoW requires some degree of skill. Micromanaging your party in an encounter requires skill.
But of course you are not talking about that, because that would be silly and crazytalk.
Instead you treat one type of skill as the "proper RPG skill" and the other skill like manual aiming, dodging and clicking to shoot at the right time as "eeeeew icky FPS!!!! GTFO MY RPGS!!!" while both are actually -equal- as gameplay mechanics.
What is the difference between:
a. activating the "Kick" skill on a Rogue in WoW to interrupt spellcasting
b. using "Kick" in Dark Messiah of Might And Magic (eeeew FPS action crap) to interrupt spellcasting
There is none.
Both need to be executed at the right time to interrupt the spell, both need you to press a button.
Both need skill.
The DEFINING FEATURE of RPGs is character skill. Not the only feature. Please gain reading comprehension. In fact the original RPGs, boardgames or PnP did not have any of those features you describe. Those were added later. And the most popular RPGs focus on tab targetting.
We could easily model a system for dodging which accurately represents the player contributions you listed. Player doding in RPGs is mainly useful because AI is dumb as fuck because if AI is smart players whine about cheating. We could model dodging as a series of dice roles and directives.
If such and such monster{
callrng();
playerdodge()
if is 10th time player fight monster{
add a bonus to character to dodge in the "proper" direction;
}
}
There is a representation of "player skill". The reason we don't do that is that it is computationally efficient to relegate that role to the "organic CPUs" which participate in the game.
In fact original RPG games and even some modern mmos, hell even league of legends, have a dodge stat and a hit stat.
Player skill features were important to MMORPGs from non RPG games. Hell Final Fantasy didn't even have real time fighting and its one of the most popular RPGs ever.
Also, did you know that most games that are not pure PvP are designed to have a particular win %?
Players are happiest when the computer sets them up to win 70% of the time. That leaves just enough failure to convince them their decisions matter.
There is a reason that really long term activities in MMOs only raise stats instead of making smarter mobs. This is the same technique used in RTS games where they only give the AI more starting res instead of making them play more intelligently.
The designers of Civilization explicitly reveal this as a design decision based on player research. Making AI smarter instead of giving them higher numbers leads to violent range and cries of hax and cheatz!
I have no idea where you are getting this from, especially since you said in the same paragraph that those systems come from a time of technical limitation when we actually couldn't implement those features.
There is no way to tell if these features actually -define- RPGs, you can only argue that those features have been with RPGs for a long time, because of technical limitations, which is in essence no argument at all.
I might as well say the defining characteristic of trains is that they run on steam and electricity should GTFO my trains.
Getting back to tab-targeting, its one of the most popular MMORPG features to date, however if you look at it, it requires skill.
You have to hit tab to target the enemy, i.e. you have to have player agency to target. And, surprise, you also need player agency to target in an FPS, except you move your crosshair over the enemy instead of hitting tab. Furthermore only complete noobs tab-target in MMORPGs because it selects targets by distance and is unreliable, pros target with the mouse, manually, which is just one step away of pulling a crosshair over something.
Rogues in WoW benefit from positioning (Backstab, Sap) so do people in Quake (circlestrafe), the differences are just not there mechanically.
You are clinging to an archaic system for the sole purpose of clinging to an archaic system without even outlining any benefit.
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
RPGs are not what you think they are.
Yes they are? That's why nearly every RPG has followed that pattern of levels or skills and exp and being about character power and not player skill. Its nice that you can post a one liner without support but at least try for an example. WoW, UO, EQ, every WoW clone ever follow the pattern I described.
If you truly and really believe that, you are misguided.
If RPGs are solely based on dice-rolls, and by that i mean -SOLELY-, then i will eat a copy of Baldurs Gate, on camera, with no milk to wash it down.
Even in the most hardcore RPGs there is something like player skill, actually -especially- in the hardcore RPGs. Using the right spells, the right powers, the right positioning, is imperative to win, and yes, thats also SKILL. Even pressing the right buttons at the right time in WoW requires some degree of skill. Micromanaging your party in an encounter requires skill.
But of course you are not talking about that, because that would be silly and crazytalk.
Instead you treat one type of skill as the "proper RPG skill" and the other skill like manual aiming, dodging and clicking to shoot at the right time as "eeeeew icky FPS!!!! GTFO MY RPGS!!!" while both are actually -equal- as gameplay mechanics.
What is the difference between:
a. activating the "Kick" skill on a Rogue in WoW to interrupt spellcasting
b. using "Kick" in Dark Messiah of Might And Magic (eeeew FPS action crap) to interrupt spellcasting
There is none.
Both need to be executed at the right time to interrupt the spell, both need you to press a button.
Both need skill.
The DEFINING FEATURE of RPGs is character skill. Not the only feature. Please gain reading comprehension. In fact the original RPGs, boardgames or PnP did not have any of those features you describe. Those were added later. And the most popular RPGs focus on tab targetting.
We could easily model a system for dodging which accurately represents the player contributions you listed. Player doding in RPGs is mainly useful because AI is dumb as fuck because if AI is smart players whine about cheating. We could model dodging as a series of dice roles and directives.
If such and such monster{
callrng();
playerdodge()
if is 10th time player fight monster{
add a bonus to character to dodge in the "proper" direction;
}
}
There is a representation of "player skill". The reason we don't do that is that it is computationally efficient to relegate that role to the "organic CPUs" which participate in the game.
In fact original RPG games and even some modern mmos, hell even league of legends, have a dodge stat and a hit stat.
Player skill features were important to MMORPGs from non RPG games. Hell Final Fantasy didn't even have real time fighting and its one of the most popular RPGs ever.
Also, did you know that most games that are not pure PvP are designed to have a particular win %?
Players are happiest when the computer sets them up to win 70% of the time. That leaves just enough failure to convince them their decisions matter.
There is a reason that really long term activities in MMOs only raise stats instead of making smarter mobs. This is the same technique used in RTS games where they only give the AI more starting res instead of making them play more intelligently.
The designers of Civilization explicitly reveal this as a design decision based on player research. Making AI smarter instead of giving them higher numbers leads to violent range and cries of hax and cheatz!
I have no idea where you are getting this from, especially since you said in the same paragraph that those systems come from a time of technical limitation when we actually couldn't implement those features.
There is no way to tell if these features actually -define- RPGs, you can only argue that those features have been with RPGs for a long time, because of technical limitations, which is in essence no argument at all.
I might as well say the defining characteristic of trains is that they run on steam and electricity should GTFO my trains.
Getting back to tab-targeting, its one of the most popular MMORPG features to date, however if you look at it, it requires skill.
You have to hit tab to target the enemy, i.e. you have to have player agency to target. And, surprise, you also need player agency to target in an FPS, except you move your crosshair over the enemy instead of hitting tab. Furthermore only complete noobs tab-target in MMORPGs because it selects targets by distance and is unreliable, pros target with the mouse, manually, which is just one step away of pulling a crosshair over something.
Rogues in WoW benefit from positioning (Backstab, Sap) so do people in Quake (circlestrafe), the differences are just not there mechanically.
You are clinging to an archaic system for the sole purpose of clinging to an archaic system without even outlining any benefit.
You don't have to use RPG game mechanics. Its just that if you don't its not an RPG. Also, the fuel type is not a comparable example. Having a power source is a core feature of automo tives/biles. Fuel type is not. Having a character based skill system is a core feature of an RPG, you can have many different skill systems and progressions of character skills.
Don't bother OP. Half the guys here play RPGs instead of FPS simply because they have no twitch skills and their only sense of accomplishment can be gained by grinding a larger e-peen because they are either too rich to work, unemployed, teenagers/students or retired. They have no real love for RPGs, the grind and stat progression gives them a place to acquire self worth and if you ever dare to take that away from them they will burn you down.
You see, to them games like say Anarchy Online with its dumbfounding equipment/gear database and character customisation with excessive out of game calculations required to twink on gear is not a RPG, to them Guild Wars style 8 men, 8 skills, equal stats, build vs build, twitch vs twitch, strategy vs strategy is not a RPG, to them if you took out the levels and stat progression from games like these they're somehow FPSs, because dammiit if they have to use any amount of brainpower or twitch its not a RPG. To them Starcraft 2 is a FPS because its just skill/build vs skill/build. You can't argue against a mornic argument without using a moronic response in return, leave before your head starts to hurt.
Are you serious? You're trying to turn a debate about video games into a psychological issue.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
A lot of people use Zelda as an example of a game that doesn't have your character's power increase, but that simply isn't true. Link gets upgrades in the form of swords and heart pieces, the former making him do more damage, the latter allowing him to take more damage. At the end of the day, that's the same kind of progression we see in every other kind of RPG. There are also new abilities and tools, this is all the same.
The only prominent game I can think of that doesn't have this sort of progression is the original Mega Man series. Sure, you get new weapons, but they tend to be gimmicky and mostly just make a particular boss easier.
We like getting stronger. I don't think it's a bad thing.
A lot of people use Zelda as an example of a game that doesn't have your character's power increase, but that simply isn't true. Link gets upgrades in the form of swords and heart pieces, the former making him do more damage, the latter allowing him to take more damage. At the end of the day, that's the same kind of progression we see in every other kind of RPG. There are also new abilities and tools, this is all the same.
The only prominent game I can think of that doesn't have this sort of progression is the original Mega Man series. Sure, you get new weapons, but they tend to be gimmicky and mostly just make a particular boss easier.
We like getting stronger. I don't think it's a bad thing.
I'm glad to meet another person who understands this. So many people make arguments based on things they have no understanding of and its quite irritating.
Isn't there a better way to advance a character without just adding some arbitrary numbers? A lot of action games add new moves, or more functionality (think Zelda).
You mean like going from 3-20 hearts and having my sword do 2x or 3x damage.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
It's not rocket science. Most games use progression as a carrot on a stick. Some people are happy with MMO FPS. May they make games to cater for all of us.
Isn't there a better way to advance a character without just adding some arbitrary numbers? A lot of action games add new moves, or more functionality (think Zelda).
You mean like going from 3-20 hearts and having my sword do 2x or 3x damage.
Even LoL is based on arbitrary numbers. As is starcraft, not as much as LoL.
Don't bother OP. Half the guys here play RPGs instead of FPS simply because they have no twitch skills and their only sense of accomplishment can be gained by grinding a larger e-peen because they are either too rich to work, unemployed, teenagers/students or retired. They have no real love for RPGs, the grind and stat progression gives them a place to acquire self worth and if you ever dare to take that away from them they will burn you down.
You see, to them games like say Anarchy Online with its dumbfounding equipment/gear database and character customisation with excessive out of game calculations required to twink on gear is not a RPG, to them Guild Wars style 8 men, 8 skills, equal stats, build vs build, twitch vs twitch, strategy vs strategy is not a RPG, to them if you took out the levels and stat progression from games like these they're somehow FPSs, because dammiit if they have to use any amount of brainpower or twitch its not a RPG. To them Starcraft 2 is a FPS because its just skill/build vs skill/build. You can't argue against a mornic argument without using a moronic response in return, leave before your head starts to hurt.
Are you serious? You're trying to turn a debate about video games into a psychological issue.
No, he is just trying to push along the idea that twitch gameplay equals skill or thoughtful gameplay and that the concept of upgrading you character trough "work", specific to the mmorpg game sub-genre, is bad game design, because it is not present in other game genres as much, and that rpg == mmorpg.
In every game you play, you get MORE POWERFUL through the skills of your character, the stats of your character, the weapons and armor you use, to the way you strategize the encounter, etc...
On your large number above your target, I kinda wish devs would put in % instead of actual number, but it is still an arbitrary number you are managing. (i.e., instead of when the health is 20/200 you drink health potion, it is 10% you drink health potion.
As for character progressions, one idea is to utilize more horizontal advancement rather than vertical through skill-tree system(that is, instead of you gettin more powerful with more health through levels, you gain more skills to play with). This is represented in various forms, but the end result is the same, and from programming and design view, they ARE THE SAME.
You are still getting more powerful, and in the game server, an arbitrary number is applied to your character in some form or another, and that's just the way it is.
If you want to play a game where your stat and power is capped at beginning, and only increase functionalities (i.e. skills to use) as progression. Then in order to play advance contents, you would have to be forced to group with others to be able to beat the strong boss that is way more powerful than you... Would you like that???
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
RPGs are not what you think they are.
Yes they are? That's why nearly every RPG has followed that pattern of levels or skills and exp and being about character power and not player skill. Its nice that you can post a one liner without support but at least try for an example. WoW, UO, EQ, every WoW clone ever follow the pattern I described.
If you truly and really believe that, you are misguided.
If RPGs are solely based on dice-rolls, and by that i mean -SOLELY-, then i will eat a copy of Baldurs Gate, on camera, with no milk to wash it down.
Even in the most hardcore RPGs there is something like player skill, actually -especially- in the hardcore RPGs. Using the right spells, the right powers, the right positioning, is imperative to win, and yes, thats also SKILL. Even pressing the right buttons at the right time in WoW requires some degree of skill. Micromanaging your party in an encounter requires skill.
But of course you are not talking about that, because that would be silly and crazytalk.
Instead you treat one type of skill as the "proper RPG skill" and the other skill like manual aiming, dodging and clicking to shoot at the right time as "eeeeew icky FPS!!!! GTFO MY RPGS!!!" while both are actually -equal- as gameplay mechanics.
What is the difference between:
a. activating the "Kick" skill on a Rogue in WoW to interrupt spellcasting
b. using "Kick" in Dark Messiah of Might And Magic (eeeew FPS action crap) to interrupt spellcasting
There is none.
Both need to be executed at the right time to interrupt the spell, both need you to press a button.
Both need skill.
The DEFINING FEATURE of RPGs is character skill. Not the only feature. Please gain reading comprehension. In fact the original RPGs, boardgames or PnP did not have any of those features you describe. Those were added later. And the most popular RPGs focus on tab targetting.
We could easily model a system for dodging which accurately represents the player contributions you listed. Player doding in RPGs is mainly useful because AI is dumb as fuck because if AI is smart players whine about cheating. We could model dodging as a series of dice roles and directives.
If such and such monster{
callrng();
playerdodge()
if is 10th time player fight monster{
add a bonus to character to dodge in the "proper" direction;
}
}
There is a representation of "player skill". The reason we don't do that is that it is computationally efficient to relegate that role to the "organic CPUs" which participate in the game.
In fact original RPG games and even some modern mmos, hell even league of legends, have a dodge stat and a hit stat.
Player skill features were important to MMORPGs from non RPG games. Hell Final Fantasy didn't even have real time fighting and its one of the most popular RPGs ever.
Also, did you know that most games that are not pure PvP are designed to have a particular win %?
Players are happiest when the computer sets them up to win 70% of the time. That leaves just enough failure to convince them their decisions matter.
There is a reason that really long term activities in MMOs only raise stats instead of making smarter mobs. This is the same technique used in RTS games where they only give the AI more starting res instead of making them play more intelligently.
The designers of Civilization explicitly reveal this as a design decision based on player research. Making AI smarter instead of giving them higher numbers leads to violent range and cries of hax and cheatz!
I have no idea where you are getting this from, especially since you said in the same paragraph that those systems come from a time of technical limitation when we actually couldn't implement those features.
There is no way to tell if these features actually -define- RPGs, you can only argue that those features have been with RPGs for a long time, because of technical limitations, which is in essence no argument at all.
I might as well say the defining characteristic of trains is that they run on steam and electricity should GTFO my trains.
Getting back to tab-targeting, its one of the most popular MMORPG features to date, however if you look at it, it requires skill.
You have to hit tab to target the enemy, i.e. you have to have player agency to target. And, surprise, you also need player agency to target in an FPS, except you move your crosshair over the enemy instead of hitting tab. Furthermore only complete noobs tab-target in MMORPGs because it selects targets by distance and is unreliable, pros target with the mouse, manually, which is just one step away of pulling a crosshair over something.
Rogues in WoW benefit from positioning (Backstab, Sap) so do people in Quake (circlestrafe), the differences are just not there mechanically.
You are clinging to an archaic system for the sole purpose of clinging to an archaic system without even outlining any benefit.
You don't have to use RPG game mechanics. Its just that if you don't its not an RPG. Also, the fuel type is not a comparable example. Having a power source is a core feature of automo tives/biles. Fuel type is not. Having a character based skill system is a core feature of an RPG, you can have many different skill systems and progressions of character skills.
A lot of people use Zelda as an example of a game that doesn't have your character's power increase, but that simply isn't true. Link gets upgrades in the form of swords and heart pieces, the former making him do more damage, the latter allowing him to take more damage. At the end of the day, that's the same kind of progression we see in every other kind of RPG. There are also new abilities and tools, this is all the same.
The only prominent game I can think of that doesn't have this sort of progression is the original Mega Man series. Sure, you get new weapons, but they tend to be gimmicky and mostly just make a particular boss easier.
We like getting stronger. I don't think it's a bad thing.
I'm glad to meet another person who understands this. So many people make arguments based on things they have no understanding of and its quite irritating.
Aye, you being prime example of such a person, in fact, you are making arguments based on things that arent even there in order to get some point across which also isnt in question either, it's even more irritating.
I've never claimed RPG's should get rid of the usually used system of becoming more powerful by gaining levels, or making the games FPS/twitch based, while you keep bringing it up and arguing against while it has nothing to do with my posts at all, how irritating is that?
I've never claimed RPG's should get rid of the usually used system of becoming more powerful by gaining levels, or making the games FPS/twitch based, while you keep bringing it up and arguing against while it has nothing to do with my posts at all, how irritating is that?
You didn't but the OP did, and you said you completely agreed with him. If this isn't the case, then the error made was yours, not anyone else's.
I've never claimed RPG's should get rid of the usually used system of becoming more powerful by gaining levels, or making the games FPS/twitch based, while you keep bringing it up and arguing against while it has nothing to do with my posts at all, how irritating is that?
You didn't but the OP did, and you said you completely agreed with him. If this isn't the case, then the error made was yours, not anyone else's.
I think I explained what I was on about, if a person reads only one or two words of a reply he shouldnt answer then because he basically has no clue what someone is saying. Selective reading and comprehension and all that, leads to pointless arguments.
I've never claimed RPG's should get rid of the usually used system of becoming more powerful by gaining levels, or making the games FPS/twitch based, while you keep bringing it up and arguing against while it has nothing to do with my posts at all, how irritating is that?
You didn't but the OP did, and you said you completely agreed with him. If this isn't the case, then the error made was yours, not anyone else's.
That was not my intended claim. Perhaps I came off as too strong. I understand That numbers go up, and they've always been a factor, but I think it is ridiculous when it is the ONLY factor. And is simply used as an artificial gate. There is no need to have 100 levels when the same thing can be done in 40.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift Willing to try anything new
I've never claimed RPG's should get rid of the usually used system of becoming more powerful by gaining levels, or making the games FPS/twitch based, while you keep bringing it up and arguing against while it has nothing to do with my posts at all, how irritating is that?
You didn't but the OP did, and you said you completely agreed with him. If this isn't the case, then the error made was yours, not anyone else's.
That was not my intended claim. Perhaps I came off as too strong. I understand That numbers go up, and they've always been a factor, but I think it is ridiculous when it is the ONLY factor. And is simply used as an artificial gate. There is no need to have 100 levels when the same thing can be done in 40.
Or have 100 levels, just get rid of the insanely steep power gain through every level, you get new abilities and talents, you dont need to get a bag full of stats on top of that, sure fine give stats, just not so damn much, it restricts the gameplay on so many levels having all the content + PvP based on "you have to be exactly lvl5-6 to do this/to fight this person, if you are under that you have no chance, if you are above that there's no point, no xp, no useful rewards" <- that's a bad and too restrictive system, very much a "handholding" type of mechanic to keep you on the rails while breaking world PvP in mmorpgs.
I love leveling in my (mmo)RPG's, I just dont like how it affects everything around me, for having so ridicilously big numbers involved in it when they could be significantly smaller, or just ability and talent gains would work perfectly well for me too.
I've never claimed RPG's should get rid of the usually used system of becoming more powerful by gaining levels, or making the games FPS/twitch based, while you keep bringing it up and arguing against while it has nothing to do with my posts at all, how irritating is that?
You didn't but the OP did, and you said you completely agreed with him. If this isn't the case, then the error made was yours, not anyone else's.
That was not my intended claim. Perhaps I came off as too strong. I understand That numbers go up, and they've always been a factor, but I think it is ridiculous when it is the ONLY factor. And is simply used as an artificial gate. There is no need to have 100 levels when the same thing can be done in 40.
Or have 100 levels, just get rid of the insanely steep power gain through every level, you get new abilities and talents, you dont need to get a bag full of stats on top of that, sure fine give stats, just not so damn much, it restricts the gameplay on so many levels having all the content + PvP based on "you have to be exactly lvl5-6 to do this/to fight this person, if you are under that you have no chance, if you are above that there's no point, no xp, no useful rewards" <- that's a bad and too restrictive system, very much a "handholding" type of mechanic to keep you on the rails while breaking world PvP in mmorpgs.
I love leveling in my (mmo)RPG's, I just dont like how it affects everything around me, for having so ridicilously big numbers involved in it when they could be significantly smaller, or just ability and talent gains would work perfectly well for me too.
New abilities and talents would have an identical result.
I've never claimed RPG's should get rid of the usually used system of becoming more powerful by gaining levels, or making the games FPS/twitch based, while you keep bringing it up and arguing against while it has nothing to do with my posts at all, how irritating is that?
You didn't but the OP did, and you said you completely agreed with him. If this isn't the case, then the error made was yours, not anyone else's.
That was not my intended claim. Perhaps I came off as too strong. I understand That numbers go up, and they've always been a factor, but I think it is ridiculous when it is the ONLY factor. And is simply used as an artificial gate. There is no need to have 100 levels when the same thing can be done in 40.
Or have 100 levels, just get rid of the insanely steep power gain through every level, you get new abilities and talents, you dont need to get a bag full of stats on top of that, sure fine give stats, just not so damn much, it restricts the gameplay on so many levels having all the content + PvP based on "you have to be exactly lvl5-6 to do this/to fight this person, if you are under that you have no chance, if you are above that there's no point, no xp, no useful rewards" <- that's a bad and too restrictive system, very much a "handholding" type of mechanic to keep you on the rails while breaking world PvP in mmorpgs.
I love leveling in my (mmo)RPG's, I just dont like how it affects everything around me, for having so ridicilously big numbers involved in it when they could be significantly smaller, or just ability and talent gains would work perfectly well for me too.
You need to balance the flat lvl curve with something, and thats whats happening right now, the old system of doing 9999+ dmg is being phased out and in come systems where you will need to play smart instead of relying on your bigass numbers.
Bigass numbers work in SP games well, because nobody is interfering/watching you play. So if you invest 300 hours into FF10 and can essentially oneshot the endboss, nobody cares, because the game is not competitive (neither pve competitive nor pvp competitive).
In an MMO if someone figures out how to one-shot Deathwing in WoW, everyone will be up in arms and the game will be called "broken".
This is less about mechanics and more about psychology and social group-dynamics.
Comments
I have not read the whole thread, but guild wars progression is fairly unique. You hit the max level extremely fast, but you are still able to learn new skills just be doing quests, missions, and defeating bosses. These skills are not necessarily better, but they might fit your playstyle more or fit more appropriate for certain situations.
The DEFINING FEATURE of RPGs is character skill. Not the only feature. Please gain reading comprehension. In fact the original RPGs, boardgames or PnP did not have any of those features you describe. Those were added later. And the most popular RPGs focus on tab targetting.
We could easily model a system for dodging which accurately represents the player contributions you listed. Player doding in RPGs is mainly useful because AI is dumb as fuck because if AI is smart players whine about cheating. We could model dodging as a series of dice roles and directives.
If such and such monster{
callrng();
playerdodge()
if is 10th time player fight monster{
add a bonus to character to dodge in the "proper" direction;
}
}
There is a representation of "player skill". The reason we don't do that is that it is computationally efficient to relegate that role to the "organic CPUs" which participate in the game.
In fact original RPG games and even some modern mmos, hell even league of legends, have a dodge stat and a hit stat.
Player skill features were important to MMORPGs from non RPG games. Hell Final Fantasy didn't even have real time fighting and its one of the most popular RPGs ever.
Also, did you know that most games that are not pure PvP are designed to have a particular win %?
Players are happiest when the computer sets them up to win 70% of the time. That leaves just enough failure to convince them their decisions matter.
There is a reason that really long term activities in MMOs only raise stats instead of making smarter mobs. This is the same technique used in RTS games where they only give the AI more starting res instead of making them play more intelligently.
The designers of Civilization explicitly reveal this as a design decision based on player research. Making AI smarter instead of giving them higher numbers leads to violent range and cries of hax and cheatz!
I still dont think that you are a troll, you just dont get it. The first step in "getting it" requires you to stop arguing stuff that is not there.
The first step in "getting it" is to buy the lady a drink. Oh my bad, wrong topic.
The first step in reaching understanding is to accept that you know nothing.
You are always going to be wrong because you cannot understand the full picture.
Someone is wrong on the internet! This must be remedied immediately. Thank you for sticking it to them, bro. We need more people like you patrolling these forums
Internet
forums.
You forgot to capitalize Internet and also to put a period at the end of your sentence. I hope you will do better next time.
I have no idea where you are getting this from, especially since you said in the same paragraph that those systems come from a time of technical limitation when we actually couldn't implement those features.
There is no way to tell if these features actually -define- RPGs, you can only argue that those features have been with RPGs for a long time, because of technical limitations, which is in essence no argument at all.
I might as well say the defining characteristic of trains is that they run on steam and electricity should GTFO my trains.
Getting back to tab-targeting, its one of the most popular MMORPG features to date, however if you look at it, it requires skill.
You have to hit tab to target the enemy, i.e. you have to have player agency to target. And, surprise, you also need player agency to target in an FPS, except you move your crosshair over the enemy instead of hitting tab. Furthermore only complete noobs tab-target in MMORPGs because it selects targets by distance and is unreliable, pros target with the mouse, manually, which is just one step away of pulling a crosshair over something.
Rogues in WoW benefit from positioning (Backstab, Sap) so do people in Quake (circlestrafe), the differences are just not there mechanically.
You are clinging to an archaic system for the sole purpose of clinging to an archaic system without even outlining any benefit.
You don't have to use RPG game mechanics. Its just that if you don't its not an RPG. Also, the fuel type is not a comparable example. Having a power source is a core feature of automo tives/biles. Fuel type is not. Having a character based skill system is a core feature of an RPG, you can have many different skill systems and progressions of character skills.
Are you serious? You're trying to turn a debate about video games into a psychological issue.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
A lot of people use Zelda as an example of a game that doesn't have your character's power increase, but that simply isn't true. Link gets upgrades in the form of swords and heart pieces, the former making him do more damage, the latter allowing him to take more damage. At the end of the day, that's the same kind of progression we see in every other kind of RPG. There are also new abilities and tools, this is all the same.
The only prominent game I can think of that doesn't have this sort of progression is the original Mega Man series. Sure, you get new weapons, but they tend to be gimmicky and mostly just make a particular boss easier.
We like getting stronger. I don't think it's a bad thing.
I'm glad to meet another person who understands this. So many people make arguments based on things they have no understanding of and its quite irritating.
You mean like going from 3-20 hearts and having my sword do 2x or 3x damage.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
It's not rocket science. Most games use progression as a carrot on a stick. Some people are happy with MMO FPS. May they make games to cater for all of us.
Even LoL is based on arbitrary numbers. As is starcraft, not as much as LoL.
No, he is just trying to push along the idea that twitch gameplay equals skill or thoughtful gameplay and that the concept of upgrading you character trough "work", specific to the mmorpg game sub-genre, is bad game design, because it is not present in other game genres as much, and that rpg == mmorpg.
A more simple and obvious version of Axe
Flame on!
It's NOT a problem.
In every game you play, you get MORE POWERFUL through the skills of your character, the stats of your character, the weapons and armor you use, to the way you strategize the encounter, etc...
On your large number above your target, I kinda wish devs would put in % instead of actual number, but it is still an arbitrary number you are managing. (i.e., instead of when the health is 20/200 you drink health potion, it is 10% you drink health potion.
As for character progressions, one idea is to utilize more horizontal advancement rather than vertical through skill-tree system(that is, instead of you gettin more powerful with more health through levels, you gain more skills to play with). This is represented in various forms, but the end result is the same, and from programming and design view, they ARE THE SAME.
You are still getting more powerful, and in the game server, an arbitrary number is applied to your character in some form or another, and that's just the way it is.
If you want to play a game where your stat and power is capped at beginning, and only increase functionalities (i.e. skills to use) as progression. Then in order to play advance contents, you would have to be forced to group with others to be able to beat the strong boss that is way more powerful than you... Would you like that???
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
There is no such thing.
Aye, you being prime example of such a person, in fact, you are making arguments based on things that arent even there in order to get some point across which also isnt in question either, it's even more irritating.
I've never claimed RPG's should get rid of the usually used system of becoming more powerful by gaining levels, or making the games FPS/twitch based, while you keep bringing it up and arguing against while it has nothing to do with my posts at all, how irritating is that?
You didn't but the OP did, and you said you completely agreed with him. If this isn't the case, then the error made was yours, not anyone else's.
I think I explained what I was on about, if a person reads only one or two words of a reply he shouldnt answer then because he basically has no clue what someone is saying. Selective reading and comprehension and all that, leads to pointless arguments.
That was not my intended claim. Perhaps I came off as too strong. I understand That numbers go up, and they've always been a factor, but I think it is ridiculous when it is the ONLY factor. And is simply used as an artificial gate. There is no need to have 100 levels when the same thing can be done in 40.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift
Willing to try anything new
Or have 100 levels, just get rid of the insanely steep power gain through every level, you get new abilities and talents, you dont need to get a bag full of stats on top of that, sure fine give stats, just not so damn much, it restricts the gameplay on so many levels having all the content + PvP based on "you have to be exactly lvl5-6 to do this/to fight this person, if you are under that you have no chance, if you are above that there's no point, no xp, no useful rewards" <- that's a bad and too restrictive system, very much a "handholding" type of mechanic to keep you on the rails while breaking world PvP in mmorpgs.
I love leveling in my (mmo)RPG's, I just dont like how it affects everything around me, for having so ridicilously big numbers involved in it when they could be significantly smaller, or just ability and talent gains would work perfectly well for me too.
New abilities and talents would have an identical result.
Let me ask you this... Do you want to be a ninja wizard?
Cause if you do, one does not simply become a ninja wizard by logging in.
You need to balance the flat lvl curve with something, and thats whats happening right now, the old system of doing 9999+ dmg is being phased out and in come systems where you will need to play smart instead of relying on your bigass numbers.
Bigass numbers work in SP games well, because nobody is interfering/watching you play. So if you invest 300 hours into FF10 and can essentially oneshot the endboss, nobody cares, because the game is not competitive (neither pve competitive nor pvp competitive).
In an MMO if someone figures out how to one-shot Deathwing in WoW, everyone will be up in arms and the game will be called "broken".
This is less about mechanics and more about psychology and social group-dynamics.