Because if your character was static throughout the game or even got weaker during the game, you would feel like your time is being wasted. An MMO should have the goal to retain a subscriber for as long as possible, so the player should feel like they are accomplishing something - not only in the story and the world, but also with their character.
I flipped tables when, playing Oblivion, I came across a bandit (normally enemies that wore hide armour) that was decked out in full glass, the most expensive light armour available, and tried to make me pay a fare of 5 gold. In Oblivion, you either stayed the same or got weaker as the game went on as enemies either got better equipment or got their health bloated, which makes no sense.
If my character was previously challenged by a goblin village during my first steps into a game, but later went on to become the hero of the world through an amazing amount of time and effort, I should be able to completely obliterate goblins when I return. They shouldn't 'scale to my level' or receive 10000 more health to provide a 'challenge' for me. Did pen and paper RPGs make you static or weaker as you progressed? How about some of the actual good cRPGs (PS:T, Bloodlines)?
Should basic rats in the newbie area suddenly become giant sacks of health with diamond-tipped fangs and poison saliva if your Swordsmanship skill increases to 50? When you get that Breastplate of Armchair Game Development +5 (chance to post a devcorner thread that makes no sense when hit), should all the monsters in the game hit you as if you were wearing Minor Rags of Sandbox Threads -1 (chance to post a sandbox thread on this site when hit)?
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
Because if your character was static throughout the game or even got weaker during the game, you would feel like your time is being wasted. An MMO should have the goal to retain a subscriber for as long as possible, so the player should feel like they are accomplishing something - not only in the story and the world, but also with their character.
You can have perfectly good leveling system without the need to gain 100k hitpoints, in fact you dont need a single hitpoint during the leveling, just abilities and talents etc, then your character improves all the time so you get the feeling of improving and expanding on your char but you dont get retartedly powerful demigod, who can fart earlier areas to oblivion and who still cant even touch some higher end areas because the number next to the name does not allow it. Very limiting system that causes huge imbalances in world PvP and creates impenetrable artificial barriers everywhere you look untill you hit max level.
I think the old system is fine, in sense that I play games that use it and enjoy my self doing so, it's just that I'd enjoy a lot more system that is a bit more open and does not define characters entirely based on A.) The little number next to their names or B.) Their gear level if they are on max level. Both of those should affect the character, but not define the character.
Now I'm gonna rant here for a little so you can just ignore me if you want.
First off i do agree that progression is important, and the lv up system that has been a defining method of progress since the start of modern games, and it works quite well... that said at a certain point it just seems silly. Take, for instance, a lv 3 goblin, now if your character is lv 1 it might seem a bit of a challenge to kill, now with that over with 20 lvs latter your fight a huge lv 20 dragon boss, and this guy is a hell of a b*tch to kill. you have been at it for 30 min and you finally fell the beast, then another one pops up and a lv 60 goblin walks up and one hits it... da fuq. a goblin could kill that beast in an instant after all that time you spent facing off against it... oh wait there is more remember that lv 3 goblin, well he comes up a smashes you in the skull with his spiked club, oh wait pft who cares that attack that used to take half your health doesn't do crap to you now... a now, once again a da fuq moment. there is no way in hell that getting smashed in the skull with a spiked club would do nothing to you, and there is no way in hell that a crappy goblin would be able to take down a dragon in a single blow.
At such poin the flaws of lving become painfully obvious, and yet as mmos, neigh, nearly all games today are nearly completely bound to this system. however to change such a system one would have to drastically change the core mechanics of the said game. And even if you try to break away from such a system you are still bound to the need of progression. oh and by the way a tip of my hat to Nexon for at the vary least trying to do it with such games as mabinogi, dragon's nest, and vindictus. that said no one has ever been able to truly succeed at it. and i give a big ol wag of my finger to all the WoW clones out there who don't even bother trying.
Now i know that games, and in particular mmos, have large developing times that goes into, and that sometimes one simply cannot afford to take such risks. However as technology advanced faster and faster one starts to expect more and more from their games. And i understand that sometimes it is better to just continue doing what you are doing, but at some point someone is going to have to take a leap of faith less the world be doomed to continually repeat the same mistakes over and over again till the end of time.
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
You can have perfectly good leveling system without the need to gain 100k hitpoints, in fact you dont need a single hitpoint during the leveling, just abilities and talents etc, then your character improves all the time so you get the feeling of improving and expanding on your char but you dont get retartedly powerful demigod, who can fart earlier areas to oblivion and who still cant even touch some higher end areas because the number next to the name does not allow it. Very limiting system that causes huge imbalances in world PvP and creates impenetrable artificial barriers everywhere you look untill you hit max level.
I think the old system is fine, in sense that I play games that use it and enjoy my self doing so, it's just that I'd enjoy a lot more system that is a bit more open and does not define characters entirely based on A.) The little number next to their names or B.) Their gear level if they are on max level. Both of those should affect the character, but not define the character.
It doesn't matter what progresses - HP, levels, skills, items, whatever. There still needs to be progression in order for it to not be bad. I didn't say levels entirely - did you check the bottom paragraph of my post?
Because Luke Skywalker can't even think about beating the final boss Darth Vader until he levels up on training droids, recieves experience points from Yoda, defeats the dungeon boss Rancor, gets a Medallion with +stats from the Rebellion, and does a darth vadar easy mode in Cloud City. THEN he will be ready for Death Star HardMode with the Emperor Bonus Boss.
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
Seriously, why is this such a staple in MMOs and RPGs in general.
Every RPG these days gives me +5 stat points every time I level or get a new item. But... why?
The only thing I can think of is to provide an artificial gate so I don't go on to more powerful content. But what this does is overpower me for content that I've already completed making it absolutely trivial to go back and participate in it again, unless I reroll.
Now a lot of games have mentoring systems that bring a higher player down or a lower player up or whatever so that the content means something again.... but then begs the question, why did I even have to become more powerful to begin with?
So obviously, the only real reason you get +stat things as we advance is to give a false sense of accomplishment by seeing larger numbers above my target.
Isn't there a better way to advance a character without just adding some arbitrary numbers? A lot of action games add new moves, or more functionality (think Zelda).
All the while this advances the way the game is played, by allowing the devs to create new and different puzzles and boss encounters. Right now, MMOs for the most part just advance the story and the mobs get to do more damage and take more damage. It's virtually the same as all the levels before it.
This is a problem that needs addressing.
It's not a problem that needs addressing. What you want is a different genre. Action/Adventure, Adventure, or Action with RPG elements.
Devil May Cry is an action game.
Devil May Cry 3 is an action game with RPG elements (most action games these days like to incorporate some type of item, or player leveling).
Adventure games are similar to RPG's, but are RPG-lite. There are watered down versions of a full RPG (this should not be equated with "worse").
Zelda is an adventure game.
Skyrim is an RPG.
Some people like RPG's, but they don't really want all the fiddly stats and such.
Action/Adventure is Diablo 2. It's a hack'nslash action type gameplay with a gameworld with lore and a few RPG elements, but it doesn't fully fall on either side.
Progression is not only a defining characteristic of an RPG, paper or digital, it's also a defining characteristic of human nature.
Just consider the difference between the attitude of 2 people; one who wakes up every day with the idea that they'll be more productive/wise/intelligent/knowlegable/prosperous, and another who knows that it's all downhill for the rest of their lives, or even just the same.
And as far as gaming mechanics go, you're limited in what enemies you can introduce to a character that challenges competence. How can you make a lowly goblin a challenge, but then have the character go off and fight a dragon?
Finally, without progression, you have a game which is like a first person shooter, except vastly inferior.
I agree.
OP, I think you're in the wrong genre.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
The focus of any RPG is to play a role in that world.
But to answer your question about why you have to become more powerful... You dont have to. You can decide to after you get your butt smeared by that pig outside of town because you attacked it thinking it was going to be an easy meal.
Action/Adventure is Diablo 2. It's a hack'nslash action type gameplay with a gameworld with lore and a few RPG elements, but it doesn't fully fall on either side.
Ironically, the skill trees in d2, with all the possibilities are something which very few mmo games have managed to outdo.
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
RPGs are not what you think they are.
Yes they are? That's why nearly every RPG has followed that pattern of levels or skills and exp and being about character power and not player skill. Its nice that you can post a one liner without support but at least try for an example. WoW, UO, EQ, every WoW clone ever follow the pattern I described.
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
You are seriously missing the point now because for some odd reason you are mad as hell atm.
I'm not asking to change the gameplay like you seem to imply, just to have a leveling system where the gained power is not so ridicilous compared between a handful of levels. I dont really understand how your ranting about RPG's being about the character or even mentioning FPS or twitch based games has anything at all to do with that.
I know a couple of people mentioned that I am in the wrong genre of wanting this problem addressed, and I disagree completely. RPGs have had me from the beginning. I'm still playing final fantasy games after years, most recently I'm going back through XIII, and one thing that I notice right away is as I'm leveling, more and more gameplay options are openning up. I have yet to go through a long series of battles in which I perform the same actions over and over. Everything opens up a new strategy.
This is how I feel character progression should be. My character becoming more powerful in his toolset, not just the raw numbers. Bigger numbers mean nothing at all if there is no added challenge.
The issue with out leveling content is more of a sidebar, but the principle is the same as you level up in most MMOs. Just keep doing what you were doing before. Nothing gets harder or more intricate, and the only sense of progression you have is just bigger numbers, and that is just bull****.
Raid progression is done pretty well in some games. Boss mechanics get harder, but gear checks still exist (to force a grind and artificial gate, ugh).
I think GW2 and TSW are on the right track, TERA maybe as well. But I still think that stat leveling divides the communities too much.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift Willing to try anything new
I played pen and paper RPG for ten years before finding MMOs. And in those pen and paper games you didnt gain anything then skills. You could play for years with one character, and you still had maybe 13 HP.
It didnt matter if you were the best swordfighter in the world, one smack to your chatacters head would kiil it.
The "quests" or adventures was what mattered, not soke number.
It was not untill WoW that i saw levels for the first time, wondering what the hell it was!
Levels, or skill levels, have existed for like 20 years or more.
Levels started with PNP... DnD dates back to 1974. So at least 38 years. And a hell of a lot of PnP had HP or other increases with skill increases when leveling (although certainly not all).
On original topic, getiing rid of this level progress (in any of its forms) is a tough sell to RPG'ers as it is inherit in the genere, and as stated several times in this thread is a phychological reward for playing. Could it be flattened and not nearly as dramatic from doing say 5 dmg at lvl 1 to 25k damage at cap? In my opinion, that would be a welcome change. Flattening for a thempark could make all content a bit more accessible, whether you are too low or high a level for content, and for both themeparks and sandboxes would make PvP less about lvl/gear than skill/tactical advantage.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
I just stumbled into this thread and this is the first thing I see...
Dude... Chill....
----
On Topic:
For a RPG to feel fulfilling (in My Personal opinion and experience) there need to be some kind of progression.
Now when I RP in PnP RPGs we usually don't play Dungeons and Dragons or any other game with a leveling system but rather what would be consider "skill based" - just you don't earn skill points very often. Instead we focus on Story and Character Development in the form of personal growth and fulfilling ambitions. That is, of course, all well and good ina PnP RPG, the roleplaying takes a different form than it (usually) does online; and though the character development approach would work for actual Roleplayers (the ones that play RPGs for roleplay and story rather than stats and purple pixels) I doubt it'd work in (for example) an MMO simply because most MMO players (imo) aren't like that and most don't create their own stories. Perhaps mainly since no MMO really cater to Storytellers.
I guess, as well, that in PnP RPGs the storyteller can easily describe an enviorment or an artifact of doom and simply 'invent it' , but in MMOs we're "stuck" with what we have.
Thus, some sort of character progression is needed as we cannot develop our character through story or emotional growth (or in some cases simply don't want to) to prevent the game and characters from growing static.
And here's where levels, skills etc. comes in. These are not the culprit though imo. The real antagonist is the almighty "endgame" as perceived by the general MMO populace today.
I never played UO much but I did play a lot of SWG pre-cu (and no, I'm not one of "those" veterans) and I think similar systems are the key.
For example, make a skill based system, let the skills be fairly hard to master and give the ability to learn skills that include other stuff than combat abilities (building houses etc.). Make sure the most awesome items (when it comes to crafting) in the game also require different mats and skill and limit the amount of skills you can learn, thus forcing people to come together.
Now, that takes (somewhat) care of the crafting bit and the questions of "what should I do when I don't bash heads", but what about combat?
Let's face it, today combat is essential. However, why does it have to be so "over the top"?
In reality, if someone stands naked before you , it matters little if you stab them with a longsword or a dagger. It hurts, and without medical attention they die. Sure, the sword has thepotential of doing more damage if used right, but in the end it matters little. The techniques differ, however, if you are to fight properly with them and they each have scenarios where the other is more useful (mace vs. sword for example).
So why not build on that instead? Give character new moves, make swords etc. do a baseline amount of damage though with different kinds of damage (blunt, slashing etc.). Make armors reflect it.
Personally, and yes - it is subjective, I don't need more in the way of combat. All wars in our world has been fought by sword and shield, not magic. Would a MMO with combat in similar fashion be so bad?
Though, of course, no major gaming studio would produce this and the above are ramblings that probably don't even make sense since I wrote them this late. Sorry 'bout the wall of text. I didn't think I'd actually write that much.
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
You are seriously missing the point now because for some odd reason you are mad as hell atm.
I'm not asking to change the gameplay like you seem to imply, just to have a leveling system where the gained power is not so ridicilous compared between a handful of levels. I dont really understand how your ranting about RPG's being about the character or even mentioning FPS or twitch based games has anything at all to do with that.
I am not angry. Maybe mildly annoyed.
If that is what you meant you should have said so. You said and this is a direct quote, advancement based on your pool of abilities. And that leads to flavor of the month.
You also made comments about a "good" player and a "bad" player which is where twitch comes in. RPGs are inherently based on CHARACTER SKILLS and not PLAYER SKILLS. Thus a "good" player is one with a character with high level skills. Did you mean a player who makes smart decisions? Because that is all about either mathcrafting or twitch. So which one did you mean by "good"? A min maxer who deals with picking the ideal spec and skill set, or someone with twitch?
Do you just want a low capped level system ala guildwars? Because that means that advancement is based on flavor of the month skill picks, just like guild wars is. Certain skills are almost always better with the occassional FOTM when someone does some mathcrafting on a new skill.
You have failed to list a method which is less arbitrary than levels or skill levels or min maxing skill selection which is not twitch. So that is why I assume you refer to twitch.
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
You are seriously missing the point now because for some odd reason you are mad as hell atm.
I'm not asking to change the gameplay like you seem to imply, just to have a leveling system where the gained power is not so ridicilous compared between a handful of levels. I dont really understand how your ranting about RPG's being about the character or even mentioning FPS or twitch based games has anything at all to do with that.
I am not angry. Maybe mildly annoyed.
If that is what you meant you should have said so. You said and this is a direct quote, advancement based on your pool of abilities. And that leads to flavor of the month.
You also made comments about a "good" player and a "bad" player which is where twitch comes in. RPGs are inherently based on CHARACTER SKILLS and not PLAYER SKILLS. Thus a "good" player is one with a character with high level skills. Did you mean a player who makes smart decisions? Because that is all about either mathcrafting or twitch. So which one did you mean by "good"? A min maxer who deals with picking the ideal spec and skill set, or someone with twitch?
Do you just want a low capped level system ala guildwars? Because that means that advancement is based on flavor of the month skill picks, just like guild wars is. Certain skills are almost always better with the occassional FOTM when someone does some mathcrafting on a new skill.
You have failed to list a method which is less arbitrary than levels or skill levels or min maxing skill selection which is not twitch. So that is why I assume you refer to twitch.
Seriously, I dont know how you read what I write since you keep going in strange directions with your replies that has nothing to do with what I've been saying. I'll try once more, and please leave the FPS and/or twitch aspect out of this completely now, nothing that I say has anything to do with FPS or twitch gameplay, or class balance or any of that, only about the way of leveling (what the topic is about and what I've been trying to discuss).
So, we level in a standard themepark mmorpg. We gain not only abilities and talent points but also a ton of stats, along with new gear with a ton + truckload and a few cargoholds worth of stats. That means, while lvl10 player has 1000 hitpoints and does 100 dps, lvl20 player has 2000 hitpoints and does 200 dps along with having better talents and more abilities. When these two characters meet in the battlefield, it is pre-determined that lvl20 player wins no matter what.
Is it a good system when it is decided before the battle takes place who wins it? What I'm saying is, introduce a system where everyone still gets levels because leveling is essential in RPG's, but instead 1000hp and 100dps VS. 2000hp and 200dps + more abilities and talents, give a system where it's more like 1000hp and 100dps VS. 1100hp and 110 dps PLUS the extra abilities and talents. AT LEAST the lvl10 player now would have a chance to defend himself against that higher level players, while in the current system he does not have any chance at all.
Also this would not make the "outleveled" areas complete waste of space for higher level players when there would still be some challenge, some gear perhaps to obtain and so on. Now there's no point in going back other than killing people in PvP that can do nothing else but die because the outcome of the fight is PRE-DETERMINED before the fight even starts.
I'll quote my self from the previous post to summarize: "I'm not asking to change the gameplay like you seem to imply, just to have a leveling system where the gained power is not so ridicilous compared between a handful of levels." Now please do not bring any FPS or twitch aspect into this, I dont want to turn any RPG into some other type of game, just smoothen the ridicilously enormous level differences to smaller ones, NOT ONLY to give some point in players of different levels fighting eachothers instead of the current cat and mouse game, but also to make previously visited areas usable for players. TOR is a good example of one of the new mmorpgs where there is absolutely no point in going back to previous planets because the power curve of your char through leveling and gear is way too steep.
I have to get back to this also, you said this: "You also made comments about a "good" player and a "bad" player which is where twitch comes in. RPGs are inherently based on CHARACTER SKILLS and not PLAYER SKILLS." <- That is just wrong, make 2 EXACTLY similar characters with class gear everything exactly the same, and duel. The player who is better at the game will win every time. Bad players are clickers, they loose with equal gear on against non-clickers every time, it's player skills, not character skills. You can be a worse or better player on SO MANY levels in any RPG, through your knowledge of classes, better reflexes, PvP experience and so on and so on.
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
RPGs are not what you think they are.
Yes they are? That's why nearly every RPG has followed that pattern of levels or skills and exp and being about character power and not player skill. Its nice that you can post a one liner without support but at least try for an example. WoW, UO, EQ, every WoW clone ever follow the pattern I described.
If you truly and really believe that, you are misguided.
If RPGs are solely based on dice-rolls, and by that i mean -SOLELY-, then i will eat a copy of Baldurs Gate, on camera, with no milk to wash it down.
Even in the most hardcore RPGs there is something like player skill, actually -especially- in the hardcore RPGs. Using the right spells, the right powers, the right positioning, is imperative to win, and yes, thats also SKILL. Even pressing the right buttons at the right time in WoW requires some degree of skill. Micromanaging your party in an encounter requires skill.
But of course you are not talking about that, because that would be silly and crazytalk.
Instead you treat one type of skill as the "proper RPG skill" and the other skill like manual aiming, dodging and clicking to shoot at the right time as "eeeeew icky FPS!!!! GTFO MY RPGS!!!" while both are actually -equal- as gameplay mechanics.
What is the difference between:
a. activating the "Kick" skill on a Rogue in WoW to interrupt spellcasting
b. using "Kick" in Dark Messiah of Might And Magic (eeeew FPS action crap) to interrupt spellcasting
There is none.
Both need to be executed at the right time to interrupt the spell, both need you to press a button.
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
You are seriously missing the point now because for some odd reason you are mad as hell atm.
I'm not asking to change the gameplay like you seem to imply, just to have a leveling system where the gained power is not so ridicilous compared between a handful of levels. I dont really understand how your ranting about RPG's being about the character or even mentioning FPS or twitch based games has anything at all to do with that.
I am not angry. Maybe mildly annoyed.
If that is what you meant you should have said so. You said and this is a direct quote, advancement based on your pool of abilities. And that leads to flavor of the month.
You also made comments about a "good" player and a "bad" player which is where twitch comes in. RPGs are inherently based on CHARACTER SKILLS and not PLAYER SKILLS. Thus a "good" player is one with a character with high level skills. Did you mean a player who makes smart decisions? Because that is all about either mathcrafting or twitch. So which one did you mean by "good"? A min maxer who deals with picking the ideal spec and skill set, or someone with twitch?
Do you just want a low capped level system ala guildwars? Because that means that advancement is based on flavor of the month skill picks, just like guild wars is. Certain skills are almost always better with the occassional FOTM when someone does some mathcrafting on a new skill.
You have failed to list a method which is less arbitrary than levels or skill levels or min maxing skill selection which is not twitch. So that is why I assume you refer to twitch.
Seriously, I dont know how you read what I write since you keep going in strange directions with your replies that has nothing to do with what I've been saying. I'll try once more, and please leave the FPS and/or twitch aspect out of this completely now, nothing that I say has anything to do with FPS or twitch gameplay, or class balance or any of that, only about the way of leveling (what the topic is about and what I've been trying to discuss).
I can only respond to what you type, I am not a telepath who can determine your intent with some weird brain magic.
So, we level in a standard themepark mmorpg. We gain not only abilities and talent points but also a ton of stats, along with new gear with a ton + truckload and a few cargoholds worth of stats. That means, while lvl10 player has 1000 hitpoints and does 100 dps, lvl20 player has 2000 hitpoints and does 200 dps along with having better talents and more abilities. When these two characters meet in the battlefield, it is pre-determined that lvl20 player wins no matter what.
If 2 humans meet on the field of battle it is predetermined to a high degree that the better skilled fighter will win. RPGs are about character skills. Thus the player with the character who has more skill will win. That is the nature of an RPG.
Is it a good system when it is decided before the battle takes place who wins it? What I'm saying is, introduce a system where everyone still gets levels because leveling is essential in RPG's, but instead 1000hp and 100dps VS. 2000hp and 200dps + more abilities and talents, give a system where it's more like 1000hp and 100dps VS. 1100hp and 110 dps PLUS the extra abilities and talents. AT LEAST the lvl10 player now would have a chance to defend himself against that higher level players, while in the current system he does not have any chance at all.
Who wins has already been determined in any contest before the players were even born. But even for people who do not understand how the universe functions we can say that who wins in a fight is determined as soon as the entrants are determined. The player who is better is pretty much assured to win even before the fight starts. This is somewhat changed by random factors, and by random we refer to either quantam fluctuations or deterministic factors which the players are just not capable of understanding but which were set in motion long before the fight. So when two characters are within a certain range of each other rng and human-simulated rng factors determine the winner.
In RPGs the best skilled character, because RPGS are about characters, is generally expected to win. Among even skill characters the winner is determined by randomness, either a random number generator or by a player who stands in as an unknowable and complex factor which cannot be measured.
So in fact RPGs are relatively good simulators of the practical effects of reality. This is a philosophical debate however and I don't expect to convince you because people are only convinced by true arguments when they already have an incentive to discard their previous beliefs, which you clearly don't.
Player skill merely means that you are not intelligent or informed enough to weigh all the factors properly and come to the correct conclusion. If we attempted to make RPGs even more like real life where we didn't have such static and obvious measurements of factors than players would whine like little babies that the game was unfair or that someone cheated, ironically this is a perfect example of what game designers mean when they say that making lifelike AI is not conducive to producing satisfied players. In games where AI act in such a way as to be as "random" "emergent" or "innovative" as human players and are not in fact cheating players perceive the AI to be cheating. In another amusing irony if we claim that a non cheating AI is a person and have a player play it the player does not perceive that their opponent cheated. Now isn't that interesting?
Also this would not make the "outleveled" areas complete waste of space for higher level players when there would still be some challenge, some gear perhaps to obtain and so on. Now there's no point in going back other than killing people in PvP that can do nothing else but die because the outcome of the fight is PRE-DETERMINED before the fight even starts.
Again the outcome of all fights are predetermined and you are just too ignorant to perceive the outcome. And I am not being elitist. There are many things that I am not capable of predicting. But I am able to recognize the reason for that and you clearly aren't. The ideal way to make games more realistic is to increase the number of factors so that the player is not able to tell whether a fight will be predetermined but then players will again whine like little babies that the AI cheated.
I'll quote my self from the previous post to summarize: "I'm not asking to change the gameplay like you seem to imply, just to have a leveling system where the gained power is not so ridicilous compared between a handful of levels." Now please do not bring any FPS or twitch aspect into this, I dont want to turn any RPG into some other type of game, just smoothen the ridicilously enormous level differences to smaller ones, NOT ONLY to give some point in players of different levels fighting eachothers instead of the current cat and mouse game, but also to make previously visited areas usable for players. TOR is a good example of one of the new mmorpgs where there is absolutely no point in going back to previous planets because the power curve of your char through leveling and gear is way too steep.
I know that you said you are not asking to change the gameplay. You might even believe that you aren't. That has nothing to do with the objective fact that none of your suggestions are viable and that to achieve your stated goals you would have to change the fundamental nature of RPGs. Did you know that people who have the most objective view of reality have both higher intelligence and significantly higher rates of depression. This is because we cannot lie to ourselves or fool ourselves like people who are ignorant of objective reality in order to make ourselves feel better. Indeed I don't expect you to change your mind, hell I would go back to being like you if I could possibly manage it, life is happier that way. Ignorance is bliss.
I have to get back to this also, you said this: "You also made comments about a "good" player and a "bad" player which is where twitch comes in. RPGs are inherently based on CHARACTER SKILLS and not PLAYER SKILLS." <- That is just wrong, make 2 EXACTLY similar characters with class gear everything exactly the same, and duel. The player who is better at the game will win every time. Bad players are clickers, they loose with equal gear on against non-clickers every time, it's player skills, not character skills. You can be a worse or better player on SO MANY levels in any RPG, through your knowledge of classes, better reflexes, PvP experience and so on and so on.
As I explained above, the human contribution in RPGs is to simulate variables so complex that they cannot be comprehended because games are designed by humans and are quite simple compared to reality so we need to add artificial chaos and randomness to games through RNG and human input to make it seem real.
I would say that I pity you for your ignorance but in fact I pity myself for my truth. I am explaining the world to you in the vain hope of converting you because misery loves company and people who believe as I do are quite rare. I blame suicide and lack of desire to bring a child into such a depressing world. Also social disfunction.
Comments
Because if your character was static throughout the game or even got weaker during the game, you would feel like your time is being wasted. An MMO should have the goal to retain a subscriber for as long as possible, so the player should feel like they are accomplishing something - not only in the story and the world, but also with their character.
I flipped tables when, playing Oblivion, I came across a bandit (normally enemies that wore hide armour) that was decked out in full glass, the most expensive light armour available, and tried to make me pay a fare of 5 gold. In Oblivion, you either stayed the same or got weaker as the game went on as enemies either got better equipment or got their health bloated, which makes no sense.
If my character was previously challenged by a goblin village during my first steps into a game, but later went on to become the hero of the world through an amazing amount of time and effort, I should be able to completely obliterate goblins when I return. They shouldn't 'scale to my level' or receive 10000 more health to provide a 'challenge' for me. Did pen and paper RPGs make you static or weaker as you progressed? How about some of the actual good cRPGs (PS:T, Bloodlines)?
Should basic rats in the newbie area suddenly become giant sacks of health with diamond-tipped fangs and poison saliva if your Swordsmanship skill increases to 50? When you get that Breastplate of Armchair Game Development +5 (chance to post a devcorner thread that makes no sense when hit), should all the monsters in the game hit you as if you were wearing Minor Rags of Sandbox Threads -1 (chance to post a sandbox thread on this site when hit)?
I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.
No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.
He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.
You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.
Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.
You can have perfectly good leveling system without the need to gain 100k hitpoints, in fact you dont need a single hitpoint during the leveling, just abilities and talents etc, then your character improves all the time so you get the feeling of improving and expanding on your char but you dont get retartedly powerful demigod, who can fart earlier areas to oblivion and who still cant even touch some higher end areas because the number next to the name does not allow it. Very limiting system that causes huge imbalances in world PvP and creates impenetrable artificial barriers everywhere you look untill you hit max level.
I think the old system is fine, in sense that I play games that use it and enjoy my self doing so, it's just that I'd enjoy a lot more system that is a bit more open and does not define characters entirely based on A.) The little number next to their names or B.) Their gear level if they are on max level. Both of those should affect the character, but not define the character.
Now I'm gonna rant here for a little so you can just ignore me if you want.
First off i do agree that progression is important, and the lv up system that has been a defining method of progress since the start of modern games, and it works quite well... that said at a certain point it just seems silly. Take, for instance, a lv 3 goblin, now if your character is lv 1 it might seem a bit of a challenge to kill, now with that over with 20 lvs latter your fight a huge lv 20 dragon boss, and this guy is a hell of a b*tch to kill. you have been at it for 30 min and you finally fell the beast, then another one pops up and a lv 60 goblin walks up and one hits it... da fuq. a goblin could kill that beast in an instant after all that time you spent facing off against it... oh wait there is more remember that lv 3 goblin, well he comes up a smashes you in the skull with his spiked club, oh wait pft who cares that attack that used to take half your health doesn't do crap to you now... a now, once again a da fuq moment. there is no way in hell that getting smashed in the skull with a spiked club would do nothing to you, and there is no way in hell that a crappy goblin would be able to take down a dragon in a single blow.
At such poin the flaws of lving become painfully obvious, and yet as mmos, neigh, nearly all games today are nearly completely bound to this system. however to change such a system one would have to drastically change the core mechanics of the said game. And even if you try to break away from such a system you are still bound to the need of progression. oh and by the way a tip of my hat to Nexon for at the vary least trying to do it with such games as mabinogi, dragon's nest, and vindictus. that said no one has ever been able to truly succeed at it. and i give a big ol wag of my finger to all the WoW clones out there who don't even bother trying.
Now i know that games, and in particular mmos, have large developing times that goes into, and that sometimes one simply cannot afford to take such risks. However as technology advanced faster and faster one starts to expect more and more from their games. And i understand that sometimes it is better to just continue doing what you are doing, but at some point someone is going to have to take a leap of faith less the world be doomed to continually repeat the same mistakes over and over again till the end of time.
You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.
It doesn't matter what progresses - HP, levels, skills, items, whatever. There still needs to be progression in order for it to not be bad. I didn't say levels entirely - did you check the bottom paragraph of my post?
Because Luke Skywalker can't even think about beating the final boss Darth Vader until he levels up on training droids, recieves experience points from Yoda, defeats the dungeon boss Rancor, gets a Medallion with +stats from the Rebellion, and does a darth vadar easy mode in Cloud City. THEN he will be ready for Death Star HardMode with the Emperor Bonus Boss.
Does that explain why you need to level up?
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.
You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.
Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?
What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.
What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.
I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?
RPGs are not about being better at twitch.
It's not a problem that needs addressing. What you want is a different genre. Action/Adventure, Adventure, or Action with RPG elements.
Devil May Cry is an action game.
Devil May Cry 3 is an action game with RPG elements (most action games these days like to incorporate some type of item, or player leveling).
Adventure games are similar to RPG's, but are RPG-lite. There are watered down versions of a full RPG (this should not be equated with "worse").
Zelda is an adventure game.
Skyrim is an RPG.
Some people like RPG's, but they don't really want all the fiddly stats and such.
Action/Adventure is Diablo 2. It's a hack'nslash action type gameplay with a gameworld with lore and a few RPG elements, but it doesn't fully fall on either side.
I agree.
OP, I think you're in the wrong genre.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
There is a natural need for humans to become more powerful. More money, more career successful, more girls (or guys) ....
RPG is just a reflection of that psychological need.
The focus of any RPG is to play a role in that world.
But to answer your question about why you have to become more powerful... You dont have to. You can decide to after you get your butt smeared by that pig outside of town because you attacked it thinking it was going to be an easy meal.
Ironically, the skill trees in d2, with all the possibilities are something which very few mmo games have managed to outdo.
Flame on!
RPGs are not what you think they are.
Our studies show that this is what you want.
Yes they are? That's why nearly every RPG has followed that pattern of levels or skills and exp and being about character power and not player skill. Its nice that you can post a one liner without support but at least try for an example. WoW, UO, EQ, every WoW clone ever follow the pattern I described.
You are seriously missing the point now because for some odd reason you are mad as hell atm.
I'm not asking to change the gameplay like you seem to imply, just to have a leveling system where the gained power is not so ridicilous compared between a handful of levels. I dont really understand how your ranting about RPG's being about the character or even mentioning FPS or twitch based games has anything at all to do with that.
haha, yeah.
I know a couple of people mentioned that I am in the wrong genre of wanting this problem addressed, and I disagree completely. RPGs have had me from the beginning. I'm still playing final fantasy games after years, most recently I'm going back through XIII, and one thing that I notice right away is as I'm leveling, more and more gameplay options are openning up. I have yet to go through a long series of battles in which I perform the same actions over and over. Everything opens up a new strategy.
This is how I feel character progression should be. My character becoming more powerful in his toolset, not just the raw numbers. Bigger numbers mean nothing at all if there is no added challenge.
The issue with out leveling content is more of a sidebar, but the principle is the same as you level up in most MMOs. Just keep doing what you were doing before. Nothing gets harder or more intricate, and the only sense of progression you have is just bigger numbers, and that is just bull****.
Raid progression is done pretty well in some games. Boss mechanics get harder, but gear checks still exist (to force a grind and artificial gate, ugh).
I think GW2 and TSW are on the right track, TERA maybe as well. But I still think that stat leveling divides the communities too much.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift
Willing to try anything new
Levels started with PNP... DnD dates back to 1974. So at least 38 years. And a hell of a lot of PnP had HP or other increases with skill increases when leveling (although certainly not all).
On original topic, getiing rid of this level progress (in any of its forms) is a tough sell to RPG'ers as it is inherit in the genere, and as stated several times in this thread is a phychological reward for playing. Could it be flattened and not nearly as dramatic from doing say 5 dmg at lvl 1 to 25k damage at cap? In my opinion, that would be a welcome change. Flattening for a thempark could make all content a bit more accessible, whether you are too low or high a level for content, and for both themeparks and sandboxes would make PvP less about lvl/gear than skill/tactical advantage.
Often lurking, rarely posting
I just stumbled into this thread and this is the first thing I see...
Dude... Chill....
----
On Topic:
For a RPG to feel fulfilling (in My Personal opinion and experience) there need to be some kind of progression.
Now when I RP in PnP RPGs we usually don't play Dungeons and Dragons or any other game with a leveling system but rather what would be consider "skill based" - just you don't earn skill points very often. Instead we focus on Story and Character Development in the form of personal growth and fulfilling ambitions. That is, of course, all well and good ina PnP RPG, the roleplaying takes a different form than it (usually) does online; and though the character development approach would work for actual Roleplayers (the ones that play RPGs for roleplay and story rather than stats and purple pixels) I doubt it'd work in (for example) an MMO simply because most MMO players (imo) aren't like that and most don't create their own stories. Perhaps mainly since no MMO really cater to Storytellers.
I guess, as well, that in PnP RPGs the storyteller can easily describe an enviorment or an artifact of doom and simply 'invent it' , but in MMOs we're "stuck" with what we have.
Thus, some sort of character progression is needed as we cannot develop our character through story or emotional growth (or in some cases simply don't want to) to prevent the game and characters from growing static.
And here's where levels, skills etc. comes in. These are not the culprit though imo. The real antagonist is the almighty "endgame" as perceived by the general MMO populace today.
I never played UO much but I did play a lot of SWG pre-cu (and no, I'm not one of "those" veterans) and I think similar systems are the key.
For example, make a skill based system, let the skills be fairly hard to master and give the ability to learn skills that include other stuff than combat abilities (building houses etc.). Make sure the most awesome items (when it comes to crafting) in the game also require different mats and skill and limit the amount of skills you can learn, thus forcing people to come together.
Now, that takes (somewhat) care of the crafting bit and the questions of "what should I do when I don't bash heads", but what about combat?
Let's face it, today combat is essential. However, why does it have to be so "over the top"?
In reality, if someone stands naked before you , it matters little if you stab them with a longsword or a dagger. It hurts, and without medical attention they die. Sure, the sword has the potential of doing more damage if used right, but in the end it matters little. The techniques differ, however, if you are to fight properly with them and they each have scenarios where the other is more useful (mace vs. sword for example).
So why not build on that instead? Give character new moves, make swords etc. do a baseline amount of damage though with different kinds of damage (blunt, slashing etc.). Make armors reflect it.
Personally, and yes - it is subjective, I don't need more in the way of combat. All wars in our world has been fought by sword and shield, not magic. Would a MMO with combat in similar fashion be so bad?
Though, of course, no major gaming studio would produce this and the above are ramblings that probably don't even make sense since I wrote them this late. Sorry 'bout the wall of text. I didn't think I'd actually write that much.
I am not angry. Maybe mildly annoyed.
If that is what you meant you should have said so. You said and this is a direct quote, advancement based on your pool of abilities. And that leads to flavor of the month.
You also made comments about a "good" player and a "bad" player which is where twitch comes in. RPGs are inherently based on CHARACTER SKILLS and not PLAYER SKILLS. Thus a "good" player is one with a character with high level skills. Did you mean a player who makes smart decisions? Because that is all about either mathcrafting or twitch. So which one did you mean by "good"? A min maxer who deals with picking the ideal spec and skill set, or someone with twitch?
Do you just want a low capped level system ala guildwars? Because that means that advancement is based on flavor of the month skill picks, just like guild wars is. Certain skills are almost always better with the occassional FOTM when someone does some mathcrafting on a new skill.
You have failed to list a method which is less arbitrary than levels or skill levels or min maxing skill selection which is not twitch. So that is why I assume you refer to twitch.
Seriously, I dont know how you read what I write since you keep going in strange directions with your replies that has nothing to do with what I've been saying. I'll try once more, and please leave the FPS and/or twitch aspect out of this completely now, nothing that I say has anything to do with FPS or twitch gameplay, or class balance or any of that, only about the way of leveling (what the topic is about and what I've been trying to discuss).
So, we level in a standard themepark mmorpg. We gain not only abilities and talent points but also a ton of stats, along with new gear with a ton + truckload and a few cargoholds worth of stats. That means, while lvl10 player has 1000 hitpoints and does 100 dps, lvl20 player has 2000 hitpoints and does 200 dps along with having better talents and more abilities. When these two characters meet in the battlefield, it is pre-determined that lvl20 player wins no matter what.
Is it a good system when it is decided before the battle takes place who wins it? What I'm saying is, introduce a system where everyone still gets levels because leveling is essential in RPG's, but instead 1000hp and 100dps VS. 2000hp and 200dps + more abilities and talents, give a system where it's more like 1000hp and 100dps VS. 1100hp and 110 dps PLUS the extra abilities and talents. AT LEAST the lvl10 player now would have a chance to defend himself against that higher level players, while in the current system he does not have any chance at all.
Also this would not make the "outleveled" areas complete waste of space for higher level players when there would still be some challenge, some gear perhaps to obtain and so on. Now there's no point in going back other than killing people in PvP that can do nothing else but die because the outcome of the fight is PRE-DETERMINED before the fight even starts.
I'll quote my self from the previous post to summarize: "I'm not asking to change the gameplay like you seem to imply, just to have a leveling system where the gained power is not so ridicilous compared between a handful of levels." Now please do not bring any FPS or twitch aspect into this, I dont want to turn any RPG into some other type of game, just smoothen the ridicilously enormous level differences to smaller ones, NOT ONLY to give some point in players of different levels fighting eachothers instead of the current cat and mouse game, but also to make previously visited areas usable for players. TOR is a good example of one of the new mmorpgs where there is absolutely no point in going back to previous planets because the power curve of your char through leveling and gear is way too steep.
I have to get back to this also, you said this: "You also made comments about a "good" player and a "bad" player which is where twitch comes in. RPGs are inherently based on CHARACTER SKILLS and not PLAYER SKILLS." <- That is just wrong, make 2 EXACTLY similar characters with class gear everything exactly the same, and duel. The player who is better at the game will win every time. Bad players are clickers, they loose with equal gear on against non-clickers every time, it's player skills, not character skills. You can be a worse or better player on SO MANY levels in any RPG, through your knowledge of classes, better reflexes, PvP experience and so on and so on.
If you truly and really believe that, you are misguided.
If RPGs are solely based on dice-rolls, and by that i mean -SOLELY-, then i will eat a copy of Baldurs Gate, on camera, with no milk to wash it down.
Even in the most hardcore RPGs there is something like player skill, actually -especially- in the hardcore RPGs. Using the right spells, the right powers, the right positioning, is imperative to win, and yes, thats also SKILL. Even pressing the right buttons at the right time in WoW requires some degree of skill. Micromanaging your party in an encounter requires skill.
But of course you are not talking about that, because that would be silly and crazytalk.
Instead you treat one type of skill as the "proper RPG skill" and the other skill like manual aiming, dodging and clicking to shoot at the right time as "eeeeew icky FPS!!!! GTFO MY RPGS!!!" while both are actually -equal- as gameplay mechanics.
What is the difference between:
a. activating the "Kick" skill on a Rogue in WoW to interrupt spellcasting
b. using "Kick" in Dark Messiah of Might And Magic (eeeew FPS action crap) to interrupt spellcasting
There is none.
Both need to be executed at the right time to interrupt the spell, both need you to press a button.
Both need skill.
As I explained above, the human contribution in RPGs is to simulate variables so complex that they cannot be comprehended because games are designed by humans and are quite simple compared to reality so we need to add artificial chaos and randomness to games through RNG and human input to make it seem real.
I would say that I pity you for your ignorance but in fact I pity myself for my truth. I am explaining the world to you in the vain hope of converting you because misery loves company and people who believe as I do are quite rare. I blame suicide and lack of desire to bring a child into such a depressing world. Also social disfunction.