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SWTOR: From co-op to MMORPG
Deewe
Member UncommonPosts: 1,980
[Repost for those who don't lurk on SWTOR forums]
Would TOR have been advertised as a co-op game, mostly everyone would agree it's innovative and a great game. Thing is we all know it's supposed to be more than that.
Pretty sure by now, everyone is aware of the game issues and design flaws. If such is your mood, you might want to jump to constructive posts like theses: #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7
Still with us, good. Welcome aboard then!
Allow me to start with a statement:
In every coach potato lies a great Football/ Baseball / Basketball / Soccer... player/trainer!
Guess you see where I'm going: In a way every MMO players is certainly a great game designer with years of experience 
Thing is it's easy to criticize something/someone, especially when it looks easy. Still when confronted with the reality check it's another game.. As such I'd ask people to, please, try to give constructive feedback in a way of, not only saying what works and what not, but more importantly explain how it could be improved.
Ladies and gentlemen, fasten your seat belts. Time for departure, let's dive in!
Disclaimer: Hopefully everyone aboard is looking forward playing MMO, otherwise you might have booked the wrong trip.
Without going as deep as suggesting SWTOR needs a total revamp, we're still going to experience very high pressures adventuring to some of its core elements.
In SWTOR you play, almost, alone.
Companions, zones design and chat UI are hindering the multiplayer pace of the game.
Question is: how improve multiplayer game play?
That's the million $ question, still may we suggest a few directions?
Make the game harder.
Incentives for socialization.
Grouping tools
#1: Make the game harder.
In modern society, humans does not look towards others unless they do need them.
As long as most of the game is soloable, players first reaction won't be to group nor interact with others.
Now if you tweak the game in a such way that players do require others to be successful their behavior will change drastically.
One way to do this would be to have "more intelligent" NPCs and mobs. For example there won't be anymore creatures not reacting when they see their friends being slaughtered by players.
Then make death more meaningful or would I say needing the care of others to fix you.
Not only it would make combat more realistic but also more challenging and IMHO more fun. The difficulty here is not to go to far making things tedious, for most.
#2: Incentives for socialization
Nobody talks anymore in MMO. Long gone the time of tells hell in SWG...
Being confronted to a difficult enemy is one way to make players socialize but there are more subtle ways.
Who said multiplayer mini games?
Pazaak, Sabacc, Pod/swoop racing, PvE/P arenas, all that with spectator modes and in game leaderboards with character's titles.
We're just scratching the surface here. Just a note: make it so all these have single player mode too but be sure to have the multiplayer parts only available in the social hubs.
RP tools and live events are also great ways to help players mix together.
Allow players to make a name of themselves this way.
#3: Grouping tools
Everything should be made to make grouping easy and rewarding.
Fist drastically reduce time sinks to meet with group mates. It shall not take more than 5 minutes for anyone to group with anyone else. As soon as meeting others becomes a time sink, you loose much of the appeal to group.
LFD/LFGLFM tools should be made by Apple like engineers. Players should be able to select any quests they want to group for and, not only advertise them, but also be able to browse through a list of players with matching quests.
As example DDO ineterface is a good start but needs the selec/browse feature.
Social points are a good idea but they lack a more interactive feature. Players should be able to score (karma?) a player after grouping with them.
Also /ignore should work on all characters of the selected player, servers wide and also on the forums. Just make sure players are obliged to enter a reason for ignoring the player and time stamp the entry. Might sound strange but make it so you loose a few points/karma if you /ignore a player too.
How about World PvP?
Let's be honest here, PvP isn't bad but too limited to specific zones.
#1: This is WAR!
There is no such thing as a safe zone during war.
PvP should not be limited to very specific area only, be it war zones or even large planets.
The game core design of remote and faction locked planets, can still be mitigated allowing players sneaking there, passing the blockades or breaking through the prisons walls after being captured by the opposite faction.
Make it hard for players to land on the most defended planets but make it possible and rewards them for doing so.
Catering players in 2 opposed factions was supposed to help players identify themselves with a greater and shared identity. That is if and only if the factions have something tangible for the players to be opposed upon. Bringing the WAR in SW, involving the players in it with real objectives tied with tangible rewards shall do the trick.
Also do restrain from doing same faction PvP, it's going to hinder seriously the eventual feeling of belonging to a specific faction by players. Maybe look at RIFT mercenary system, for example enhancing it by allowing players to flag themsleves as mercenaries.
One thing is certain, massive PvP battles do make players feel like they are in a MMO.
#2: Let's make PvE shady
In every PvEr lies a great PvPer.
Most PvE players don't know, yet, they can too enjoy PvP on major scale. Let them taste the adrenaline of epic fights and they'll ask for more. Make it so the PvE content gets shades of PvP in all zones. Pretty soon you'll find out most PvE players are really enjoying it and (sorry for the words) going to kick many of the PvPers butts as more organized. ^_^
But for sure ganking shall be seriously looked at and AoE should not trigger PvP flag on PvE servers if a player did not flag him/herself as PvP.
This ain't Clone Wars™, or is it?
Limited/restricted character look only fits single player games because you are not confronted with clones of yourself.
#1: Identification, uniqueness
In a MMO players need to identify themselves with their characters, be it Wookiees or even Hutts (sic!).
When mostly everyone is a clone due to the fact they are wearing the same gear of having the same haircut, players loose the appeal of theirs characters. For example gear stats should not decide how a character's look but the player's liking should be the decision criteria. Players should be surprised by others characters look, both in good and bad ways. A MMO should empower the players with the ownership of their characters look not otherwise.
#2: Belonging
While players do want to look cool and unique, showing off the belonging to a faction, a group, a guild is much looked after. A MMO should allow players to set up uniforms, wear guild emblems, paint their gear with a specific color palette. It's unique to MMO but also very poorly implemented in others MMO.
Hope you guys enjoyed the ride (wall of text).
Have fun!
Comments
Deewe I agree with your views on the game but i think you have a little to much time on your hands:) guess if there was actually anything good to play you would probably be there :P
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
betwen heroic quest, flash points and running into people doing the same quest I have never grouped as much in any other MMO I have played as I did in this one
and the "lets put pvp in pve quest" suggestion can die in a fire, I'll do pvp when i want to pvp
So what this thread boils down to, is force people to play the way you want them to play. Sorry bro I am not on board with that idea, if I feel like grouping I will and if I don't I won't. The same goes for pvping and talking as well, there are times when I don't want to be bothered with other players and just go on about my business. As far as grouping goes I have no problems finding groups for FPs or Heroics, I guess that is because I choose to be a healer instead of dps number 10000002.
If the game was designed the way the OP seems to want, I for one wouldn't be interested in playing it.
I'm not going to say that SWTOR doesn't have its problems, but I keep hearing two criticism about this game that I found to be untrue:
1 - Socialization.
Like so many other people, I have never grouped as much in any other game (with the exception of Asheron's Call) as I did in SWTOR. Every heroic area has been done in a group and even though I don't generally like to look for group, I have been able to find one easily within a few mins.
So, the social aspect of SWTOR is actually enoyable, with the exception of annoying players that keep flaming chat with stupid comments.
2 - Easy difficulty.
I don't know where this is coming from or maybe it's the classes that I chose to play, but I definitely died and ran from mobs in SWTOR more than any other theme park game, especially WoW.
In WoW, I could stand in one spot, spam 1,2,3 keys and rince and repeat for hours without as much as a rest.
Here, I find myself challenged by quite a few mobs and the first time I faced that annoying Padawan on Black Talon, both I and my group mate kept swearing because we had to find a successful strategy to defeat her and finally did so after 4-5 deaths.
So I definitely don't think this game is easy...
I review lots of indie games and MMORPGs
I would've thought the questing system felt too contrived... as if they had to invent reasons for you to visit each of their 13 planets for the appropriate number of levels and side quests - before moving on to the next.
Great RPGs (Mass Effect... Dragon Age: Origins, for instance) don't feel that way.
I would've said the graphics were even more below expectations. I give them some leeway because it's an MMO... because in my mind, that is to allow for some very massive situations (which we have unfortunately found the game can't handle very well even at reduced quality).
Deewee have you even played the game? Much of your criticism doesn't apply to the SWTOR I played.
Excellent post but unfourtunately none of it will ever happen. Bioware has made it painstakingly aware that they thing the game is perfect as it is and all they will do is to tweak here and there, a new Flashpoint there and a Warzone there. Too bad but this game is WoW 2.0 and nothing more.
My gaming blog
#2 you know what would be better than mini games? A reward system attached to all of the content in the game that rewards players for grouping up to complete it, from the easiest quests to the hardest hard mode.
Oh wait! That's in the game! Rewarding socialization indeed.
#3 Bioware has acknowledged the need for this tool publicly. They claim to be working on it. They won't get away with not having it for long.
PvP
#1 two parter.
Part 1 - removing safe zones? Not going to happen in SWTOR, ever. Again, the audience for this game would shrink significantly. This is a suggestion forthem to sabotage their own game. This isn't Eve or Darkfall and it never will be.
Part 2 - this is just flat out wrong. There are people that just aren't good at PvP. They'll usually be the first to admit it. In fact, I wish a lot less people participated in PvP. There are plenty of players that PvP who are not good at it. We don't need more of them in there screwing around.
last section
#1 I seriously cannot think of another MMO in existence where I identified with my character more than SWTOR. My character is more than a backside that my camera follows around while I kill stuff
He has a voice. He expresses his emotion, both physically and vocally. He has goals, desires, friends, and enemies. There are facial expressions and body language. He has his own beliefs. He can fall in love and be betrayed. He can be happy, sad, angry, confused, bored, and many other emotions.
2. Even in most games that feature this capability, it is very limited functionally. Even in games where this functionality is implemented well, I think a guild that has all of their members look the same look goody as crap.
I saw this a lot in Global Agenda, for example, and I always laughed a little bit when I saw one of these agencies.
Besides, Weren't you just complaining that characters aren't unique enough? But you want a game system that encourages guilds to make all of their members look the same like uniforms and emblems. So you want characters to be unique, but you don't mind if guilds are allowed to make themselves all look the same.
In summary: I don't like your ideas, except for the paint.
IMO, but they are not good ideas with the exception of custom paint for armor. That would be a welcome addition for me. I think most of your suggestions would do more harm than good to the game.
edit: iPhone autocorrect madness.
Shadow's Hand Guild
Open recruitment for
The Secret World - Dragons
Planetside 2 - Terran Republic
Tera - Dragonfall Server
http://www.shadowshand.com
First of all, thanks for a thread that does not eat brains of the reader like most of the "critizism" here.
You have good points more or less over the post imo, but I dont agree with the "forced" grouping. I like the current model where you can solo your story if you so wish but then there is also harder encounters where you need a group. What I would ask is to make more open world heroics and turn them into public quests, but dont twist the foundation into "forced" grouping.
I agree with the minigames completely, I was actually under the impression a few months before the launch that this game would have more than the space game, the space game is a good engine for POD/swoop racing imo, just add multiplayer to it too. Pazaak, oh yes, asap!
Good thing is they are working on mechanics like LFG, UI etc already, I just hope they dont stall too much with adding actual new/should-have-been-at-launch stuff into the game.
Look it's the dude who keeps telling everyone what the future brings or wont bring. I'm wondering how many of the mmorpg.com readers actually visit "real" fortune teller hags, lol.
Oh and, if none of it will happen, what about the stuff in OP that Bioware is already working on? Your credibility across the board just went from low to none.
Why do people take every game and try to force PvP into. I think because the PvP based games are with few exceptions failures. These people then like to carry their plague to every other game.
Ok i dont know about most of the issue you but one incentive.why would i do x y z stuff.also some tool used by bw to design swtor some include the choice between ram and fps so guess wich they took.ya less ram consumpion but also less fps (sadly)i dont need to point finger since those are on the web since at least 12 month prior to game lauch.i dont know if the coice they made can be reverted but i sure hope so but then you hit the infamous 3.5 gb limit of ram an i begin to suspect lot of compromise wow hat to make for ram that afted fps will go away at pandaria lunch.25 fps gain in any mmo is very good even if you need 200 mb to do it
I read you on the forced grouping, you do have a very valid point.
In a way MMO are more like living worlds (more on that later) in which you can evolve and encounter others player's managed characters.
However if too much of the game is soloable the game ends as and only as you with player's animated toon around you.
It all depends how you envision MMO. Still grouping while not mandatory should IMHO be the core gameplay of MMO.
No, the game really is pretty freaking easy. The enemies are very predictable, once you get the basic strategy down. We did the flashpoint on Black Talon, and did it without dying. You knew when the padawan was going to do her thing, you just had to make sure to start moving. We did the mid second flashpoint (gosh I can't remember the name right now, but its for the low 20's) and we died twice. One because we were learning the tactics, the next because I was a nub and hit the wrong key, causing me to pull aggro instead of my companion (we were using companions as tanks as it was a sorc and two gun classes) and the group got wiped pretty quickly because of that.
But once we did it right, for the three of us, none of us got below 50% health during the boss fight. For these kind of instances, static barrier really is that freakin OP.
When we did it again with an actual player tank, none of us died at all throughout the instance. Sadly I'm told by all the other 50's I play with, this is what I should expect as I hit 50 and start doing the other raids/ops. The only difference is the bosses have more health. They don't really have a wide variety of attacks, and it is rather easy to figure out their tactics. For those of us with a lot of pve experience, there's really not much to complain about.
Outside of heroics, every quest is made to be a solo quest. And even the heroics, they aren't that hard since the elites don't really bring new tactics to the table, they just have more health. Just know how to intelligently pull aggro, keep your shields up, and heal properly.
They need to develop more social tools in questing, and that involves challenging group quests, even for just one other player. (Not a heroic, but just your plain jane group quest.)
Let's say there are 30 or so quests per planet. Maybe 3 of them are quests where you have to group. That's about a 10% ratio. That's not a lot of grouping opportunities. If you actually decide to group up with another human player, both having companions, it becomes a cinch unless you are specifically doing heroics. And even then, if a heroic says you should have 4 people, take 3 to make it a challenge. With 4, it becomes WAY too easy, provided your mates have a modicum of knowledge about the game.
Another way to do it is this. Allow you to set the difficulty of a quest. POTBS used to do this. You had a "port captain" npc, where before you set out, you could choose one of 6 difficulty levels. You still got the same amount of XP for completing a quest. Yet if you jacked the difficulty up to admiral (the highest setting), completing that quest become a lot harder. There were more NPC's, and the NPC's were tougher. While you didn't get "better" loot, you got more of it, and more doubloons (credits.) The best part? It was completely optional.
An ideal ratio would be 33% grouping opportunities on a planet if we are sticking with the current difficulty.
So I say this game needs an option to let you increase the difficulty for every quest. That way the solo players can still play solo. But for those of us who want to group, you get better rewards, better xp, and most importantly, a challenge.
You are 100% right saying most people want to solo and can't stand the epeen stroking that comes with PvP.
However I'm not sure PvE players would be that owned in PvP. Maybe I'm delusional but I still think while in the current MMO wide implementation PvP isn't their cup of tea, it can be improved to bring them to the genre and have them enjoy it a lot.
The bounty system has an issue as, lore wise, it would not be fitting to have Jedis doing it. But a good BH system would go a long way to improve the PvP for sure.
I don't think there's world PvP in TOR, yet. Still you might have an interesting idea here. Taking planets and establishing strongholds. The PvP fans could fight against others players while on the same planet, at the same time the PvE players would do missions, crafting, instances to help support the war effort. I call it shades of PvP
And yes, the CC do nead some rework.
(Good post BTW)
WOW what am i doing wrong lol I have a level 35 sage healer spec and a level 30 sentinel. I have not been able to get a single group eveyone just wants to solo. The game feels like a single player game with some MMO aspects bolted on.
Right a good story can explain many things. Glad to see you didn't fall in the trap and do have imagination
A few controlable planets are good. Hoewever we must not forget PvP, especially on PvP servers should be available on every planets.
Smuggling missions, behind enemy lines recon missions, skirmish of weak points would be great for PvP and PvE. And I really like the convoy mission too. Some kind of escort mission but with a more tangible prize/objective.
Guild projects, like building capital ships and having to defend the factory at the same time. Interesting.
The last one is too much like EVE.
Hey, I like it, but not really feasible given current mechanics. Bad space play and all. Or do you mean capital ships being built on ground?
But speaking of capital ships..... they really should've tied them into guild projects from the start. If not, something they should add in. Guild capital ships. Even if you aren't using them in pvp, just make them a hub for your guild. A hangar for ships. On ship cantina. Whatever. It stays mainly with the Imperial/Republic fleet, just make it a seperate instance. Have a holo room where you can make holocalls starting up flashpoints/operations. Be able to have "sales represenatives" which basically function as vendors. This actually gives something long-term for pve players to work towards.
i wouldnt call it WoW 2.0... i enjoy every minute in swtor, but it is nowhere near my enjoyment in WoW. OR maybe its WoW 2.0 as in another version of WoW, but not necessarily 2.0 as in upgrade
I often disagree with you dubyahite, but I think you are spot on with this post.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Was thinking space but can be done with grounded factories too.
I find the idea of guild halls interesting for RP and displaying trophies still they should not compete as social hubs against the NPC social hubs. It's a bad idea to scatter the MMO population in multiple social hubs.