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General: Five Dead MMO Horses

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  • ropeniceropenice Member UncommonPosts: 588

    Originally posted by DaddyDark

    The best IMMERSION I had in MMO was in the DC Universe online. You don't have to constantly think about your 20 abilities and cooldowns and you don't have to calculate the dps based on 15 stats... lol  It was just like magic - you play the old-school platformer  fightning...  complete the quests and have your new objectives delivered to you by the mentor with voiceover, while you fly to the new objective...  no lenghty running, no quest-turning... you just play naturally ... oh - good times... ! -) But they screwed up the endgame... -(((




     



    Hmmm...doesn't sound immersive.

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,977

    Originally posted by Marcelino

    I thought this was an article about actual dead horses in mmo lore lmao






     

    LOL, I just saw it and thought this topic was about MMO genre and themes/setting that are old and redone over nad over.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,338

    Grouping vs solo content in MMORPG's, now there's a dead horse we love to beat on.

    It extends further on whether or not MMO's should encourage (or even force) player socialization and dependence, with people firmly entrenched in opposite camps and a solid group of folks sitting  in the middle willing to go either way.

     

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596

    We are supposed to stop "beating a dead horse" about some of the most important aspects of MMO games?  How can these topics even be a dead horse when they are some of the most discussed on this website?

    The main problem is that people should stop pretending that Sandbox MMOs and Themepark MMOs are in the same genre or class of game.  They are completely different games, and many of the arguments and misunderstandings on this website are directly caused by this fact.

     

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • KorhindiKorhindi Member CommonPosts: 395

    The reason the proverbial horse keeps getting beaten is because it is not truly dead.

     

    It is only dead for those who WANT it to be. image

  • BlindchanceBlindchance Member UncommonPosts: 1,077

    Well done with mistaking progression with grind.

     

    Coffee ice cream, anyone ?

  • LeetheLeethe Member UncommonPosts: 893

    The second anyone, even Blizzard, comes up with a PvE focused sandbox game that's polished, expansive and feature complete they will have the genre in their hands.

    No one knows what a good sandbox is like because it has been so long since anybody played one. Darkfall is a sandbox but the full loot pvp (and the developer) wedges it firmly into a niche. I had hopes for earthrise but...sheesh! What the hell happened there? Fallen Earth looked  hopeful but how can you make an FPS MMO with targeting a combat that sluggish? You figure that would be the one thing they get right. 

    The search continues.

    There is NO miracle patch.

    95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.

    Hope is not a stategy.
    ______________________________
    "This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."

  • MacroHardMacroHard Member Posts: 104

    I'm going to keep preaching about "actual" end-game content until developers/publishers finally get their heads out of their asses and create meaningful end games... gear runs and PvP that changes nothing are not worthy content imo yet that is still all that is being offered.

    Here is a decent example of meaningful end-game content:


    1. Guilds pool resources and find an ideal location in the world to buckle down and build the Town Hall (placement/construction done by Guild Architect.  Other structures can then be built to enhance the guild and its members.

    2. Guilds must defend their towns and must have a good reason to even build them in the first place (economic and social incentives among others..).

    3. Through object permanance, guilds can raid enemy towns and form factions with both NPC towns and other player built towns.

    4. Servers initially populated with large NPC towns (or of varying sizes) and due to backstory, dynamic npc factions can be modified and influenced by players (player interaction++).

    5. An automated trading system of sorts based on the building of Market Places encourages NPCs to flock to player towns and can even be the basis for a "mini game" of sorts, such as caravans that travel from one Market Place of one city to another.  Caravans/convoys are raidable features that enemies can attack to try and disrupt faction economies (part of the guild incentives from point 2).

    6. Professions can be centered around increasing overall guild functionality.

    7. A World Progression System that advances the game's current story and decision trees that are directly/indirectly influenced by players as a whole on each server (to give the chance for each server to progress differently).

    Give players the tools to influence end game and create a game that caters to its player base for a change.. instead of the other way around.  Am I way off base?

  • AthcearAthcear Member Posts: 420

    I think the voiced dialogue (not so much from NPCs, but the things that my character says) have given TOR a fair bit of immersion.  I really got into shaping the personality of my Sorcerer.

    Important facts:
    1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
    2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
    3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
    4. Community is more important than you think.

  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Member Posts: 1,277

    I cast my vote for #6 MMO Dead Horse: Community

    People tear each other apart on these forums over the slightest difference of opinion, then hoist the proverbial pillar of community as being the cornerstone of a great mmo. The irony is staggering.

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • TribbleHuntrTribbleHuntr Member Posts: 4

    Originally posted by Naucano

    Speaking of whacking dead horses...

    It would be great if everybody would use the same name for the same idea, or at least know what they are talking about. 

    Immersion ? Sandbox game ? Endgame ?

    A MMO does not have an "endgame", that is for singleplayer RPG and very typical for the main quest. MMO's never "end". Maybe you have done it all. You reach level cap, no more quests. Maybe you reach the cap after defeating a boss, but  the only end you reach, is the end where the main quests, if any, is out of resources. It takes more time building a quests then playing it, that is all. It does not say "game over", it does not roll the credits on the screen, the way movies end. It is just you, player, in a state of reflection:"ok, what next?" and there comes no real answer ... till perhaps next patch.

    Immersion is a word which should get a price of most misused, misunderstood word on MMO forums. It is not only a question of semantics, but of knowing what you are talking about. Nobody is talking about whacking a dead donkey. It is a horse ! Not a mule, not a pony, a horse ! And while immersion is possible in a game it is a quite a different state of mind then engrossment. Everybody will more or less play a game with intent, depending on the strength of the gameplay. Immersion is on a higher, deeper level. It asks time, and unremittent personal commitment. With immersion the actor becomes one with his avatar and comes to accept its role in RL.

    Another matter is the "themepark" word. We use this word as the the oposit of the sandbox game. But really, are we all talking about the same thing here ? Judging on "Personally, I like a blend of the two, but that’s neither here nor there", only few of us know where "here" is, let alone "there". What IS the difference between the two ideas ? Reading alot of replies and reviews, I often wonder IF we all talk about the same conditions to be "here" and not "there".


     

    Engross/ definition:

    engross in the English dictionary and encyclopedia. ... To acquire most or all of (a commodity); monopolize (a market). ... immerse, plunge - cause to be immersed; "The professor plunged his students into the study …….

    Immerse/ definition:

    [?'m??s]. vb (tr). 1. (often foll by in) to plunge or dip into liquid. 2. ( often passive; often foll by in) to involve deeply; engross to immerse oneself in a ...

     

    Well up until dead horse, it seemed like you knew what you were talking about!!! 

  • OnomasOnomas Member UncommonPosts: 1,145

    If game companies would mix a little of everything together and make a decent mmo for a damn cahnge, we wouldnt have to fight amongst ourselves. And honestly, those 5 topcs you mentioned are needed to make a good mmo.

    Grind- is fun and allows you to explore and take your time, good for a casual gamer. Bad side- some game are to hardcore grindy and not good at all. There needs to be a balance, but the choice to quest or go kill stuff.

    Immersion- gotta have it. Need to be led into the game, have a meaning, and just need it in my opinion. Bad side- well cant realy think of one, and why anyone wanted want this.

    sandbox vs themepark- to many themeparks, and they are all the same. Need both aspect i think to be the next big mmo. Sandbox offers more to the players, but with the lack of creativity this generation (it feels like), many jump to themeparks, rush through the 50 levels of content, then sit around like idjits waiting on more instead of making their own.

    Player v Player- well to each their own here. Think there needs to be balance here. Open pvp that protects players to some extent, get rid of pvp gear and the boring grind for it. WE need fun pvp so even pve players get involved.

    End game woes- see with sandbox games you wont have that. See my points 2 spots up. Themeparks are fun, then you level fast or slow, then sit around waiting to do things. Only thing you can do is warzones, dailies, and raids......BORING. Its why sandbox games are more fun, allows the players to make their own content and often there is no end game. But many hate one or the other and im not forcing my views on anyone. I just feel its time to put good story telling and quests with the open world full of exploration and things that we can make content from like SWG did. We need both, either or makes different people bored, but mixing both could lead to great things. Think of Archeage :)



     

  • ropeniceropenice Member UncommonPosts: 588

    Originally posted by MacroHard

    I'm going to keep preaching about "actual" end-game content until developers/publishers finally get their heads out of their asses and create meaningful end games... gear runs and PvP that changes nothing are not worthy content imo yet that is still all that is being offered.

    Here is a decent example of meaningful end-game content:




    1. Guilds pool resources and find an ideal location in the world to buckle down and build the Town Hall (placement/construction done by Guild Architect.  Other structures can then be built to enhance the guild and its members.



    2. Guilds must defend their towns and must have a good reason to even build them in the first place (economic and social incentives among others..).



    3. Through object permanance, guilds can raid enemy towns and form factions with both NPC towns and other player built towns.



    4. Servers initially populated with large NPC towns (or of varying sizes) and due to backstory, dynamic npc factions can be modified and influenced by players (player interaction++).



    5. An automated trading system of sorts based on the building of Market Places encourages NPCs to flock to player towns and can even be the basis for a "mini game" of sorts, such as caravans that travel from one Market Place of one city to another.  Caravans/convoys are raidable features that enemies can attack to try and disrupt faction economies (part of the guild incentives from point 2).



    6. Professions can be centered around increasing overall guild functionality.



    7. A World Progression System that advances the game's current story and decision trees that are directly/indirectly influenced by players as a whole on each server (to give the chance for each server to progress differently).





    Give players the tools to influence end game and create a game that caters to its player base for a change.. instead of the other way around.  Am I way off base?




     



    Either it would be too difficult with today's programming limits or not enough people want these things. I played UO, SWG and other sandboxes-i found them fun, but the majority of players/casuals don't want these things and devs what to make safe money. If the majority, and not the very vocal minority wanted sandboxes, or ffa pvp, or other time consuming or niche things in the games-devs would do it. Unfortunately, most want themepark, quick, easy games. Hopefully a dev can figure out a way to do both. Have a large, realistic world with exploring,crafting, building, pvp with purpose etc-with quests and stories, and other things for casuals with limited time or inclination to grind skills, etc. Maybe one day.

  • OnomasOnomas Member UncommonPosts: 1,145

    Originally posted by ropenice



    Either it would be too difficult with today's programming limits or not enough people want these things. I played UO, SWG and other sandboxes-i found them fun, but the majority of players/casuals don't want these things and devs what to make safe money.

    See i dont understand that, casual gamers arent hardcore gamers. They play here and there when they have time. Enjoy quick enjoyment. This is why i dont understand why everyone keeps saying sandbox and casual gamers dont go with each other. In a sandbox you can dabble here and there, go do this or that, take your time, the casual way. Sandbox is ideal for casual gamers.

    Themepark games you are led along a path being told what to do and when to do it, i dont find that very casual.

  • carebear77carebear77 Member Posts: 86

    very well said !!! all those are brilliant ideas @ MacroHard !!!

  • FindarielFindariel Member UncommonPosts: 218

    I mostly agree with the article.

    In the end, the question is: how do you keep a game interesting for a lot of people.

    * Local marketplaces. It will keep the traders among us happy. Of course, the consequence is that you can't send stuff around the world by mail (perhaps only within regions) and that personal inventory will have to be limited. Moving stuff to PvP areas may be risky but more profitable (like in EVE). Another positive consequence will be that the world will seem bigger. Perhaps a developer could introduce pack mules, like dungeon siege had, I loved it!! :D

    * Meaningful PvP. And not for the sake of gear grind. Perhaps big organized guilds can occupy outposts and hold territory, like in DAOC. Perhaps a monthly arena style PvP battle to contest for towns and outposts, where the further you get into enemy territory the more NPC bonus the defending team gets. Or the GW style, where the winning faction has access to some extra content. Trophies for your guild hall. The possibilities are endless.

    * Casual vs hardcore. Of course there should be fun things to do for both groups. A lot of casual players give up when they have to grind for months to get good enough gear (like in WAR) to be able to compete in high-end PvE or PvP. Hardcore players give up when everything is too easy (like in WoW). Personally I like the guildwars style, where there's no gear grind but personal skill, team setups and teamwork make a lot of difference.

    * PvE and PvP areas. If you like it, do it and if you don't like it, don't do it. Almost two games or PvP and PvE servers in one. With 3 factions like DAOC you can even have some pretty good world PvP and hold outposts. While the people who don't have time or want arena style PvP still have a lot of alternatives.

    * Uniqueness and customization. What I think is very disppointing in many (especially western) games is that characters and gear look very stale and hardly have options to get a character with the look, feel and style that you fancy. I know some people couldn't care less about looks and all about stats but if you look at guildwars 1 you'd see that vanity items (or even statless town clothes!) are an incentive to play for a lot of people. That they disconnected stats from looks was a great idea, that way everyone could look how he/she wanted without sacrificing ability. Looking like every other player is a great let down, immersion-wise.

    * Hard and very hard content. I always envisaged that people would defeat bosses that would open new content, even without gear grind but by mere player skill and inventiveness. Only characters that come through stage 1 will be able to access stage 2 and so on. The reward not being better gear but vanity stuff, titles, unique pets and mounts, whatever. It should be primarily about the challenge, not the rewards.

    * Social stuff and interaction. Make it easy for people to play together. Things like guild halls, player housing, easy travel to mission or PvP hubs, have taverns and inns, a lot of fun emotes and things (like the 30 different dances in Anarchy Online). Make it possible to run an inn and customize it, like player housing and guild halls, for a lot of people it's very immersive.

    ... to name just a few things ..

  • MacroHardMacroHard Member Posts: 104

    Originally posted by carebear77

    very well said !!! all those are brilliant ideas @ MacroHard !!!




     

    thanks /hugs

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135

    Originally posted by booskA

    These five topics are the most important aspects of an MMO to people that already fans of the genre. That is like saying representation, abstraction, form and color are dead horses in the art world. It is actually the opposite of what you imply by this list.

    ^ This

  • GeeTeeEffOhGeeTeeEffOh Member Posts: 731

    I think the whole concept of "Endgame" is an Oxymoron. I have to imagine it's addition to the MMO was to give those who had done it all something more to do, But looking back, I think that the original concept from an MMO was all about journey with no clear destination. 

    Eventually you would reach a point where developing your character would reach  alimit, but this was not because of the game's content.

    Somewhere along the line, the entire point of the MMO shifted from the journey to focus on the destination.

    Thanks to WoW, the idea of the MMO started to revolve around level caps, gear, spec and cast rotations.

    These have nothing to do with shaping a world. In fact. Wrath of the Lich King is a perfect example of what went wrong.

    The addition of the Deathknight Class in WoW starting at level 58 and releasing you directly into The Burning Crusade Expansion's content bypassing the entirety of the original game, proved that everything about WoW that was relevant was based fully off the current expansion and that Vanilla WoW was now obsolete.

     What a waste.

    Then with Cata, they spent all this time and effort revising Vanilla. But that content was still obsolete. WoW has become ONLY as good as it's Endgame.

    As far as innovation goes....It's not necessarily needed. There are plenty of games out there that still have great mechanics and content.

    What's needed is not another reskinned Theme Park. But research. You know that thing companies used to do when they wanted to develop a new product? They would actually try to find out what people wanted. Yes, that's what is needed.

    Anyway, you only have to look at the link on this site for games lists. Read the forums to see what people  liked and disliked about each game. Take the best from specific games, and use them, improve them. But use aspects, Don't just copy a whole game from start to finish and put your new IP twist on it.

    Ryzom- This game offers a tremendous flexibility in character development. This could be emulated and changed up a bit to reflect what the demand is, But who wouldn't love a classless game where your role and abilities are defined by where you put your XP points. So your toon levels as a caster. Somewhere you deceide you want to be melee. So you put down your staff, pick up a sword and start leveling melee skills. No caps, No limits, No respecs no losing learned abilities, Just go pick up and learn something new. Just what ever you wnat to put time into developing in your character's abilites. 

    SWG- General Concensus is that it had arguably one of the best crafting systems in an MMO

    Rappelz- Sure it's a P2W Korean Grinder full of Hacks and Cheats, but to date, I have yet to see a better pet system. 

    I actually had created a list from my experiences and list goes on, but I think you get the point.  Borrow certain things from games that had at least one thing that worked and comine them.

    It's not innovative, but We all have sat there at one time and thought "OK, if your took the combat system from XYZ-Online and combined it with the Pet System from ABC-Online and then mixed in the crafting from 123-Online, Now that would be a game I'd play"

  • MacroHardMacroHard Member Posts: 104

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

    I think the whole concept of "Endgame" is an Oxymoron. I have to imagine it's addition to the MMO was to give those who had done it all something more to do, But looking back, I think that the original concept from an MMO was all about journey with no clear destination. 

    Eventually you would reach a point where developing your character would reach  alimit, but this was not because of the game's content.

    Somewhere along the line, the entire point of the MMO shifted from the journey to focus on the destination.






     

    Not everyone wants to be forced to reroll characters just to continue playing a game they like.  End game content is exactly that: content for players who reach max level.  Reaching level cap doesn't necessarily means a journey ends at that point.. that's pretty silly.  The genre has been broken up into 2 parts: the journey to max level and what happens when you reach it.  Game is over at that point?  Not for most of us.  There is a high demand for end game content and you clearly fail to realize this.  If a character fails to be able to further itself at end game it IS because of content...

    Solid business models state: "It is less expensive to keep current customers than get new ones."  This in the MMO genre translates directly to: give players reasons to keep playing the game or risk losing them. 

  • FindarielFindariel Member UncommonPosts: 218

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

    What's needed is not another reskinned Theme Park. But research. You know that thing companies used to do when they wanted to develop a new product? They would actually try to find out what people wanted. Yes, that's what is needed.

    Anyway, you only have to look at the link on this site for games lists. Read the forums to see what people  liked and disliked about each game. Take the best from specific games, and use them, improve them. But use aspects, Don't just copy a whole game from start to finish and put your new IP twist on it.

    I agree, sometimes I can't imagine why a game like for instance Rift would want to copy the entire set of WoW game mechanics when there's so many games that had better, more ingenous things.

    If I could make a new mmorpg with popular innovative parts of other games:


    • Very low level cap so most content stays interesting like GW

    • Stats and gear looks independent like GW

    • Barbershops like WoW

    • Real towns like Stormwind in WoW

    • Pack mules like the Dungeon Siege RPG

    • Swapping armour sets and weapons like in Diablo II

    • A regional economy like EVE

    • Editable minimap like GW

    • Player housing like DAOC

    • Level limit on dungeons like in DDO

    • Open world quests like WAR

    • 3 faction warfare like DAOC

    • Vanity items and gear like in GW

    .. and more.

    Why does it seem so hard to make a "best practice" mmorpg with proven concepts?

  • kantseemekantseeme Member Posts: 709

    Originally posted by Findariel

    Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh



    What's needed is not another reskinned Theme Park. But research. You know that thing companies used to do when they wanted to develop a new product? They would actually try to find out what people wanted. Yes, that's what is needed.

    Anyway, you only have to look at the link on this site for games lists. Read the forums to see what people  liked and disliked about each game. Take the best from specific games, and use them, improve them. But use aspects, Don't just copy a whole game from start to finish and put your new IP twist on it.

    I agree, sometimes I can't imagine why a game like for instance Rift would want to copy the entire set of WoW game mechanics when there's so many games that had better, more ingenous things.

    If I could make a new mmorpg with popular innovative parts of other games:


    • Very low level cap so most content stays interesting like GW

    • Stats and gear looks independent like GW

    • Barbershops like WoW

    • Real towns like Stormwind in WoW

    • Pack mules like the Dungeon Siege RPG

    • Swapping armour sets and weapons like in Diablo II

    • A regional economy like EVE

    • Editable minimap like GW

    • Player housing like DAOC

    • Level limit on dungeons like in DDO

    • Open world quests like WAR

    • 3 faction warfare like DAOC

    • Vanity items and gear like in GW

    .. and more.

    Why does it seem so hard to make a "best practice" mmorpg with proven concepts?

    The reason is Money. "For the love of the game" doesent exsist anymore. Just like with sports... Remember how players Loved to play the game. Now they just love the paycheck. Its why were seeing massive lock outs every 2 years. They dont care what city they play for and they dont care about teamwork. They care only about the amount of money they can earn in a year. Same goes for game cos. Theyre goin to continue to pump out this drivil untill they bleed the industry dry. Untill someone comes along with a new plan and changes the status quo then well be stuck in this limbo MMO hell.

  • DaddyDarkDaddyDark Member Posts: 138

    Originally posted by ropenice



    Originally posted by DaddyDark

    The best IMMERSION I had in MMO was in the DC Universe online. You don't have to constantly think about your 20 abilities and cooldowns and you don't have to calculate the dps based on 15 stats... no lenghty running, no quest-turning... you just play naturally ... oh - good times... ! -) But they screwed up the endgame... -((( 



    Hmmm...doesn't sound immersive.

    It does. Most older MMOs would have you carefully plan your quest and resource runs, so that you won't have to spend extra 30 minutes just running between obectives + constantly have to think about your gear and abilities. In DCUO you have like 5 active abilities + combos + fast and convenient traveling rigth from the start (it takes only about 5 to 10 minutes to get to any place in the world, which makes world PvP a real fun too) - so you don't have to think about effectiveness of your runs and memorising your rotations - you just play the game naturally, which gives you more time to focus on the surrounding world and quest-lines, which are very funny if you ever liked comics... -)

  • oakfootoakfoot Member UncommonPosts: 15

    1. To bittch or not to bittch, that is the question. But is it really bittching? If you look at most game forums, people generally complain about the problems IE Bugs.

    2. In every game I'e even been in since EQ1, there have been the arguers and the fixers and the crafters who all complain about something and if your a game player, after reading what the complaints are, most of them pan out to be very valid.

    3. Regardless of the game, the grind is ever present and will never not be there no matter what amount of so called content they claim to have added, in fact it's a small amount of people that even give a sh*t about the content. Unless it's based on a very famous book like the JRR Tolkein books.

    4. The hard core gamers want to see it all run well and see a more balenced game for all factions, while they find the bugs so they can exploit the game to the advantage of there guild and anyone they let in on it. Mostly so they can get to the Lv cap fast and get the most uber gear.

    5. If you look at any new game that has sucked the life out of another game it will only do it for about a year when low and behold they'll fall into the same machine all the others have and will fall into. That being changing everything they sold to you that was pretty and shiny and reselling you a load of BS. Thats when it all become completely relevent.

    6. I've played at least five games that were highly antisapaited at there time in space and each one started out as a shiny new red fire engine and eventually became a large stinky turd on wheels, but because we got to ride it till it turned that way, we were used to the smell and had a giant roll of toilet paper invested in it that we didn't mind riding it till the next big red shiny fire engine came out of the factory.

    7. Regardless of the game and gamers, the fans/players/hard core players will always bittch.

  • GoresonGoreson Member Posts: 122

    Hey, I don't think 'grind' is a dead horse!

    Rather I think it is that white horse in armor that is just waiting for a knight to get on!

    Okay, really, it's like this: people complain that in game [insert name] there is no 'endgame' that they can have fun with for weeks and months and years...

    D'oh... it's the ENDgame... the end of the game... this is where the game ends!

    So maybe, the fun should actually be in the pre-endgame content of the game? Maybe?

    The thing is that this 'instant gratification' generation of MMO gamers just want to be get to what they consider the real reason to play MMOs: PvP...

    Serious question: 2 characters with 50 HP and weapons doing 1-6 HP damage fighting each other, can't that be as much fun as 2 characters with 10,000 HP using weapons that do 500 - 1000 HP of damage?

    If your answer is yes, well, look at that pre-endgame PvP! And even better: you still have to further devellop your character (i.e. grind!) thru some quest(s) here and mission(s) there each day to see your character slowly progress to the next level...

    Yes, for those who need a get a new level every other day, the grind is horror... but those of us who do understand that as long as you are having fun doing so grind IS great, we want MORE grind in games! 

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