Amusing how you just reinforced what I said, thanks.
I didn't actually.
What I experienced in WoW was that people who thought raiding was "retarded, dumb, boring, or repetitious" where people speaking about instances they had beaten, moved to FARM status.
Not really a relevant benchmark for judging Raiding, because once an instance is on farm it's pretty much sidelined as a challenge, for the most part.
Call me old fashioned but I like the Trinity. The thing is feel the trinity should be improved.
The next evolution of the trinity is the Fab Five: Heals, Tank, DPS, Bard, Chanter
Don't even try to do the content if you don't have all five. Now that is the way games should be.
The problem with this is: Tank=1 class, Healer= 1 class, DPS=every other class, Bard= 1 class, Chanter= 1 class. Basially you're taking a problem that plagues the trinity system (lack of tanks & heals) and adding another 2 classes that are mandatory and are in short supply but high demand.
Do you not think theres a problem when every single trinity system MMO has the Group looking for tank and gtg, or group looking for healer and gtg. littering the LFG chats?
Theres a reason why tanks and healers are the lest played class roles in MMO's and its not because they arent as fun or as rewarding as DPS, its because the vast majority of your MMO role is in combat, and combat entails monsters dieing, of which tanks and healers do a crappy job at. Until an MMO is developed that doesnt offer killing mobs as the sole source of leveling, or gaining loot then the 2 sides of the trinity that are the worst at it will forever be the least played class. Now its fine if you love tanking or healing but the truth of the matter is that Tanks and Healers arealways the least played roles in a MMO and that is a fact.
GW2 will change this, now I can and will most defently try to do content with a non traditional setup to test this theory and as long as ANet allows all classes to achieve similar DPS then this shouldnt be a problem and I'm all for one excited about this new gameplay option and cant wait to test it out. Just imagine a group doing a dungeon comprised of all warriors or all rangers, sounds exciting.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
In stripping the Holy Trinity out of an MMO, you will soon discover you've also stripped a driving factor for two key components:
1) Diversity - Calling each class something i different, and giving each class different skills that perform roughly the same function (with differnet graphics) - results in a relatively flat playing field, and thus limits the diversity within the game. Whereas the concept of not pigeon holing individuals into a playstyle sounds good in theory - it will result in a higher player churn over a short period of time due to the overall lack of a sense of individualism.. which humans crave more than almost anything in this world.
2) Replayability - As noted above, the lack of a sense of individuality will result in a higher churn over a shorter period of time. Also, whe you flatline the class system and provide everyone with the ability to perform the same roles in one class.. you limit the replayability. If I'm playing a character that can "Tank/Dps/Heal/CC with lightning graphics and summersaults" will my motivation to play a character than can "Tank/DPS/Heal/CC with fire graphics and backflips" be that great? No. In flattening class diversity, you limit replayability and the result is a higher churn over a shorter period of time...
Games like SWTOR and GW2 will be succesfull..... however, they will not be long term successes because they are limiting two major pieces of MMO's which differentiate them from single player or FPS multiplayer games - Diversity and Replayability.
I can't help have excitement for GW2's lack of the holy trinity and have a lot of hope that it works. To desire to play a game, I have to connect to the character and one of the most important aspects of that for me is my class. I don't look to the leather wearing, dagger loving sneaky classes of games because I have no desire to help out my team and do something other than stabby stabby. In the end it is because I miss things like flashlight tag in the dark woods around my house from my childhood summers and leather and daggers just rock IMO!
I'm bored of dps rotations and sick to death of being just another replaceable dps smuck. I have had many positive experiences within the trinity paradigm from joining a good guild and that has been great. There is always the option to reroll to a more desirable class as well, which works for many many people. However as someone who would rather cling to their favorite class archetype and bite their tongue about not liking the static role of the class I'm excited to see another option available in GW2.
I can't wait to see the full class skills in GW2 and how cross profession combos will give players the ability to broaden what they can bring to a fight even beyond what is on their skill bar. I know I am going to be giddy the first time I see a ranger lay down their AoE heal at a massive dynamic event and I whip out two pistols, pick a target surrounded by allies, fire through the ranger's healing field, and spread the heal to a whole new cluster of allies that normally wouldn't have benefited from it. Healing bullets coming at ya! The idea of being able to use my short bow simply to port myself around a large event rezzing allies and strengthening our ranks just as easily as using it for actually hitting enemies makes this burned out dps smuck smile.
I enjoy the trinity in a game that's done well. IMO if people dislike the trinity it's usually the failure of the devs making the classes actually interesting, and not the fault of the trinity style gameplay.
In stripping the Holy Trinity out of an MMO, you will soon discover you've also stripped a driving factor for two key components:
1) Diversity - Calling each class something i different, and giving each class different skills that perform roughly the same function (with differnet graphics) - results in a relatively flat playing field, and thus limits the diversity within the game. Whereas the concept of not pigeon holing individuals into a playstyle sounds good in theory - it will result in a higher player churn over a short period of time due to the overall lack of a sense of individualism.. which humans crave more than almost anything in this world.
2) Replayability - As noted above, the lack of a sense of individuality will result in a higher churn over a shorter period of time. Also, whe you flatline the class system and provide everyone with the ability to perform the same roles in one class.. you limit the replayability. If I'm playing a character that can "Tank/Dps/Heal/CC with lightning graphics and summersaults" will my motivation to play a character than can "Tank/DPS/Heal/CC with fire graphics and backflips" be that great? No. In flattening class diversity, you limit replayability and the result is a higher churn over a shorter period of time...
Games like SWTOR and GW2 will be succesfull..... however, they will not be long term successes because they are limiting two major pieces of MMO's which differentiate them from single player or FPS multiplayer games - Diversity and Replayability.
You fail to cement how the holy trinity brings diversity. There are as many numerous playstlyes of a class in GW2 as in any holy trinity. GW2 has support and control being major factors in mechanics, not to mention the numberous weapons that each class has which is a play style of the class. If anything GW2 will have a hell of a lot more diversity as in typical MMOs your are pigeonholed with abilities, WoW and SWTOR you end up in a cookie cutter build.
You think eveyone will be DPS DPS DPS in GW2 which is far from the truth. The amount of different skills alone will make relayability there. While people tend to only lvl one toon of that class the variations of style are there. Go play GW to it's fullest and you'll see as there are many different builds.
If your a FPS gamer why the hell are you even playing SWTOR or GW2?
the holy trinity relies on two classes, the priest and the tank. in guild wars 2 everyone has to step up to the plate and not rely on two classes to get them through an encounter.
No, it used to be great. Just playing devil's advocate so you can say "Look at me, I'm different" is a lost cause.
I am not sure it ever was great as such.
What is great is players working together. If they do it by having distinct roles, by using reaistic tactics or by combine eachothers powers does not really matter as long as they work together.
The trinity is one way to make the players work together. It do work but saying it is better than the rest just isn't true.
I frankly like a lot GW2s combo skills where one players skill merge with another players to create something more powerful. That rewards co operation without having the retarded mob AI trinity games have.
Because sure, you can have a Diablo like system where you don´t have to cooperate at all and just drink pots for heal but that do take away the fun of multiplayer games. We doneed to rward people that works together but the trinity is far too rigid to be good. The tank tanks, the cleric heals the tank andthe DPS just spamms attacks. You don't really need to use your brain for that.
Good combat mechanics should force you to think fast as well as work together. Strategy does reallynot matter as much in MMOs as it should in a none twitched based game.
There seems to be a little confusion regarding tanking in GW2.
No, you will not be able to tank. Period. Even a sword and board warrior in heavy armor will not be able to stand there and take the damage. This is by design. The days of being a meat-shield and eating all the damage for everyone else are over (regarding GW2). Instead, the idea is to help in controlling the enemies to mitigate and prevent damage from happening at all. The warrior, for example, will be knocking the enemies down, crippling them, weakening them, all things to keep them from applying damage to the party. You know what? So will the elementalist. So will the thief, the guardian, the ranger, the engineer and the necromancer. Every profession will have skills that minimize the enemies ability to harm the party. They'll also have skills to do damage to the enemy. They'll also have skills that not only damage but help control the enemy, and some that combine a variety of these things while also buffing nearby allies, either with beneficial effects or splash healing.
So no, you won't find yourself falling into any of the archaic trinity roles... you can't. The game won't allow it. You cannot set up your skill bar and weapons sets to specifically be any one thing. Instead, and this will be painful to many, you'll have to settle for watching the fight, seeing what the enemy is doing (as well as your allies) and reacting to the situation. I know, I know... it sounds horrible, this whole "independent" thinking thing, the lack of specific DPS or tanking rotations, the absense of the "watch the pretty red bars go down" paradigm... but I think we'll adapt fine.
Exactly right.
There is another side to GW2's combat that I haven't seen much discussion about (detailed here) which further encourages teamwork past the "simple" tactics that you mentioned. Basically, different players can use skills in concert to create additional effects and become, overall, more effective as a team.
So...I don't want to see any claims that GW2 doesn't require teamwork, or teamwork isn't really something that matters, or whatever.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
Comments
I didn't actually.
What I experienced in WoW was that people who thought raiding was "retarded, dumb, boring, or repetitious" where people speaking about instances they had beaten, moved to FARM status.
Not really a relevant benchmark for judging Raiding, because once an instance is on farm it's pretty much sidelined as a challenge, for the most part.
Wherever you go, there you are.
The problem with this is: Tank=1 class, Healer= 1 class, DPS=every other class, Bard= 1 class, Chanter= 1 class. Basially you're taking a problem that plagues the trinity system (lack of tanks & heals) and adding another 2 classes that are mandatory and are in short supply but high demand.
Do you not think theres a problem when every single trinity system MMO has the Group looking for tank and gtg, or group looking for healer and gtg. littering the LFG chats?
Theres a reason why tanks and healers are the lest played class roles in MMO's and its not because they arent as fun or as rewarding as DPS, its because the vast majority of your MMO role is in combat, and combat entails monsters dieing, of which tanks and healers do a crappy job at. Until an MMO is developed that doesnt offer killing mobs as the sole source of leveling, or gaining loot then the 2 sides of the trinity that are the worst at it will forever be the least played class. Now its fine if you love tanking or healing but the truth of the matter is that Tanks and Healers arealways the least played roles in a MMO and that is a fact.
GW2 will change this, now I can and will most defently try to do content with a non traditional setup to test this theory and as long as ANet allows all classes to achieve similar DPS then this shouldnt be a problem and I'm all for one excited about this new gameplay option and cant wait to test it out. Just imagine a group doing a dungeon comprised of all warriors or all rangers, sounds exciting.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
In stripping the Holy Trinity out of an MMO, you will soon discover you've also stripped a driving factor for two key components:
1) Diversity - Calling each class something i different, and giving each class different skills that perform roughly the same function (with differnet graphics) - results in a relatively flat playing field, and thus limits the diversity within the game. Whereas the concept of not pigeon holing individuals into a playstyle sounds good in theory - it will result in a higher player churn over a short period of time due to the overall lack of a sense of individualism.. which humans crave more than almost anything in this world.
2) Replayability - As noted above, the lack of a sense of individuality will result in a higher churn over a shorter period of time. Also, whe you flatline the class system and provide everyone with the ability to perform the same roles in one class.. you limit the replayability. If I'm playing a character that can "Tank/Dps/Heal/CC with lightning graphics and summersaults" will my motivation to play a character than can "Tank/DPS/Heal/CC with fire graphics and backflips" be that great? No. In flattening class diversity, you limit replayability and the result is a higher churn over a shorter period of time...
Games like SWTOR and GW2 will be succesfull..... however, they will not be long term successes because they are limiting two major pieces of MMO's which differentiate them from single player or FPS multiplayer games - Diversity and Replayability.
I can't help have excitement for GW2's lack of the holy trinity and have a lot of hope that it works. To desire to play a game, I have to connect to the character and one of the most important aspects of that for me is my class. I don't look to the leather wearing, dagger loving sneaky classes of games because I have no desire to help out my team and do something other than stabby stabby. In the end it is because I miss things like flashlight tag in the dark woods around my house from my childhood summers and leather and daggers just rock IMO!
I'm bored of dps rotations and sick to death of being just another replaceable dps smuck. I have had many positive experiences within the trinity paradigm from joining a good guild and that has been great. There is always the option to reroll to a more desirable class as well, which works for many many people. However as someone who would rather cling to their favorite class archetype and bite their tongue about not liking the static role of the class I'm excited to see another option available in GW2.
I can't wait to see the full class skills in GW2 and how cross profession combos will give players the ability to broaden what they can bring to a fight even beyond what is on their skill bar. I know I am going to be giddy the first time I see a ranger lay down their AoE heal at a massive dynamic event and I whip out two pistols, pick a target surrounded by allies, fire through the ranger's healing field, and spread the heal to a whole new cluster of allies that normally wouldn't have benefited from it. Healing bullets coming at ya! The idea of being able to use my short bow simply to port myself around a large event rezzing allies and strengthening our ranks just as easily as using it for actually hitting enemies makes this burned out dps smuck smile.
I enjoy the trinity in a game that's done well. IMO if people dislike the trinity it's usually the failure of the devs making the classes actually interesting, and not the fault of the trinity style gameplay.
You fail to cement how the holy trinity brings diversity. There are as many numerous playstlyes of a class in GW2 as in any holy trinity. GW2 has support and control being major factors in mechanics, not to mention the numberous weapons that each class has which is a play style of the class. If anything GW2 will have a hell of a lot more diversity as in typical MMOs your are pigeonholed with abilities, WoW and SWTOR you end up in a cookie cutter build.
You think eveyone will be DPS DPS DPS in GW2 which is far from the truth. The amount of different skills alone will make relayability there. While people tend to only lvl one toon of that class the variations of style are there. Go play GW to it's fullest and you'll see as there are many different builds.
If your a FPS gamer why the hell are you even playing SWTOR or GW2?
the holy trinity relies on two classes, the priest and the tank. in guild wars 2 everyone has to step up to the plate and not rely on two classes to get them through an encounter.
Why is there so much shit about a game that no one has even played in this thread? Stop talking about GW2 when it's not even out.
"The Holy Trinity is great".
No, it used to be great. Just playing devil's advocate so you can say "Look at me, I'm different" is a lost cause.
I am not sure it ever was great as such.
What is great is players working together. If they do it by having distinct roles, by using reaistic tactics or by combine eachothers powers does not really matter as long as they work together.
The trinity is one way to make the players work together. It do work but saying it is better than the rest just isn't true.
I frankly like a lot GW2s combo skills where one players skill merge with another players to create something more powerful. That rewards co operation without having the retarded mob AI trinity games have.
Because sure, you can have a Diablo like system where you don´t have to cooperate at all and just drink pots for heal but that do take away the fun of multiplayer games. We doneed to rward people that works together but the trinity is far too rigid to be good. The tank tanks, the cleric heals the tank andthe DPS just spamms attacks. You don't really need to use your brain for that.
Good combat mechanics should force you to think fast as well as work together. Strategy does reallynot matter as much in MMOs as it should in a none twitched based game.
Exactly right.
There is another side to GW2's combat that I haven't seen much discussion about (detailed here) which further encourages teamwork past the "simple" tactics that you mentioned. Basically, different players can use skills in concert to create additional effects and become, overall, more effective as a team.
So...I don't want to see any claims that GW2 doesn't require teamwork, or teamwork isn't really something that matters, or whatever.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.