If they don't have to be like us, why do they have to have nerfs to get to our position in HM Raiding?
Because they want to and they pay the same amount for the game? I don't know, man. How is it good for the game to have 1% of players parading around for months and months and a 99% sitting around with nothing to do because they're sick and tired of wiping?
Your solution is "Well then they should get better or quit." and that's just not reasonable for a video game comprised of millions of people looking to just have some fun. It's still a computer game.
unfortunately this is exactly what Blizzard did do, I quite liked WOW, then around 6-12 months or so before BC, they hired all these hardcore raid guys from EQ (players mainly) and we got AQ, NAX etc.. which is when I rapidly dropped thegame and went back to COH
unfortunately this is exactly what Blizzard did do, I quite liked WOW, then around 6-12 months or so before BC, they hired all these hardcore raid guys from EQ (players mainly) and we got AQ, NAX etc.. which is when I rapidly dropped thegame and went back to COH
I think the extremely low take-up of the original Nax raid had a profound effect on Blizzard and by it's influence the entire MMO genre. It caused to Blizz to re-evaluate what they trying to achieve with raid dungeons altogether.
BC raid content was systematically nerfed throughout it's lifespan so it could be experienced by more players once the hardcore players were done.
WotLK saw the introduction of very easy raid content right from the outset.
No I don't believe you understand the OP's point. To me, it seem like the OP was making a counterclaim on the major argument we see here on this forum, that "WoW is Easy!!"
yet in the OP post, blizzard stated that most people aren't beating the game as if it was easy.
so where are all these claims that WoW is easy coming from on these forums?
Now this is only my suspicion, but I believe it is coming from people not even sub'ed to WoW or haven't accomplished the stated end game raids of any dificulty. I understand there is a segment of society that needs to lord what few accomplishments it has over the rest of us. Now that I wrote it out, I supose they might show up here to defend their claim to fame. Lets suppose there are ~4 Million US players of WoW. If 1% have accomplished the end-game raids on heroic that would be ~40,000 players. Or enough people to fill 20 Servers. If 1% of that came to the web site to defend their right to be the only players to accomplish end game in WoW, that would take only 400 players or 0.01% of all the US players.
Blizz should just ignore the 3,960,000 other players and Not tweek end-game dificulty. Those 3,960,000 paying customers should just leave WoW and cancel their subs and start playing Wizard 101 or some other game matching their skill and ability. And leave those 40,000 entitled customer to their fun.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
so where are all these claims that WoW is easy coming from on these forums?
Well, probably from Wrath. Things have changed a bit.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
No I don't believe you understand the OP's point. To me, it seem like the OP was making a counterclaim on the major argument we see here on this forum, that "WoW is Easy!!"
yet in the OP post, blizzard stated that most people aren't beating the game as if it was easy.
so where are all these claims that WoW is easy coming from on these forums?
Now this is only my suspicion, but I believe it is coming from people not even sub'ed to WoW or haven't accomplished the stated end game raids of any dificulty. I understand there is a segment of society that needs to lord what few accomplishments it has over the rest of us. Now that I wrote it out, I supose they might show up here to defend their claim to fame. Lets suppose there are ~4 Million US players of WoW. If 1% have accomplished the end-game raids on heroic that would be ~40,000 players. Or enough people to fill 20 Servers. If 1% of that came to the web site to defend their right to be the only players to accomplish end game in WoW, that would take only 400 players or 0.01% of all the US players.
Blizz should just ignore the 3,960,000 other players and Not tweek end-game dificulty. Those 3,960,000 paying customers should just leave WoW and cancel their subs and start playing Wizard 101 or some other game matching their skill and ability. And leave those 40,000 entitled customer to their fun.
Just as hardcore raiders overstate their importance, raider wannabes do too, this post somehow assumes that all the 4m US players are trying to raid and that most of them are just not "hardcore" enough to pull it off, that the statement i read recently "i have to raid top content, only that makes any sense, if i cant, i am cheated out of my money" is somehow something all the 4m players think...
Not that i have something about tweaking endgame, just pointing out, that making raids easyer is not the silver bullet of game design, it will not miraculously fix everything, if it would , after wotlk, wow would have probably had atleast 16million players (which does not mean i am not aware of the 2million drop rumor).
Originally posted by Konfess Lets suppose there are ~4 Million US players of WoW. If 1% have accomplished the end-game raids on heroic that would be ~40,000 players. Or enough people to fill 20 Servers.
It's nothing like that. 72 guilds have completed Dragon Soul hardmode, so maybe 1,000-1,500 players (mix of 10-man and 25-man guilds).
Oh, and that's worldwide. So 1,000 out of 10 million, 0.01%.
Isn't this the whole reason they have normal and hard modes for the raids? If the normal modes are too difficult then that's one thing but hard modes are supposed to be... hard, right?
WoW is easier because of the time it takes to get epics is how I always looked at it.
Before if you wanted to get PvP epics, you had to do it a lot because it was same-server BG, and the old honor system of ranks, not points.
Before, if you wanted to get raid gear, you NEEDED to get Fire Resist items, as MC had a lot of mobs with fire attacks and that was the first raid for many. You also NEEDED to coordinate 40 people into some kind of strategy (more than just tank n spank most of the time) and the majority of the raid had to be good (with 40 people there was usually 3-5 stragglers in most guilds, obviously not the elite ones)
Now, you can be freshly arrived at 85, join a LFR queue, and get geared in a day
Yeah, I'd say it's gotten easier
for perspective, it took me 2 weeks of raiding to get my first epic way back when, and I got lucky because the other warrior already had the sword
I completely agree with your post OP. I think recently MMO Champion released statistics showing that less then 10% of the playerbase actually killed the newer version of Ragnoros when it was current, kinda proving the point.
From personal experience I've seen this in action. Back in BC I was in a guild that basically hit a wall in tier 5 content and a ton of people decided it wasn't worth the time and effort to bother anymore and quit. I was frustrated as my background was in vanillia raiding but it took me a while to realise that it just wasn't fun for them anymore. If it's not fun why bother? That was why they changed the philosophy raidingwise in Wrath. It may not suit me, but theres far more people it will suit so fair enough.
Fact of the matter is WoW has been hated for years on this forums, it has had litle impact on it's popularity because those haters are the minority. So while your right don't expect anyone here to conceed the point.
Originally posted by 77lolmac77 WoW is easier because of the time it takes to get epics is how I always looked at it. Before if you wanted to get PvP epics, you had to do it a lot because it was same-server BG, and the old honor system of ranks, not points. Before, if you wanted to get raid gear, you NEEDED to get Fire Resist items, as MC had a lot of mobs with fire attacks and that was the first raid for many. You also NEEDED to coordinate 40 people into some kind of strategy (more than just tank n spank most of the time) and the majority of the raid had to be good (with 40 people there was usually 3-5 stragglers in most guilds, obviously not the elite ones) Now, you can be freshly arrived at 85, join a LFR queue, and get geared in a day Yeah, I'd say it's gotten easier
for perspective, it took me 2 weeks of raiding to get my first epic way back when, and I got lucky because the other warrior already had the sword
Getting your first epic doesn't mean you've killed the final raid boss. It also doesn't mean you've gotten your first (or last) piece of the top tier of raid gear. Raids are setup such that if you don't have the lower tier of epics quickly, you'll never get past the content. You need that gear quickly just to progress.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Lets suppose there are ~4 Million US players of WoW. If 1% have accomplished the end-game raids on heroic that would be ~40,000 players. Or enough people to fill 20 Servers.
It's nothing like that. 72 guilds have completed Dragon Soul hardmode, so maybe 1,000-1,500 players (mix of 10-man and 25-man guilds).
Oh, and that's worldwide. So 1,000 out of 10 million, 0.01%.
Yeh. Hard mode *is* hard.
I was in a raiding guild and i did (no longer) some hard mode raiding back in WOTLK. It is NOT easy (with appropriate level gear, of course, now you can over-gear WOTLK encounters). We wiped for hours to practice certain manuevers. You need laser precision to get it done.
I no longer raid hard mode just because it is not fun to have to practice so long just to down one boss. Plus, i do not have the time.
WoW is easier because of the time it takes to get epics is how I always looked at it.
Before if you wanted to get PvP epics, you had to do it a lot because it was same-server BG, and the old honor system of ranks, not points.
Before, if you wanted to get raid gear, you NEEDED to get Fire Resist items, as MC had a lot of mobs with fire attacks and that was the first raid for many. You also NEEDED to coordinate 40 people into some kind of strategy (more than just tank n spank most of the time) and the majority of the raid had to be good (with 40 people there was usually 3-5 stragglers in most guilds, obviously not the elite ones)
Now, you can be freshly arrived at 85, join a LFR queue, and get geared in a day
Yeah, I'd say it's gotten easier
for perspective, it took me 2 weeks of raiding to get my first epic way back when, and I got lucky because the other warrior already had the sword
I bet you are not playing WOW anymore because saying such things in game will get laughed at.
1) epics means NOTHING in wow. People use item level and gear score. If you only have entry level epics, you willl be at item level 359 (assuming every slot) and you won't be allowed even to do LFR (neednig gear level 372).
2) Hahahah ... you can join a LFR queue in a day? You know that you need gear level 372 to do LFR right? Before that, you need gear level 353 to do the twilight dungeons.
I will bet $10 that YOU cannot get LFR gear a day after you reach 85.
As for the only 35% have completed such and such a raid, how many have actually tried? A lot of people simply don't like raiding or don't have the time to spare.
Compare the 35% to the 4% number. OBVIOUSLY a lot more people than 4% want to get into the dragon soul raids. Otherwise there won't be the 35% who completed the LFR portion of it.
4% is obviously too difficult. That is why they are nerfing the normal mode. It will never be as easy as the LFR but there is no harm to be a little more assesssible.
Blizzard's approach to difficulty has always been a bit hit and miss.
1. There should always be a challenge available to the Top 5% of players, and if that's not Hard Modes and Heroics then they need to implement Legendary Mode.
2. Along the same lines, Blizzard (and every MMORPG except CoX) is to blame for not implementing a more granular form of difficulty options where players can always reliably get the difficulty they want (and be rewarded accordingly.) This is particularly important for leveling content.
Apart from that, they're clearly looking at the numbers and how players actually play the game -- which is certainly way better than "designer knows best" and unapologetically shunning huge sections of their playerbase for no good reason.
Designing without metrics is a bit like parallel parking with your eyes closed. Doing it "by feel" is incredibly destructive, so why not open your eyes and do it the right way?
But despite looking at metrics, the fact that huge chunks of their gameplay (like leveling) are nevertheless shunning users just like those unsuccessful games, is still a big hole in the way Blizzard offers challenge.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
As for the only 35% have completed such and such a raid, how many have actually tried? A lot of people simply don't like raiding or don't have the time to spare.
Compare the 35% to the 4% number. OBVIOUSLY a lot more people than 4% want to get into the dragon soul raids. Otherwise there won't be the 35% who completed the LFR portion of it.
4% is obviously too difficult. That is why they are nerfing the normal mode. It will never be as easy as the LFR but there is no harm to be a little more assesssible.
The only thing what is obvious is that 35% people tryed to complete the "pinnacle raid" via lfr and they succeeded.
It does not show us how many of those planned to get into the raid even without the lfr, it does not show us how many people just wanted to see the "pinnacle raid", it does not show us how many people were there just for the rewards, it does not show us how many people just wanted to test out the lfr, and so on.
I mean, what would you do, if someone actually argued, that just because only 35% of people visited a single raid, it is OBVIOUS that raiding is a failure, because not even the majority of people does it, and we should phase it out altogether?
As for the only 35% have completed such and such a raid, how many have actually tried? A lot of people simply don't like raiding or don't have the time to spare.
Compare the 35% to the 4% number. OBVIOUSLY a lot more people than 4% want to get into the dragon soul raids. Otherwise there won't be the 35% who completed the LFR portion of it.
4% is obviously too difficult. That is why they are nerfing the normal mode. It will never be as easy as the LFR but there is no harm to be a little more assesssible.
The only thing what is obvious is that 35% people tryed to complete the "pinnacle raid" via lfr and they succeeded.
It does not show us how many of those planned to get into the raid even without the lfr, it does not show us how many people just wanted to see the "pinnacle raid", it does not show us how many people were there just for the rewards, it does not show us how many people just wanted to test out the lfr, and so on.
I mean, what would you do, if someone actually argued, that just because only 35% of people visited a single raid, it is OBVIOUS that raiding is a failure, because not even the majority of people does it, and we should phase it out altogether?
Nariusseldon is saying that 4% completing the follow-on raid is a big step down from the 35% who completed the first raid, indicating that the 2nd raid is maybe too hard. It's a fair point I think assuming that these raids have been around long enough to draw a conclusion.
As for the only 35% have completed such and such a raid, how many have actually tried? A lot of people simply don't like raiding or don't have the time to spare.
Compare the 35% to the 4% number. OBVIOUSLY a lot more people than 4% want to get into the dragon soul raids. Otherwise there won't be the 35% who completed the LFR portion of it.
4% is obviously too difficult. That is why they are nerfing the normal mode. It will never be as easy as the LFR but there is no harm to be a little more assesssible.
The only thing what is obvious is that 35% people tryed to complete the "pinnacle raid" via lfr and they succeeded.
It does not show us how many of those planned to get into the raid even without the lfr, it does not show us how many people just wanted to see the "pinnacle raid", it does not show us how many people were there just for the rewards, it does not show us how many people just wanted to test out the lfr, and so on.
I mean, what would you do, if someone actually argued, that just because only 35% of people visited a single raid, it is OBVIOUS that raiding is a failure, because not even the majority of people does it, and we should phase it out altogether?
Nariusseldon is saying that 4% completing the follow-on raid is a big step down from the 35% who completed the first raid, indicating that the 2nd raid is maybe too hard. It's a fair point I think assuming that these raids have been around long enough to draw a conclusion.
Blizzard's approach to difficulty has always been a bit hit and miss.
1. There should always be a challenge available to the Top 5% of players, and if that's not Hard Modes and Heroics then they need to implement Legendary Mode.
2. Along the same lines, Blizzard (and every MMORPG except CoX) is to blame for not implementing a more granular form of difficulty options where players can always reliably get the difficulty they want (and be rewarded accordingly.) This is particularly important for leveling content.
Apart from that, they're clearly looking at the numbers and how players actually play the game -- which is certainly way better than "designer knows best" and unapologetically shunning huge sections of their playerbase for no good reason.
Designing without metrics is a bit like parallel parking with your eyes closed. Doing it "by feel" is incredibly destructive, so why not open your eyes and do it the right way?
But despite looking at metrics, the fact that huge chunks of their gameplay (like leveling) are nevertheless shunning users just like those unsuccessful games, is still a big hole in the way Blizzard offers challenge.
1) Their hard mode completion is less than 1% of 1%. So it is OBVIOUSLY too difficult if 5% is the number you are using. In fact, the NORMAL mode completion of DS is 4%, and Sunwell is 2%. So WOW is already TOO DIFFICULT by your 5% number. So it is of no surprise they are lowering the difficult of normal mode.
2) Well you see it half empty, i see it half full. They already have normal, hard & LFR ... 3 difficulties. Obviously it is hard to change difficulties gradually when you have complex mechanics. For example, there are one-shot mechanisms in the Lich King fight .... so how do u make THAT more forgiving?
3) Sure, the leveling game has little difficulty. No argument about that. However, is leveling really a "huge chunk" of the gameplay. Many will tell you they spend MORE time at max level than not.
1) Their hard mode completion is less than 1% of 1%. So it is OBVIOUSLY too difficult if 5% is the number you are using. In fact, the NORMAL mode completion of DS is 4%, and Sunwell is 2%. So WOW is already TOO DIFFICULT by your 5% number. So it is of no surprise they are lowering the difficult of normal mode.
2) Well you see it half empty, i see it half full. They already have normal, hard & LFR ... 3 difficulties. Obviously it is hard to change difficulties gradually when you have complex mechanics. For example, there are one-shot mechanisms in the Lich King fight .... so how do u make THAT more forgiving?
3) Sure, the leveling game has little difficulty. No argument about that. However, is leveling really a "huge chunk" of the gameplay. Many will tell you they spend MORE time at max level than not.
1. Depends on how you slice it really. 1% of total users may actually be the 5% of users at max level who've dungeoned at least once (which is really what I meant.) Although Sunwell in particular was too brutal (and behind other brutal content; I never got to it.)
And the other "how you slice it" angle is the percentages (a) attempting a raid at all, (b) beating the first boss, and (c) beating the last boss. A ton of people who raid should be capable of beating normal raids to completion (with a moderate amount of failing and retrying next week), whereas it's fine if only a tiny fraction of players (like 1%) who raid are able to complete every last bit of content on the hardest difficulty.
2. This is more my complete distaste of raiding than anything. I want to run Legendary and then Ultra Legendary dungeons with small-scale groups (which I love in WOW) before I ever want to bother with the hassles of raiding. Although admittedly I haven't tried LFR, I imagine it would only solve one problem (scheduled gaming) and not the other (relying on 24 other people not to suck.)
3. It's still a huge chunk of gameplay, even if it's not a massive chunk of your overall playtime. More importantly, it's the chunk where the majority of players die out -- so improving that chunk actually dramatically increases the number of players playing the game and reaching endgame.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
WoW's problem is that is has become a Sport rather than a game in this case.
But, the majority of people do nto play in professional Sports teams, they sit around it and watch other play. The majority of people are not athletes, the majority of people comprise the audiance.
But this will not work in the context of a Game such as this.
It is a themepark game, you cannot segregate your players and only let a small percentage go for a Ride in it.
You either let everyone go on all the rides or no one.
That is, of cource that you want to provide a Themepark experience.
A sandbox experience is a different story.
A refocus is needed, unless you are ok with having only that 1% as players of your game. And even then it is a gamble, because the psychology of the pure achiever is that he/she thrives with the thought of having achieved something that others have not, it is self-centered, this is the motivation behind all his/her actions and if there is no one left to admire the achievement, he/she will move on too.
The choice, from a business sense is quite clear I think.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Your solution is "Well then they should get better or quit." and that's just not reasonable for a video game comprised of millions of people looking to just have some fun. It's still a computer game.
It is reasonable, in WoW everyone expects to raid, everyone expects to be able to do heroics, everyone expects to get everything. Before WoW that wasn't the case. Gimme gimme gimme, and the game goes down the drain.
That's the reason everyone makes jokes about WoW in games like EQ and other games, they made a game everyone could play, from moms who have never touched a game in their life to 14-year-olds doing raids.
As for the only 35% have completed such and such a raid, how many have actually tried? A lot of people simply don't like raiding or don't have the time to spare.
Compare the 35% to the 4% number. OBVIOUSLY a lot more people than 4% want to get into the dragon soul raids. Otherwise there won't be the 35% who completed the LFR portion of it.
4% is obviously too difficult. That is why they are nerfing the normal mode. It will never be as easy as the LFR but there is no harm to be a little more assesssible.
The only thing what is obvious is that 35% people tryed to complete the "pinnacle raid" via lfr and they succeeded.
It does not show us how many of those planned to get into the raid even without the lfr, it does not show us how many people just wanted to see the "pinnacle raid", it does not show us how many people were there just for the rewards, it does not show us how many people just wanted to test out the lfr, and so on.
I mean, what would you do, if someone actually argued, that just because only 35% of people visited a single raid, it is OBVIOUS that raiding is a failure, because not even the majority of people does it, and we should phase it out altogether?
Nariusseldon is saying that 4% completing the follow-on raid is a big step down from the 35% who completed the first raid, indicating that the 2nd raid is maybe too hard. It's a fair point I think assuming that these raids have been around long enough to draw a conclusion.
Yeh .. that is my point.
That is where we agree and differ, we need to wait, but it indicates nothing, the timing itself together with the raid being about deathwing already skews the statistic, look at it this way, does a surge in the sales of a item that is 50% off mean, that the item is overpiced in the first place?
When the "50% off!" sticker gets old, we can talk.
Your solution is "Well then they should get better or quit." and that's just not reasonable for a video game comprised of millions of people looking to just have some fun. It's still a computer game.
It is reasonable, in WoW everyone expects to raid, everyone expects to be able to do heroics, everyone expects to get everything. Before WoW that wasn't the case. Gimme gimme gimme, and the game goes down the drain.
That's the reason everyone makes jokes about WoW in games like EQ and other games, they made a game everyone could play, from moms who have never touched a game in their life to 14-year-olds doing raids.
LOL .. it is a GAME.
It is certainly NOT reasonable, in any developer perspective, that only 4% (or 2% in sunwell) of its player base have seen the content.
Of course a CONSUMER of ENTERTAINMENT product can expect what to get out of the experience. People can vote with their MONEY, you know.
And saying a 10M player game is "going down the drain" just because you don't like it is laughable. I am glad you are not in chrage. Otherwise, only 10 people in the world will enjoy your game.
Comments
I think the extremely low take-up of the original Nax raid had a profound effect on Blizzard and by it's influence the entire MMO genre. It caused to Blizz to re-evaluate what they trying to achieve with raid dungeons altogether.
BC raid content was systematically nerfed throughout it's lifespan so it could be experienced by more players once the hardcore players were done.
WotLK saw the introduction of very easy raid content right from the outset.
Now this is only my suspicion, but I believe it is coming from people not even sub'ed to WoW or haven't accomplished the stated end game raids of any dificulty. I understand there is a segment of society that needs to lord what few accomplishments it has over the rest of us. Now that I wrote it out, I supose they might show up here to defend their claim to fame. Lets suppose there are ~4 Million US players of WoW. If 1% have accomplished the end-game raids on heroic that would be ~40,000 players. Or enough people to fill 20 Servers. If 1% of that came to the web site to defend their right to be the only players to accomplish end game in WoW, that would take only 400 players or 0.01% of all the US players.
Blizz should just ignore the 3,960,000 other players and Not tweek end-game dificulty. Those 3,960,000 paying customers should just leave WoW and cancel their subs and start playing Wizard 101 or some other game matching their skill and ability. And leave those 40,000 entitled customer to their fun.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
hardcore raiders have long being the Squekiest Wheel
Well, probably from Wrath. Things have changed a bit.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Just as hardcore raiders overstate their importance, raider wannabes do too, this post somehow assumes that all the 4m US players are trying to raid and that most of them are just not "hardcore" enough to pull it off, that the statement i read recently "i have to raid top content, only that makes any sense, if i cant, i am cheated out of my money" is somehow something all the 4m players think...
Not that i have something about tweaking endgame, just pointing out, that making raids easyer is not the silver bullet of game design, it will not miraculously fix everything, if it would , after wotlk, wow would have probably had atleast 16million players (which does not mean i am not aware of the 2million drop rumor).
Just.. get some perspective.
Oh, and that's worldwide. So 1,000 out of 10 million, 0.01%.
Isn't this the whole reason they have normal and hard modes for the raids? If the normal modes are too difficult then that's one thing but hard modes are supposed to be... hard, right?
WoW is easier because of the time it takes to get epics is how I always looked at it.
Before if you wanted to get PvP epics, you had to do it a lot because it was same-server BG, and the old honor system of ranks, not points.
Before, if you wanted to get raid gear, you NEEDED to get Fire Resist items, as MC had a lot of mobs with fire attacks and that was the first raid for many. You also NEEDED to coordinate 40 people into some kind of strategy (more than just tank n spank most of the time) and the majority of the raid had to be good (with 40 people there was usually 3-5 stragglers in most guilds, obviously not the elite ones)
Now, you can be freshly arrived at 85, join a LFR queue, and get geared in a day
Yeah, I'd say it's gotten easier
for perspective, it took me 2 weeks of raiding to get my first epic way back when, and I got lucky because the other warrior already had the sword
I completely agree with your post OP. I think recently MMO Champion released statistics showing that less then 10% of the playerbase actually killed the newer version of Ragnoros when it was current, kinda proving the point.
From personal experience I've seen this in action. Back in BC I was in a guild that basically hit a wall in tier 5 content and a ton of people decided it wasn't worth the time and effort to bother anymore and quit. I was frustrated as my background was in vanillia raiding but it took me a while to realise that it just wasn't fun for them anymore. If it's not fun why bother? That was why they changed the philosophy raidingwise in Wrath. It may not suit me, but theres far more people it will suit so fair enough.
Fact of the matter is WoW has been hated for years on this forums, it has had litle impact on it's popularity because those haters are the minority. So while your right don't expect anyone here to conceed the point.
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!
Getting your first epic doesn't mean you've killed the final raid boss. It also doesn't mean you've gotten your first (or last) piece of the top tier of raid gear. Raids are setup such that if you don't have the lower tier of epics quickly, you'll never get past the content. You need that gear quickly just to progress.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yeh. Hard mode *is* hard.
I was in a raiding guild and i did (no longer) some hard mode raiding back in WOTLK. It is NOT easy (with appropriate level gear, of course, now you can over-gear WOTLK encounters). We wiped for hours to practice certain manuevers. You need laser precision to get it done.
I no longer raid hard mode just because it is not fun to have to practice so long just to down one boss. Plus, i do not have the time.
I bet you are not playing WOW anymore because saying such things in game will get laughed at.
1) epics means NOTHING in wow. People use item level and gear score. If you only have entry level epics, you willl be at item level 359 (assuming every slot) and you won't be allowed even to do LFR (neednig gear level 372).
2) Hahahah ... you can join a LFR queue in a day? You know that you need gear level 372 to do LFR right? Before that, you need gear level 353 to do the twilight dungeons.
I will bet $10 that YOU cannot get LFR gear a day after you reach 85.
Compare the 35% to the 4% number. OBVIOUSLY a lot more people than 4% want to get into the dragon soul raids. Otherwise there won't be the 35% who completed the LFR portion of it.
4% is obviously too difficult. That is why they are nerfing the normal mode. It will never be as easy as the LFR but there is no harm to be a little more assesssible.
Blizzard's approach to difficulty has always been a bit hit and miss.
1. There should always be a challenge available to the Top 5% of players, and if that's not Hard Modes and Heroics then they need to implement Legendary Mode.
2. Along the same lines, Blizzard (and every MMORPG except CoX) is to blame for not implementing a more granular form of difficulty options where players can always reliably get the difficulty they want (and be rewarded accordingly.) This is particularly important for leveling content.
Apart from that, they're clearly looking at the numbers and how players actually play the game -- which is certainly way better than "designer knows best" and unapologetically shunning huge sections of their playerbase for no good reason.
Designing without metrics is a bit like parallel parking with your eyes closed. Doing it "by feel" is incredibly destructive, so why not open your eyes and do it the right way?
But despite looking at metrics, the fact that huge chunks of their gameplay (like leveling) are nevertheless shunning users just like those unsuccessful games, is still a big hole in the way Blizzard offers challenge.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The only thing what is obvious is that 35% people tryed to complete the "pinnacle raid" via lfr and they succeeded.
It does not show us how many of those planned to get into the raid even without the lfr, it does not show us how many people just wanted to see the "pinnacle raid", it does not show us how many people were there just for the rewards, it does not show us how many people just wanted to test out the lfr, and so on.
I mean, what would you do, if someone actually argued, that just because only 35% of people visited a single raid, it is OBVIOUS that raiding is a failure, because not even the majority of people does it, and we should phase it out altogether?
Nariusseldon is saying that 4% completing the follow-on raid is a big step down from the 35% who completed the first raid, indicating that the 2nd raid is maybe too hard. It's a fair point I think assuming that these raids have been around long enough to draw a conclusion.
Yeh .. that is my point.
1) Their hard mode completion is less than 1% of 1%. So it is OBVIOUSLY too difficult if 5% is the number you are using. In fact, the NORMAL mode completion of DS is 4%, and Sunwell is 2%. So WOW is already TOO DIFFICULT by your 5% number. So it is of no surprise they are lowering the difficult of normal mode.
2) Well you see it half empty, i see it half full. They already have normal, hard & LFR ... 3 difficulties. Obviously it is hard to change difficulties gradually when you have complex mechanics. For example, there are one-shot mechanisms in the Lich King fight .... so how do u make THAT more forgiving?
3) Sure, the leveling game has little difficulty. No argument about that. However, is leveling really a "huge chunk" of the gameplay. Many will tell you they spend MORE time at max level than not.
1. Depends on how you slice it really. 1% of total users may actually be the 5% of users at max level who've dungeoned at least once (which is really what I meant.) Although Sunwell in particular was too brutal (and behind other brutal content; I never got to it.)
And the other "how you slice it" angle is the percentages (a) attempting a raid at all, (b) beating the first boss, and (c) beating the last boss. A ton of people who raid should be capable of beating normal raids to completion (with a moderate amount of failing and retrying next week), whereas it's fine if only a tiny fraction of players (like 1%) who raid are able to complete every last bit of content on the hardest difficulty.
2. This is more my complete distaste of raiding than anything. I want to run Legendary and then Ultra Legendary dungeons with small-scale groups (which I love in WOW) before I ever want to bother with the hassles of raiding. Although admittedly I haven't tried LFR, I imagine it would only solve one problem (scheduled gaming) and not the other (relying on 24 other people not to suck.)
3. It's still a huge chunk of gameplay, even if it's not a massive chunk of your overall playtime. More importantly, it's the chunk where the majority of players die out -- so improving that chunk actually dramatically increases the number of players playing the game and reaching endgame.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
WoW's problem is that is has become a Sport rather than a game in this case.
But, the majority of people do nto play in professional Sports teams, they sit around it and watch other play. The majority of people are not athletes, the majority of people comprise the audiance.
But this will not work in the context of a Game such as this.
It is a themepark game, you cannot segregate your players and only let a small percentage go for a Ride in it.
You either let everyone go on all the rides or no one.
That is, of cource that you want to provide a Themepark experience.
A sandbox experience is a different story.
A refocus is needed, unless you are ok with having only that 1% as players of your game. And even then it is a gamble, because the psychology of the pure achiever is that he/she thrives with the thought of having achieved something that others have not, it is self-centered, this is the motivation behind all his/her actions and if there is no one left to admire the achievement, he/she will move on too.
The choice, from a business sense is quite clear I think.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Meh
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
It is reasonable, in WoW everyone expects to raid, everyone expects to be able to do heroics, everyone expects to get everything. Before WoW that wasn't the case. Gimme gimme gimme, and the game goes down the drain.
That's the reason everyone makes jokes about WoW in games like EQ and other games, they made a game everyone could play, from moms who have never touched a game in their life to 14-year-olds doing raids.
That is where we agree and differ, we need to wait, but it indicates nothing, the timing itself together with the raid being about deathwing already skews the statistic, look at it this way, does a surge in the sales of a item that is 50% off mean, that the item is overpiced in the first place?
When the "50% off!" sticker gets old, we can talk.
LOL .. it is a GAME.
It is certainly NOT reasonable, in any developer perspective, that only 4% (or 2% in sunwell) of its player base have seen the content.
Of course a CONSUMER of ENTERTAINMENT product can expect what to get out of the experience. People can vote with their MONEY, you know.
And saying a 10M player game is "going down the drain" just because you don't like it is laughable. I am glad you are not in chrage. Otherwise, only 10 people in the world will enjoy your game.