I have not hit max level yet but soon. They need to bring max level players back to the worlds by making them interesting in my opinion. Every time I start to explore I get stuck in a crevice or hole, lol. Frustrating. The worlds have to be interesting for reasons other than leveling in my opinion. It's not always a grind to get better stats. For example:
1) randomly, npcs could drop a mission that sets you on a quest chain that ultimately awards you with something fun, like a social/rp reward...such as titles, items or mods that give you special emotes, additional clothing or hairstyle options, respec token which u could use after class quest completion so as not to screw things up, etc.
I always giggle when people blast through an MMO at ridiculous speed and then wonder why they're getting tired of it. Get a hobby, pick up a book, go outside. A part time job maybe? People who spend 60 hours a week playing an MMO are experiencing something called 'burning out'. Take it a little slow, enjoy the game.
Dang, brutal, see how fanboys quickly through pervious fans under the bus.
Dark Pony let me be the first to welcome you to the REAL dark side.
Hehe, I'm not much of a "hater" though if that's what you mean. Like others reasoned; this game can in fact be turned around for a great deal. There's vast potential to be uncovered if they address a few crucial points. Not only by additional development but also simply shift around some mechanics here and there.
You see you dont have to be a hater to be labled a hater. To blinded fanboys any type of negative comments towad the game will lable you a troll/hater. Even though your post is well though out and seemingly from the heart, it doesnt matter. Its not praising the game therefore your a hater. And as you can see personal attacks ensue
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I could play the "we" told you so card here but I wont. Just saying sad for you that it didn't meet your expectations hopefully you'll find another game which you like in the long run.
I still think a lot of the criticism / flak which Swtor has been getting was either premature, not based on facts or actual experience and inspired by personal bias though.
There has been very little worthwhile criticism from people who had actually played it for a long time / made it to level 50 in beta. The little of it that actually did surface was subsequently drowned in the onslaught of unmerrited hate.
The points in the above impression are based on my own experiences though,and I don't regret a minute of playing it or a penny spend on it. Because like I said, I did have a great first month.
[Mod Edit]
That's a load of ****.
There's been plenty of unfounded criticism from people who might have played two hours in a beta weekend and already had their mind made up before they even touched the game, way too much even.
To give just one example: "The single player game rant"; People complained on and on about the game being essentially a single player game which in my eyes actually is a very superficial qualification; look at what I wrote; end game consists mainly of flashpoints and warzones; both multiplayer content. Throughout leveling there's a ton of multiplayer heroics to do. Heck I wish there was more stuff to do for single players at 50.
Same with the "static mobs", "lifeless worlds", etc. Those things haven't bothered me.
i.e. The bulk of pre-release hater rethoric doesn't fit my personal complaints at all, which you might have noticed if you had read the op with a bit more attention.
It's exactly due to the sheer amount of premature, biased criticism (which most games get) that I value my own judgement over anyone else's.
I always giggle when people blast through an MMO at ridiculous speed and then wonder why they're getting tired of it. Get a hobby, pick up a book, go outside. A part time job maybe? People who spend 60 hours a week playing an MMO are experiencing something called 'burning out'. Take it a little slow, enjoy the game.
Dang, brutal, see how fanboys quickly through pervious fans under the bus.
Dark Pony let me be the first to welcome you to the REAL dark side.
Hehe, I'm not much of a "hater" though if that's what you mean. Like others reasoned; this game can in fact be turned around for a great deal. There's vast potential to be uncovered if they address a few crucial points. Not only by additional development but also simply shift around some mechanics here and there.
You see you dont have to be a hater to be labled a hater. To blinded fanboys any type of negative comments towad the game will lable you a troll/hater. Even though your post is well though out and seemingly from the heart, it doesnt matter. Its not praising the game therefore your a hater. And as you can see personal attacks ensue
amazing isn't it? I get branded a hater on pretty much every big thread on here and all I try to do Is voice my opinion on things i feel will help the game..
I have came to the conclution that if games like SWTOR and RIFT lack content to you people then we can say goodbye to the days of 500k+ sub numbers and hello to the "Play the MMO for a few months then leave" era.
They don't lack content as such, but you run through it too fast. What TOR misses right now is endgame content, not the same thing.
Then why play MMOs at launch if this is the problem?
People seem to be shooting themselves in the foot when they play an MMO (Sandbox or themepark does not really matter) and expect it to have the same amount of content as WoW.
WoW has had about 12ish years of development, TOR has had about 5.
Common sense is not what drives a MMO gamer. It's the addiction of needing that new fix. As such all common sense is put aside because that "new feeling" is more important than anything.
The same story always. Every game have it. People rush to max level, and then complai. The game is a few months old, and off course the game have to devolope over time.
Why is you allready lvl 50? maybe enjoy the game instead. Take some days off sometimes.
I have played since launch, and I just dinged 20 today.
Not even one month yet unless you count the pre-order days.
Been playing the whole month.. only at 27 with my main. Take some breaks people. There's another mmo to play once in a while called real life out there.
Why exactly should this ever be a response to a thread like this?
The game is not designed for people to take very long to get to end game. Yet "end game" is almost non existant.
You are trying to blame a customer for something no customer can be at fault for. When a player logs into a game if the developer doesn't want to create an end game.. then the game should be designed with a paticular level curve. If someone has been playing for almost a month and is only level 27... then you don't play very much. If I was to simply log in 3 hours a night and play and take weekends off... after 20 days (4 weeks of 5 days) at 3 hours per day I would be far higher than 27... because of the games design. If 3 hours a night .. 5 days a week is playing too much then something is seriously wrong...
MMO's in general are supposedly designed to keep people playing for years. If I can hit 50 in the first month and the game loses its appeal due to lack of engaging end game... by the way don't confuse that with "lack of content" which somehow is the translation people are using. The solution is...
If I just mess around with alts or take a lot of time off from the product i am paying for... I won't notice the lack of engaging content or it will take me a couple years to hit 50 and then get bored... but hey at least I could play two years that way.
What kind of logic is that?
Here is a bit of reality...
The first phase of general beta that I hit 50 in... I never saw another player on Ilum. The last bit of the phase there were a few but widely tested? no.
So they were going to give everyone high level characters. Tottally borked the server.. high level characters reverted out.
Then they were going to deploy a high level server... after a couple days of issues they took that down.
Then they tried again during one of the beta weekends. Well that didn't work out either.
All the while people in beta were wondering about "end game" you know besides Operation. After all BioWare had direct access to DAoC which had awesome RvR in the frontiers with the keep capture/relic system etc Darkness Falls the RvR dungeon was really nice as well (in my opinion). Or WAR which various people liked at one point or another (certain pvp aspects).
Then this article came out where one of the BioWare people talked about all these capture and control points.. and said how Ilum was just one world like this...
Which was odd because as a beta tester I was like.. um what? None of this exists... and um the game is live and pretty much reading the Original post... they aren't talking about a lack of content and being bored.
They are talking about you click on something... people avoid actually fighting to be more effecient and that's boring and uninspired.
Well its going to be boring and uninspired even if they took 6 months to find out instead of a month. When I played WAR at release around Tier 3 that's what it turned into. People grinding points to level and get gear... they would not attack a fort if it was defended because that took time. So we had the warbands running points.. avoiding each other and those of us that wanted to RvR trying to solo or duo a warband.. um right.
That experience sounded oddly familiar to what the OP was talking about... somehow...
I mean if there were some fortifications to fight over.. and these bonuses the BioWare reps were talking about when they went on and on about Ilum... people would probably be doing PvP similar to the DAoC frontier and not be bored.. but the game can't possibly launch with something like that... so um hey let's just level slow and wait.
Since end game is where people are supposed to spend a few years... and they designed the game for fast leveling.. it might have been a concept to launch with something a bit more interesting... just maybe...
*edit*
The BioWare information I refer to in this thread was from the TOR panel at Pax. Which was around the end of August 2011.
Link from this very site with highlights from that panel....
Highlights:
Many different neutral planets that players can fight over, with territory control.
There will be bases, turrets, and other objectives that players can control on these planets (Ilum is one example planet).
Can call in bombing runs on the enemy base once planetary defenses are down.
Valor (and other) rewards for players who participate. 'Mercenary' commendations can be earned via World PvP to purchase the best PvP gear.
(same thing you'll see at the link pretty much).
Where is that game?
Thanks for the insight in your beta experiences. It explains a lot about the current issues with world pvp. I guess they are simply not done yet; they ran out of development time / funds and hadn't even properly tested the world pvp content which the game shipped with. Curious how quickly they'll be fixing this.
Most of what you describe plagues the standard themepark model as a whole. It's not really that the developers forgot to add things or that they made bad design choices, but that they chose to prioritize a specific kind of player. What I mean is, their endgame is tailored to appeal to the average themepark player, a type that values instanced PvE and instanced PvP. It's what keeps the wheel spinning.
What's my take on all of this? Honestly, I also do appreciate some sandbox elements. Being able to develop my character the way I want is something I value greatly. Sadly, we can't have it all in one perfect package. The games that do have these sandbox elements lack the things that make themepark games so fun, such as the cinematic storytelling. There has yet to be an MMO that successfully combines the depth, variety, and free-form ways of a sandbox, and the rich storytelling and instantaneous fun of a themepark.
/salute DarkPony for being so candid. The points you raise are not actually new, others apparently came to this conclusion when reaching this same point in their gameplay experience.
I've had a copy of the game since Christmas, but haven't broken the seal yet as I still think I want to give this title a chance to gel some. (never even tried it in beta)
I suspect by the 6 month mark they'll have improved on many of these issues, especially PVP relevance, and that's probably when I'll give it a try.
Bioware actually were told this when they first talk about the game and it's features, many people already then said that the concept lack longevity.
I have came to the conclution that if games like SWTOR and RIFT lack content to you people then we can say goodbye to the days of 500k+ sub numbers and hello to the "Play the MMO for a few months then leave" era.
We've been at that stage for years now. It's not that bad once you get your head around it and it saves a fortune in subs.
First off, you've always been a good member of these forums since I can remember, so you have my respect.
My opinion on this is, SWTOR is a themepark game. I view themepark games much as co op games. Basically, I think they're meant to play through the content and then quit once you exhaust it. Therefore, my plan is to play through all 8 class stories, and see all the content Bioware has to offer, including the Operations. Once that is done, I'll likely quit just like I would any single player or co op game. I don't think this is a bad thing, and is a casual approach by developers to MMORPG games.
My interests in MMO's generally lie in grouping for PvE and objective based RvR type PvP, which is no surprise since my two favorite games were DAoC and SWG. It's games like that which get my long term subscriptions, but I can enjoy both styles of games if the setting is right.
The reason I picked up SWTOR is because it's a Star Wars game, and I love Star Wars, and because it's a Bioware game, and I love Bioware. I took a nearly 1 year break from MMO's, because I generally don't like quest-based leveling games. I much prefer to group up and grind mobs in the world, or dungeons. I feel that SWTOR offers, better than most games since WoW, enough group content to keep me content.
This game does have its problems and bugs, and I won't defend Bioware for them. It is what it is. I think SWTOR is a solid game and will likely keep me interested for about 8 months or so, unless there's a substantial amount of content released in that time to keep me subscribed longer. I think that's how long it'll take to complete all 8 class stories and all the hardmode flashpoints and operations at least once, which is all I care to do. In this day and age of MMORPG themeparkiness, I think that's a substantially long period of time for me to play a MMO. Not compared to the years I spent playing DAoC, and the years I would have stuck with SWG if it didn't go NGE, but compared to the 1-3 months for other titles, it is.
I wish you luck in your gaming career, and I hope some of your points get addressed by Bioware, especially the meaningful world PvP part.
I've waited it out to get the full story on how world pvp would be, and I'm glad I did. This is Star WARS for gawd sakes.... the game was screaming for solid pvp in every aspect. Yet we get worse then what's out there with other games, due to instanced zones (man I hate that) and questing areas that do not over lap.
We've been at that stage for years now. It's not that bad once you get your head around it and it saves a fortune in subs.
I was speaking rather hm whats the word. Negativly towards those who find that games with a shit load of content compared to everything released in the last 8 years somehow lacking.
If TOR and RIFT are lacking I doubt that GW2, TSW or AA will have any more meat on their bones.
I could play the "we" told you so card here but I wont. Just saying sad for you that it didn't meet your expectations hopefully you'll find another game which you like in the long run.
There'd be no reason for the "told you so" line anyways. SWTOR cost $60 to play, and he got 1 month of enjoyment out of it, and in that month probably close to 200 hours worth of playtime. That's definitely worth the money spent, especially compared to most games that last you anywhere from 8 hours to 50 hours, yet still cost $60.
Wow, Pony, if YOU say it, it really makes me sad, too. I always thought I was overly critical. I still think the genre needs a "kick in the ass" to get moving, but now when even you write such things...
*hugs Pony*
It makes me sad to hear that. But then, I can not say I am surprised, as smart-assy as it sounds. *sigh*
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
We've been at that stage for years now. It's not that bad once you get your head around it and it saves a fortune in subs.
I was speaking rather hm whats the word. Negativly towards those who find that games with a shit load of content compared to everything released in the last 8 years somehow lacking.
If TOR and RIFT are lacking I doubt that GW2, TSW or AA will have any more meat on their bones.
Those three games advertise a different type of endgame. From eachother, and from WoW/Rift/TOR.
I don't know how true it'll turn out to be, but I don't think the problem is lack endgame content, so much as type of endgame content, or endgame content diversity. Which is to say, those game may not offer more content, but will hopefully appeal to players who want a different sort of endgame. Even if it is similarly light at release.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
/salute DarkPony for being so candid. The points you raise are not actually new, others apparently came to this conclusion when reaching this same point in their gameplay experience.
I've had a copy of the game since Christmas, but haven't broken the seal yet as I still think I want to give this title a chance to gel some. (never even tried it in beta)
I suspect by the 6 month mark they'll have improved on many of these issues, especially PVP relevance, and that's probably when I'll give it a try.
That's not entirely a bad idea, but I'd advise against it. Most themepark games don't continue to draw in enough new people to keep the lower zones populated enough to complete the group-based content. You "may" find yourself in a top heavy game or with people rolling alts, who've been there and done that already. It's a lot of fun running through heroic quests and flashpoints for the first time, when it's other peoples first time too. Mistakes are made, hard lessons are learned, people are more chatty and laugh a lot, and the experience is good.
Just as an example, I started playing WoW with WoTLK. If you played WoW, you know by that time groups were harder to find, and when you found them people wanted to rush through the instances. That's not fun at all. It's just fun experiencing everything for the first time with people who are also experiencing everything for the first time.
The same story always. Every game have it. People rush to max level, and then complai. The game is a few months old, and off course the game have to devolope over time.
Why is you allready lvl 50? maybe enjoy the game instead. Take some days off sometimes.
I have played since launch, and I just dinged 20 today.
Grats so did I I've had it since just after christmas . I've played for two- three hours a day . I think maybe some of the problem with getting to level 50 that quickly is not everyone has been in a huge rush so you dont have lots of people at max level to play the end game with .
I cant help feelng what people would have thought when they got to max level in Vanilla WoW in month one . There were two battlegrounds available and a handful of endgame instances .
They would have been in a similar boat .
I think the point is not that 'powerlevelers' have hit 50 quickly i.e. in 3 days it is the fact that lots of people have hit 50 already. The 'average players' are hitting 50 well before the end of the first month. Indeed I find it ironic that there were people who would say "people shouldn't rush, I have taken my time and have only hit 35 on my main and 20s on my alts ..... after 2 weeks. And that's without people twinking their characters etc. - usually leveling gets faster as people get to grips with the game etc.
Now level 20 from .... EGA? .... is pretty slow imo but that's OK as well. As long as the game is fun. (In EQ1 level 20 could take a year so if you want slow leveling .........)
And if you feel the need to bring up WoW at leats be accurate and check out the patch history.
Blackrock Spire, Stratholme, Wintersprings, Scholomance, Eastern and Western Plaguelands (Andorhal), Onyxia and Molten Core were all in before launch. And the first content update in December (so prior to the EU launch) added Maraudon. Scarlet Monastery, Blackfathom Deeps, Gnomeregan, Uldaman, Sunken Temple, Razorfen Downs were in as well. Plus a host of other stuff.
I was there - one of the first 60 necros on our server - and without knocking SWTOR can say with absolute certainty that WoW had more day 1 content than SWTOR. (And the content kept coming).
There's been plenty of unfounded criticism from people who might have played two hours in a beta weekend and already had their mind made up before they even touched the game, way too much even.
To give just one example: "The single player game rant"; People complained on and on about the game being essentially a single player game which in my eyes actually is a very superficial qualification; look at what I wrote; end game consists mainly of flashpoints and warzones; both multiplayer content. Throughout leveling there's a ton of multiplayer heroics to do. Heck I wish there was more stuff to do for single players at 50.
Same with the "static mobs", "lifeless worlds", etc. Those things haven't bothered me.
i.e. The bulk of pre-release hater rethoric doesn't fit my personal complaints at all, which you might have noticed if you had read the op with a bit more attention.
It's exactly due to the sheer amount of premature, biased criticism (which most games get) that I value my own judgement over anyone else's.
Sorry to sound snippy but sue me for that.
The game gets its single player lable because of the journey to cap. Not because of what end-game offers. If any MMO keeps what is a so called end-game solo friendly then the game would be dead faster than TOR.
And like I have said it doesnt matter what your complaints are, because they are complaints. Anyone with any type of complaints about the game wil warrant personal attacks.
You say the bulk of your complaints dont fit pre- releasde retoric? Your wrong
lets start off with my absolute biggest gripe of the game since i first got into beta
Fragmented game "world":
The abuse of instances and long loading screens was very well stated mutiple times. I know this because for me, first and foremost an MMORPG must have living breathing world. Not a collection of zones. I know I "hated" on this in multiple threads and saw countless others "hating" on it as well. This is what I will attack first in an MMO.
Cookie cutter themepark formula
Are you kidding me..... this was the number one hate topic of tor.
Uninspired design
This was also eluded to pre-launch, I saw several posts calling it HUB play.
As for the rest of your points, yes they really dont apply to pre-release "hating" because you pretty much have to be at cap to realize the rest of your concerns. when in reality not enough players in beta had the chance to get to cap.
And is it just me or do I find it funny that every game has potential. Its true but, yet no game has ever reached that potential. When you become an MMO realist you will learn to not put hopes in "potential". WAR had potential, AoC had potential. STO had potential, DCUO had potential, FFXIV had potential. I know whats coming next........ "but this is Bioware!! They will release the miracle patch!!" Long story short its not happening. It is what it is. In another 60 days this game will be history. Just another refrence on the list in the "next big P2P themepark" game board.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
The same story always. Every game have it. People rush to max level, and then complai. The game is a few months old, and off course the game have to devolope over time.
Why is you allready lvl 50? maybe enjoy the game instead. Take some days off sometimes.
I have played since launch, and I just dinged 20 today.
That's not fair, especially when you don't know all the facts. You shouldn't assume anything about a persons playstyle.
Getting to 50 in SWTOR takes about 150 hours from what I hear. When games are new, whether they're single player or MMO's, people tend to spend a lot of time on them at the start, and then mellow out to a more casual pace later on. It took him about a month to reach level cap, which is really an average pace, not a hardcore one. Hardcores are reaching 50 in 1 week, 2 weeks tops.
There's nothing wrong with taking your time, and for a game where the fun is in the journey, it's a good way to play. But you must know that 20 levels in a month is so casual your playtime is on the opposite end of the spectrum from the hardcores. I think you should be looking at the average amount of /played time before judging a person for rushing to end game.
Those three games advertise a different type of endgame. From eachother, and from WoW/Rift/TOR.
I don't know how true it'll turn out to be, but I don't think the problem is lack endgame content, so much as type of endgame content, or endgame content diversity. Which is to say, those game may not offer more content, but will hopefully appeal to players who want a different sort of endgame. Even if it is similarly light at release.
GW2 all in all has no end game, its PvP from what I can tell is a lot like SWTOR's is now (Anyone can do it and everyone is thrown in at level 10-50) with the exception of endgame WPvP for SWTOR, heavily casual in that it takes the same amount of time to get from 10-11 as it does 54-55. People will level find that there is less end game then even SWTOR and leave.
TSW and AA are sandbox games, AA from the looks of it seems to be a little like WoW combat wise save for the combo system and it being a sandbox (With no major IP attacht) means that its more then likely to go at best the way of EvE.
Don't know all to much about TSW.
But as I said before if TOR and RIFT do not (In a year or so) have a good solid playing base of 1mil+ and 300k+ respectivly then the MMO genre is fucked IMO and no game will be able to ever again get over a million subs.
Who wonders that it is as it is? It has the strengths and the weaknesses typical to Bioware and Mythic is only a name and no more an experienced studio having made the best fantasy mmo pvp game off all time. I dont see myself spending more than 3 months worth of money on it but i am still not 50 and probably its one more month till that as i play only 2 hours a day now and take it easy. Then in around 3 months TSW is out, probably only a few months more til Mechwarrior Online.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
The endgame stuff is really why I've decided just to skip the game for a year or two. Literally the only part of the game I'm interested in is the story (specifically class/companion stories) . I don't enjoy pvp or raiding instances even a little bit, so it's all about the questing and leveling for me (journey stuff, rather than destination stuff). Given how cost prohibitive it must be to produce not only quest arcs with branching pathways, but fully-voiced quest arcs with branching pathways, there's just no way BioWare could conceivably produce story content quickly enough to sustain me for long. Ultimately, I decided I'd be better off giving them a significant amount of time to add stuff, work out bugs and shed some population before I pick the game up at a later date.
There are 8 class stories in the game. It roughly takes 1 month of average playtime to complete 1 class story. Since you're likely to be faster subsequent go arounds, since you'll either skip the side quests or rush through them, it'll take probably around 6 months of hard playing to experience all the content.
If that's worth subbing for right now or not is up to you, but Bioware already has a content patch coming this week.
Thanks for the insight in your beta experiences. It explains a lot about the current issues with world pvp. I guess they are simply not done yet; they ran out of development time / funds and hadn't even properly tested the world pvp content which the game shipped with. Curious how quickly they'll be fixing this.
Considering what happened with Warhammer I'm afraid that answer may be never.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
This is a starwars game w/o any space... The "loading screens" between planets do not count in my eyes. No flying of any kind. I know people hate the idea of flying mounts, but this is a SciFi MMO Starwars.... They fly in the movies, you should fly in the game. In fact, entire zones should REQUIRE flying mounts to get around (Think TBC zones that more or less required it).
StarWars was about walkers, tanks, flying craft, vehicles.... So much more than just a guy running around with a blaster or light saber.
Reading your post literally made me sad. I know how psyched you were for this game, and I always enjoyed reading your posts even if I did disagree with them most of the time. So I feel for you that the game didn't live up to your expectations. And then at the end you have to put that horribly sad pony pic...you cut me deep lol
But yeah, that always sucks when you get to that point where you realize the game doesn't have anything left to offer. And I totally agree with what you recommended in your other posts. The fleet as the capital is just a terrible idea...makes the only social hub in the game into a horribly bland, utilitarian environment.
Oh well...we'll both just have to wait for the next big MMORPG .
Comments
/agree with all points
I have not hit max level yet but soon. They need to bring max level players back to the worlds by making them interesting in my opinion. Every time I start to explore I get stuck in a crevice or hole, lol. Frustrating. The worlds have to be interesting for reasons other than leveling in my opinion. It's not always a grind to get better stats. For example:
1) randomly, npcs could drop a mission that sets you on a quest chain that ultimately awards you with something fun, like a social/rp reward...such as titles, items or mods that give you special emotes, additional clothing or hairstyle options, respec token which u could use after class quest completion so as not to screw things up, etc.
2) Player bounties
And I'm out of time...work. Bah!
You see you dont have to be a hater to be labled a hater. To blinded fanboys any type of negative comments towad the game will lable you a troll/hater. Even though your post is well though out and seemingly from the heart, it doesnt matter. Its not praising the game therefore your a hater. And as you can see personal attacks ensue
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
That's a load of ****.
There's been plenty of unfounded criticism from people who might have played two hours in a beta weekend and already had their mind made up before they even touched the game, way too much even.
To give just one example: "The single player game rant"; People complained on and on about the game being essentially a single player game which in my eyes actually is a very superficial qualification; look at what I wrote; end game consists mainly of flashpoints and warzones; both multiplayer content. Throughout leveling there's a ton of multiplayer heroics to do. Heck I wish there was more stuff to do for single players at 50.
Same with the "static mobs", "lifeless worlds", etc. Those things haven't bothered me.
i.e. The bulk of pre-release hater rethoric doesn't fit my personal complaints at all, which you might have noticed if you had read the op with a bit more attention.
It's exactly due to the sheer amount of premature, biased criticism (which most games get) that I value my own judgement over anyone else's.
Sorry to sound snippy but sue me for that.
My brand new bloggity blog.
I just found out but it's pretty funny, this game is already being called TORtanic for a reason.
amazing isn't it? I get branded a hater on pretty much every big thread on here and all I try to do Is voice my opinion on things i feel will help the game..
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Common sense is not what drives a MMO gamer. It's the addiction of needing that new fix. As such all common sense is put aside because that "new feeling" is more important than anything.
Thanks for the insight in your beta experiences. It explains a lot about the current issues with world pvp. I guess they are simply not done yet; they ran out of development time / funds and hadn't even properly tested the world pvp content which the game shipped with. Curious how quickly they'll be fixing this.
My brand new bloggity blog.
Most of what you describe plagues the standard themepark model as a whole. It's not really that the developers forgot to add things or that they made bad design choices, but that they chose to prioritize a specific kind of player. What I mean is, their endgame is tailored to appeal to the average themepark player, a type that values instanced PvE and instanced PvP. It's what keeps the wheel spinning.
What's my take on all of this? Honestly, I also do appreciate some sandbox elements. Being able to develop my character the way I want is something I value greatly. Sadly, we can't have it all in one perfect package. The games that do have these sandbox elements lack the things that make themepark games so fun, such as the cinematic storytelling. There has yet to be an MMO that successfully combines the depth, variety, and free-form ways of a sandbox, and the rich storytelling and instantaneous fun of a themepark.
We've been at that stage for years now. It's not that bad once you get your head around it and it saves a fortune in subs.
Darkpony,
First off, you've always been a good member of these forums since I can remember, so you have my respect.
My opinion on this is, SWTOR is a themepark game. I view themepark games much as co op games. Basically, I think they're meant to play through the content and then quit once you exhaust it. Therefore, my plan is to play through all 8 class stories, and see all the content Bioware has to offer, including the Operations. Once that is done, I'll likely quit just like I would any single player or co op game. I don't think this is a bad thing, and is a casual approach by developers to MMORPG games.
My interests in MMO's generally lie in grouping for PvE and objective based RvR type PvP, which is no surprise since my two favorite games were DAoC and SWG. It's games like that which get my long term subscriptions, but I can enjoy both styles of games if the setting is right.
The reason I picked up SWTOR is because it's a Star Wars game, and I love Star Wars, and because it's a Bioware game, and I love Bioware. I took a nearly 1 year break from MMO's, because I generally don't like quest-based leveling games. I much prefer to group up and grind mobs in the world, or dungeons. I feel that SWTOR offers, better than most games since WoW, enough group content to keep me content.
This game does have its problems and bugs, and I won't defend Bioware for them. It is what it is. I think SWTOR is a solid game and will likely keep me interested for about 8 months or so, unless there's a substantial amount of content released in that time to keep me subscribed longer. I think that's how long it'll take to complete all 8 class stories and all the hardmode flashpoints and operations at least once, which is all I care to do. In this day and age of MMORPG themeparkiness, I think that's a substantially long period of time for me to play a MMO. Not compared to the years I spent playing DAoC, and the years I would have stuck with SWG if it didn't go NGE, but compared to the 1-3 months for other titles, it is.
I wish you luck in your gaming career, and I hope some of your points get addressed by Bioware, especially the meaningful world PvP part.
I've waited it out to get the full story on how world pvp would be, and I'm glad I did. This is Star WARS for gawd sakes.... the game was screaming for solid pvp in every aspect. Yet we get worse then what's out there with other games, due to instanced zones (man I hate that) and questing areas that do not over lap.
Very short sighted on BW/EA.
I was speaking rather hm whats the word. Negativly towards those who find that games with a shit load of content compared to everything released in the last 8 years somehow lacking.
If TOR and RIFT are lacking I doubt that GW2, TSW or AA will have any more meat on their bones.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
There'd be no reason for the "told you so" line anyways. SWTOR cost $60 to play, and he got 1 month of enjoyment out of it, and in that month probably close to 200 hours worth of playtime. That's definitely worth the money spent, especially compared to most games that last you anywhere from 8 hours to 50 hours, yet still cost $60.
Wow, Pony, if YOU say it, it really makes me sad, too. I always thought I was overly critical. I still think the genre needs a "kick in the ass" to get moving, but now when even you write such things...
*hugs Pony*
It makes me sad to hear that. But then, I can not say I am surprised, as smart-assy as it sounds. *sigh*
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Those three games advertise a different type of endgame. From eachother, and from WoW/Rift/TOR.
I don't know how true it'll turn out to be, but I don't think the problem is lack endgame content, so much as type of endgame content, or endgame content diversity. Which is to say, those game may not offer more content, but will hopefully appeal to players who want a different sort of endgame. Even if it is similarly light at release.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
That's not entirely a bad idea, but I'd advise against it. Most themepark games don't continue to draw in enough new people to keep the lower zones populated enough to complete the group-based content. You "may" find yourself in a top heavy game or with people rolling alts, who've been there and done that already. It's a lot of fun running through heroic quests and flashpoints for the first time, when it's other peoples first time too. Mistakes are made, hard lessons are learned, people are more chatty and laugh a lot, and the experience is good.
Just as an example, I started playing WoW with WoTLK. If you played WoW, you know by that time groups were harder to find, and when you found them people wanted to rush through the instances. That's not fun at all. It's just fun experiencing everything for the first time with people who are also experiencing everything for the first time.
I think the point is not that 'powerlevelers' have hit 50 quickly i.e. in 3 days it is the fact that lots of people have hit 50 already. The 'average players' are hitting 50 well before the end of the first month. Indeed I find it ironic that there were people who would say "people shouldn't rush, I have taken my time and have only hit 35 on my main and 20s on my alts ..... after 2 weeks. And that's without people twinking their characters etc. - usually leveling gets faster as people get to grips with the game etc.
Now level 20 from .... EGA? .... is pretty slow imo but that's OK as well. As long as the game is fun. (In EQ1 level 20 could take a year so if you want slow leveling .........)
And if you feel the need to bring up WoW at leats be accurate and check out the patch history.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_0.6
Blackrock Spire, Stratholme, Wintersprings, Scholomance, Eastern and Western Plaguelands (Andorhal), Onyxia and Molten Core were all in before launch. And the first content update in December (so prior to the EU launch) added Maraudon. Scarlet Monastery, Blackfathom Deeps, Gnomeregan, Uldaman, Sunken Temple, Razorfen Downs were in as well. Plus a host of other stuff.
I was there - one of the first 60 necros on our server - and without knocking SWTOR can say with absolute certainty that WoW had more day 1 content than SWTOR. (And the content kept coming).
The game gets its single player lable because of the journey to cap. Not because of what end-game offers. If any MMO keeps what is a so called end-game solo friendly then the game would be dead faster than TOR.
And like I have said it doesnt matter what your complaints are, because they are complaints. Anyone with any type of complaints about the game wil warrant personal attacks.
You say the bulk of your complaints dont fit pre- releasde retoric? Your wrong
lets start off with my absolute biggest gripe of the game since i first got into beta
Fragmented game "world":
The abuse of instances and long loading screens was very well stated mutiple times. I know this because for me, first and foremost an MMORPG must have living breathing world. Not a collection of zones. I know I "hated" on this in multiple threads and saw countless others "hating" on it as well. This is what I will attack first in an MMO.
Cookie cutter themepark formula
Are you kidding me..... this was the number one hate topic of tor.
Uninspired design
This was also eluded to pre-launch, I saw several posts calling it HUB play.
As for the rest of your points, yes they really dont apply to pre-release "hating" because you pretty much have to be at cap to realize the rest of your concerns. when in reality not enough players in beta had the chance to get to cap.
And is it just me or do I find it funny that every game has potential. Its true but, yet no game has ever reached that potential. When you become an MMO realist you will learn to not put hopes in "potential". WAR had potential, AoC had potential. STO had potential, DCUO had potential, FFXIV had potential. I know whats coming next........ "but this is Bioware!! They will release the miracle patch!!" Long story short its not happening. It is what it is. In another 60 days this game will be history. Just another refrence on the list in the "next big P2P themepark" game board.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
That's not fair, especially when you don't know all the facts. You shouldn't assume anything about a persons playstyle.
Getting to 50 in SWTOR takes about 150 hours from what I hear. When games are new, whether they're single player or MMO's, people tend to spend a lot of time on them at the start, and then mellow out to a more casual pace later on. It took him about a month to reach level cap, which is really an average pace, not a hardcore one. Hardcores are reaching 50 in 1 week, 2 weeks tops.
There's nothing wrong with taking your time, and for a game where the fun is in the journey, it's a good way to play. But you must know that 20 levels in a month is so casual your playtime is on the opposite end of the spectrum from the hardcores. I think you should be looking at the average amount of /played time before judging a person for rushing to end game.
GW2 all in all has no end game, its PvP from what I can tell is a lot like SWTOR's is now (Anyone can do it and everyone is thrown in at level 10-50) with the exception of endgame WPvP for SWTOR, heavily casual in that it takes the same amount of time to get from 10-11 as it does 54-55. People will level find that there is less end game then even SWTOR and leave.
TSW and AA are sandbox games, AA from the looks of it seems to be a little like WoW combat wise save for the combo system and it being a sandbox (With no major IP attacht) means that its more then likely to go at best the way of EvE.
Don't know all to much about TSW.
But as I said before if TOR and RIFT do not (In a year or so) have a good solid playing base of 1mil+ and 300k+ respectivly then the MMO genre is fucked IMO and no game will be able to ever again get over a million subs.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Who wonders that it is as it is?
It has the strengths and the weaknesses typical to Bioware and Mythic is only a name and no more an experienced studio having made the best fantasy mmo pvp game off all time.
I dont see myself spending more than 3 months worth of money on it but i am still not 50 and probably its one more month till that as i play only 2 hours a day now and take it easy.
Then in around 3 months TSW is out, probably only a few months more til Mechwarrior Online.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
There are 8 class stories in the game. It roughly takes 1 month of average playtime to complete 1 class story. Since you're likely to be faster subsequent go arounds, since you'll either skip the side quests or rush through them, it'll take probably around 6 months of hard playing to experience all the content.
If that's worth subbing for right now or not is up to you, but Bioware already has a content patch coming this week.
Considering what happened with Warhammer I'm afraid that answer may be never.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
This is a starwars game w/o any space... The "loading screens" between planets do not count in my eyes. No flying of any kind. I know people hate the idea of flying mounts, but this is a SciFi MMO Starwars.... They fly in the movies, you should fly in the game. In fact, entire zones should REQUIRE flying mounts to get around (Think TBC zones that more or less required it).
StarWars was about walkers, tanks, flying craft, vehicles.... So much more than just a guy running around with a blaster or light saber.
(Directed at OP)
Ah man...
Reading your post literally made me sad. I know how psyched you were for this game, and I always enjoyed reading your posts even if I did disagree with them most of the time. So I feel for you that the game didn't live up to your expectations. And then at the end you have to put that horribly sad pony pic...you cut me deep lol
But yeah, that always sucks when you get to that point where you realize the game doesn't have anything left to offer. And I totally agree with what you recommended in your other posts. The fleet as the capital is just a terrible idea...makes the only social hub in the game into a horribly bland, utilitarian environment.
Oh well...we'll both just have to wait for the next big MMORPG
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?