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Sadly SWTOR is losing its appeal too fast for me at level 50.

That's right.

After anticipating and defending this game very eagerly for a year or more (you are welcome to check my posting history) and after making it to max level in a very Swtor-heavy first month I am sad to say I am kind of disappointed in its long term value.

Despite its potential and the very worthwhile first month I don't think I will play it for much longer. The main things which prevent me from having fun with it for a longer time are personal but maybe also general problems:

- Poorly thought out and implemented world pvp;

Things might change for the better when 1.1 gets released but as of now it is simply beyond disappointing;

Clicking a couple of enemy tanks a day to complete your daily and weekly world pvp quests; killing players actually is detrimental to completing that objective so both factions simply "exchange" world pvp objectives in a friendly atmosphere. Very ironic since these quests are pretty much the sole incentives to seek out enemy players in the open world. ... Seek out enemy players to "click on tanks with", that is.

Questing areas don't overlap much; on most worlds factions are playing in the same open map but in very seperate areas; No Southshore - Tarren Mill random pvp raids to stumble into.

The peeps at Blizzard were smart enough to actually put factions in eachother's ways, (both zone and quest wise), and throughout the leveling range bar the first zones. This is sadly lacking in Swtor. During leveling your battles with either empire of republic will be mostly restricted to warzones and npc enemies out in the world. If you do encounter an enemy player out in the world, please give him directions in /say because he's probably lost.

World pvp kills, as of now, don't even get registered or acknowledged, let alone reward valor or tokens.

Logically all this means that even the Outlaw's Den on Tatooine is as dead as a door nail.

I might stick around for 1.1 though, to see to what extent things will change in this regard but all in all it seems that all world pvp content was added as an afterthought. Much like crafting in WAR or AoC.

- Fragmented game "world":

Even though the worlds are big, open and richly detailed. And even though world <-> personal instance transitions are completely seamless, traveling between worlds or stations means staring at a long loading screen each time; so long that it breaks my attention, immersion and possibly other -ions too.

- Uninspired design;

Making relatively compact space stations the main hub for each faction was a very, very bad call in my opinion; it has been said before by others; these kind of artificial "shopping mall like" environments function pretty well as hubs but feel very artifical and unimmersive. Also they are lag heavy with 200+ players in your direct vicinity at prime time.

I think that the fleet cantina music (at least on empire side) will eventually inspire people to choke small animals and maybe even family members, which really is a shame.

- Cookie cutter themepark formula;

Swtor is going the well trodden path of carrot-driven gameplay a little too much in my opinion; even the exploring content (datacrons and matrix cubes / shards) are based on improvement / progress driven incentives. PvP, PvE, dailies, exploring, space-on-rails; its all about gearing up and improving your stats on a regular basis.

This cunning treadmill has proven to be one of the main pillars of success for "long term gaming" in general but sadly it is a little too apparent in SWTOR. Also because of the ...

- Lack of gameplay alternatives;

At max level it's either grinding the same old warzones (mostly Huttball), doing hard mode fp's, spend your 10 minutes on Ilum for quest completion each day and if you like some extra grind: doing level 50 dailies on Belsavis and Illum for "daily commendations".

Since I am not much of an instance crawler, the things I can do out in the open world, like world pvp, harvesting, fishing, to give a few examples, are crucial.

Sadly Swtor doesn't tap into that so much; the two main time sinks for players at max level are warzones and flashpoints; the worlds are mostly leveling content and don't play much of a role at all at level 50. So yeah, at 50 you'll spend most your time in either instances or in a shopping mall.

IF world pvp on Ilum post 1.1. turns out to be very fun and engaging even after people did their daily, that might be a saving grace in my eyes. I'm very curious how it will pan out.

- Final words:

My outlook has shifted a lot; I still think its a very good game but not so much in the long run for me personally. Since the things which are important to me: world pvp, alternative open world content and immersive aspects are either lacking or disappointing.

Some of these things might successfully be addressed soon though, rekindling my fire for this game, but as for now;

 

/sad pony

 

 

 

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Comments

  • pierthpierth Member UncommonPosts: 1,494

    Excellent points- it's a shame to see anyone lose interest in a game they enjoy, but really these are all things that have been complained about since before release of the game- it just all seems to get lost in the fanboi vs. hater nonsense.

  • DerWotanDerWotan Member Posts: 1,012

    I could play the "we" told you so card here but I wont. Just saying sad for you that it didn't meet your expectations hopefully you'll find another game which you like in the long run.

    We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!

    "Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
    "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,905

    ...

  • minime2minime2 Member Posts: 113

    100% agree with all said . But i decided to make two charcters for exactly this reason,  so im taking my time leveling both hoping for improvements in the near future,  before i make 50 and am fully geared on both . I'm hoping that soon player bounties might be added at least on pvp servers here's hoping lol .

  • OdyssesOdysses Member Posts: 581

    I'm in the same boat as pony.  I can't believe how botched the world pvp design is.  I play on a rp-pvp server and I have come across 1 open world fight up to lvl 36.   I expected it to be very similar to WoW which I played at launch for a couple months.  Not to be too negative but I really don't think SWTOR has much longterm appeal and it will be very interesting to see if subcriber numbers drop off fast.

  • BarCrowBarCrow Member UncommonPosts: 2,195

    Originally posted by DarkPony

    That's right.

    After anticipating and defending this game very eagerly for a year or more (you are welcome to check my posting history) and after making it to max level in a very Swtor-heavy first month I am sad to say I am kind of disappointed in its long term value.

    Despite its potential and the very worthwhile first month I don't think I will play it for much longer. The main things which prevent me from having fun with it for a longer time are personal but maybe also general problems:

    - Poorly thought out and implemented world pvp;

    Things might change for the better when 1.1 gets released but as of now it is simply beyond disappointing;

    Clicking a couple of enemy tanks a day to complete your daily and weekly world pvp quests; killing players actually is detrimental to completing that objective so both factions simply "exchange" world pvp objectives in a friendly atmosphere. Very ironic since these quests are pretty much the sole incentives to seek out enemy players in the open world. ... Seek out enemy players to "click on tanks with", that is.

    Questing areas don't overlap much; on most worlds factions are playing in the same open map but in very seperate areas; No Southshore - Tarren Mill random pvp raids to stumble into.

    The peeps at Blizzard were smart enough to actually put factions in eachother's ways, (both zone and quest wise), and throughout the leveling range bar the first zones. This is sadly lacking in Swtor. During leveling your battles with either empire of republic will be mostly restricted to warzones and npc enemies out in the world. If you do encounter an enemy player out in the world, please give him directions in /say because he's probably lost.

    World pvp kills, as of now, don't even get registered or acknowledged, let alone reward valor or tokens.

    Logically all this means that even the Outlaw's Den on Tatooine is as dead as a door nail.

    I might stick around for 1.1 though, to see to what extent things will change in this regard but all in all it seems that all world pvp content was added as an afterthought. Much like crafting in WAR or AoC.

    - Fragmented game "world":

    Even though the worlds are big, open and richly detailed. And even though world <-> personal instance transitions are completely seamless, traveling between worlds or stations means staring at a long loading screen each time; so long that it breaks my attention, immersion and possibly other -ions too.

    - Uninspired design;

    Making relatively compact space stations the main hub for each faction was a very, very bad call in my opinion; it has been said before by others; these kind of artificial "shopping mall like" environments function pretty well as hubs but feel very artifical and unimmersive. Also they are lag heavy with 200+ players in your direct vicinity at prime time.

    I think that the fleet cantina music (at least on empire side) will eventually inspire people to choke small animals and maybe even family members, which really is a shame.

    - Cookie cutter themepark formula;

    Swtor is going the well trodden path of carrot-driven gameplay a little too much in my opinion; even the exploring content (datacrons and matrix cubes / shards) are based on improvement / progress driven incentives. PvP, PvE, dailies, exploring, space-on-rails; its all about gearing up and improving your stats on a regular basis.

    This cunning treadmill has proven to be one of the main pillars of success for "long term gaming" in general but sadly it is a little too apparent in SWTOR. Also because of the ...

    - Lack of gameplay alternatives;

    At max level it's either grinding the same old warzones (mostly Huttball), doing hard mode fp's, spend your 10 minutes on Ilum for quest completion each day and if you like some extra grind: doing level 50 dailies on Belsavis and Illum for "daily commendations".

    Since I am not much of an instance crawler, the things I can do out in the open world, like world pvp, harvesting, fishing, to give a few examples, are crucial.

    Sadly Swtor doesn't tap into that so much; the two main time sinks for players at max level are warzones and flashpoints; the worlds are mostly leveling content and don't play much of a role at all at level 50. So yeah, at 50 you'll spend most your time in either instances or in a shopping mall.

    IF world pvp on Ilum post 1.1. turns out to be very fun and engaging even after people did their daily, that might be a saving grace in my eyes. I'm very curious how it will pan out.

    - Final words:

    My outlook has shifted a lot; I still think its a very good game but not so much in the long run for me personally. Since the things which are important to me: world pvp, alternative open world content and immersive aspects are either lacking or disappointing.

    Some of these things might successfully be addressed soon though, rekindling my fire for this game, but as for now;

     

    /sad pony

     

     

     

    That IS one....sad....pony. I can see where you're coming from. I have a BH at 40th level and started to feel the same way. I haven't felt like playing any games for the last 4 days or so. Think I'll take it slow and level some of my alts when I do feel like playing again. Hopefully stretch it out a bit and give Bioware time for updates and other good stuff.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,617

    You really wanted the open world PvP and it wasn't handled very well... at least objectively.  On top of that ther level 50 crowd, at least on my server, is stil very small, and I think more people will cut and run when they introduce brackets.

     

    Its a very tough balance... and in the middle of my playtime I started thinking... "I've been playing this game for months in beta, and now I'm in the live game with a couple 50s, and I don't think I really need to resub until something new is added."

     

    Then I rolled a different character with a completely different playstyle and story, and it brought me back in with the prospects of PvP (when they add the new brackets).

     

    I've also chosen to roll ONLY on republic,  and when I queue I rarely get huttball.  I have 1 imperial character, and sure enough, its way more crowded, with way more high level characters focused on PvP.

     

    I never was going to sub after the first couple months, unless a ton of content was added... I haven't subbed past the 2 month mark in any game since Fallen Earth,  and I don't see myself ever doing so with any of the new releases.

     

    The only thing I really have to say is,  I'm sorry you were disappointed.  If you want to use up the rest of your time, try rolling on republic.  Hell, try rolling on republic on MY server (US server) and it might be fun to play through the content with someone else, (me)  for your remaining time!   Either way, I hope you had fun for the time you had.



  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,138

    /salute DarkPony for being so candid.  The points you raise are not actually new, others apparently came to this conclusion when reaching this same point in their gameplay experience.

    I've had a copy of the game since Christmas, but haven't broken the seal yet as I still think I want to give this title a chance to gel some. (never even tried it in beta)

    I suspect by the 6 month mark they'll have improved on many of these issues, especially PVP relevance, and that's probably when I'll give it a try.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • WikingDKWikingDK Member UncommonPosts: 50

    The same story always. Every game have it. People rush to max level, and then complai. The game is a few months old, and off course the game have to devolope over time. 

    Why is you allready lvl 50? maybe enjoy the game instead. Take some days off sometimes.

    I have played since launch, and I just dinged 20 today. 

     

  • OkhamsRazorOkhamsRazor Member Posts: 1,047

    Fair and to the point . I think the problem any mmo faces is huge expectations . ToR is what it was bound to be given it was from Bioware . I felt a lot of the time it was a traditional mmo ( not a WoW clone which is foolish term only used by those ignorant of the history of mmos )  with shade of the kind of story telling you have in Mass Effect .

    I think the problem is many mmo players are on for a quest for the next big thing and build thier expecations up way way too high .

    Theres also the problem of the investors they don't want to put up big money for something totally innovative so this ties the hands of the developers .

    I totally agree there should have been more interaction between the sides earlier on .

    For me as an RPG fan is ToR has story but it isn't something I would want to play every month but more something I would alternate with another mmo ( in my case Rift ) . Given each class has a story theres plenty to keep me interested for 6 months at least but to be honest most mmos dont hold huge long term appeal these days .

    I find myself moving from one to another when it has something interesting and new added to it like a major patch or a expansion .

    The only one I'll never return to now is WoW because I think its gone too far downhill to be even bothered with . Sadly untill WoW loses huge numbers of subs we are unlikly to see huge innovation from most new games . The problem is also every  new game is ripped to threads in online forums so this leads to nervousness from investors and makes them less likly to take chances .

    Vicious circle .

  • DarkPonyDarkPony Member Posts: 5,566

    Originally posted by DerWotan

    I could play the "we" told you so card here but I wont. Just saying sad for you that it didn't meet your expectations hopefully you'll find another game which you like in the long run.

    I still think a lot of the criticism / flak which Swtor has been getting was either premature, not based on facts or actual experience and inspired by personal bias though.

    There has been very little worthwhile criticism from people who had actually played it for a long time / made it to level 50 in beta. The little of it that actually did surface was subsequently drowned in the onslaught of unmerrited hate.

    The points in the above impression are based on my own experiences though,and I don't regret a minute of playing it or a penny spend on it. Because like I said, I did have a great first month.

     

  • TechleoTechleo Member Posts: 1,984

    Sadly I have had the same experience with Swtor as Pony. Which is irritating as hell because I love the storyline and many aspects of the game. I actually love the crafting system. I love the companions. The problem is, there are to many features missing at this point to feel like the game is fleshed out. We really only have datacrons to drive me to explore. Well that and crafting. Thank god I rarely use my companion to gather. Try playing a crafter and doing all your own gathering. Gets pretty damned exciting to find the rarer nodes. 

    In the next year, which is generally the time I give all the games I play to polish, I hope to see many new features added. Dark Pony which features would you have added if you had the choice over the next year?

  • sirchivesirchive Member UncommonPosts: 72

    The only thing that is stilling keeping me in SWTOR is that it is a great duo-ing game so it's still enjoyable when the wife and I play together.

    But I agree with all your points. What's especially bad is that all these great planet environments are intensely level segmented and, as you said, only used for a very linear leveling path. They are one-time-use story driven temporary stops which is a terrible waste.

    The best thing I can say about the stories and the cut-scenes are that it's better than watching TV. And underneath the stories is just a very mundane MMO that followed the safe and conventional path in every regard. The only thing innovative at all is the companion system (my favorite part of the game).

  • JenuvielJenuviel Member Posts: 960

    The endgame stuff is really why I've decided just to skip the game for a year or two. Literally the only part of the game I'm interested in is the story (specifically class/companion stories) . I don't enjoy pvp or raiding instances even a little bit, so it's all about the questing and leveling for me (journey stuff, rather than destination stuff). Given how cost prohibitive it must be to produce not only quest arcs with branching pathways, but fully-voiced quest arcs with branching pathways, there's just no way BioWare could conceivably produce story content quickly enough to sustain me for long. Ultimately, I decided I'd be better off giving them a significant amount of time to add stuff, work out bugs and shed some population before I pick the game up at a later date.

  • OkhamsRazorOkhamsRazor Member Posts: 1,047

    Originally posted by WikingDK

    The same story always. Every game have it. People rush to max level, and then complai. The game is a few months old, and off course the game have to devolope over time. 

    Why is you allready lvl 50? maybe enjoy the game instead. Take some days off sometimes.

    I have played since launch, and I just dinged 20 today. 

     

    Grats so did I :) I've had it since just after christmas . I've played for two- three hours a day . I think maybe some of the problem with getting to level 50 that quickly is not everyone has been in a huge rush so you dont have lots of people at max level to play the end game with .

    I cant help feelng what people would have thought when they got to max level in Vanilla WoW in month one . There were two battlegrounds available and a handful of endgame instances .

    They would have been in a similar boat .

  • tank017tank017 Member Posts: 2,192

    Originally posted by WikingDK

    The same story always. Every game have it. People rush to max level, and then complai. The game is a few months old, and off course the game have to devolope over time. 

    Why is you allready lvl 50? maybe enjoy the game instead. Take some days off sometimes.

    I have played since launch, and I just dinged 20 today. 

     

    I dont think its rushing at this point,people rush yes,but when an MMO of today is out for a month its easy to find yourself at max level.

    Todays MMO's are very easy to level and only take a month or a little over to reach end game.Ive played VERY half assed on my smuggler(mooching off my roommates account) and im at 43..

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,905

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    /salute DarkPony for being so candid.  The points you raise are not actually new, others apparently came to this conclusion when reaching this same point in their gameplay experience.

     

    This is true, I expected allof the staunch pro SWTOR folks to simply melt away in the following months. Kudos for saying what was said Pony.

    I was in beta for this game around 6 weeks in total (could have been more if I had wanted) and all I have said on these forums has been based on that... For most though it was easier to attack me and call me a 'troll' then listen. Ah well :/

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    PVP needs a lot of work, which is the main reason I haven't rushed to 50, only level 28 right now. I've been to Ilum a few times with my guild thus far, had fun, but the problem is most aren't there to actually PVP, some actually get pissed if you attack them (lame). The design needs an overhaul that promotes fighting.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • SnikzSnikz Member UncommonPosts: 120

    I feel the same way as you pony :(

    The game is good but still there are some bugs + FPS problems. Still out of all the mmo's out there this date i would choose this one over everything else. To bad this wasnt my first MMO, then i proberly would love much more :)

     

    Lets wait and see if Failcom can deliever, and GW2 is really that good, after all theese mmo's launches i really have muy doubts if it can be that good.

  • sgelsgel Member EpicPosts: 2,197

    Props to you for coming out in the open and admiting it.. knowing what people roam around this place.

    I've seen you defending the game for ages (I was on the other side)... and you've always been logical and calm.

    Hope you find something more interesting.

    ..Cake..

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,138

    Originally posted by OkhamsRazor

    Originally posted by WikingDK

    The same story always. Every game have it. People rush to max level, and then complai. The game is a few months old, and off course the game have to devolope over time. 

    Why is you allready lvl 50? maybe enjoy the game instead. Take some days off sometimes.

    I have played since launch, and I just dinged 20 today. 

     

    Grats so did I :) I've had it since just after christmas . I've played for two- three hours a day . I think maybe some of the problem with getting to level 50 that quickly is not everyone has been in a huge rush so you dont have lots of people at max level to play the end game with .

    I cant help feelng what people would have thought when they got to max level in Vanilla WoW in month one . There were two battlegrounds available and a handful of endgame instances .

    They would have been in a similar boat .

    As I recall there were actually no BG's in WOW at launch, took at least 3-4 months for them to make an appearance.

    And those end game instances were difficult, at start they were 20 man raids that eventually scaled down to 5 man instances.

    And at least on my server, we actually spent a lot of time raiding Tauren Mills or the Barrens and battled each other furiously across the realms. 

    The enemy never passed you by in open world PVP and there were some horde guilds I really grew to hate (Fortis comes to mind) as they relentlessly ganked you on sight.

    Also we used to run end game raids on enemy cities....we'd roll into a capital and do our best to kill auctionhouse NPC's, and other key targets.

    It was never dull as I recall, and you are correct, it took a lot longer to level up, despite playing a lot from Nov onwards, it was 16 days played to get my Pally up to level 50...and my results were not atypical.

    These are what people talk about when they say they miss Vanilla WOW (as it's nothing like this today)

    Unfortunately it looks like Bioware modeled SWTOR on the current design of WOW, hence the dissatisfaction we see here in this thread.

     

     

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • DarkPonyDarkPony Member Posts: 5,566

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    You really wanted the open world PvP and it wasn't handled very well... at least objectively.  On top of that ther level 50 crowd, at least on my server, is stil very small, and I think more people will cut and run when they introduce brackets.

     

    Its a very tough balance... and in the middle of my playtime I started thinking... "I've been playing this game for months in beta, and now I'm in the live game with a couple 50s, and I don't think I really need to resub until something new is added."

     

    Then I rolled a different character with a completely different playstyle and story, and it brought me back in with the prospects of PvP (when they add the new brackets).

     

    I've also chosen to roll ONLY on republic,  and when I queue I rarely get huttball.  I have 1 imperial character, and sure enough, its way more crowded, with way more high level characters focused on PvP.

     

    I never was going to sub after the first couple months, unless a ton of content was added... I haven't subbed past the 2 month mark in any game since Fallen Earth,  and I don't see myself ever doing so with any of the new releases.

     

    The only thing I really have to say is,  I'm sorry you were disappointed.  If you want to use up the rest of your time, try rolling on republic.  Hell, try rolling on republic on MY server (US server) and it might be fun to play through the content with someone else, (me)  for your remaining time!   Either way, I hope you had fun for the time you had.

    Good advise. And I might do that, Weasel. Thanks :) I do love my class though (operative) and will be playing a bit more casually for some time and see what 1.1 will bring us.

    @people debunking my post due to me being level 50: I've played it since prelaunch, never rushed, grinded or exploited xp and always finished listening to the voice overs in my main storyline. Even though I spent a lot of time on Swtor, I am nowhere near a unique snowflake; plenty of 50's everywhere on my server.

  • IkedaIkeda Member RarePosts: 2,751

    I whole heartedly understand.  The most recent patch the other day dropped my FPS to almost nothing.  So, feeling the SAME way as you, PLUS not being able to have decent FPS... yea.  They get 90 days from me but damn if I find myself logging into other things instead of SW.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Originally posted by DarkPony

     

    Good advise. And I might do that, Weasel. Thanks :) I do love my class though (operative) and will be playing a bit more casually for some time and see what 1.1 will bring us.

    @people debunking my post due to me being level 50: I've played it since prelaunch, never rushed, grinded or exploited xp and always finished listening to the voice overs in my main storyline. Even though I spent a lot of time on Swtor, I am nowhere near a unique snowflake; plenty of 50's everywhere on my server.

    Only one person said anything about that :P.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • JakdstripperJakdstripper Member RarePosts: 2,408

    i can't even get myself to reach level 50.....:O....it's kind of shocker for me. i've started like 6 or 7 chars but nothing grabed me. haven't gotten anything past level 25. nothing feels fresh or interesting. it's like i've played all this, 100 times before, in way more interesting games...

    i dunno maybe it's just mmo burnout or just not that much into the Star WArs universe but this game just doesn't have any excitement factor to it. i still log in every once in a wile to do a few BGs and the odd quests but i just can't seem to get into it for more then an hour or so. so many rails, so little freedom, so repetitive, so shallow, so brainless, so easy, so boring....

     

    meh, maybe it's just me. doubt i'm going to resub to this game for long.

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