RP is just one of those things that's not going to happen. You can't 'force' it because that goes against the comfort level of most players. No one wants to be forced to play a game someone else's way. It's hard enough to tell people they have to be in vent, can you imagine telling people they have to RP? The only people that wouldn't mind are the ones you wouldn't have force in the first place.
For the better majority, it never worked. People keep blaming the companies who made the games, but I disagree. I've been playing MMOs since the original Ultima Online was brand new, and a very huge portion of the games that have come out since then, and I've NEVER seen role playing to be a socially accepted standard. True, there were more guilds around that tried to work it into their gameplay back in the day, but 'more' doesn't equate to a standard. Everyone else around them still looked at them like they were sitting at the awkward nerd table.
Role play has a stigma attached, probably because the majority of role players are terrible at it, and resort to cliches (the slut, the emo, the badass, the saint) that make people roll their eyes. But then that's how it always was...those role playing PnP sessions were never something you sit out on your porch and do in front of various people walking by. It was a basement experience with a group of people you can trust not to poke fun at you for saying something stupid. MMOs may exist online, and you may be playing them alone in the dark, but you are still surrounded by other people and it is, generally, not an intimate experience. What else did you expect?
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
For the record, I used to be a jock and an outdoorsman. I was a 200 pound stud who could compete and finish in the upper half of any and all events at the NFL Combines.
Then I became a Roleplayer, chugged Dew instead of beer, ate chips and pizza instead of steak and eggs, grew fat and got rotten teeth, and moved into my mother's basement.
Spot on with the "single player mmorpg"! To have good roleplaying players need a reason to interact and that usually means to rely on players. The modern MMOs have done a good job at removing the time consuming tasks like travelling to a dungeon, finding a group and etc. This speeds up aquiring of xp, gold and drops but removes potential roleplaying opportunities.
RP is just one of those things that's not going to happen. You can't 'force' it because that goes against the comfort level of most players. No one wants to be forced to play a game someone else's way. It's hard enough to tell people they have to be in vent, can you imagine telling people they have to RP? The only people that wouldn't mind are the ones you wouldn't have force in the first place.
For the better majority, it never worked. People keep blaming the companies who made the games, but I disagree. I've been playing MMOs since the original Ultima Online was brand new, and a very huge portion of the games that have come out since then, and I've NEVER seen role playing to be a socially accepted standard. True, there were more guilds around that tried to work it into their gameplay back in the day, but 'more' doesn't equate to a standard. Everyone else around them still looked at them like they were sitting at the awkward nerd table.
Role play has a stigma attached, probably because the majority of role players are terrible at it, and resort to cliches (the slut, the emo, the badass, the saint) that make people roll their eyes. But then that's how it always was...those role playing PnP sessions were never something you sit out on your porch and do in front of various people walking by. It was a basement experience with a group of people you can trust not to poke fun at you for saying something stupid. MMOs may exist online, and you may be playing them alone in the dark, but you are still surrounded by other people and it is, generally, not an intimate experience. What else did you expect?
What you're saying is true, but I do see the games as a cause as well as the players. UO had a lot more Roleplaying because it was such a Sandbox, and allowed the players to run events of all kinds instead of the game dictating what you do next through quests for levels and gear.
One of the problems with the player aspect was that the two sides had to fight about it. And the stigma aspect of it has sealed the fate of Roleplay as the loser. But when I ran accross players who wanted to mock my Roleplay, I always made an effort to ignore that and turn them. Like so....
NonRPer: "Are these MOB's tough?"
Me: Aye sir. But they are weak when put to the sword, if you can heal thyself enough to get past their magical attacks."
NonRPer: "Roleplayers suck."
Me: "Eh? I'm not sure what you mean, (name, regardless of how non-Roleplay it is), but we can sure use your sword here. Will you join us?"
NonRPer: "Aye, I think I will."
That sort of thing happened a lot more than not. Unfortunately, most RPers didn't take that tact and instead reverted to slinging insults back. Few of these people would join our RP guild, but they were polite in saying no "it's just not my thing". And that worked fine for both.
As a jock I'm threatened by your superior imaginations, and I struggle with a fear that associating with you in any form beyond ridicule and violence will somehow make me gay.
Not that being gay is wrong, but I've seen naked dudes before and there is nothing flattering about any of that.
This article is as good as my dog catching flies: he gets them all!!
But you know Mr. Coyote, theres basically no real need to role-play in games anymore. The new-coming generation of gamers are a bunch of fast-eating-fast-learning-fast-everything plastic kiddos, that want eveything done fast and with the minimum impact on their precious time, yes, because you know they cant really do all the stuff they need to do during their so busy lifes and still having to pretend they are a character in a fantasy game they are playing.
Of course the gaming industry realises what is happening, the days of the "fantasy" role-player are at their end, and slowly but surely we are seing a change on how the developers see the future of this genre, not the "rpg" in the mmorpg, but more like the "dif" in mmodif (massive multiplayer online do it fast). Proof of this is the constant dumbing down of classic mmorpgs, the faster learning curves of new and old mmos alike, the spoon fed content, the "lead-me-through-the-map" quest system, the "i-dont-need-to-group-in-order-to-reach-cap" quest leveling system....if people dont see it, they are blind...if they see it, dont agree with it but do nothing and buy dumbed-down mmorpgs, they are the ones to blame.
...i do thank our dear Lord that "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy was directed by Peter Jackson and not by some young padawan...i think we would get a 30 min movie with Gandalf fighting the Balrog, battle of helms deep, gandalf riding eagles and thats it, fast fast fast, and hey?...whos that small guy with an axe and that fellow with the little pinty ears??...ah, who cares? i just want to kill some orcs...
They're even better in every aspect. I don't recall seeing mobs next to the road waiting to be killed in Oblivion.. Quests are usually more diverse, stories are better. Etc.
Well - primarily because you can't actually role-play (in the context meant by the article) without other people around to do it with. Until AI gets to the point where it can respond to a player's actions as a human could, role-playing is exclusively a multiplayer event.
RPG in the context of single player computer games is a description of expected mechanics or genre (i.e. FPS, RTS, Strategy, etc.), having nothing to do with actual Role Playing Games.
But the statement I was referring to is that no one role plays or even interacts with other players anymore. A statement I think is true by the way.
So all these mmorpg players could just as well go play singleplayer RPG's.
What you're saying is true, but I do see the games as a cause as well as the players. UO had a lot more Roleplaying because it was such a Sandbox, and allowed the players to run events of all kinds instead of the game dictating what you do next through quests for levels and gear.
One of the problems with the player aspect was that the two sides had to fight about it. And the stigma aspect of it has sealed the fate of Roleplay as the loser. But when I ran accross players who wanted to mock my Roleplay, I always made an effort to ignore that and turn them. Like so....
NonRPer: "Are these MOB's tough?"
Me: Aye sir. But they are weak when put to the sword, if you can heal thyself enough to get past their magical attacks."
NonRPer: "Roleplayers suck."
Me: "Eh? I'm not sure what you mean, (name, regardless of how non-Roleplay it is), but we can sure use your sword here. Will you join us?"
NonRPer: "Aye, I think I will."
That sort of thing happened a lot more than not. Unfortunately, most RPers didn't take that tact and instead reverted to slinging insults back. Few of these people would join our RP guild, but they were polite in saying no "it's just not my thing". And that worked fine for both.
I swear sometimes it's like UO was the LAST real online Roleplaying Game ever made. It's the only game I've ever played where I can remember people actually doing it.
Maybe if they make a sequel, or RG's latest project pans out to be anything like UO, we'll see it again.
I swear sometimes it's like UO was the LAST real online Roleplaying Game ever made. It's the only game I've ever played where I can remember people actually doing it.
Maybe if they make a sequel, or RG's latest project pans out to be anything like UO, we'll see it again.
Great article, Coyote!
Nah, Biowares Neverwinter nights had plenty of hardcore RP servers and even if they just had 64 players on at the same time it was still a multiplayer RPG.
Those servers actually had GMs online all the time and they kicked people for not RPing.
Those servers actually had GMs online all the time and they kicked people for not RPing.
All a question of scale. You can't do effective active enforcement when you're the sole cop in football stadium worth of people.
From the company's point of view, they're taking the more profitable path.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The greatest role players are given a role that they mold into their own personality. Role playing has little to do with being free to do anything. Any true role playing game will have constraints. Be it from the society in which the universe takes place, from other characters, or from the game itself. The challenge lies in being able to accept these constraints and still allow the personality for your character to shine.
The people that complain that "themeparks" do not allow them to role play are really just terrible role players. Or lazy. I do not need a "sandbox" to role play in. All I need is a role.
I've always used rp as an outlet for my love of fantasy and acting. I still rp a lot in WoW even after having played the game on and off for five or so years. However, I would be lying if I said the experience was always an enjoyable one.
The one big problem I see with rp in MMO's (and just to be clear I'm mainly using WoW as an example here) is that most people tend to put their wants and needs far above everyone else's. Some folks are appalled by the mere thought of their character dying in rp so they just automatically expect anyone they fight to let them win (and resort to godmoding and insults when they don't get their way).
Other people only rp to be the center of attention, they give their character superficial traits and abilities that they think are "cute" or "unique" without giving a second thought to their character's background or developement.
And yes there are plenty of trolls and jerks who live to ruin a roleplayer's day and sadly our /ignore lists are way too small to hold them all.
I guess my point is that as long as there is such a large part of the rp community rp'ing for the wrong reasons than rp will continue to be viewed as some sort of stigma and not as a legitimate activity within a game genre that has "RPG" as part of its title.
Great article, Coyote. Glad to see that so many people agree with you and want a real mmorpg for roleplayers as well.
I think our main problem these days is no developer cares about roleplayers anymore. Games are made with leet kiddies and people who only care about number crunching in mind.
I realize that monitoring roleplaying activity takes a lot of resources for a game company, and have been saying for a long time, that I'm ready to pay double the price of a subscription fee only to be able to play a game made for roleplayers with customer service actually supporting roleplayers and MONITORING abuse, wrong names and such...
"Only in quiet waters do things mirror themselves undistorted. Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world." Hans Margolius
Ugh. The sheer amount of stereotyping in this article is offensive. There are more people who enjoy roleplaying than just basement-dwelling nerds.
I hear ya.
Fat people can drive a Camaro to.
"But before you stop reading this article and resume your life of ab crunches and roofie-ing girls in the back of your tricked-out, cherry red Iroc Z28"
Get some humour please, I'm offended by people who easily get offended.
Preach it, Coyote! I used to play pen and paper, and I have yet to find an MMO that I can roleplay with others mostly because of the obstacles you mentioned. It just doesn't work for me in an MMO setting, but it could. Given the right MMO and the right players.
Also, I'm borrowing this from now on:
Always keep in mind the until now unwritten RP law of: If you can’t create, don’t scribble on someone else’s drawing.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Second: I played LOTRO on EU RP Server Laurelin (now under Turbine... sigh) and me and my Kinship members did often RP. And our wasn't the only one: there was (i stopped to play this game 2 years ago) thousand RP kinships
3th: RP is dead, if people doesn't like do it. And seems that farming and having biggest sword is more important.
4th:: But there should be forever brave RP players now and forever. So or you kill them all or RP is still alive. Now and forever.
I'm sorry, but almost everyone here is missing the most glaringly obvious reason why people don't roleplay in MMOs.
They Can't.
IT WILL NEVER BE POSSIBLE TO ROLEPLAY IF YOUR ACTIONS CANNOT HAVE ANY SUSTAINED IMPACT ON OTHER PEOPLE OR THE WORLD AROUND YOU.
When someone makes a game where your choices affect more than just you, then roleplaying will no longer be something that you have to "try to do." It will happen just by playing the game.
Comments
RP is just one of those things that's not going to happen. You can't 'force' it because that goes against the comfort level of most players. No one wants to be forced to play a game someone else's way. It's hard enough to tell people they have to be in vent, can you imagine telling people they have to RP? The only people that wouldn't mind are the ones you wouldn't have force in the first place.
For the better majority, it never worked. People keep blaming the companies who made the games, but I disagree. I've been playing MMOs since the original Ultima Online was brand new, and a very huge portion of the games that have come out since then, and I've NEVER seen role playing to be a socially accepted standard. True, there were more guilds around that tried to work it into their gameplay back in the day, but 'more' doesn't equate to a standard. Everyone else around them still looked at them like they were sitting at the awkward nerd table.
Role play has a stigma attached, probably because the majority of role players are terrible at it, and resort to cliches (the slut, the emo, the badass, the saint) that make people roll their eyes. But then that's how it always was...those role playing PnP sessions were never something you sit out on your porch and do in front of various people walking by. It was a basement experience with a group of people you can trust not to poke fun at you for saying something stupid. MMOs may exist online, and you may be playing them alone in the dark, but you are still surrounded by other people and it is, generally, not an intimate experience. What else did you expect?
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
For the record, I used to be a jock and an outdoorsman. I was a 200 pound stud who could compete and finish in the upper half of any and all events at the NFL Combines.
Then I became a Roleplayer, chugged Dew instead of beer, ate chips and pizza instead of steak and eggs, grew fat and got rotten teeth, and moved into my mother's basement.
Once upon a time....
Is it not 'Know' rather than 'No'?.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
What you're saying is true, but I do see the games as a cause as well as the players. UO had a lot more Roleplaying because it was such a Sandbox, and allowed the players to run events of all kinds instead of the game dictating what you do next through quests for levels and gear.
One of the problems with the player aspect was that the two sides had to fight about it. And the stigma aspect of it has sealed the fate of Roleplay as the loser. But when I ran accross players who wanted to mock my Roleplay, I always made an effort to ignore that and turn them. Like so....
NonRPer: "Are these MOB's tough?"
Me: Aye sir. But they are weak when put to the sword, if you can heal thyself enough to get past their magical attacks."
NonRPer: "Roleplayers suck."
Me: "Eh? I'm not sure what you mean, (name, regardless of how non-Roleplay it is), but we can sure use your sword here. Will you join us?"
NonRPer: "Aye, I think I will."
That sort of thing happened a lot more than not. Unfortunately, most RPers didn't take that tact and instead reverted to slinging insults back. Few of these people would join our RP guild, but they were polite in saying no "it's just not my thing". And that worked fine for both.
Once upon a time....
As a jock I'm threatened by your superior imaginations, and I struggle with a fear that associating with you in any form beyond ridicule and violence will somehow make me gay.
Not that being gay is wrong, but I've seen naked dudes before and there is nothing flattering about any of that.
This article is as good as my dog catching flies: he gets them all!!
But you know Mr. Coyote, theres basically no real need to role-play in games anymore. The new-coming generation of gamers are a bunch of fast-eating-fast-learning-fast-everything plastic kiddos, that want eveything done fast and with the minimum impact on their precious time, yes, because you know they cant really do all the stuff they need to do during their so busy lifes and still having to pretend they are a character in a fantasy game they are playing.
Of course the gaming industry realises what is happening, the days of the "fantasy" role-player are at their end, and slowly but surely we are seing a change on how the developers see the future of this genre, not the "rpg" in the mmorpg, but more like the "dif" in mmodif (massive multiplayer online do it fast). Proof of this is the constant dumbing down of classic mmorpgs, the faster learning curves of new and old mmos alike, the spoon fed content, the "lead-me-through-the-map" quest system, the "i-dont-need-to-group-in-order-to-reach-cap" quest leveling system....if people dont see it, they are blind...if they see it, dont agree with it but do nothing and buy dumbed-down mmorpgs, they are the ones to blame.
...i do thank our dear Lord that "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy was directed by Peter Jackson and not by some young padawan...i think we would get a 30 min movie with Gandalf fighting the Balrog, battle of helms deep, gandalf riding eagles and thats it, fast fast fast, and hey?...whos that small guy with an axe and that fellow with the little pinty ears??...ah, who cares? i just want to kill some orcs...
But the statement I was referring to is that no one role plays or even interacts with other players anymore. A statement I think is true by the way.
So all these mmorpg players could just as well go play singleplayer RPG's.
I swear sometimes it's like UO was the LAST real online Roleplaying Game ever made. It's the only game I've ever played where I can remember people actually doing it.
Maybe if they make a sequel, or RG's latest project pans out to be anything like UO, we'll see it again.
Great article, Coyote!
Nah, Biowares Neverwinter nights had plenty of hardcore RP servers and even if they just had 64 players on at the same time it was still a multiplayer RPG.
Those servers actually had GMs online all the time and they kicked people for not RPing.
All a question of scale. You can't do effective active enforcement when you're the sole cop in football stadium worth of people.
From the company's point of view, they're taking the more profitable path.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Thumbs up to this article.
Fellow veteran roleplayer.
I enjoy you Coyote.
Keep on keepin on.
The greatest role players are given a role that they mold into their own personality. Role playing has little to do with being free to do anything. Any true role playing game will have constraints. Be it from the society in which the universe takes place, from other characters, or from the game itself. The challenge lies in being able to accept these constraints and still allow the personality for your character to shine.
The people that complain that "themeparks" do not allow them to role play are really just terrible role players. Or lazy. I do not need a "sandbox" to role play in. All I need is a role.
I've always used rp as an outlet for my love of fantasy and acting. I still rp a lot in WoW even after having played the game on and off for five or so years. However, I would be lying if I said the experience was always an enjoyable one.
The one big problem I see with rp in MMO's (and just to be clear I'm mainly using WoW as an example here) is that most people tend to put their wants and needs far above everyone else's. Some folks are appalled by the mere thought of their character dying in rp so they just automatically expect anyone they fight to let them win (and resort to godmoding and insults when they don't get their way).
Other people only rp to be the center of attention, they give their character superficial traits and abilities that they think are "cute" or "unique" without giving a second thought to their character's background or developement.
And yes there are plenty of trolls and jerks who live to ruin a roleplayer's day and sadly our /ignore lists are way too small to hold them all.
I guess my point is that as long as there is such a large part of the rp community rp'ing for the wrong reasons than rp will continue to be viewed as some sort of stigma and not as a legitimate activity within a game genre that has "RPG" as part of its title.
Great article, Coyote! And your reply above had me in stitches.
Great article, Coyote. Glad to see that so many people agree with you and want a real mmorpg for roleplayers as well.
I think our main problem these days is no developer cares about roleplayers anymore. Games are made with leet kiddies and people who only care about number crunching in mind.
I realize that monitoring roleplaying activity takes a lot of resources for a game company, and have been saying for a long time, that I'm ready to pay double the price of a subscription fee only to be able to play a game made for roleplayers with customer service actually supporting roleplayers and MONITORING abuse, wrong names and such...
"Only in quiet waters do things mirror themselves undistorted.
Only in a quiet mind is adequate perception of the world."
Hans Margolius
You mean going FTP because they aren't making enough on subs?
Once upon a time....
Some peoples ability to detect sarcasm is low, while with others...its non-existent.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Ugh. The sheer amount of stereotyping in this article is offensive. There are more people who enjoy roleplaying than just basement-dwelling nerds.
I hear ya.
Fat people can drive a Camaro to.
"But before you stop reading this article and resume your life of ab crunches and roofie-ing girls in the back of your tricked-out, cherry red Iroc Z28"
Get some humour please, I'm offended by people who easily get offended.
Preach it, Coyote! I used to play pen and paper, and I have yet to find an MMO that I can roleplay with others mostly because of the obstacles you mentioned. It just doesn't work for me in an MMO setting, but it could. Given the right MMO and the right players.
Also, I'm borrowing this from now on:
Always keep in mind the until now unwritten RP law of: If you can’t create, don’t scribble on someone else’s drawing.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
First at all: i totally agree with Fadedbomb
Second: I played LOTRO on EU RP Server Laurelin (now under Turbine... sigh) and me and my Kinship members did often RP. And our wasn't the only one: there was (i stopped to play this game 2 years ago) thousand RP kinships
3th: RP is dead, if people doesn't like do it. And seems that farming and having biggest sword is more important.
4th:: But there should be forever brave RP players now and forever. So or you kill them all or RP is still alive. Now and forever.
My blog about (no more)MMORPG Addicted - a bog about videogames, cinema, politics and other things (in Italian)
I'm sorry, but almost everyone here is missing the most glaringly obvious reason why people don't roleplay in MMOs.
They Can't.
IT WILL NEVER BE POSSIBLE TO ROLEPLAY IF YOUR ACTIONS CANNOT HAVE ANY SUSTAINED IMPACT ON OTHER PEOPLE OR THE WORLD AROUND YOU.
When someone makes a game where your choices affect more than just you, then roleplaying will no longer be something that you have to "try to do." It will happen just by playing the game.
This is classic...and sad at the same time.
Oh, and I agree with the article. Deleting mmoRPG.com from my bookmarks now.