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World of Warcraft: Slain by the Sith?



  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564

    Originally posted by BillMurphy

    Hey folks,

    If you read the article closely, you'll realize that Joe's actually stating that WoW won't be killed by SWTOR, despite how well BioWare's game may or may not do.



    The "theme" of the article ("will TOR kill WoW") seems to be an excuse to have yet another MMORPG.com piece extoling and hyping TOR itself, to be honest. On the whole, it most definitely reads like a pro-TOR article, written under the pretense of being about WoW.

    I mean, starting with the title, the article is filled with statements about all his friends in WoW leaving, a portrait of Deathwing whose caption indicates TOR as the biggest threat to Azeroth... and myriad other similar statements. All basically placing TOR on a pedestal, despite the author claiming to have zero interest in it.

    Not 'til the end of the article does he get around to saying "naw, I guess WoW will be around for a while anyway, 'cause people still feel passionately about it". 

    Well, yeah. Was that ever seriously in question?

    I don't think anyone here ("wishful thinkers" notwithstanding) seriously expects TOR to "kill WoW". WoW will continue on for quite a while with a massive playerbase on its momentum alone. That's not even delving in to the myriad other reasons individuals might have to continue playing.

    TOR is still the new kid in the room, as flashy and pretty and popular it might be. It has quite the mountain to climb before it comes anywhere near "killing WoW" on any objective or meaningful level.

    To me, the article reads more like yet another MMORPG.com TOR hype piece, that uses the whole "will it kill WoW" question as a rhetorical question to base it around.  It would be nice to see an article here on MMORPG.com putting it proper perspective, rather than shamelessly drooling and fawning over it as y'all have been. 

    I'm still waiting for that "other side of the coin" to show up. So far it's been entirely 1-sided.

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops


  • OkhamsRazorOkhamsRazor Member Posts: 1,047

    I'm having the best time I've had in an mmo since WoW Vanilla . ToR is a breath of fresh air because it really is putting the RPG back into mmorpg .

    It depends what you would call a WoW killer .

    a) Is it a game that has to finnish off WoW altogether ? .then no after all theres still no Ultima Online killer is there . WoW will most likly be around is some form and with a lot less people in 10 years time .

    b) Is it a game that deal a significant body blow to WoW and steals a heavy number of subs ( say 2-4 million ) then theres a strong possibility ToR could be the WoWkiller .

    c) Is it a game that overtakes WoW in terms of the amount of subs it has ?  Well ToR could quite easily do that in the west in the coming months . I've heard WoW has something between 4-5 million players in the EU and NA . ( thats only from estimates I've seen in these forums ) when you consider that ToR sold 1.6 million in its first week and analysts are projecting 3 -4 million units sold by March it doesn't seem quite so unfeasable . It would take releases in Russia and China to follow suit .

    I've also heard the arguement most people will give up after month 1 . My experiance if thats likly to happen you would see general chat full of complaints about the game but you just don't .

    Some people think huge numbers will give up when they've finnished the storyline . Well the storylines are engaging enough for lots of people to want to play through all the classes . Also ToR has what other games have in terms of endgame thats not stopped people subbing to WoW for years has it .

    The problem for Blizzard is that it has become very complacent . The people at the top appear to be make some cataclysmic errors of judgement . Panda-gate proved they were out of touch . The game has also been losing subs prior to ToR offering an attractive alternative . Also on top of this there are plenty of other new and interesting mmos in development that may take even more people from WoW .

    It probably won't go down without a fight they will most likly move the goal posts and declare levels 1-60 free to play and continue to count the free to play accounts as subscriptions .

    Whatever happens expect further and larger loses in 2012 .Personally I don't think ToR will overtake it this year simply because its unlikly to be released in China and Russia till 2013 .

    But eventually if you agree option b or c to be a definition of WoWkiller then it has every chance .


  • red_cruiserred_cruiser Member UncommonPosts: 485

    The part where you talk about competition fueling innovation and how SW:TOR contributes absolutely nothing for Bilzzard to even consider is really the key indicator to me that SW:TOR's spot on the top of the pile is going to be pretty short lived. 

  • PukeBucketPukeBucket Member Posts: 867

    WoW Clone < WoW Killer

    TOR transforms that simple bit of math into a law.

    I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  • GolelornGolelorn Member RarePosts: 1,392

    This game has been out 2 weeks. Let's see if it can retain subscribers past 3 months. I'm going with a "not likely".

  • Ambros123Ambros123 Member Posts: 877

    Hey Mods... how bout closing this thread as there have been numerous threads over n over n over about this.

    Unless you only do that to threads that talk negatively about your precious MMO like numerous thread closing that ya'll have done already.

  • Tr3izeTr3ize Member Posts: 35

    Originally posted by Dracondis

    SWTOR has to worry about it's IP.  THey can't make it mainstream enough to kill WoW without sacrificing the established storyline.  And they can't invent new lore willy-nilly like Blizzard does because the stroy is well established, and we've already seen how badly it gets rejected by fans when someone, even the original author, creates new lore that doesn't jive with established lore.  Sure there are enough small points that can be expounded on for SWTOR to add things, but they already lost me with the Sith being playable ("Always two there are: one master and one apprentice"...  So what do we do with the other 3 million Sith Warriors over here that will kill the story between Chapters 3 and 4?)  

    You clearly need to check up on the lore, the rule of 2 wasn't implemented by the True Sith empire, it was implemented by Darth Bane.



  • WarzenWarzen Member Posts: 5

    Make this as simple as I can.

    WoW = WAS fun

    SWTOR = IS fun

    as time and new releases come out something else will come along and SWTOR will become a WAS fun... All things pass, play what you like and be open to new things.

  • SkuzSkuz Member UncommonPosts: 1,017

    Should call this site MMORPG trollbait .com

    Even the articles are trolling as much as the readership these days /sarcasm off.

    I don't think Blizzard are too worried, WoW has been on backburner mode for a few years, all the real talent was siphoned off to develop Titan. It's still making silly money & BioWare just has the "tourist" gamers from WoW who will in varying degrees move back to WoW in earnest, play WoW casually while going hardcore in SWTOR, play SWTOR casually while still in WoW & a few will drop WoW.

    There won't be a WoW-Killer ever I think, not even Titan may have that draw, WoW was an anomoly, probably always will have been. If WoW wanes it will be by a multitude of quality titles releasing & performing well & whittling away a portion of WoW's natural leavers, plenty of room in the market & that market will continue to grow in overall size as more people become MMO gamers.

  • LTPapaBearLTPapaBear Member Posts: 1

    Originally posted by Dracondis

    SWTOR has as much chance of killing WoW as Lady Gaga has of winning Best Dressed.  Sure, they're both pretty enough in their own way, but it isn't like either one of them will ever care enough about winning to really put forth the effort it takes.

    SWTOR has to worry about it's IP.  THey can't make it mainstream enough to kill WoW without sacrificing the established storyline.  And they can't invent new lore willy-nilly like Blizzard does because the stroy is well established, and we've already seen how badly it gets rejected by fans when someone, even the original author, creates new lore that doesn't jive with established lore.  Sure there are enough small points that can be expounded on for SWTOR to add things, but they already lost me with the Sith being playable ("Always two there are: one master and one apprentice"...  So what do we do with the other 3 million Sith Warriors over here that will kill the story between Chapters 3 and 4?)  Fortunately for BioWare, there are enough fanboys out there with self-insertion fantasies about Star Wars that they can get away with this hugely lore breaking oops, but it's still just the first step down a slippery slope in my book.


    Blizzard isn't going to die to any newcomer to the arena, either.  GW2 has more chance of killing WoW than SWTOR does.  MoP looks like an awesome concept for an expansion, and the extra content aimed at the more casual player will certainly attract people interested in such things.  Their only stumblinb block there is the subscription fee itself.  Casual content is supposed to be free, and the players who would be interested in the content as new players to WoW aren't going to view the monthly fee with eager anticipation.  Still, I don't think its something Blizzard can't overcome.





    She won best dressed. She also won worst dressed but your according to your argument SW:ToR killed WoW.

  • clankyaspclankyasp Member Posts: 213

    Sith slain by Pandas soon, if TOR lasts that long.

  • pharazonicpharazonic Member Posts: 860

    Originally posted by forest-nl


    Originally posted by Aguitha

    Can you guys wait a few months before making such crazy statement ?  I mean the game is not even a month old, peoples are still on their first free month.  Let's see how the population goes once they need to pay 15$ per month to keep playing a game that is so shallow.


    I agree and a very WEAK attemp by MMORPG.COM STAFF to another attemp to hype SWTOR its a bit SAD realy.

    Not by a longshot SWTORis comming close at moment to WoW so what are you brabbeling about MMORPG STAFF?

    So far big winner of 2011 even here on mmorpg.com(making topics yourself about a sologame) is SKYRIM way ahead of SWTOR of sold copys.

    More then 9 million copys sold of SKYRIM so far and not even digital numbers included so prolly even over 10million.


    "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

    I need to take this advice more.

  • Zeal77Zeal77 Member Posts: 158

    Pandas. lol

  • ironhelixironhelix Member Posts: 448

    I haven't played WoW in many many years, but after playing SWTOR for two weeks, I am already bored of it. There is very little to do in this game, and I hesitate to even classify it as a true MMO by my admittedly strict standards.

    Not even going to talk about the voice acting other than to say I stopped paying attention around level 30. It's hard to become invested in a story that you know a MILLION other people are currently experiencing in the exact same way. Your choices make no difference in the storyline other than to earn you points towards cosmetic items, and make you look more or less like Marilyn Manson.

    The world is completely sectioned off, and instanced to the point of having almost no cohesion whatsoever.

    The character creation and development are non existant. Your character will be EXACTLY like every other character of its class (within one of the arbitrary 3 skill trees that they just HAD to rip off from WoW).

    The graphics are subjective of course, but I find them to be pretty bad. The textures used in the environments in particualar are AWFUL. It's difficult for me to put my finger on, but the art design is just poor.

    The PvP feels almost exactly like Warhammer Online, and apparently that makes sense due to the team being comprised of some ex Mythic employees. Most of the time you will be rooted in place, or otherwise out of control of your character, especially as a melee class. This was a huge problem in WAR, and it's not any more fun here. High level PvP has the odd quirk of people NOT grouping in favor of being able to keep their companions out. which leads me to...

    Companions. Where do I begin? This is hands down the dumbest system I have ever seen in an MMO. Every player of your class is running around the world with a clone of your companion. It looks stupid, and it IS stupid. It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't absolutely REQUIRED to play the game, but they are. A system allowing you to CHOOSE from a large list of companions could have worked, but this is just absolutely rammed down your throat.

    I'll say it again: I don't play WoW, but the last time I did, it was a FAR better game than SWTOR. And that's pretty sad.


    edited for punctuation.

  • UronksurUronksur Member UncommonPosts: 310

    Originally posted by Shivam

    Originally posted by Toto020

    It's called journalistic intergity.  And many of the reviewers and review sites seem to lack it lately.

    Like i said in earlier post i only question journalistic integrity when they highly rate a game i dislike otherwise i have no problems as long as they give high scores to games i love.

    Someone disagreeing with you is grounds for doubting their integrity? Seriously?

  • PorlekPorlek Member Posts: 9

    There is one huge difference to SW:TOR that other "WoW-killers" didn't have, that is a huge existing following of the Star Wars universe.  I bought and am playing the game after having enjoyed WoW for a long time and am so absorbed in TOR that, though I am keeping my WoW subscription, I have barely been on WoW.

    I am making new friends in TOR and with each class storyline so interesting then when I level my first toon to 50 - no matter how the end game plays - I'll be moving onto rolling a new class.

    I have enjoyed WoW and I'm sure I will enjoy it again before it dies, but time moves on and nothing lives forever.  Will there be one big WoW killer?  Probably not, more like lots of other games that people disappear off to play as WoW looks more and more archaic and goes free to play before eventually disappearing.

    It doesn't mean people don't like it.  I still like Pac Man, doesn't mean I sit playing it for hours at a time.

  • UNH0LYEV1LUNH0LYEV1L Member UncommonPosts: 493
    I don't understand this. I loved WoW for a long time but grew tired of it. MMOs in general are super stale and SWTOR is no exception. I leveled to 50 and didn't enjoy the journey. I played with friends and while at first it was cool new and fresh the game got boring as hell we stoped watching every cut scene and grew pissed when new quests showed up as they were all the same. Once at 50 the the operations were kind of fun but its all the same crap. If you have raided in ANY game before this game is no different. Figure out the dance then execute it and win...so boring.
    ProbablyGettingNerfed - L100 - Witch - Path of Exile
  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916

    "WoW was not as good as SWTOR at launch" (not sure who said that :( )

    I completely agree. TOR is way more polished and had a much better launch overall. But playing TOR for the first time didn't even come close to my excitement when I played WoW for the first time. I loved playing WoW when it first came out. Hell, I thought I was playing the best game ever. I played all the way to level 60 and didn't have a single boring moment. Then I leveled another two level 60 characters before starting the end-game and I had so much fun.

    TOR just pales in comparison to vanilla WoW for me. 

    For the record...WoW was not my first MMO yet it was the most fun for me.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • carebear77carebear77 Member Posts: 86

    Seriously .... Do u still play wow ???

    why , its very old and has a horrble battle system. the quests are uber grindy and the graphix ancient. Story driven MMO FTW !!  anything but wow FTW !

    {mod edit}

  • grunt187grunt187 Member CommonPosts: 956

    Originally posted by clankyasp

    Sith slain by Pandas soon, if TOR lasts that long.

    You do know they can both do well at the same time, one does not need to fail for the other to do well.image

    The following statement is false
    The previous statement is true

  • Rusty715Rusty715 Member Posts: 482

    I started WOW in the fall of 2005, dont recall the month but it was sept. or later. Even starting the game that far after launch there were still Q's to get onto the Hellscream server and my son in law played on Thrall server and said it was the same there as well. I dont know how many servers they had at that time but it was a lot. Wil lbe interesting to see how many servers TOR has a year after launch and if they are as packed as the WOW servers were after the same period of time. Somehow, I dont see it happening.

    Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.

  • KniknaxKniknax Member UncommonPosts: 576

    Lol, so I take it WoW was your first MMO, and your under the age of 25? :)

    You will always be nostalgic for your first MMO, this is why (and hopefully you finally understand) those of us who remember constantly chat about UO, AC and EQ with such fondess, to the incomprehension of you wipper snapper WoW players :)

    WoW is, and always will be, essentially, a rip off of all that was good from those before it. Thats not to say it was a bad game, but it was not the best, and it was not the first. And SWTOR is good, but again, its also not the best and not the first.

    Oh, and theres more innovation in Swtor than just cutscenes, but you wouldnt know that, having vowed "NEVER TO PLAY IT!!!!" in your dramatic way. Which is a shame for an MMO reviewer working for an MMO webzine. You might want to try branching out a bit, you know, in the spirit of comparison journalism ;) Or did they not teach that at writers college anymore :D

    "When people don't know much about something, they tend to fill in the blanks the way they want them to be filled in. They are almost always disappointed." - Will Wright

  • camil82camil82 Member UncommonPosts: 50

    hi everyone,

    happy new year to all at first. i wanted just to say i wonder why so many bother with SWTOR if you dont like the game

    dont play it its just that simple, second we are going every time over and over in almost every new thread like

    "swtor just another clone of wow and etc" i think this people are slowly getting out of their arguments and they dont know what to do anymore and are just writting same threads again and again over same themes.

    most players or people forget the fact that MMOS existed on markets before wow was even realesed on market, if we would look back on how many games WOW took its gameplay and ideas for game than most would see what is a clone in reality.

    next thing is wowo is getting its new patch the pandas, then guys if you would look at this and see how many downhills it has that would be great to write about it.

    swtor might have token some ideas from someone, but if we look honestly at every game you will hardly find a game tahat didnt took some ideas froma another game, just some people arent realistic about it and find always comments to trash other games.

  • Aison2Aison2 Member CommonPosts: 624

    Originally posted by carebear77

    Seriously .... Do u still play wow ???

    why , its very old and has a horrble battle system. the quests are uber grindy and the graphix ancient. Story driven MMO FTW !!  anything but wow FTW !

    {mod edit}

    {mod edit}


    tbh its to early to tell how soon swtor will burn.  Don't misunderstand the lvling with story is quite nice but once trough there is no reason to stay subbed. So if they don't deliver endgame while people are lvling it will be sooner. Regardless of that I think many wow players will play trough story and switch back to wow with mop for new content. What is unknown is how big the ex-wow % is in the swtor playerbase.

    Pi*1337/100 = 42

  • niteflynitefly Member Posts: 340

    I agree with the basic premise of the article: The one established themepark MMORPG will not be outdone by yet another themepark MMORPG. Right now the industry is basically just waiting for the next innovator to come to the market so that the mould can be broken for good.

    For years the releases of MMORPGs have been following the tried and tested WoW method in a vain attempt at becoming as successful as WoW. That will not happen if they insist on trying to be WoW.

    The elements that are WoW are as follows:

    - Characters based around static elements (Class/Race/Spec/Level) -

    No freedom is given to the players, and no, Talents aren't freedom. Look at games like Ultima, Star Wars: Galaxies, or Dungeons & Dragons: Online. Levels aren't the caveat but they sure are a straight jacket and leads directly to the next element.

    - Sectioned off gameworld based on illogical "borders" -

    In these kind of games you have zones where low-level Characters can go and others where they absolutely cannot go (or only at the risk of death). The threat is not based on size of beast og type of villain, it is based on the fact that when you cross this (often very visible) line, a simple beast will now be more powerful than the King of the Beasts in the other zone. Why don't they migrate?

    - Static world with no playergenerated content -

    The world only changes with content patches or expansions. Why is that? In Vanguard: Saga of Heroes you could build a town right in the game world. Right in the game world! Making each server potentially unique all based on guild activity. Some other games like EverQuest2, Age of Conan, and Lord of the Rings: Online have sectioned off instances where this content is placed but why not go all the way?

    - Questing as major progression route -

    Go to NPC A. Do chore B. Earn reward C. Repeat until max level. Always with ONE possible solution. No player involvement, no challenge just an endless grind. A few ideas for alternate progression: Crafting, diplomacy, building a town/city, orchestrating the defense of said settlement, spending time playing an instrument in a social setting/concert, exploring, raising livestock. If I had a whole "creative" department I could propably come up with more or elaborate on those 5-minute stray thoughts.

    In my opinion WoW only needs to be worried once a publisher decides to do something really outside the beaten path. Until then WoW will have been the first (not as such, they were just the ones to streamline the above and BROUGHT IT TO MARKET), the game with the most content, the largest subscriber base, and the biggest brand in the MMORPG market.

    I remember my old teacher when these discussions come up: A rule of thumb when determining if one product is vastly different than another: If you have now switched to Product B from Product A, would you switch back if the price of Product A was halved? If yes, the "new" Product B wasn't alternate enough to actually warrant the change, you just changed for change itself.

    Looking back at my track record with more than 20 AAA titles over the last 10 years I think I start to see the wisdom in his words :)

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