Originally posted by radlin lol Zax.can you say 'owned' elnator? Because you just got it with zax links showing how much Bestbuy sells AC. Think that pretty much dismisses your claim that bestbuy has always had the game everytime you ever went in there, lol.and for u to think that a awesome graphics AC, widely delivered to stores everywhere and advertized like crazy would only expand ACs subscribers by 18k out of the millions of mmorpg players around the world is completely foolish.
I'm no marketting analyst but I would venture a guess that this idea has been bandied about Turbine a couple times. You can't possibly think they haven't thought of doing this. There has GOT to be a reason why they chose not to. C'mon now... think a little: If Turbine thought they could do something like this and make it profitable to do so, why wouldn't they?
As to the search on Bestbuy I'm flat out flabbergasted that it's not up there. I distinctly remember seeing an AC box on the shelves last time I was in there and I remember seeing it last November when I was taking a break from SWG and looking for something else to try. Ended up playing WoW beta instead but hey... I did see AC on the shelf... Why it's not popping in the search engine is beyond me... But what the heck I'll go ahead and say maybe I was mistaken and saw it elsewhere and not in bestbuy... possibly at CompUSA (which is across the street, I shop at both). I'm almost positive that I saw it at Best Buy but that search is pretty convincing. No way am I going to say I HAVENT seen it on shelves though, because I have. I even joked about it with a couple friends when we were in there a while ago we were remembering our first time playing it (fondly I might add).
Open your eyes: If turbine thought a graphics update and marketting campaign would work they'd have done it. Instead they have done a RE-SKIN of the existing engine (which is CHEAP but effective) and are trying to re-market it (which I think is the more sensible solution). Hopefully AC's numbers will improve. If they do then maybe Turbine will do a major graphics overhaul though I doubt it. I think they're doing the wise move by just re-skinning things to bring the graphics up a notch or two (remember they aren't all THAT bad to begin with, they're low poly but they were never bad looking and still aren't and they just got better looking skins too) and re-marketting the game with this expansion.
I don't get why you people can't get your heads around this: Making an upgrade of this magnitude to a game this old is ***expensive*** They can't just slap old graphics on a new engine. Every single pixel of every single poly would have to be completely reworked from SCRATCH. They'd have to basically re-write the entire game on the graphics side. They'd have to re-code all the animations, movement, detail in the game.
It's a monumental project and would cost millions of dollars. Probably at LEAST 5-7 million for the development alone. Then they'd have to go into beta testing to find any holes in the environment. Remember, new engine, new terrain, new graphics. Then they'd have to release it. You're talking about a 5-10 million dollar project to upgrade a game just to give it current graphics. Is it really worth that much money to turbine on the chance that it will become a rocketting success? I honestly don't see Turbine doing this. Even if it WOULD make the game wildly successful Turbine can't afford to take the risk. They just don't have that kind of cussion laying around. Their operating profits have GOT to be massively tied up in the development of DDO and LOTR if what someone else said is true and they don't have a financial backer paying for those titles to be developed (which I find hard to believe by the way).
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by -Jaguar- So, how much has the expansion actually helped? It's day 3 and are there any extreme changes in population? I would guess before the expansion there were around 1000 players on each server at peak times (I guess because I haven't played in over a year). What's the most online these last few days and what were the pops really like before for camparison?And whoever brought up EVE doing better even when it isn't in stores is a pointless argument. EVE is so much newer than AC1. Give EVE the years to catch up with AC1 age wise and not being in stores will definetly hurt EVE in the long run.
lol. Well, I didn't pre-order the expansion because of all the hype of Sony distributing it and how wide spread it would be on retail shelves (HA!) So now, I just drove 65 miles into Oregon to buy a last copy - I had a small, independant software store hold it a couple of hours for me. I got it installed, and logged into Holtburg on the Darktide server. I was the only player in Holtburg. In about twenty minutes of travel, I saw only a handful of people... and it was peak playing time when I was on. So the population now plain out sucks.
But this goes back to two reasons that I can immediately see....
1) Most of the people who pre-ordered the game at outlets like BestBuy and a lot of EB Games outlets have still not gotten their copy delivered to them...
and mostly...
2) The game, atleast where I live at almost every department store is almost unheard of. Most stores like Target don't even know what the hell I am talking about. Walmart isn't carrying the game at all according to the manager of my Walmart store here. And he means every Walmart nationwide is not carrying the game.
Makes no sense to me. I don't understand Turbine at this point. Why would you put out an expansion and not make it available at any damn stores??? They are shooting their own foot here I would have to say. Ofcourse, they have been shooting their self in the foot with Asherons Call for many years in the Marketing aspect of their game I tend to think. But then again, I'm just a fan. And at this point - I am a very confused, and honestly sad fan of the game.
And Elnator, I understand your points about the game and not investing millions into such an old game, but as a huge fan of the game for so many years, it is simply staggering to me why Turbine doesn't do more to market this game better. It just seems to me that they could make millions more by doing something besides not having even their brand new expansion available out there. What sense does this make?
AC is a great game. It really is. Even today. I really feel that their whole marketing department for this classic needs fired. I guarantee you that I would go in there for a small fraction of what these fools are making and sell a helluva lot more copies of their damn game.
I'll echo your desire for this Zaxtor, even though I don't really think it's feasible. AC was the second MMO I played (Everquest was my first), though I spent countless years playing and developing MUDs. Most studies seem to indicate that people bond most strongly with their first MMO, basing their future perceptions on their first experience with the genre. That just wasn't the case with me. I loved what Asheron's Call offered, and that has become my basis of comparison, my gold standard, for other MMOs. I played it for four years before taking a leave of absence for two. Elements of the game were frustrating to me then (the necessity to use valuable character slots as semi-mobile banks, the fact that magic was nearly mandatory for success, etc.), and I thought perhaps some of the new games might take the things that worked and fix the things that didn't.
I've since played quite a few games with banks, auction houses, dynamic economies, etc. None of them were as enjoyable to me as AC, though. After two years playing games as varied as EVE Online (1 1/2 months), Anarchy Online (five months), World of Warcraft (five months), City of Heroes (one month), Star Wars: Galaxies (11 months), Saga of Ryzom (from launch to the big "Patch 1"), and the Matrix Online (two weeks), I find myself back where I started. None of the games I mentioned are or were terrible. Many of them were well-made, and several were even quite original. None of them emphasized the elements that made AC such a marvel to me, however.
Few games had anywhere near the amount of land to explore (let alone zone-free land), few had even remotely as many dungeons to delve, few had anywhere near the number of quests to complete, very few indeed had monthly updates of any real significance, even fewer had evolving story arcs that players could change, and none had even a fraction of the lore found in AC- books in libraries, scrolls of information in many of the quest dungeons, NPCs that told you about the world from their own racial perspective, even the chance for player-submitted stories to be published and sold at in-game bookstores, and that's not the half of it. The game's combination of a skill system and a level system really had/has a lot to do with my opinion of it, as well. As was mentioned, it does grant you some degree of instant gratification for your effort; your experience points are like currency you can spend whenever you want in order to improve your character. Genius. There was nearly infinite control over who your character was and how that character performed at every given moment through your ability to choose which attributes and skills to invest in.
I'd leap at the opportunity to play an updated version of this game. Like many others, I was really hoping AC2 would be that chance; it wasn't. When I heard that Turbine had acquired the licenses for Lord of the Rings and Dugeons and Dragons, however, I realized my hope was a fallacy, at least in the short term. They've moved on to newer, more marketable things. Unfortunately, they've left many (most?) of their original ideas behind in the process. Welcome to another world of elves, dwarves and orcs. We really needed two more. Maybe there will be an AC3, maybe there won't. If there will be, though, it won't be for quite some time. To use a film metaphor, my hope is that Turbine is making these cheesy summer blockbuster films so they can afford to make a high-quality indie film in the fall.
Originally posted by Rossalis Originally posted by Copeland Vanguard will be great for those who like the PvE thing and Irth Online is really looking promising for those who like realm pvp. In any case Turbine could shit a turnip that looks like Jesus and i wouldn't care.Hey cope, let's stop with the Turbine bashing. Magic Hat shit a Beta that looked like a turd, but you are madly in love with that.
No actually i'm not. I'm kinda tired of the whole fantasy genre its getting stale and all the companies involved are responsible for that. What i've said about Irth is that it has some great developers and great graphics. It's still too early to say anything else about it.
Originally posted by Copeland Vanguard will be great for those who like the PvE thing and Irth Online is really looking promising for those who like realm pvp. In any case Turbine could shit a turnip that looks like Jesus and i wouldn't care. Hey cope, let's stop with the Turbine bashing. Magic Hat shit a Beta that looked like a turd, but you are madly in love with that.
No actually i'm not. I'm kinda tired of the whole fantasy genre its getting stale and all the companies involved are responsible for that. What i've said about Irth is that it has some great developers and great graphics. It's still too early to say anything else about it.
Yeah sure Copeland, Irth has "great" developers. That piece of junk barely works. If the developers are as great as you say, why did it take them 2 years to produce a Beta that barely works?
Yeah, yeah, I know, your standard excuse is that they are not a big corporation. So we are all wrong to expect any quality from them. But they are great nevertheless, right?
And you are constantly claiming that Irth has great graphics. Where? No one has seen those "great" graphics yet. So far all of the screen shots on the Irth site look like 1995 doodlings. Maybe you're getting a special private screening of the "great" graphics that you constantly talk about, because no one else have seen them.
Originally posted by Meskor Yeah sure Copeland, Irth has "great" developers. That piece of junk barely works. If the developers are as great as you say, why did it take them 2 years to produce a Beta that barely works? Yeah, yeah, I know, your standard excuse is that they are not a big corporation. So we are all wrong to expect any quality from them. But they are great nevertheless, right?
Not to nit-pick Meskor....
I haven't seen or played the beta to Irth yet. But if you say the beta barely works and call it a piece of junk.... well, that sounds like a perfect definition of a beta to me.
That's exactly why it is a "beta". It is a test used to weed out all those problems and bugs and to make the "piece of junk" run smoothly by the time that the game lauches.
Please don't ever go into any beta expecting the game to be fun, fun, fun and roll smoothly. A beta is not there for your playing pleasure and enjoyment error-free. It is meant to find and smash all those bugs that make it a piece of junk and turn it into a smooth sailing game.
Originally posted by Meskor Originally posted by CopelandOriginally posted by RossalisOriginally posted by Copeland Vanguard will be great for those who like the PvE thing and Irth Online is really looking promising for those who like realm pvp. In any case Turbine could shit a turnip that looks like Jesus and i wouldn't care. Hey cope, let's stop with the Turbine bashing. Magic Hat shit a Beta that looked like a turd, but you are madly in love with that.No actually i'm not. I'm kinda tired of the whole fantasy genre its getting stale and all the companies involved are responsible for that. What i've said about Irth is that it has some great developers and great graphics. It's still too early to say anything else about it. Yeah sure Copeland, Irth has "great" developers. That piece of junk barely works. If the developers are as great as you say, why did it take them 2 years to produce a Beta that barely works? Yeah, yeah, I know, your standard excuse is that they are not a big corporation. So we are all wrong to expect any quality from them. But they are great nevertheless, right? And you are constantly claiming that Irth has great graphics. Where? No one has seen those "great" graphics yet. So far all of the screen shots on the Irth site look like 1995 doodlings. Maybe you're getting a special private screening of the "great" graphics that you constantly talk about, because no one else have seen them.
You don't know a damn thing about what Beta means, obviously.
And, fyi: EQ and UO and AC were all in development for a couple years before they hit beta 1. And their early phases of beta weren't any more stable or perfect than Irith is.
Be careful about throwing stones at a BETA... EVE wasn't even worth a damn in early Beta.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
You don't know a damn thing about what Beta means, obviously. And, fyi: EQ and UO and AC were all in development for a couple years before they hit beta 1. And their early phases of beta weren't any more stable or perfect than Irith is. Be careful about throwing stones at a BETA... EVE wasn't even worth a damn in early Beta.
I see that you are an authority on Beta. If you truly knew anything about it you wouldn't expect a software product to be broken half the time. EQ and AC Betas were far and away more stable than Irth's. EQ and AC were not perfect, but they didn't crash and hang anywhere near as much as Irth did. And their Beta had far more completion in content and gameplay than Irth does, even in their second Beta.
Speaking of throwing stones, your buddy cope was throwing stones at Turbine's product and proclaimed Irth's superiority, when in reality Irth is one of the worst Beta's in recent memory.
Elnator, you said that you only played 4 months of release. Well, the monthly updates have really changed almost everything in the game. In summary, there are just tons more things to do now.
Jenuviel, very well said. AC has some great ideas that you don't see in any other mmorpg.
I didn't actually play EQ, but I played DAOC, which is an EQ clone. I didn't like grouping. It was just too hard to get into a good group, and I just wanted more freedom. I don't like forced grouping. AC just feels like freedom.
I though Ultima X: Odyssey was going to abe a remake of Ultima Online in true 3D with graphics to rival SWG and EQ2. Alas it wasn't, it was just another half-baked succesor to UO that got cancelled. I think they should remake UO in true 3D and make it like it was in the old days, fully PvP, but with some of the new cool features like customizable housing equatable to The Sims 2.
Originally posted by zaxtor99 Asheron's Call.An mmo that has a heart and a soul. A world that is truly fun to explore. So many dungeons. So much to do. So many magic spells to aquire. So much cool armor and weapons to seek out. A PvP world that is truly PvP. Relentless. A skill and level system that constantly rewards you for your work. Constant experience earned that you can use to raise any of your skills you desire at any time to make your avatar truly unique. A social system and allegiance system that rewards players for aquiring players to work hard underneath them by passing a portion of their earned experience up. This system also rewards good patrons (the person you sign under) with hard working players to help you gain levels by passing exp up to you. Raids and allegiance wars that make your palms sweat on Darktide, the PvP server. Monthly patches that constantly upgrade and add to the depth of this already deepest content mmo available today. A death system that punishes you for dying... the way it should be. Death should have a price. One of the most rewarding crafting systems of any mmo that allows you to make far superior weapons and armor, and each item made is highly valued due to the time and care involved. Some of the most devoted fans of any mmo are those who have played Asherons Call for years on end, and still log in faithfully. There is a reason for such loyalty. Hundreds of dungeons, each different, and many different dungeons to go and advance, regardless of your current level. A living world of high, rocky mountains, arid deserts, deep forests, and dark, murky swamplands that create a diversity in your travels... each terrain hosting its own types of monsters.All this is only scratching the surface of whats available in Asherons Call.Regardless of the dated graphics and it's age, many who have played AC and who have also played many other current mmos still agree that Asherons Call is one of the greatest mmos of all time... even compared to the newer shinier mmos of today.With all this, it truly amazes me that Turbine doesn't put some of the effort and money they are spending on D&D Online and LoTR Online into a graphically superior version of this great classic mmo. They could name it something like "Asherons Call Reborn" and have a new graphics engine and overhaul to take advantage of todays superior computer systems. And then if they'd only spend a little money advertising this game and using their great success with Asherons Call as a marketing stone, they could easily be one of the best selling mmos of all time. They could easily make millions upon millions more profit every single month with a game this good. All they need is more current, more tempting graphics to go along with their already superior game.. and they'd have a diamond in the ruff in the over crowded mmo market today. All they'd need is a new graphics engine, many more servers to host all the new players, and a few bucks spent to advertise it. I simply don't understand when a company like Turbine already has a far superior product to whats out there, why they don't take advantage of its success and fan loyalty by spending some $$ on it to make it be so much more then it is now. It sure seems to me that this would make a lot more sense then putting millions into a flop like AC2, or into huge new money pits like D&D or LoTR. AC is proven. It just needs some updating and advertising. Surely someone agrees with me here?- Zaxx
Originally posted by Meskor Originally posted by Elnator You don't know a damn thing about what Beta means, obviously. And, fyi: EQ and UO and AC were all in development for a couple years before they hit beta 1. And their early phases of beta weren't any more stable or perfect than Irith is. Be careful about throwing stones at a BETA... EVE wasn't even worth a damn in early Beta. I see that you are an authority on Beta. If you truly knew anything about it you wouldn't expect a software product to be broken half the time. EQ and AC Betas were far and away more stable than Irth's. EQ and AC were not perfect, but they didn't crash and hang anywhere near as much as Irth did. And their Beta had far more completion in content and gameplay than Irth does, even in their second Beta. Speaking of throwing stones, your buddy cope was throwing stones at Turbine's product and proclaimed Irth's superiority, when in reality Irth is one of the worst Beta's in recent memory.
Excuse me? You're joking right? Were you even IN EQ Beta 1 or 2? It's obvious from your statement that, at best, you joined EQ's beta in late phase 3 or early phase 4. During Beta 1 the servers were down CONSTANTLY To fix bugs and issues that were game stopping. During phase 2 it got a bit better but I'd have to say that more than half the time the servers were down for game stopping issues. Even in Early Phase 3 "Soon" became a standard joke among beta testers of EQ because the "ETA on Server up" would always bee "Soon (tm)" because SOON generally meant anything between 2 and 8 hours.
And yes, I'm an authority on Beta. Having been a programmer for the first 10 years of my Computer Industry career. Maybe you should go look up the definition of what Beta Testing means. It's generally the testing of a product that *is not ready for market* and *has many known bugs and issues*. A Beta, especially early beta, is not intended to be there for you to play for your enjoyment.
AC early beta phases were a little better than EQ's but even there the early phases weren't exactly a walk in the park.
Did you Beta DAOC? Or EVE or E&B or AO or SWG or UO or PlanetSide or Lineage II or Horizons?
All of the above games had very rocky phases in Beta. The fact that you even cited EQ's beta as an example of a 'stable playable game' shows that you don't know a damn thing about what Beta is or what it is for. Beta 1 of EQ was damn near un-playable. People fell through the world all the time. Pathing was an absolute joke. Classes weren't playable. The only zones were the ones right around Qeynos. We were still finding holes in the world in Phase 4 of Beta (And there were still a few even at release). Graphics in Beta 1 were pretty awful too, they improved as the development of the game progressed.
Some games had better beta's than others. E&B was nearly ready for release when it was put into Beta. It had TONS of balance issues, however. EVE was a nightmare in early beta. 99% of the time you couldn't even log in because the servers were so unstable. And if you got in half the time your ship wouldn't work properly. AO's beta in early phases was horrid as well. And we all know how bad it's release was. UO's beta was even pretty rocky and that was being developed by a huge game company that had an amazing internal testing team. Yet still UO's beta had issues and server stability was a joke. Hell... UO's servers weren't exactly rock solid even at release.
Beta varies from game to game. The majority of the games that I've managed to get into the earliest phases of Beta were very unfinished and extroardinarily buggy, many of them to the point where it was very frustrating to try to play them.
You can bash a BETA all you want but the point is that the reason it is in BETA is because *gasp* it's not finished yet.
I don't even play Irith. I don't really even plan to play Irith. But you guys bashing on a games graphics and bugs when it's still in beta is just rediculous. It's NOT SUPPOSED TO WORK PERFECTLY YET because it is a BETA!
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
And yes, I'm an authority on Beta. Having been a programmer for the first 10 years of my Computer Industry career. Maybe you should go look up the definition of what Beta Testing means. It's generally the testing of a product that *is not ready for market* and *has many known bugs and issues*. A Beta, especially early beta, is not intended to be there for you to play for your enjoyment.
Whoa. What credentials. You are indeed a Master of Beta.
Ok. Mr. Master Beta, I did look up the definition of Beta. In fact, I'm looking in the book "Software Engineering for Game Developers" by John Flynt, PhD. He was a twenty year member of the Technical Staff at Bell Labs/Lucent Technologies/Avaya. I would go out on a limb and assume that his knowledge of software engineering is about 1000 times greater than yours. He gave a very dumbed-down definition of Beta, even self-proclaimed Master Beta's like you and cope can understand. He defined Beta as "functionally complete". In other words, all the functionality should be in there. Irth, by the devs own admission, is not functionally complete.
So before you try to impress anyone with your software engineering prowess, try to sound like you really are a software engineer. Your claims of 10 years of programming rings very hollow. What did you program in? BASIC? FORTRAN? Video Cassette Recorder? Almost all MMO development is done in C++ today. Programming a VCR doesn't necessarily qualify you as a software engineer. Also, your programming doesn't mean you understand the processes of good engineering practices, as you've already proven.
Mr. Master Beta, I don't suggest that you continue to claim that you are an software engineer, because obviously you are just a tinkerer programmer.
Originally posted by Meskor Originally posted by Elnator And yes, I'm an authority on Beta. Having been a programmer for the first 10 years of my Computer Industry career. Maybe you should go look up the definition of what Beta Testing means. It's generally the testing of a product that *is not ready for market* and *has many known bugs and issues*. A Beta, especially early beta, is not intended to be there for you to play for your enjoyment. Whoa. What credentials. You are indeed a Master of Beta. Ok. Mr. Master Beta, I did look up the definition of Beta. In fact, I'm looking in the book "Software Engineering for Game Developers" by John Flynt, PhD. He was a twenty year member of the Technical Staff at Bell Labs/Lucent Technologies/Avaya. I would go out on a limb and assume that his knowledge of software engineering is about 1000 times greater than yours. He gave a very dumbed-down definition of Beta, even self-proclaimed Master Beta's like you and cope can understand. He defined Beta as "functionally complete". In other words, all the functionality should be in there. Irth, by the devs own admission, is not functionally complete. So before you try to impress anyone with your software engineering prowess, try to sound like you really are a software engineer. Your claims of 10 years of programming rings very hollow. What did you program in? BASIC? FORTRAN? Video Cassette Recorder? Almost all MMO development is done in C++ today. Programming a VCR doesn't necessarily qualify you as a software engineer. Also, your programming doesn't mean you understand the processes of good engineering practices, as you've already proven. Mr. Master Beta, I don't suggest that you continue to claim that you are an software engineer, because obviously you are just a tinkerer programmer.
Actually I wrote various applications including help desk tracking software, database retrieval software, operational applications for the insurance company I worked for at the time and a whole slew of other programs.
The languages I programmed in included Ansi C (which is what C++ is based on), Pascal, Cobol, ADA and yes, actually, a bit of Fortran. I haven't programmed in about oh..... 10 years now since I switched over to network engineering because I don't enjoy writing programs to a deadline. It's one of the most stressful jobs there is.
"Functionally complete" doesn't mean it's a fun playable game. Irith is technically "functionally" complete: You can log in You can create a character You can play.
Therefore it fits the definition of "Functional"
It is not, however, finished or polished.
I cited multiple games that I have beta tested as well. I also stated that during their various phases of Beta several of them were just as unfinished as Irith is now. Why you continue to argue semantics is beyond me. The fact is that Irith is in very early beta and you choose to insult a game long before it's due to be released. Last I had heard anything the Devs at Irith were quoted as saying it wouldn't be released till sometime in 2006. That's a LONG way to go yet but you find it necessary to bash a Beta.
I don't even know why I'm debating this. I don't even plan to play Irith. Though I think it's about time someone started to try to develop a game with the concepts they are trying.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Actually I wrote various applications including help desk tracking software, database retrieval software, operational applications for the insurance company I worked for at the time and a whole slew of other programs.
The languages I programmed in included Ansi C (which is what C++ is based on), Pascal, Cobol, ADA and yes, actually, a bit of Fortran.
That makes you an authority? Mr. Master Beta, your little laundry list of accomplishments hardly makes you knowledgeable enough to make that claim.
Originally posted by Elnator
"Functionally complete" doesn't mean it's a fun playable game. Irith is technically "functionally" complete: You can log in You can create a character You can play.
Therefore it fits the definition of "Functional"
It is not, however, finished or polished.
You've got to be kidding. If that is your definition of functionally complete, then even out-dated programmers like you can write a game in 2 days. That irth beta is no where near functionally complete. The irth devs even admit that they were still developing functional modules of the game during beta. Not just content, but features.
Originally posted by Elnator
Why you continue to argue semantics is beyond me.
LOL. You were the one arguing semantics with your pretentious authority: "Beta is *is not ready for market* and *has many known bugs and issues* " Well, after a quote from a real authority exposed your ignorance, you now back off from your semantics and claim that semantics should not be applicable. Be consistent my Master Beta friend.
Originally posted by Elnator
I don't even know why I'm debating this. I don't even plan to play Irith. Though I think it's about time someone started to try to develop a game with the concepts they are trying.
I don't know why you are debating this either. But you are welcome to continue. You expose your ignorance with each post. And I also think it's about time someone started to try to develop this type of game. But the irth devs obviously can't pull it off. Irth Online is as much a game as you are a software engineer.
Anyone else think it is funny how all these people say AC was such a great game. Yet UO who even has more outdated gfx still beats AC in pops hands down.
Don't get me wrong the game was great in its day but with the little gfx update they did (they say more is coming in a few months) it really isn't anything to talk about. But really AC has always had a small following of very loyal gamers.
I played it for 3 years but it was never the best out there at least imho.
2005 gfx? Then have them make AC3, but get stormwaltz back so we can have great lore again.
Take no thought of who is right or wrong or who is better than. Be not for or against. Bruce Lee
Beskor, I have to side easily with Elnator on this one.
YOU are the one that acted like a beta was supposed to be error free and fun to play. You seemed to act like Irths beta sucked because it was more of an inconvenience for you then it was fun for you to play.
Both myself and Elnator quickly tried to expalin to you that a beta is exactly that.. especially with games. We both explained that was the purpose of a beta was to debug and to polish it so it is ready for release to the wide public. But then you immediately jumped all over Elnator acting like a wounded puppy that just got growled at by a big dog and your little pride got hurt.
Poor you. Elnator is absolutely correct in his definition of a "beta"
You can go find anything you want on the internet to try and prove that a beta is supposed to mean its fun for you to play and totally ready to be fun for you with no problems and bugs what-so-ever. But it doesn't mean that you, Mr "Beta means perfect fun for me" are correct.
Again, a beta is not a complete and ready game. It is an opportunity to let people test out the application or game and test it for problems and bugs so that they can be corrected before it is released to the public.
Originally posted by Crabby Given the state of the LOTR MMO engine I very highly doubt that Turbine even has the capability to push out "modern 2005" graphical quality.
Ofcourse they do. I think that that statement is almost crazy myself.
Look at what Turbine released in 2002... AC2. The graphics in AC2 were mind-boggling for that time frame and certainly they were state of the art for an mmo back in 2002. The game was what sucked. The stream-lining of everything. The simplifed leveling. The dead, boring world with no npc merchants. But the graphics for the time were unequaled for that time in mmos.
Turbine certainly has the know-how and technology to put out a graphically superior game if that's what they put their mind to doing. Like you all say, I don't think they will modernize Asherons Call to current graphical standards, I just think that they should.
I don't need dolled up screenshots when I partook of E3 footage of this year. The game is ugly and bland as sin.
Furthermore, there is nothing they could possibly do the AC engine. If you seriously wanted a revival of the series than you would be asking for a whole new engine. I cite Mythic as another example of just exactly what can be done with dated and aged graphics engines. And EQ for that matter! While a slight better with months of modest work, you're not going to shoehorn the latest stuff into it.
Comments
I'm no marketting analyst but I would venture a guess that this idea has been bandied about Turbine a couple times. You can't possibly think they haven't thought of doing this. There has GOT to be a reason why they chose not to. C'mon now... think a little: If Turbine thought they could do something like this and make it profitable to do so, why wouldn't they?
As to the search on Bestbuy I'm flat out flabbergasted that it's not up there. I distinctly remember seeing an AC box on the shelves last time I was in there and I remember seeing it last November when I was taking a break from SWG and looking for something else to try. Ended up playing WoW beta instead but hey... I did see AC on the shelf... Why it's not popping in the search engine is beyond me... But what the heck I'll go ahead and say maybe I was mistaken and saw it elsewhere and not in bestbuy... possibly at CompUSA (which is across the street, I shop at both). I'm almost positive that I saw it at Best Buy but that search is pretty convincing. No way am I going to say I HAVENT seen it on shelves though, because I have. I even joked about it with a couple friends when we were in there a while ago we were remembering our first time playing it (fondly I might add).
Open your eyes: If turbine thought a graphics update and marketting campaign would work they'd have done it. Instead they have done a RE-SKIN of the existing engine (which is CHEAP but effective) and are trying to re-market it (which I think is the more sensible solution). Hopefully AC's numbers will improve. If they do then maybe Turbine will do a major graphics overhaul though I doubt it. I think they're doing the wise move by just re-skinning things to bring the graphics up a notch or two (remember they aren't all THAT bad to begin with, they're low poly but they were never bad looking and still aren't and they just got better looking skins too) and re-marketting the game with this expansion.
I don't get why you people can't get your heads around this:
Making an upgrade of this magnitude to a game this old is ***expensive*** They can't just slap old graphics on a new engine. Every single pixel of every single poly would have to be completely reworked from SCRATCH. They'd have to basically re-write the entire game on the graphics side. They'd have to re-code all the animations, movement, detail in the game.
It's a monumental project and would cost millions of dollars. Probably at LEAST 5-7 million for the development alone. Then they'd have to go into beta testing to find any holes in the environment. Remember, new engine, new terrain, new graphics. Then they'd have to release it. You're talking about a 5-10 million dollar project to upgrade a game just to give it current graphics. Is it really worth that much money to turbine on the chance that it will become a rocketting success? I honestly don't see Turbine doing this. Even if it WOULD make the game wildly successful Turbine can't afford to take the risk. They just don't have that kind of cussion laying around. Their operating profits have GOT to be massively tied up in the development of DDO and LOTR if what someone else said is true and they don't have a financial backer paying for those titles to be developed (which I find hard to believe by the way).
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
lol. Well, I didn't pre-order the expansion because of all the hype of Sony distributing it and how wide spread it would be on retail shelves (HA!) So now, I just drove 65 miles into Oregon to buy a last copy - I had a small, independant software store hold it a couple of hours for me. I got it installed, and logged into Holtburg on the Darktide server. I was the only player in Holtburg. In about twenty minutes of travel, I saw only a handful of people... and it was peak playing time when I was on. So the population now plain out sucks.
But this goes back to two reasons that I can immediately see....
1) Most of the people who pre-ordered the game at outlets like BestBuy and a lot of EB Games outlets have still not gotten their copy delivered to them...
and mostly...
2) The game, atleast where I live at almost every department store is almost unheard of. Most stores like Target don't even know what the hell I am talking about. Walmart isn't carrying the game at all according to the manager of my Walmart store here. And he means every Walmart nationwide is not carrying the game.
Makes no sense to me. I don't understand Turbine at this point. Why would you put out an expansion and not make it available at any damn stores??? They are shooting their own foot here I would have to say. Ofcourse, they have been shooting their self in the foot with Asherons Call for many years in the Marketing aspect of their game I tend to think. But then again, I'm just a fan. And at this point - I am a very confused, and honestly sad fan of the game.
And Elnator, I understand your points about the game and not investing millions into such an old game, but as a huge fan of the game for so many years, it is simply staggering to me why Turbine doesn't do more to market this game better. It just seems to me that they could make millions more by doing something besides not having even their brand new expansion available out there. What sense does this make?
AC is a great game. It really is. Even today. I really feel that their whole marketing department for this classic needs fired. I guarantee you that I would go in there for a small fraction of what these fools are making and sell a helluva lot more copies of their damn game.
- Zaxx
I'll echo your desire for this Zaxtor, even though I don't really think it's feasible. AC was the second MMO I played (Everquest was my first), though I spent countless years playing and developing MUDs. Most studies seem to indicate that people bond most strongly with their first MMO, basing their future perceptions on their first experience with the genre. That just wasn't the case with me. I loved what Asheron's Call offered, and that has become my basis of comparison, my gold standard, for other MMOs. I played it for four years before taking a leave of absence for two. Elements of the game were frustrating to me then (the necessity to use valuable character slots as semi-mobile banks, the fact that magic was nearly mandatory for success, etc.), and I thought perhaps some of the new games might take the things that worked and fix the things that didn't.
I've since played quite a few games with banks, auction houses, dynamic economies, etc. None of them were as enjoyable to me as AC, though. After two years playing games as varied as EVE Online (1 1/2 months), Anarchy Online (five months), World of Warcraft (five months), City of Heroes (one month), Star Wars: Galaxies (11 months), Saga of Ryzom (from launch to the big "Patch 1"), and the Matrix Online (two weeks), I find myself back where I started. None of the games I mentioned are or were terrible. Many of them were well-made, and several were even quite original. None of them emphasized the elements that made AC such a marvel to me, however.
Few games had anywhere near the amount of land to explore (let alone zone-free land), few had even remotely as many dungeons to delve, few had anywhere near the number of quests to complete, very few indeed had monthly updates of any real significance, even fewer had evolving story arcs that players could change, and none had even a fraction of the lore found in AC- books in libraries, scrolls of information in many of the quest dungeons, NPCs that told you about the world from their own racial perspective, even the chance for player-submitted stories to be published and sold at in-game bookstores, and that's not the half of it. The game's combination of a skill system and a level system really had/has a lot to do with my opinion of it, as well. As was mentioned, it does grant you some degree of instant gratification for your effort; your experience points are like currency you can spend whenever you want in order to improve your character. Genius. There was nearly infinite control over who your character was and how that character performed at every given moment through your ability to choose which attributes and skills to invest in.
I'd leap at the opportunity to play an updated version of this game. Like many others, I was really hoping AC2 would be that chance; it wasn't. When I heard that Turbine had acquired the licenses for Lord of the Rings and Dugeons and Dragons, however, I realized my hope was a fallacy, at least in the short term. They've moved on to newer, more marketable things. Unfortunately, they've left many (most?) of their original ideas behind in the process. Welcome to another world of elves, dwarves and orcs. We really needed two more. Maybe there will be an AC3, maybe there won't. If there will be, though, it won't be for quite some time. To use a film metaphor, my hope is that Turbine is making these cheesy summer blockbuster films so they can afford to make a high-quality indie film in the fall.
No actually i'm not. I'm kinda tired of the whole fantasy genre its getting stale and all the companies involved are responsible for that. What i've said about Irth is that it has some great developers and great graphics. It's still too early to say anything else about it.
Make a difference!
I agree Zax... Turbine has done a horrid job of advertizing. And I'm shocked that it's not on shelves the way it was supposed to be. That floors me.
Here's an interesting question for their marketting department:
Me: Which game has been your chief competitor for the longest time?
Turbine: EQ & EQ2
Me: Which company owns EQ
Turbine: SOE
Me: Who owns SOE?
Turbine: Sony
Me: So um... please explain why you would ask SONY to distribute your game that is a direct competitor of two of theirs?
Turbine: ..........
Me: Thought so.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
No actually i'm not. I'm kinda tired of the whole fantasy genre its getting stale and all the companies involved are responsible for that. What i've said about Irth is that it has some great developers and great graphics. It's still too early to say anything else about it.
Yeah sure Copeland, Irth has "great" developers. That piece of junk barely works. If the developers are as great as you say, why did it take them 2 years to produce a Beta that barely works?
Yeah, yeah, I know, your standard excuse is that they are not a big corporation. So we are all wrong to expect any quality from them. But they are great nevertheless, right?
And you are constantly claiming that Irth has great graphics. Where? No one has seen those "great" graphics yet. So far all of the screen shots on the Irth site look like 1995 doodlings. Maybe you're getting a special private screening of the "great" graphics that you constantly talk about, because no one else have seen them.
Not to nit-pick Meskor....
I haven't seen or played the beta to Irth yet. But if you say the beta barely works and call it a piece of junk.... well, that sounds like a perfect definition of a beta to me.
That's exactly why it is a "beta". It is a test used to weed out all those problems and bugs and to make the "piece of junk" run smoothly by the time that the game lauches.
Please don't ever go into any beta expecting the game to be fun, fun, fun and roll smoothly. A beta is not there for your playing pleasure and enjoyment error-free. It is meant to find and smash all those bugs that make it a piece of junk and turn it into a smooth sailing game.
- Zaxx
You don't know a damn thing about what Beta means, obviously.
And, fyi: EQ and UO and AC were all in development for a couple years before they hit beta 1. And their early phases of beta weren't any more stable or perfect than Irith is.
Be careful about throwing stones at a BETA... EVE wasn't even worth a damn in early Beta.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I see that you are an authority on Beta. If you truly knew anything about it you wouldn't expect a software product to be broken half the time. EQ and AC Betas were far and away more stable than Irth's. EQ and AC were not perfect, but they didn't crash and hang anywhere near as much as Irth did. And their Beta had far more completion in content and gameplay than Irth does, even in their second Beta.
Speaking of throwing stones, your buddy cope was throwing stones at Turbine's product and proclaimed Irth's superiority, when in reality Irth is one of the worst Beta's in recent memory.
Elnator, you said that you only played 4 months of release. Well, the monthly updates have really changed almost everything in the game. In summary, there are just tons more things to do now.
Jenuviel, very well said. AC has some great ideas that you don't see in any other mmorpg.
I didn't actually play EQ, but I played DAOC, which is an EQ clone. I didn't like grouping. It was just too hard to get into a good group, and I just wanted more freedom. I don't like forced grouping. AC just feels like freedom.
I though Ultima X: Odyssey was going to abe a remake of Ultima Online in true 3D with graphics to rival SWG and EQ2. Alas it wasn't, it was just another half-baked succesor to UO that got cancelled. I think they should remake UO in true 3D and make it like it was in the old days, fully PvP, but with some of the new cool features like customizable housing equatable to The Sims 2.
The key to a great MMOG is Freedom
No
yeah, what Sone243 said.
As many have stated, the game was not very good to begin with, new gfx wont change that.
All ur Mountain Dew is belong to me.
Excuse me? You're joking right? Were you even IN EQ Beta 1 or 2? It's obvious from your statement that, at best, you joined EQ's beta in late phase 3 or early phase 4. During Beta 1 the servers were down CONSTANTLY To fix bugs and issues that were game stopping. During phase 2 it got a bit better but I'd have to say that more than half the time the servers were down for game stopping issues. Even in Early Phase 3 "Soon" became a standard joke among beta testers of EQ because the "ETA on Server up" would always bee "Soon (tm)" because SOON generally meant anything between 2 and 8 hours.
And yes, I'm an authority on Beta. Having been a programmer for the first 10 years of my Computer Industry career. Maybe you should go look up the definition of what Beta Testing means. It's generally the testing of a product that *is not ready for market* and *has many known bugs and issues*. A Beta, especially early beta, is not intended to be there for you to play for your enjoyment.
AC early beta phases were a little better than EQ's but even there the early phases weren't exactly a walk in the park.
Did you Beta DAOC? Or EVE or E&B or AO or SWG or UO or PlanetSide or Lineage II or Horizons?
All of the above games had very rocky phases in Beta. The fact that you even cited EQ's beta as an example of a 'stable playable game' shows that you don't know a damn thing about what Beta is or what it is for. Beta 1 of EQ was damn near un-playable. People fell through the world all the time. Pathing was an absolute joke. Classes weren't playable. The only zones were the ones right around Qeynos. We were still finding holes in the world in Phase 4 of Beta (And there were still a few even at release). Graphics in Beta 1 were pretty awful too, they improved as the development of the game progressed.
Some games had better beta's than others. E&B was nearly ready for release when it was put into Beta. It had TONS of balance issues, however. EVE was a nightmare in early beta. 99% of the time you couldn't even log in because the servers were so unstable. And if you got in half the time your ship wouldn't work properly. AO's beta in early phases was horrid as well. And we all know how bad it's release was. UO's beta was even pretty rocky and that was being developed by a huge game company that had an amazing internal testing team. Yet still UO's beta had issues and server stability was a joke. Hell... UO's servers weren't exactly rock solid even at release.
Beta varies from game to game. The majority of the games that I've managed to get into the earliest phases of Beta were very unfinished and extroardinarily buggy, many of them to the point where it was very frustrating to try to play them.
You can bash a BETA all you want but the point is that the reason it is in BETA is because *gasp* it's not finished yet.
I don't even play Irith. I don't really even plan to play Irith. But you guys bashing on a games graphics and bugs when it's still in beta is just rediculous. It's NOT SUPPOSED TO WORK PERFECTLY YET because it is a BETA!
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Whoa. What credentials. You are indeed a Master of Beta.
Ok. Mr. Master Beta, I did look up the definition of Beta. In fact, I'm looking in the book "Software Engineering for Game Developers" by John Flynt, PhD. He was a twenty year member of the Technical Staff at Bell Labs/Lucent Technologies/Avaya. I would go out on a limb and assume that his knowledge of software engineering is about 1000 times greater than yours. He gave a very dumbed-down definition of Beta, even self-proclaimed Master Beta's like you and cope can understand. He defined Beta as "functionally complete". In other words, all the functionality should be in there. Irth, by the devs own admission, is not functionally complete.
So before you try to impress anyone with your software engineering prowess, try to sound like you really are a software engineer. Your claims of 10 years of programming rings very hollow. What did you program in? BASIC? FORTRAN? Video Cassette Recorder? Almost all MMO development is done in C++ today. Programming a VCR doesn't necessarily qualify you as a software engineer. Also, your programming doesn't mean you understand the processes of good engineering practices, as you've already proven.
Mr. Master Beta, I don't suggest that you continue to claim that you are an software engineer, because obviously you are just a tinkerer programmer.
Actually I wrote various applications including help desk tracking software, database retrieval software, operational applications for the insurance company I worked for at the time and a whole slew of other programs.
The languages I programmed in included Ansi C (which is what C++ is based on), Pascal, Cobol, ADA and yes, actually, a bit of Fortran. I haven't programmed in about oh..... 10 years now since I switched over to network engineering because I don't enjoy writing programs to a deadline. It's one of the most stressful jobs there is.
"Functionally complete" doesn't mean it's a fun playable game. Irith is technically "functionally" complete:
You can log in
You can create a character
You can play.
Therefore it fits the definition of "Functional"
It is not, however, finished or polished.
I cited multiple games that I have beta tested as well. I also stated that during their various phases of Beta several of them were just as unfinished as Irith is now. Why you continue to argue semantics is beyond me. The fact is that Irith is in very early beta and you choose to insult a game long before it's due to be released. Last I had heard anything the Devs at Irith were quoted as saying it wouldn't be released till sometime in 2006. That's a LONG way to go yet but you find it necessary to bash a Beta.
I don't even know why I'm debating this. I don't even plan to play Irith. Though I think it's about time someone started to try to develop a game with the concepts they are trying.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
That makes you an authority? Mr. Master Beta, your little laundry list of accomplishments hardly makes you knowledgeable enough to make that claim.
You've got to be kidding. If that is your definition of functionally complete, then even out-dated programmers like you can write a game in 2 days. That irth beta is no where near functionally complete. The irth devs even admit that they were still developing functional modules of the game during beta. Not just content, but features.
LOL. You were the one arguing semantics with your pretentious authority: "Beta is *is not ready for market* and *has many known bugs and issues* " Well, after a quote from a real authority exposed your ignorance, you now back off from your semantics and claim that semantics should not be applicable. Be consistent my Master Beta friend.
I don't know why you are debating this either. But you are welcome to continue. You expose your ignorance with each post. And I also think it's about time someone started to try to develop this type of game. But the irth devs obviously can't pull it off. Irth Online is as much a game as you are a software engineer.Anyone else think it is funny how all these people say AC was such a great game. Yet UO who even has more outdated gfx still beats AC in pops hands down.
Don't get me wrong the game was great in its day but with the little gfx update they did (they say more is coming in a few months) it really isn't anything to talk about. But really AC has always had a small following of very loyal gamers.
I played it for 3 years but it was never the best out there at least imho.
2005 gfx? Then have them make AC3, but get stormwaltz back so we can have great lore again.
Take no thought of who is right or wrong or who is better than. Be not for or against.
Bruce Lee
Bah
It's just not worth arguing with you people. Believe what you want. I'll reserve judgement on any game until it's out of beta.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Beskor, I have to side easily with Elnator on this one.
YOU are the one that acted like a beta was supposed to be error free and fun to play. You seemed to act like Irths beta sucked because it was more of an inconvenience for you then it was fun for you to play.
Both myself and Elnator quickly tried to expalin to you that a beta is exactly that.. especially with games. We both explained that was the purpose of a beta was to debug and to polish it so it is ready for release to the wide public. But then you immediately jumped all over Elnator acting like a wounded puppy that just got growled at by a big dog and your little pride got hurt.
Poor you. Elnator is absolutely correct in his definition of a "beta"
You can go find anything you want on the internet to try and prove that a beta is supposed to mean its fun for you to play and totally ready to be fun for you with no problems and bugs what-so-ever. But it doesn't mean that you, Mr "Beta means perfect fun for me" are correct.
Again, a beta is not a complete and ready game. It is an opportunity to let people test out the application or game and test it for problems and bugs so that they can be corrected before it is released to the public.
- Zaxx
Ofcourse they do. I think that that statement is almost crazy myself.
Look at what Turbine released in 2002... AC2. The graphics in AC2 were mind-boggling for that time frame and certainly they were state of the art for an mmo back in 2002. The game was what sucked. The stream-lining of everything. The simplifed leveling. The dead, boring world with no npc merchants. But the graphics for the time were unequaled for that time in mmos.
Turbine certainly has the know-how and technology to put out a graphically superior game if that's what they put their mind to doing. Like you all say, I don't think they will modernize Asherons Call to current graphical standards, I just think that they should.
- Zaxx
Obviously the guy hasn't even bothered to look at the screen shots.
Yep. As proven here, Turbine doesn't have a clue how to make a game with good graphics, hehe.
Click here for an example of Turbines crappy LoTR graphics, lol
- Zaxx
I don't need dolled up screenshots when I partook of E3 footage of this year. The game is ugly and bland as sin.
Furthermore, there is nothing they could possibly do the AC engine. If you seriously wanted a revival of the series than you would be asking for a whole new engine. I cite Mythic as another example of just exactly what can be done with dated and aged graphics engines. And EQ for that matter! While a slight better with months of modest work, you're not going to shoehorn the latest stuff into it.