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Calling all SWG Vets!!! Can we help save SWTOR???
ScoutMastr
Member Posts: 140
Being refugees from the biggest MMO debacle in history, we have experience that could prove invaluable. We know first hand how a company can ruin a game, and so we are less likely to let our guard down there. The question however, isn't just about how SWTOR can be ruined by Bioware/EA, but more it's a question of what have we learned, about PLAYERS, that can negatively impact a game--and how we can TRY to keep it from happening to SWTOR.
Look, we all know, and mostly accept, that SWTOR is NOT SWG in ANY form, but whatever it is, people seem to like it...much like we liked our game back before...well, you know what happened. I say, even if we don't like this game, or don't subscribe very long, we can share our insight--and in doing so, maybe help the SWTOR community preserve their game.
What I'm looking for are your thoughts on how the SWTOR community can avoid the heartaches we endured even before the CU/NGE. The following is something I posted in another thread, that I believe was moved to the SWG forums, but it was written for the SWTOR audience. It's a warning, but I'm not saying that ANY MMO will ever be NGE'd again...by anybody. It focuses more on what the players should do or not do, you might agree/disagree, and there's nothing wrong with that--but try to keep in mind that this thread isn't just about what should be in this game--it's more about sharing advice with the people that are very excited about playing it...and want to stay that way.
There's no ONE reason that a lot of people quit playing SWG, but we can guess that the NGE did take a major toll lol. Some say players quit because of bugs, but how many quit out of boredom or frustration? Quitting from bugs?...I'm sure some did, but considering the changes they made to the game (NGE), the problem, they felt, was that people simply weren't enjoying their game.
I remember some of the complaints I'd read on the boards--and keep in mind this was my very first MMORPG--after a while I noticed a pattern that was later confirmed by SOE. If players complained that they couldn't do as well as other professions, the other profs got NERFED! In a game with skills that are extrememly hard to balance, SOE opts to take the easiest route--take away abilities from those that can do what you CAN'T, so that NONE of you can! (Except Jedi LOL--but even they got nerfed a time or two)...adding frustration to those being NERFED. Why didn't SOE just add capabilites to the weaker profs? Because then someone else would see that and swear that they were now overpowered...so SOE took the position that if enough players say they couldn't do something that the other prof could, then that prof was overpowered--so I begged people to STOP doing that! STOP saying someone else can do something you can't, and instead just ask for better abilities for your profession--NEVER MENTION OTHER PROFESSIONS...did anyone listen?...NO--FRUSTRATING...and so people were constantly complaining about getting nerfed--they'd rage quit--and then the strangest thing would happen on the boards--instead of support form other players, they'd get "Don't let the door knob hit you..." taunts. I remember thinking "wait a minute, these guys' profession was just nerfed to hell, and people are actually happy about that?...ummm, what happens when the nerf bat hits their profession and no other players support them?" So again, I tried to be the voice of reason, begging people to support each other even if the nerf bat didn't impact their gameplay...yet still no one cared, until it was their turn to rage quit.
Let's not forget good old fashioned boredom--SWG became nothing more than a graphical chat room to many--and honestly for the social gamer, there was nothing wrong with that. I'd log in sometimes just to see what people were talking about, but then I decided to get more involved in the GCW and PVP...IT WAS A BLAST! I sucked, but it was fun...having a group of coverts and just a few overts...setting the trap, and when a group of enemy overts jumped our overts...GAME ON!--only to find that they too had coverts...next thing you know you have 40 players fighting and even running for their lives! Too much fun. I remember trying to level up my faction rank, and getting TEF'd and having to run for my life when a group of enemy overts ambushed me!--definitely more challenging than mowing down a dozen Storm Troopers! Hell I even went overt if I saw someone attacking a rebel base, just to get killed with my fellow NPC rebs--still fun...then they changed the system because of complaints, and TEF's went the way of the dinosaur --COMPLETELY destroying the GCW...and boredom set in. I had 3 paying accounts and each one had a yearly subscription--had about 6 months left on them when I stopped logging in to the game--I'd check the forums to see if they were ever going to revive the GCW, but they never did, so I didn't renew.
Want to save SWTOR? I'm going to tell you how:
First, always encourage the devs to add more of what you like to do in the game, but never--and this is going to sound odd to some--but NEVER complain about the stuff you don't like to do, if you don't HAVE to do it. As an example, the flirt dialogue--if you want more opportunites for your character to flirt and get laid, ask that they add more flirtatious dialogue/scenarios--but if you don't give a rat's ass if your character ever gets laid, don't say "Hey devs, instead of stupid flirts, can we get some really evil options?"...instead, just ask for more evil or cruel dialogue options (go super darkside lol)--leave the flirt mechanic out of it, because others might actually enjoy it, even if it's a very small percentage of players.
Second, and you're really going to hate this, but don't even complain about stuff you DO have to do that you don't like, if others DO like it. For example, let's say that Bioware decides to make small instanced story quests that allow you to make major changes to the appearance of your character--so anytime you want to change your character's appearance, they've made that option available, but you have to run through a little story quest, so that your character change "enhances" the immersion--it gives a reason for any major change in appearance--it could be different for every class or planet that you're on. Now let's say that many people applaud this mechanic, while many others think it's completely lame and a waste of their time...they just want a "clicky". It sucks, but suck it up lol...and if you rage quit because your character is too lame to complete the quest or you don't have any friends that are willing to help you, then don't mention why you're quitting when they ask you...make up something like "school/work demands" or don't give a reason at all. That way, it doesn't jeopardize something others enjoy.
Third, and finally, don't ever complain--EVER--about what other classes can do! Don't tell them there's a problem with Guardians because Vanguard is a better tank than Guardian...I know, it's already started--which is why I know that nerf bats are at the ready. STOP EFFING DOING THAT PEOPLE!!! Instead, just make suggestions on how Guardian's tanking abilities can and should be improved--hold aggro, crowd control, etc--NEVER MENTION THE OTHER CLASSES...need I say it again?...EVER!!!!! If they see a bunch of people leaving the Guardian class, they might actually do something about it to make it better, but if they see a bunch of people complaining about how much better Vanguards are and that's why they're switching...well, then Vanguard is now a target for nerfdom--doesn't mean they will, but if history has taught us anything, it's that it's easier to take away from a class, than it is to add..."there, now Vanguards aren't better than Guardians--is it lunch time yet?"
Judging by the level of replies given to any random topic here, I hope this isn't falling on deaf ears. There aren't many that "think" before they post--they see an opportunity to say something like "wall of text" or "tldr", and think themselves clever.
And since people are going to complain about stuff that other people enjoy anyway...I hate to say it, but some sort of cash shop probably could have helped SWG. Don't like grinding faction points to rank up because of the TEF? Well, buy your rank--problem solved. Sounds ridiculous, but it could've saved the GCW. SWTOR may have to allow people to buy what they hate doing, so that it won't be taken away from those that like doing it.
Comments
You sure spent a lot of time, and text, to say "don't ask for nerfs to other classes and professions".
While i generally agree with that idea, I disagree with your idea that you should never complain about anything, even if it is so bad that it makes you quit playing. Sorry, but if something is so bad that it makes me quit, then no, I will not ignore the exit survey and keep it to myself. The game doesn't improve if people ignore the things they hate. Just like in beta, you provide feedback and hope the devs are good enough to weed the important stuff out from the whines.
Plus, sometime some things are overpowered and need to be nerfed for the betterment of the game.
Well said, well said indeed. All I would add is there where not many complaints in the SWG forums as they where heavily moderated and then the ban stick came out if you keep posting. We came here to have a voice and to talk about what was wrong. We all need to remember this place that we came to. MMORPG.COM is a place we can still speak our peace and not be cut off at the knees or silenced.
I played the crap outa SWG when it launched was a great game until eventualy running out of content getting bored and moving on to the next game at the time (think was ffxi after swg but cant rem) . I am super pumped to shred into some SWTOR as well its an excellent theme park mmorpg and will be quite worth the $60 even just to level a few chars solo and then stop at 50 would still be a good use of $60..
I like what you said about how to post to devs and what not was very well put however I personaly dont care, I am not a star wars gamer or a wow gamer I am just a hardcore gamer I have no loyalty to any product. I am the type of player who will never complain or suggest anything, infact I may never see the forums at all. I think its great if you want to help swtor and I am glad people like you exist to try and help move games forward in a positive direction but for me I am just going to keep to myself, shread the game to pieces with my friends and then likely move onto d3 sometime in 2012.
All this being said theres lots of SWG players coming to swtor infact I am joining a server that has many many players from old SWG Lowca server, old swg players + wow friends that are coming + rl friends getting the game as well should be a great time and I wish you all well in game I hope you enjoy it as much as I do and good luck getting positive changes made cya in game.
You may want to compress your thoughts a bit. I will not, nor will many people ever read this wall of text. Just a thought for the future.
No offense, but these kind of posts are pointless... The game has already been made... It is what it is, there is no changing it at this point.
is it just me? but I hope there are no SWG vets that play SWTOR because from reading these forums for years they have been some of the biggest cry babies I have ever seen. Go find something else to play SWTOR will be good with out you. SWTOR doesnt need saving it just doesnt need a bunch of cry babies.
Awesome contribution. I'm sure TOR will be so much better off with folks like yourself in the game. :rolleyes:
Haha.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
no, I never said something "bad", I said something YOU may not like, that others do--and to accept that, not ruin it for them. I don't want my input to cause the devs to remove a feature that some players enjoy...unless it's not working as intended of course--lol many people enjoy exploits.
In fact, I'm not one of those people that really buys the "overpowered" argument unless it's a bug or exploit.
One problem I have with short posts like "don't ask for nerfs to other classes!", is it lacks personality and is somewhat confrontational without context...and although I knew the "wall of text" comments were coming, thanks for participating.
Do me a favor if you will...re-read my wall of text, and point out what part you are responding to...I'm not sure you posted in the right thread--Unless, in some strange way, you're trying to say you agree with me, all while taking a jab at SWG vets?
I think the game is good and so does everyone that I know that has played it. SOE is in videogames to make a profit. SWG was not making money so they did NGE which didnt help the game and everyone left SOE decsion that they will have to deal with but the SO CALLED VETS did nothing but cry about it all the time and gave it so much bad press that it died and now they are now the same people that are crying that it died. I think the VETS dont know what they want and should go play something else and not screw up a game that alot of people are looking foward to and Im glad that BIOWARE didnt give in to there stupid demands and made a game that I would like and my friends would like and didnt give a crap if the VETS like it.
Im sorry if I didnt read you whole ten page review of what you think BIOWARE could do to make YOU happy.
love how when people say they are SWG Vets everyone else is suppose to bow down and listen like you are a god or some shit.
The wall of text was the best part...it mentioned you. Compressing thoughts is over-rated, but I think there are text-to-speech programs out there that can help if eye strain is an issue.
SOE CU/NGE is the poster child of how to ruin a MMO..... Every Developer knows this and I seriously doubt we will ever see a Developer try and pull the same thing on their customers what SOE did to theirs..
The biggest obstacle SWG had was a extremely steep learning curve, with no tutorials or anything else to help you get going a lot of people got frustrated and left before really giving the game a chance. Even tho I think SWG had decent amount of subscribers I do think most of that was artificially inflated due to people having 2-4 accounts each due to only being able to create one toon at a time.. If you removed all the extra accounts people had the true population was pretty low...
As much as people like to think otherwise SWG was not that popular.... this is one of the reasons SOE tried to do what they did.. After WOW came out, they saw that Theme Park MMO's was where the money was and tried to convert SWG into one.... which turned into a huge mess and gave SWG a terrible reputation once the Vets went on the war path telling everyone who listened how screwed SWG:NGE was and how SOE treated there customers..
SWG had great potential but greed won out and destroyed it....
So bottom line: The players had nothing to do with the demise of SWG, I put that blame squarely on SOE and LucasArts...
still not sure what you're responding to...unless you're saying that SWTOR players shouldn't do what SWG players did?
Given that, what advice would give those that are excited for this new, and ONLY Star Wars MMO? I say "only" because SWG shuts down before the official launch of SWTOR.
Everything I say is my opinion or personal preference. You may or may not find it useful to your cause but regardless I am entitled to it.
apology accepted, although it wasn't necessary--as I never posted anything about what BIOWARE could do to make ME happy...I'm more interested in how we as players and a community can help avoid nerfing this new game.
Read your topic says it all there "Can we save SWTOR" what I am saying my advise BIOWARE pay MMORPG.com for all the IPs of the people that talked bad about SWG and ban all the so called vets off SWTOR right off the bat. That is what we can do to save SWTOR.
And thus he contributed not to the conversation, and was struck down by SWG Vets...I kid, but then I hope you were too. No doubt there are still a lot of people that still feel hurt about losing their game, and voice it often--but it was fairly unprecedented in MMO history, so I give those that are still angry some leeway...
The SWG forums were a joke back years ago. I remember folks with the sig "I support nudity in game" in the O forums. I mean how many stories were there of folks running virtual brothels with mangina ents back then? A pretty sick/twisted bunch.
The OP was exactly right with the contention SWG was more for a RP gamer. Those that enjoyed PnP games, probably were the ones that got into it. IMO though, PnP games were for the non-socially literate in high school. We all have a nerd side to some degree, and these folks were a nerd's nerd.
Which is why they have whined for so many years now. If they had any significant RL social interaction, they would realize others dont wanna hear someone bitch about the same thing for years on end.
I also agree with the contention that calling for nerfs all the time is a bad thing. I wont be a happy camper if they upset the PVE balance due to PVP issues. Hopefully 2 different rule sets are used.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Enjoy the game.... SWTOR isn't going anywhere regardless of what the haters say.... I played it for 4 months in beta and I'm not even close to being burned out on it.... I will say this the starter area does seem a bit boring at first, the fun is after you get your Advance Class and get the skills that define your AC, that's when the fun really begins...
I also think people make a big mistake by trying to play the game as a single player game, sure you can do it but I found it 10x's more fun being grouped up with friends... all the conversations are setup for groups so you can all try and out roll each other to determine the outcome of the story or quest... it's a lot of fun as long as your not some sort of control freak that has to have his way...
Also for people who say your decisions don't mean anything, there are several endings to each class story based on your choices through out the game... So like all Bioware games your choices do decide how your story ends..
Bottom Line is the longevity of the game will be determined by future content updates and expansion packs, if Bioware plays it smart and keeps the quality high I can see this game lasting a very long time...
lol
MMO's need to be rebalanced every couple of weeks its been that way for ages and wont change now, Complacent devs kill games, vets crying over nerfs on forums dont...Well wait....Oh shit!
Agreed, it was a eye sore in the end trying to read it all just to get to the point of "lets not ruin this game" Point form is always a good start