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No class roles is a mistake
Ozivois
Member UncommonPosts: 598
Players want to be unique and different in their virtual world. If every player can play any role at any time then everyone is the same. This is a huge mistake for Funcom to go this route. There needs to be something unique to players and without character development this game will not last.
Funcom: you need to make a change - either offer a class system to provide specialization or at minimum give each character secret powers that we are not aware of but subtly grow stronger as we gain more skill points. Or have a "skill talent" feature that buffs certain stats while weakening others depending on what abilities the character uses the most over the last week or two.
So for example someone who mostly tanks might suddenly be able to play a heal role but will not be as effective as a full time healer until they commit to healing for the next two weeks. and vice-versa. Kinda like being out of shape, a little exercize will get you back on track. A well rounded player will never excel at one particular role but be effective enough at each.
This could be easily implemented with thier current design. If you pick 7 active and 7 passive abilities at one time, as you gain experience points those 7 and 7 will slowly get stronger. At the same time, the unchosen passive and active abilities will slowly decay while you gain experience.
This doesn't need to be very much, but enough to get players to invest in how they play their characters.
Comments
Its not like everyone will be able to do anything equally good from day one. First of all you have to unlock all the 500+ skills. Then you have to get gear for every build. This will take a very long time.
Think of it like this: Instead of making an alt, like in other games, you unlock new skills and get gear for those skills. It will probably not take as long time as making an alt and lvl'ing him up, but its very similiar.
On a side note, you want classes because it makes you feel more unique? I dont want classes because they make me feel less unique. ''Oh there goes another warrior with exactly same skills and gear as me''. In TSW, Mixing of skills and a wide selection of clothes to wear will make it easier than ever to feel unique.
This game has an infinitely better chance at getting my dollar then SWTOR does because of not being another "My toon does THIS, anybody need THIS? LFG" style game. I am so sick an tired of the rigidly defined class systems, and with developers making things easier for the less capable people (a.k.a. I make bunk builds and whine about it) the classes become simpler and more defined. I think it's great that I can define my own style of playing my character, and change it up if I decide to try a different role. I honestly would hope that it is impossible to figure out the best way to do things, just for the challenge of trying to.
I don't need the developer telling me how to play my toon. I don't need the game telling me how to play my toon. I don't need a website telling me how to play my toon. I am going to play a game to have fun, and if the game doesn't allow me to do that, then I'm not interested.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
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Nah. Eliminate the artificial grind, give everyone all the skills they can earn and let them have at it. They'll figure out what they're good at, and then that's what they'll do.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Its a core game mechanic. Following the press embargo lift this week one of the gaming websites talked about a boss encounter where everyone in the party switched on the fly to a rdps spec and use environmental cover as it made that particular encounter work better.
I cant completely disagree with this, but as others have said .. surely there are better things to do than collect 500 skills ... ideally it would be feasibly impossible .. time wise .. for most people to do so? Pure conjecture .. but I would imagine the focus would be on predeterming a "main" role and "off" roll to an extent and for a small number of die hards .. being able to do 3 or more rolls.
I guess my point is I could see it working despite your reservations .. but it's pure conjecture on my part.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
OP is overthinking skills in TSW. Leave the skill system be, its simple and elegant and FAR superior to all the spoonfed handholding class crap we've been fed for years. Also keep in mind that there will be archetype templates available for people who need some spoonfeeding and handholding.
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
You really should rephrase the above to, Everyone CAN be the same.
The reviews that came out this week mention that there's currently 588 skills now available at launch. Not because everyone can learn everything that everyone will.
I dont have much interests in healing and i probably wont want to spend those points until much later if i ever max those skills. To say that everyone will be the same is quite wrong. For every player that will play the game there will be different ways to spend those points.
That's on skills alone, but there are Chakras that boost your stats, not everyone will have the same chakras loadout. Then there is the clothing that will make your character look unique. So honestly i dont see why you think that your character will look even remotely the same as every other one. Anyway, not like they would change the core mechanic this close to release.
It all depends on how much work it takes to gain skills, if its a good amount of time, then it won't be a problem, if its super quick, then it may be a problem...I would think it would be slow enough to make too much branching out impractical for most.
No! Class systems are old and boring! I love skill based systems like Darkfall where you only need one character and can do whatever you want with them. I've been waiting for something like this to come along for a long, long time.
The game 'telling you' how to play your toon and having fun arent mutually exclusive. The only way you can know for certain if you will have fun is if you actually play the game and then decide from there. All games allow you to have fun, its a matter of whether or not you're able (or willing) to find it.
Doesn't the 'wheel thing' mean that despite having the same skills you will be more adept at a certain paystyle dependant on where you put your points?
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
AH so I see you fear that your choices along the way actualy do matter and nobody holds your hand while growing your character ?
Finaly a game where your choices and action define who you are in the game world. There's not many of those.
This is one game I am waiting for.
No class role is perfect. Sick to be stuck to one "boring" job.
I don't think you have levels of skills. For instance, you won't have a level 1 or level 2 fireball, you'll just have a fireball. So the way your character works does depend on where you put your points, but not on how many points you put into a particular skill.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Specialization is good...but class based systems are NOT the only (or even best) way to do specialization.
I actualy vastly prefer skill based systems....
The key is to make sure there is some mechanic in place to limit the number of skills you can learn and have available to you at any one time.
If you can easly learn all skills in existance and instantly switch you skills on the fly....then that's going to hamstring specialization.....if not, then there really shouldn't be much of a problem.
Heck, even if your character is able to switch roles fairly easly, it doesn't mean the PLAYER will be equaly compentent at each of those roles.
For example in FPS style games (which TSW isn't but that's beside the point) where you can switch roles/kits on every spawn....most people are only really good at one or two roles. You may be able to switch instantly between a sniper and a fighter pilot....but if 95% of your play experience is with the sniper kit...chances are you are going to be a pretty crappy pilot when you try to play one. That of course assumes that the mechanics are complex enough that it takes some skill/experience to get good at playing....and that the roles play substantialy different from one another.
Star Wars Galaxies was skill-based, though different than TSW. You had something like 23 main profession skill trees, and you could dabble in as few or as many of them as you wanted to build your character. What ended up happening for most people, was that they played the main professions and skill trees. Others loved dabbling in skill trees and building some very intersting and unique character combinations.
I don't know about the rest of you, but when I log into a major themepark MMO these days and I am given 4-5 rigid class choices, I'm instantly turned off. I know in that very moment that I will just end up being a clone of several thousand other people who click the same buttons I click to build the toon.
I wouldn't worry about having too many choices in a game like this. Most people will naturally build characters that suit them, and they will stick with it until they want something else. That is the beauty of skill-based gaming. You aren't stuck in some class handed to you by the devs. You build your own class, and you changes classes whenever you want. Along with this, you can sort of change your story and who you are.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
The problem is more with classes that there is usually one -best- build for any given class/class-role. There is only one viable Retadin spec for PVE, and everyone raiding will be playing the same spec if they want to go DPS on a paladin. There is only one viable tanking spec for warriors, etc.
Add to that gear-dependency and scaling with one "best set" (aka Tier XX) like in WoW and you got yourself everyone running around playing exactly the same character in your class, with the same talents, spells, gems and gear.
Class-systems aren't inherrently bad, but the danger of theorycrafting your way to "best build" is there, which makes the game dull like a brick of oatmeal.
TSWs system at least in theory should prevent this from happening.
Unless of course there are really useless skills, which I didn't see. Even a dumb skill like "increas light radius" that is laughed away in most games would make perfect sense in those alan wake-ish survival missions where light plays a big role.
The "flavour of the month" issue really has more to do with the lack of diversity in the variety of challenges the player is faced with rather then any sort of inherint flaw of skill based systems.
If there is really a very narrow range of challenges in a game (which is the situation with most MMO's out there today) then of course, there is going to be a very narrow range of "most effective" skill sets to deal with those challenges.
Forget even the crazy sort of variety you can get when you start dealing with magic and the supernatural... just look at historical combat....
A heavly armored knight on horseback was a serious force to be reckoned with......under the right conditions...
But let them try to fight in a marsh, or a burning hot desert, or a narrow mountain pass....or charge up a steep, constricted slope that's gone sodden with rain against an enemy that has had a chance to setup stakes in front of thier positions.
The problem with flavor of the month is that most MMO's have pretty much ZERO variety in the situations they put players in.
Doesn't need to be the case. Want to be hottest shot with an assualt rifle....cool.... won't help you much if you run into an incorporeal ghost. Want to be able to turn undead like a high level cleric in DnD.....awesome... what happens when you run into a plain old mundane street thug? Do martial arts like Bruce Lee.... great..... good luck against that thrall on the hill 200 yds away with the 50 cal machine gun on the other side of the mine field and barbed wire fence.
yeah, because there isn't a huge group of players out there bored to tears by the same old same old boring as hell EQ/WOW model and the endless stream of clones.
all kudos to the secret world designers for trying to do something different and growing their own audiance rather than trying to ride the coat tails of wow.
In EVE, every player can get every skill and fill ever role. Yet there are tons of different and unique players and the game has been functioning just fine for years.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
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I agree. While it will probably be no fun at all to balance, as long as a counter exist for every build, it will be incredibly fun to figure out what builds work in what situations.
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I don't know where your coming from thinking its a mistake. Not saying everything I think is how everything should be but I know I'm excited about having no classes. I don't know about you but I hate picking a class in a game and being limited to what I can do, I usually like to play a tank class but like to heal a good bit too, on that note I hate leveling a bunch of toons just to fulfill different roles. I like that essentially in The Secret World I can have 1 character and be able to play whatever role I want and switch between when I please, as I'm sure alot of other people feel the same way.
I also hate playing a tank sort of class and having to build myself around pve and not really being able to do crap in pvp unless I turn around and respec for damage when I feel like pvping. Atleast with an open skill system I could be in a pve sort of build and be able to turn around and swap a few things around and whala! all good and dandy.
Like stated above if they can manage to do pretty good with getting all the skills in line(or even just most) and relatively balanced shouldn't be any problem at all.
Currently Playing: Age of Conan
Personally i think people are thinking about this wrong. No classes doesnt mean you get everything all the time. it means they give you access to what you need to build your own class. your not playing a hunter or a warrior, your playing YOU. create a build that YOUR good with. people that try to tie this down to be like every other MMO are going to be horribly disappointed. This it the next Evolution of MMORPG in my opinion. you get to play what you want to play, how you want to play it. there is no point getting all 500+ skills when you can get the ones you want, the ones that you think will be effective. now of course you will be wrong about skills from time to time but that is just gaming in general. but not having that would make it a lil too easy.
Also if people havent realised it yet, your cloths are just that, cloths. this isnt a game where you run the same area 15 times to get a shiny new +8 shirt. that shirt is just a shirt, Purely asthetics.
People who think not having classes is a mistake are either too blind to see the beauty, or too old fashioned to accept change where it is due.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
You're supposed to have multiple builds and switch between them.
Dungeons have anima wells at strategic points in them for the purpose of skill swapping. In one of the walkthrough videos the entire party switches to rdps specs for one boss fight as the boss can't be tanked, you have to use cover. Having multiple specs & a horizontal expanding game is a core design element.
While your visible gear is statless, some requires you do certain things to earn them, for instance "I killed Monster X" t-shirts
There are 11 slots of visible, statless gear. But there are 7 invisible slots also for "chakras", these do have stats.
I dont think "old fashioned" is the right term, old timers from AC, UO, SWG etc.. get this concept. I think the correct phrase is "brainwashed by wow"
If you spend all the time to unlock 500 skills and get gear for each build...I am sorry but when are you actually going to be playing the game?
Or are you saying that the game is all about unlocking 500 skills and geting gear for each build? Then it is not much of a game...
On the rest of your reply I agree.
Rrigid classes give a false uniqueness sense, it is artificial, and in the big picture, make everyone less unique yes. While you may have a group of people lets say a party of 5 made up of unique Classes and roles, as a Character in the wider world of the MMO you are not unique. And I think an MMO's scope is not about a small group of 5, we can do that in any other non MMo game, like Diablo for instance, part of the Experience of an MMO is that you represent a Character that is unique in that world, and this uniqueness can only come from variety of choices available to the player, you may pick up skill 1,3,5 and another player pick up skills 2,3,5, in terms of skills you are unique, in terms of using these skills, your style, you are still unique, and on top of it you are not running in to the problem of style and class conflicts.
Like for instance in a game with rigid classes, if you choose to play a given class that has an associated role with it, you are also expected, more often than not, to play it within a generally accepted fashion and style, independently if that matches your own style or not.
While in a game with no rigid classes, you are going to be expected to fulllfill the role you choose on a per adventure basis (offering you the flexibility to assume a diffferent role next time) yet still be able to play the character according to your style as long as you fullfill your role in an acceptable manner.
Examples if you choose to play a healer for a specific adventure, as long as you heal and the party is not wiping it does not matter how you do it.
While in a game with rigid classes, you will always have people telling yopu "why didn;t you use this spell before that spell, and this order in this timing" you are expected to play it according to certain style which may not necessarilly be natural to you, and that is never fun to have that added pressure in a game. You are suposed to be having fun with other players, not being pressured by other players.
So personally i think that a classeless system is good, and roles can still exist yet everyone has the opportunity to interchange these roles as they feel to have fun and as they themselves prefer to fulfill these roles. Much more flexibility offered which permits to focus on the task at hand in the game rather than focus on meta game drama.
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ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard