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What does it mean for the world to be alive? *video*
sanosukex
Member Posts: 1,836
One of my biggest complaints in this game is the lifeless world. Now a lot of people have shot back and had either no idea what I was talking about or didn't understand what I mean. Instead of making a list of things here are two videos that are a good indication of what I'm trying to express. For me the world around you helps you be more invloved in the story. Biowares biggest pitch for this game is the immersive story, but why did they try so hard to make the player feel so disconnected from the world rather than a part of it?
Showing the conan video to mostly show how much just little atmospheric touches can bring so much life to a world. In the star wars one although a lot more is going in the video everything just feels very lifeless(to me at least)
anyway video one is Age of Conan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAaoFQfV55k&feature=related
second one is star wars watch both in 1080p for best effect
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5jpm6og5U4&feature=related
EDIT
adding in a third video showing more star wars footage. Here you can see overall the game looks very good but aside from the air traffic nothing much is going on anywhere accept the one hanger area that a battle is going on(but there should be more of this.. a lot more of this)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_l7SxrkKok
EDIT VIDEO *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8om1WhLCeHE&feature=related* more accuratley shows my problem with the lifeless NPCs and how so many are just grouped in set spots.
Edit Newest VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpE3RRLD7qU&feature=related this one is guild wars 2. I think a lot of what guild wars 2 accomplishes(in the video) with its cities could be applied to aspects of SWTOR to add another level of immersion to the game.
now i'm not talking at all about the graphics quality at all its more the "feel" of the world if you will.
EDIT: Also there is nothing I see in the AoC video I don't believe star wars engine couldn't do aside from some lighting effects. Just how everything sways with the wind feels so natural. How the creatures at least walk around little more naturally than just being in groups of 3 placed in set spots...
Comments
Alive might be the wrong choice of words then because the world is alive, I think most people have a hardtime getting use to there GFX style and I can agree that the cartoon style can take away from that "Alive" feeling, alive is not the right choice of words IMO.
I know many people will have different answers for what makes a world feel more alive to them.
1) For me the biggest thing is feeling like something is happening when you are not playing. If a game has a deep crafting system, or a system that feeds into a decent economy, that can be a part of a world feeling alive because stuff is happening when you aren't there. if nothing at all changes from the last time you logged in, then you don't feel like you could have missed out on something going on in your absence.
2) The critters running around and the way the mobs move and act is certainly a part of contributing to a living world to me because if they all act and react the exact same, then it feels too generic, or in TOR case, they move not at all.
3) Weather and day and night cycles also play into a living world to me, especially if they have an affect on the players and creatures. Just having these things in place makes the world feel like it at least changes a little.
4) A good community can also be a big part of whether or not a world feels alive. I know there is no such things as a perfect community, but if you have a game that feeds into solo play and alienation, this leads to less interaction and therefore, a less than alive world. Not to say force grouping and a crafting system as deep as FFXIV is necessary to MAKE you RELY on others, but most games don't really give an incentive to group and be a part of the communit. It's become all about the individual and instant gratification. If all the people I see running around don't need or want to interact because it is just much simpler to play alone, then the community is non existent (except between guild members) and the world feels empty without being empty.
5) And lastly, overly theme parking a game. If a game is too much on rails and you bounce from quest hub to quest hub, there is no reason to explore and engross yourself in the world as you pass it by. By rewarding exploration through some of the many ways out there such as rare or notoriouse monsters that drop worthwhile items, titles, events or mobs that only spawn at a particular place at a particular time, etc, you don't give players any reason to want to get off the beaten path. If it is just a rush, or as the argument goes with TOR, non rush and enjoy the story to get to the end game where the real game supposedly? begins, then why would I want to take too much time just enjoyig the scenery. Some can argue that they don't mind helping friends and guildies so that'll get them to revisit old areas, but adding to point 4, how often is that if the game is soo solo friendly that people really don't need help to begin with.
I am sure I can think of more but these are the top things that I have noticed missing, or poorly balanced and implemented in most of the games that I felt were hollow shells.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I can tell you what makes a world feel lifeless to me. A reality where not a single person has discovered oral communication, where instead they all pass notes to communicate, most of which notes go unread.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
I think this part of the 'lifeless world' discussion. The mobs you're supposed to kill are standing around in groups of three or more. There are very rarely mobs pacing back and forth or walking a path.
The second part is that there are areas where NPCs just stand around, or lean against walls trying to look cool.
In both cases (for me) those areas were temporary. I would not be in those areas for long so it didn't matter that much. In areas that I would be in for awhile, the NPCs are much more active and do more stuff. I think Bioware has the world separated into areas where you're going to hang out, areas for your story line and areas where you're going to pass through. In areas where you'll hang out or where your story line takes you, things are much more 'lively'. In areas where you're just going to pass through or not spend much time, things are much more static. Even in areas where you're just going to pass through, if the mob density is low, the mobs do the pacing back and forth that they do in other games.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
i'm fine with cartoon graphics I'm fine with anime style graphics, I'm fine with photo-realistic graphics but it's all the little touches a designer puts into the zones I feel makes them feel "alive" or whatever word you want to use. Whether it be the slight fog or the wind or creatures/npcs moving in natural paths. In star wars you don't really got much of that at all to top it off the color scheme they went with adds a very bland blanket over everything. AoC one big advantage is lighting effects especially with dx10. Star wars lighting is pretty bad all around no matter how high you have it cranked up. Now again this may go right over a lot of peoples heads but for me it bugs the hell out of me when I try to get into a story and go off on a quest and the world outside is so "lifeless"(in my opinion)
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
which is how I feel in every town in this game I have visited, since no one really has anything to say aside from the quest givers
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
But at least the quest givers have something to say. Outside of Tortage in AoC, nobody in any currently released MMO has *anything* to say. The worlds are all populated by mutes.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
very much agree with all points good writeup
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
very true, as with most MMOs. Although many at least have some npcs walking or give you a little greeting. With a game so heavily focused on voice acting you would think adding some side dialog could have been done like in skyrim for example walking up to any npc at least gives you a greeting which makes them at least feel apart of the world( i know i know comparing to single player game but I don't see this above the realm of possibilities)
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
In SWTOR I noticed there are some unclickable people around. Now that's just bad form, Bioware.I don't know why, but it annoys me to no end. Now, there's no collision detection, and when you can't click on NPCs on top of that, it's like they're just textures.
There are various ways to bring a virtual world to life. They're called events.
Events are something that interacts with the player whether it's looking at the world, hearing sound effects, interacting with other players (I don't want to use the word interact here because really EVERYTHING is interacting with you. ALL events are interacting with you in some way), trading with other players, seeing other players and what they are doing, communicating with other players, watching NPC players and what THEY are doing, and so on. Even wind effects can make a world feel alive. Wind is probably the best way to make a world feel alive since air is associated with breathing.
Skyrim has loads and loads of wind effects such as leaves falling through branches, snow blowing in mountaintops, rain and snow weather effects, and volumetric clouds that simulate wind blowing them around. Flowing rivers also help make a world feel more alive instead of just water that sits still.
For a virtual world to feel alive you don't want to overdo it also. You don't want to flood the human player who is experiencing all of this stuff to feel a sensory overload (unless that's the whole point, like in Skyrim when the dragon attacks Helgen in the beginning, the developers actually TRIED to overload your senses to cause the player into a panic and to experience fear). Likewise it is very important in a massively multiplayer game to not make the world too large so that you can't find other players that well and if the world doesn't have enough events going on it can feel lifeless. Even though a massively multiplayer online game will have thousands of players on one server, it's still very easy to make a mistake and overcreate your game world too big. Developers have been surprised just how much a small amount of room can work better than a bigger one like only using a little bit of dressing in a salad can go a very long way. Massively Multiplayer Onlines and multiplayer games in general of the past have proven, however, that graphics, sound, and NPCs aren't even needed in a game that has enough players to contribute all the interaction anyone needs to play a game and enjoy it as long as the players can find each other and play with each other well enough. That's why instances and game worlds that are too large hurt game worlds by taking players out of the world or players not able to find each other or having to travel too large a distance to reach each other.
agreed and feel in this regard the worlds I have visited so far in the game have failed on this concept. Never in any starter planet did i feel anything was going on around me. So many static placed npcs doing the same thing over and over, never felt like any sort of "event" or anything was really happening. Even rift did it better in the starter areas in this regard.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
I think the OP means (dynamic world) immersive or heavily scripted, game such as Tabula Rasa.
yes guess I could probably of used dynamic world instead of alive. But essentially yes that's what I'm getting at. When you think star wars you think of an immersive universe with a lot going on but this is not what I have experienced at all in the early stages of the game.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
The thing that bothered me most is no day/night cycle, tons and tons of unclickable NPCs that never said a word, just took up space, and the lack of NPC idle actions. Everyone is standing, unmoving, all the time.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
I don't mind the day/night not being there just the fact that unless they make it so everyone goes home or to the cantina at night ala skyrim it feels just as artificial. But all the static npcs bother me as well. Especially walking into a cantina nothing feels like its going on. All the people at the tables are either not doing a thing or do the same emote over and over like the wookie who gets up and waves his arms then sits down and just does this in a loop over and over
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Backgrounds in the distance your avatar cannot actually visit is not a good thing. That said, I wish TOR all the best on launch day.
Thought tabula rasa had the most alive game world, I dont think swtor's is as good but at least its there
Never played AoC or beta tested SWTOR so I'm neutral but from your videos I am much more fond of the peaceful walk in AoC than the fight in SWTOR. SWTOR has a plastic dead world, AoC looks simply great and realistic.
feels like that 150$ million goes to waste when you end up with a shell of a world. Its one of the reasons i dislike the game and makes it hard to play. and the graphics have nothing to do with it, its just the game feels so on rails that the "on rails" space game it almost a welcome escape. For an Ip that is so well fleshed out like Star Wars its just sort of a let down
that's one of the things that bothers me so much money put into this game yet doesn't feel like a whole lot of anything going on.. I dunno I'm going to play mainly cause I need my MMO fix(been like 4 months heh) and I love star wars but just don't see this one going the distance like I was hoping.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Well whether a game feels alive or not is up to the consumer. Whether all of the events in SW:TOR actually make it feel alive or not is an artistic preference thing.
To be fair you should still look for IS the world alive. Look how many events are going on in both videos and you'll see that both have many of the same events going on.
But now I'll give my personal opinion and say I did like the Age of Conan video more. That's just what my feelings told me.
An example from swtor...
Random area, 20 groups of 3 enemies standing still on set locations. Doing nothing but waiting. Nothing is happening in the area, except 60 retards standing around in the middle of nowhere, doing nothing. Not moving, not anything.
That really bugs me about many areas of swtor. Having set places for the enemies with no movement.
If that does not feel dead, then I dont know what does.
Total lack of voiceover and cutscenes feels pretty dead.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.