So by that definition any single player game with mod tools is a sandbox?
Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2?
Dragon Age : Origins?
Hell before Empire Total War had a near unmoddable Campaign map. The Total War series is a sandbox.
Does content respawn in Skyrim like F3/FNV?
Because if yes, its a goddam themepark.
Minecraft is a sandbox, minecraft has mod tools in game.
Skyrim is a themepark. You can't even keep a damm cave clear for more than 3? days.
You go to a Themepark and you can ride any ride you want in any order. So why people use it to mean linear game play is beyond me. Unless you people have been to some really wierd Themeparks.
OMG you didn't read my post clearly. I explicitly said that Skyrim for me is an open-world and open ended game. What I mentioned was how the sandbox description came to be...
AS I HAVE SAID:
SKYRIM IS AN OPEN-WORLD AND OPEN-ENDED GAME
THE CREATION KIT TOOLS GAVE IT ITS SANDBOX FEATURE
Did I say that it was a sandbox solely because of the creation kit? Maybe you can read through the lines and see what I'm trying to say: TES series as open-world and open-ended games coupled with their creation tools made people perceive them as sandbox games.
I believe through and through I have never failed to say that what I said was an opinion as to how TES series came to be described sandboxes. I never said that this will be the case too for other games.
Now if you want a definition of a sandbox, maybe you can check what I have said. With how people started to describe TES games as sandbox games, maybe the cause of all of this are two components:
open-ended + open-world
tools to shape the world (NOT NECESSARILY AN EXTERNAL PROGRAM AS YOU SUGGEST, BUT THE IMPLICATION AND IMPRESSION THAT YOU CAN CHANGE THE GAME WORLD)
Maybe these two features make up what people perceive to be sandbox games.
So by that definition any single player game with mod tools is a sandbox?
Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2?
Dragon Age : Origins?
Hell before Empire Total War had a near unmoddable Campaign map. The Total War series is a sandbox.
Does content respawn in Skyrim like F3/FNV?
Because if yes, its a goddam themepark.
Minecraft is a sandbox, minecraft has mod tools in game.
Skyrim is a themepark. You can't even keep a damm cave clear for more than 3? days.
You go to a Themepark and you can ride any ride you want in any order. So why people use it to mean linear game play is beyond me. Unless you people have been to some really wierd Themeparks.
In Minecraft, zombies and creepers respawn...must be a themepark
It just baffles me how some people give emphasis on the independent components of a system, with which they judge the whole system by the weakness or strength of its individual components while ironically disregarding the fact that the way these independent components interact with each other defines the system itself.
Well, not not really, as generally accepted by a large number of MMORPG players, sandbox games have skill based systems, and generally eschew levels or classes.
Again, skill based progression instead of levels -> open world game, not sandbox. Most games with sandbox tools are open world games, but not every open world game is automatically a sandbox. There is no intrinsic connection between sandbox tools and character progression mode. Those are different categories.
And please be carefull with generalizations like that. A large number of MMO players, by what count? Generally accepted? Because a bunch of people on some forum keeps misusing the term?
Skyrim does have a few sandbox features that for sure but its not a full sandbox as you cant do everything you want to.
Good examples of proper Sandbox RPGs/MMORPGs are Xyson, Wurm Online, Ultima Online.. they are jsut a few that are out there at the moment.
In my view a true Sandbox can you should basically be able to do what you want, skill up how you want to skill up, build where you want to build, pvp when you want to pvp, loot everything off people, craft anything available in game, open world, basically do waht you want not follow a set path..
Thats my idea of a Sandbox game your basically free to do waht you want..
Games like EQ, WoW, Age of Conan and so on can not be counted as sandbox games as you are locked in to what you can do.. your objective is to reach end game and then raid for gear thats it, sure you can do a bit of crafting and in some of them there is playing housing but its all fixed. They might have some similar features to a sandbox game but this does not make them a sandbox.
OP, I don't think people can explain it any better than a few posters on here have. If a game is open, not putting restrictions or penalties on players for going off the preferred path a designer set, it can be considered a sandbox.
Taking WoW and Ultima for example. In WoW, if you stray from the set path (aka quest hubs that string you along), you will be gimped for experience and quest rewards for your levels because the game was designed for you to follow that path. You can just grind mobs without quests, sure. But the game doesn't encourage it for a reason.
In Ultima, you can explore anywhere from the start. There is no determined path for leveling. I can go to a graveyard and train a weapon while gathering reagents for my mage, or hunt on adequate animals for hide and not be penalized.
That alone can make a game be considered a sandbox. It's not the only thing, though. World interactivity can classify a game as a sandbox. Non instanced housing, for example. Some consider useful crafting and no levels as a requirement, but it's entirely subjective (I for example don't consider those requirements).
But if a game penalizes you for straying off the preferred path, it's NOT a sandbox. That is the biggest factor for me. An MMORPG will always have more freedom compared to single player games, it's just in there design choice. WoW may let you run in the open world, but your not getting use out of a majority of the zones if your not in there level range.
Why do you always try to oversimplify things in your posts?
There are no simple answers.
Sandbox means different things to different people. For example the folks at MMORPG consider Star Wars to be an MMO, while I do not.
There is no black. There is no white. There is only grey.
Skyrim appears to be a Single Player Sandbox. I haven't played it yet so I wouldn't know.
SW:TOR is not a sandbox. It does not have open worlds. If it were, Corusant would be bigger than everything in WoW, 3 - 4 times over. Not practical I understand .. but as it is if Corusant in the movies or in any sane person's imagination was NYC, Corusant in SWTOR is like a hut in backwoods Alabama somewhere.
Again I cant speak to Skyrim so I used SWTOR as an example.
The different in skills you bring up is equally as obvious if you implore some thought. A mage in WoW cannot learn to cast corruption. A player in TSW that has fireballs, frost novas and arcane blasts can still learn to cast corruption.
The main difference for me between sandbox and themepark is freedom. themepark pigeonholes you into very specific characters that go along very specific paths within a game world. A sandbox does not do this.
BINGO, my brotha!
With Skyrim, I can go where I want, when I want, do what I want. I can develop my character how I see fit, provided I put the time, effort, and likely resources into it. I can acquire housing (something MMORPGs used to do)... several in Skyrim as a matter of fact... and decorate to my tastes. A bit frustrating sometimes with the godawful UI, but it's possible. My character can get married. I can choose to support the Stormcloak Rebels, the Empire, nobody, or just be a murderer who doesn't care at all. I can choose to follow the main quest or not, nothing forces me either way. You can pick up ingredients throughout the game to make food, potions, items. Hell, with Skyrim, the crafting system has a way to upgrade your gear with the proper resources and character skill.
Skyrim's more a Sandbox than the majority of MMORPGs on this site's Game List put together.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I notice from over the net, that many people feel that Skyrim is a Sandbox because it has a "Open World".
But this confuses me. if Sandboxs are defined by having a "Open World" or not, than shouldnt we also consider all MMORPGs to also be Sandboxes, since they all have open persistent worlds (of course we excluding the CORPGs because thats a different genre of gaming the just share this site)
based of these flawed views I have seen on this, it has to be asked again. What do you define a Sandbox RPG as?
Cant say Player housing, because many MMO which commonly are considered Non sandbox also have this feature.
well how about a Skill System?
Truth of the matter is, a Skill System and a Class system are pretty much the same deal. But instead of having many different classes with unique skills, you have a Single parent class with many skills within it.
Take for example Skyrim's skill system vs Rift's skill system.
The Classes in Rift, regulate which armor and weapons I can wear, as well as which Trees I get and which spells I can possibly get.
While in Skyrim
I get access to all Trees, all Weapons, all Armor, and all Skills (excluding tree skills of course)
well with the Skyrim example, thats pretty much the same thing as having 1 parent class instead of having 4 parent classes like Rift does.
imagine if Rift had only 1 class combined. it would offer all armor,weapon, spell, trees, just like the access I get in Skyrim.
how does this make it a sandbox?
well maybe its the player made contents right.
So is Eve == to NWN? or Second Life?
fill me in here. what do you consider player made contents? players setting up a server wide event would be play made contents, correct? whats stopping you from doing that in the so called "Non Sandbox MMO"?
Sandbox == Exploration?
well whats stopping you from exploring in Everquest, WoW, Rift, etc?
seems like many of these checklist limits, are mentally self inflicted.
But hey, what you think?
Going to try to take a stab at this. I can't compare Skyrim to Darkfall because I have never played Darkfall. However, I want to try to point out things that make Skyrim a "world/sandbox" and not a "themepark".
1. Nearly everything I do in Skyrim in the order I choose:
Other than skilling up 1-2-3-4-5 and the main questlines ( just the fact that they have an order to them ) the order I do things will determine who/what I am.
Example 1) There are several "story" threads that go on in Skyrim and it is based on the state of those questlines and thus the state of the world ( and you ) as to what you will get at any time. For example, if i progress one more than the other, the world is in a certain state and thus my interaction with the world will be at that "time".
Its as if you have several wheels on the wall and given the turning of each of those wheels to a position I choose the world will be in a certain state ( hence the sandbox feel because its really MY interaction with the world that determines MY experience not that of a game designers.
2. This is not only, i have acess to an area, which is somewhat themepark design, but the state of areas / towns and how they are affected by the outside world determine your experience.
This leads to replayability - think about do i go imperial or stormcloak ( for those that are in skyrim ) and think how:
NPC interaction is different
Your relationship with NPCs and towns you may have a home in is/are different. For example, my first character I went stormcloak and I had a house in Whiterun, well the Jarl of whiterun was not pleased to see me storming and killing his soldiers when we assaulted whiterun.
In an mmo sense they have abstracted this out with "factions". Factions can be interesting and "sandboxy" if they matter. For example things I do change the way the world sees me, some kill me, some etc etc... Howver, in most cases, there is little to no reason to "stick with a faction" for example. There should be ways to say align myself with a faction for as long as i want.
MMOs for the mostpart have small quest hubs that you build a faction score with said faction, but it is rarely something you can "align" with throughout the game. Typically they are attached to an area. Well what if i could:
a. take residence in that area
b. travel elsewhere and bring rewards / trinkets / things from my travels to benefit my said faction or town ?
3. Skills - the skill system is certainly sandbox-y. Players are not filtered down class paths and can mix/match choose how to play
There are many ways to achieve the same thing.
I can be super oober potion person and just say ehh with enchanting. Or I can go crazy with armorsmithing and make / upgrade / etc armors.
I personally have done a hybrid ( a bit of enchanting, a bit of potions, a bit of armorsmithing ) and I am keeping myself outfitted mostly from crafted armor + enchants ( with a quest/drop item or 2 ). Again, my choice, my combinations but still a character that can tackle content ( i play on expert ) without a problem.
I am a bow / some magic / light armor / enchanter / alchemist / armorsmith. I created this combination becasue this is what felt right for me and fun. It was not dictated by a class, or a specific order of leveling a class.
The interesting piece is how enchanting and alchemy can really impact everyting ( add spell power / abilitty / heal self / do magic damages ) etc... This is not something that you see in MMOs for the mostpart because these skills really impact everything and your choice of doing say more alchemy or more enchanting is yours and does really
5. Time exists - towns change and things evolve over time. This from what I have seen really involves what you have done and what questlines you have completed etc... but seeing whiterun "change hands" as the first part of my Stormcloak questline really set a lightbulb off in my head about MMOs and how:
a. We have little to no impact on the world as it is. ( in most MMOs especially themeparks )
b. the multiplayer problem - everyone can't effect the world with such impact. - this is true to some degree but I think if you took a game like Skyrim and said what can we "socialize" or - what can we do with feature X or content piece Y to multiplayer-it and decide "will it work?" I think you could have an interesting game
Here is an example- Limited # of spell tomes - limit the amount of spell tomes ( to teach spells ) to be found in the world owned by players - you could "charge access to it, your guild can have a library, others could be invited to library etc.. )
----
In the end this caused me to go back and think about why I started playing MMOs in the first place. The thought was, "I want to walk around in and interact in and "live" in a world of <Insert Lore Here>.
That for me was the draw and I have begun to realize that basically all new-ish AAA titles are not that at all and lacking a world that is immersive, that reacts to us and we to it and provides sandbox-y elements that allow me to play/interact the way I wish to.
Today what you have is:
"everyone should be able to have the same rewards given each interaction style/type" well this a problem, it is not possible to make an interesting world when each outcome is "balanced" or the same. Thus this greatly limits the abilty to provide a sandbox style MMo.
Comments
OMG you didn't read my post clearly. I explicitly said that Skyrim for me is an open-world and open ended game. What I mentioned was how the sandbox description came to be...
AS I HAVE SAID:
SKYRIM IS AN OPEN-WORLD AND OPEN-ENDED GAME
THE CREATION KIT TOOLS GAVE IT ITS SANDBOX FEATURE
Did I say that it was a sandbox solely because of the creation kit? Maybe you can read through the lines and see what I'm trying to say: TES series as open-world and open-ended games coupled with their creation tools made people perceive them as sandbox games.
I believe through and through I have never failed to say that what I said was an opinion as to how TES series came to be described sandboxes. I never said that this will be the case too for other games.
----------------------------------------------------
Now if you want a definition of a sandbox, maybe you can check what I have said. With how people started to describe TES games as sandbox games, maybe the cause of all of this are two components:
open-ended + open-world
tools to shape the world (NOT NECESSARILY AN EXTERNAL PROGRAM AS YOU SUGGEST, BUT THE IMPLICATION AND IMPRESSION THAT YOU CAN CHANGE THE GAME WORLD)
Maybe these two features make up what people perceive to be sandbox games.
My Blog About Hellgate Global, an ARPG/FPS hybrid MMO:
http://kashiewannaplay.wordpress.com/
Hellgate Global Official Fan Blog
http://t3funhellgate.wordpress.com/
Currently Playing: Hellgate Global, LoL, Skyrim, Morrowind
Recently Played: Cardmon Hero, Cabal, Oblivion
In Minecraft, zombies and creepers respawn...must be a themepark
It just baffles me how some people give emphasis on the independent components of a system, with which they judge the whole system by the weakness or strength of its individual components while ironically disregarding the fact that the way these independent components interact with each other defines the system itself.
My Blog About Hellgate Global, an ARPG/FPS hybrid MMO:
http://kashiewannaplay.wordpress.com/
Hellgate Global Official Fan Blog
http://t3funhellgate.wordpress.com/
Currently Playing: Hellgate Global, LoL, Skyrim, Morrowind
Recently Played: Cardmon Hero, Cabal, Oblivion
Again, skill based progression instead of levels -> open world game, not sandbox. Most games with sandbox tools are open world games, but not every open world game is automatically a sandbox. There is no intrinsic connection between sandbox tools and character progression mode. Those are different categories.
And please be carefull with generalizations like that. A large number of MMO players, by what count? Generally accepted? Because a bunch of people on some forum keeps misusing the term?
aint read everything here but to the OP...
Skyrim does have a few sandbox features that for sure but its not a full sandbox as you cant do everything you want to.
Good examples of proper Sandbox RPGs/MMORPGs are Xyson, Wurm Online, Ultima Online.. they are jsut a few that are out there at the moment.
In my view a true Sandbox can you should basically be able to do what you want, skill up how you want to skill up, build where you want to build, pvp when you want to pvp, loot everything off people, craft anything available in game, open world, basically do waht you want not follow a set path..
Thats my idea of a Sandbox game your basically free to do waht you want..
Games like EQ, WoW, Age of Conan and so on can not be counted as sandbox games as you are locked in to what you can do.. your objective is to reach end game and then raid for gear thats it, sure you can do a bit of crafting and in some of them there is playing housing but its all fixed. They might have some similar features to a sandbox game but this does not make them a sandbox.
OP, I don't think people can explain it any better than a few posters on here have. If a game is open, not putting restrictions or penalties on players for going off the preferred path a designer set, it can be considered a sandbox.
Taking WoW and Ultima for example. In WoW, if you stray from the set path (aka quest hubs that string you along), you will be gimped for experience and quest rewards for your levels because the game was designed for you to follow that path. You can just grind mobs without quests, sure. But the game doesn't encourage it for a reason.
In Ultima, you can explore anywhere from the start. There is no determined path for leveling. I can go to a graveyard and train a weapon while gathering reagents for my mage, or hunt on adequate animals for hide and not be penalized.
That alone can make a game be considered a sandbox. It's not the only thing, though. World interactivity can classify a game as a sandbox. Non instanced housing, for example. Some consider useful crafting and no levels as a requirement, but it's entirely subjective (I for example don't consider those requirements).
But if a game penalizes you for straying off the preferred path, it's NOT a sandbox. That is the biggest factor for me. An MMORPG will always have more freedom compared to single player games, it's just in there design choice. WoW may let you run in the open world, but your not getting use out of a majority of the zones if your not in there level range.
BINGO, my brotha!
With Skyrim, I can go where I want, when I want, do what I want. I can develop my character how I see fit, provided I put the time, effort, and likely resources into it. I can acquire housing (something MMORPGs used to do)... several in Skyrim as a matter of fact... and decorate to my tastes. A bit frustrating sometimes with the godawful UI, but it's possible. My character can get married. I can choose to support the Stormcloak Rebels, the Empire, nobody, or just be a murderer who doesn't care at all. I can choose to follow the main quest or not, nothing forces me either way. You can pick up ingredients throughout the game to make food, potions, items. Hell, with Skyrim, the crafting system has a way to upgrade your gear with the proper resources and character skill.
Skyrim's more a Sandbox than the majority of MMORPGs on this site's Game List put together.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Going to try to take a stab at this. I can't compare Skyrim to Darkfall because I have never played Darkfall. However, I want to try to point out things that make Skyrim a "world/sandbox" and not a "themepark".
1. Nearly everything I do in Skyrim in the order I choose:
Other than skilling up 1-2-3-4-5 and the main questlines ( just the fact that they have an order to them ) the order I do things will determine who/what I am.
Example 1) There are several "story" threads that go on in Skyrim and it is based on the state of those questlines and thus the state of the world ( and you ) as to what you will get at any time. For example, if i progress one more than the other, the world is in a certain state and thus my interaction with the world will be at that "time".
Its as if you have several wheels on the wall and given the turning of each of those wheels to a position I choose the world will be in a certain state ( hence the sandbox feel because its really MY interaction with the world that determines MY experience not that of a game designers.
2. This is not only, i have acess to an area, which is somewhat themepark design, but the state of areas / towns and how they are affected by the outside world determine your experience.
This leads to replayability - think about do i go imperial or stormcloak ( for those that are in skyrim ) and think how:
NPC interaction is different
Your relationship with NPCs and towns you may have a home in is/are different. For example, my first character I went stormcloak and I had a house in Whiterun, well the Jarl of whiterun was not pleased to see me storming and killing his soldiers when we assaulted whiterun.
In an mmo sense they have abstracted this out with "factions". Factions can be interesting and "sandboxy" if they matter. For example things I do change the way the world sees me, some kill me, some etc etc... Howver, in most cases, there is little to no reason to "stick with a faction" for example. There should be ways to say align myself with a faction for as long as i want.
MMOs for the mostpart have small quest hubs that you build a faction score with said faction, but it is rarely something you can "align" with throughout the game. Typically they are attached to an area. Well what if i could:
a. take residence in that area
b. travel elsewhere and bring rewards / trinkets / things from my travels to benefit my said faction or town ?
3. Skills - the skill system is certainly sandbox-y. Players are not filtered down class paths and can mix/match choose how to play
There are many ways to achieve the same thing.
I can be super oober potion person and just say ehh with enchanting. Or I can go crazy with armorsmithing and make / upgrade / etc armors.
I personally have done a hybrid ( a bit of enchanting, a bit of potions, a bit of armorsmithing ) and I am keeping myself outfitted mostly from crafted armor + enchants ( with a quest/drop item or 2 ). Again, my choice, my combinations but still a character that can tackle content ( i play on expert ) without a problem.
I am a bow / some magic / light armor / enchanter / alchemist / armorsmith. I created this combination becasue this is what felt right for me and fun. It was not dictated by a class, or a specific order of leveling a class.
The interesting piece is how enchanting and alchemy can really impact everyting ( add spell power / abilitty / heal self / do magic damages ) etc... This is not something that you see in MMOs for the mostpart because these skills really impact everything and your choice of doing say more alchemy or more enchanting is yours and does really
5. Time exists - towns change and things evolve over time. This from what I have seen really involves what you have done and what questlines you have completed etc... but seeing whiterun "change hands" as the first part of my Stormcloak questline really set a lightbulb off in my head about MMOs and how:
a. We have little to no impact on the world as it is. ( in most MMOs especially themeparks )
b. the multiplayer problem - everyone can't effect the world with such impact. - this is true to some degree but I think if you took a game like Skyrim and said what can we "socialize" or - what can we do with feature X or content piece Y to multiplayer-it and decide "will it work?" I think you could have an interesting game
Here is an example- Limited # of spell tomes - limit the amount of spell tomes ( to teach spells ) to be found in the world owned by players - you could "charge access to it, your guild can have a library, others could be invited to library etc.. )
----
In the end this caused me to go back and think about why I started playing MMOs in the first place. The thought was, "I want to walk around in and interact in and "live" in a world of <Insert Lore Here>.
That for me was the draw and I have begun to realize that basically all new-ish AAA titles are not that at all and lacking a world that is immersive, that reacts to us and we to it and provides sandbox-y elements that allow me to play/interact the way I wish to.
Today what you have is:
"everyone should be able to have the same rewards given each interaction style/type" well this a problem, it is not possible to make an interesting world when each outcome is "balanced" or the same. Thus this greatly limits the abilty to provide a sandbox style MMo.