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The 'Group Play vs Solo Play in an MMO' Thread

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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675

    Originally posted by Palebane

    Where do you draw the line though? Eventually players will want the runs to be just as fast with even a poor group. Then they will want the runs to be just as fast if you are solo. I don't think groupers are necesarily arguing for exluding solo gameplay, they seem to be simply trying not to become excluded themselves. If everyone is soloing, it becomes very hard to find groups, in my experience.

    That's really the problem though, you don't have people grouping because they like to group, but because they get extra rewards.  People usually solo because that's what they enjoy doing, not because they get any bonuses for doing it.  So many groupers, though, only group because they want extra and exclusive crap, they don't care about being in a group, just benefiting from being in a group.

    People who enjoy grouping for the sake of grouping wouldn't give a damn about extra rewards, they'd do it just because they enjoyed grouping and there would be no problem finding people to group with.

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  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect Member UncommonPosts: 1,243

    Originally posted by Cephus404

    That's really the problem though, you don't have people grouping because they like to group, but because they get extra rewards.  People usually solo because that's what they enjoy doing, not because they get any bonuses for doing it.  So many groupers, though, only group because they want extra and exclusive crap, they don't care about being in a group, just benefiting from being in a group.

    People who enjoy grouping for the sake of grouping wouldn't give a damn about extra rewards, they'd do it just because they enjoyed grouping and there would be no problem finding people to group with.

    Do you ask five people to help you lift an empty box?

    Do you ask three people to play white in a game of chess?

    Do you play three DVD's at the same time and try and watch them all?

    Your mind tells you to lift the box on your own, to ask one person to play as white, to watch one DVD instead of all at once. It's logical thinking, common sense. The same applies to MMO's. If the game is built in such a way that you can do everything solo, then by all logic and sense you go through that content solo. You CAN group, in the same sense that you CAN ask five people to help you lift an empty box. Your mind just naturally tells you to do it alone.

    And so if there isn't content for groups to do, then people will continue playing the game as it's given to them. Rewards for group content are generally better because of the increased difficulty. You don't pay people a minimum wage for doing a tougher job - well, my boss does but he's an <censored>.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675

    All you're doing is proving that most people really don't like to group, they need to be pushed into it, bribed or penalized for not doing it.  Otherwise, people just don't group for the pure enjoyment of grouping.

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  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect Member UncommonPosts: 1,243

    Originally posted by Cephus404

    All you're doing is proving that most people really don't like to group, they need to be pushed into it, bribed or penalized for not doing it.  Otherwise, people just don't group for the pure enjoyment of grouping.

    People perform the tasks that have been given to them in the most logical way they can. It's not a case of like or dislike, it's about playing the game in the way it's been designed to be played. Much like a Racing game has you go around the track a number of times, you wouldn't go the wrong way around that track because it's a) not going to win the game and b) it's going against game design. Though it might be a laugh one or twice.

    Same principle with MMO's. If the game has been designed in a way where you can solo the entire time, people aren't going to group up 'because they can', they'll do what the game is asking them to do. To group in a solo environment is like going backwards around that racing track. It makes no logical sense to group up when the game is telling you to 'go over there and hand this message to JohnnyNPC_1'.

  • johanan12johanan12 Member Posts: 49

    Well, since we are in MMORPG.COM it only means one thing "MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLEPLAYING GAME" meaning group play. People who play's MMORPG like to play with other people unlike those who play in consoles.

    image
  • QuesaQuesa Member UncommonPosts: 1,432

    Originally posted by johanan12

    Well, since we are in MMORPG.COM it only means one thing "MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLEPLAYING GAME" meaning group play. People who play's MMORPG like to play with other people unlike those who play in consoles.

    MMORPG just means its a role playing game with alot of people online at the same time, people just like to amend the definition.

    Star Citizen Referral Code: STAR-DPBM-Z2P4
  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect Member UncommonPosts: 1,243

    Originally posted by Quesa

    Originally posted by johanan12

    Well, since we are in MMORPG.COM it only means one thing "MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLEPLAYING GAME" meaning group play. People who play's MMORPG like to play with other people unlike those who play in consoles.

    MMORPG just means its a role playing game with alot of people online at the same time, people just like to amend the definition.

    Really? And where did this definition come from, exactly? Let's take a look at what Wikipedia has to say:

     

    MMOGs

    MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world.

    MMORPGs

    Massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) is a genre of role-playing video games in which a very large number of players interact with one another within a virtual game world.

     

    I see cooperate, compete, interact, but nowhere do I see mention of people who just happen to be on the same server, not needing to do any of those activities. So what about single player? Modern MMO's are catering massively to solo play, so what does wikipedia have to say about single player games:

     

    Single Player Games

    single-player video game is a video game where input from only one player is expected throughout the course of the gaming session. The major selling points of larger single-player games are interesting storylines, impressive graphics, and realistic non-player characters and opponents. Selling points of the smaller games are low learning curve and availability (many are free to play on various sites).

     

    Modern MMO's require input from only one player through most of the game, has started to include interesting storylines such as the upcoming Old Republic, the graphics are getting better, though the opponents still fall short. They also have a low learning curve and are becoming free to play almost everywhere.

    Hmm.. So what does that tell us? It tells us what a lot of the pro-groupers have said in this thread. That MMO's are slowly becoming Massively Single Player games, that interaction and cooperation is almost completely gone, and that the worlds we used to know and love are following single player game development ideas and becoming personal storylines and low difficulty.

    To remove grouping, to increase the amount of soloing, and to give solo options to end game just brings MMORPGs closer and closer to single player games. MMORPGs are dying. To be pro-solo is to be pro the death of a genre.

  • sapphensapphen Member UncommonPosts: 911

    Originally posted by UsualSuspect

    I see cooperate, compete, interact, but nowhere do I see mention of people who just happen to be on the same server, not needing to do any of those activities.

    Interacting with other people can happen in many different levels, I could solo the entire game, trade an item to another and it would be considered interaction.  Grouping is not directly implied in the definition no matter how we break it down.

    Claiming that pro-solo'ers is going to kill the genre is irrational and over emotional.  Your clarity on the matter is compromised and more compared to a dispute in a kindergarten class that claims another has stolen a toy.  A playstyle can not be blamed for changes in the games you enjoy or how this genre progresses.

    The MMO genre has to expand, they can not keep using the same game model and expect to survive.  I hope that you find a good gaming experience in the future that satisfies your tastes but until then you're stuck like us waiting around for something to come by and give that feeling we had when we first stepped into the world of mmos.

  • ShoregreyShoregrey Member Posts: 2

    My comments from the thread complaining about anti-social people in MMOs:

    I am a solo player. As a solo player, I understand that there are certain quests and content in MMORPGs that I will NEVER be able to complete or participate in.



    I DO NOT expect others to adhere to my playstyle. I am happy letting the groupers group and the solos solo.



    Why does everyone want to force everyone else into their style of play?



    Why the attitude "If you want to play solo go play Console games"?



    Truly, If I were a social entity, I wouldn't be locked in my parents basement(jk) playing computer games, now would I?



    I mean seriously, you expect the most antisocial people(lets face it, most gamers are geeks, dorks, shut-ins and other generally antisocial, friendless types...most not all mind you) who are sequestered in their houses and bedrooms to want to be social?



    It's like going to a monster-truck rally and complaining that no one play's chess.



    Keith WP



    Bitter Since 1994

  • JohnnyBravolJohnnyBravol Member Posts: 83

    I prefer to solo as I cannot trust any other member of the human race to be competent. Grouping is simply not worth the risk, and the inevitable headache.

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect Member UncommonPosts: 1,243

    Originally posted by JohnnyBravol

    I prefer to solo as I cannot trust any other member of the human race to be competent. Grouping is simply not worth the risk, and the inevitable headache.

    Because nobody could be as good as you. You are the pinnacle of human evolution. Congratulations, you have won at the game of life. Insert coin for another go.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675

    Originally posted by UsualSuspect

    Originally posted by JohnnyBravol

    I prefer to solo as I cannot trust any other member of the human race to be competent. Grouping is simply not worth the risk, and the inevitable headache.

    Because nobody could be as good as you. You are the pinnacle of human evolution. Congratulations, you have won at the game of life. Insert coin for another go.

    Actually, I agree with him.  There are lots of parties that wipe because of some stupid mistake made by some random person who is padding out the party.  I trust people that I've gotten to know and I know that I trust their judgement.  Some random idiot who jumps into a party that I have no experience with, why should I trust?  Why should anyone?

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  • SweedeSweede Member UncommonPosts: 199

    And a silly misstake is worsened by the damn rush people are in all the time, what happened to having fun it is a game after all, this is very noticable in WoW where people don't interact, dungeons is a necesseray evil that must be completed in no more then 22.35 seconds using group chat for some fun talking forget it, pretty much makes soloing prefered for me.

    I am not the best player and i never pretend to be but doing a rather trivial content should not require 110% performance for a bleeding edge raid fine i can see the need there.

    image

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect Member UncommonPosts: 1,243

    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Originally posted by UsualSuspect


    Originally posted by JohnnyBravol

    I prefer to solo as I cannot trust any other member of the human race to be competent. Grouping is simply not worth the risk, and the inevitable headache.

    Because nobody could be as good as you. You are the pinnacle of human evolution. Congratulations, you have won at the game of life. Insert coin for another go.

    Actually, I agree with him.  There are lots of parties that wipe because of some stupid mistake made by some random person who is padding out the party.  I trust people that I've gotten to know and I know that I trust their judgement.  Some random idiot who jumps into a party that I have no experience with, why should I trust?  Why should anyone?

    Why should you trust that bank teller? That woman in the Post Office? The guy serving you a meal at the local take-away? Oh no, the world is potentially full of idiots that can't be trusted! Must lock myself away in a bubble away from all humankind, as they are all potential threats to my success.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675

    Originally posted by UsualSuspect

    Originally posted by Cephus404


    Originally posted by UsualSuspect


    Originally posted by JohnnyBravol

    I prefer to solo as I cannot trust any other member of the human race to be competent. Grouping is simply not worth the risk, and the inevitable headache.

    Because nobody could be as good as you. You are the pinnacle of human evolution. Congratulations, you have won at the game of life. Insert coin for another go.

    Actually, I agree with him.  There are lots of parties that wipe because of some stupid mistake made by some random person who is padding out the party.  I trust people that I've gotten to know and I know that I trust their judgement.  Some random idiot who jumps into a party that I have no experience with, why should I trust?  Why should anyone?

    Why should you trust that bank teller? That woman in the Post Office? The guy serving you a meal at the local take-away? Oh no, the world is potentially full of idiots that can't be trusted! Must lock myself away in a bubble away from all humankind, as they are all potential threats to my success.

    Because they can actually be held accountable for their actions.  Some asshat in an MMO can't.

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  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect Member UncommonPosts: 1,243

    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Originally posted by UsualSuspect


    Originally posted by Cephus404


    Originally posted by UsualSuspect


    Originally posted by JohnnyBravol

    I prefer to solo as I cannot trust any other member of the human race to be competent. Grouping is simply not worth the risk, and the inevitable headache.

    Because nobody could be as good as you. You are the pinnacle of human evolution. Congratulations, you have won at the game of life. Insert coin for another go.

    Actually, I agree with him.  There are lots of parties that wipe because of some stupid mistake made by some random person who is padding out the party.  I trust people that I've gotten to know and I know that I trust their judgement.  Some random idiot who jumps into a party that I have no experience with, why should I trust?  Why should anyone?

    Why should you trust that bank teller? That woman in the Post Office? The guy serving you a meal at the local take-away? Oh no, the world is potentially full of idiots that can't be trusted! Must lock myself away in a bubble away from all humankind, as they are all potential threats to my success.

    Because they can actually be held accountable for their actions.  Some asshat in an MMO can't.

    You can blame the lack of community for that. Back in EverQuest if people were idiots or whatever they'd be blacklisted and word would travel fast. The same happened in Lord of the Rings Online before it went all solo-friendly and free to play. The problem is the lack of community is caused by people soloing all the time. So your main problem with grouping is actually caused by you.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,264

    Originally posted by UsualSuspect

     

    You can blame the lack of community for that. Back in EverQuest if people were idiots or whatever they'd be blacklisted and word would travel fast. The same happened in Lord of the Rings Online before it went all solo-friendly and free to play. The problem is the lack of community is caused by people soloing all the time. So your main problem with grouping is actually caused by you.

    Why does this have to be repeated constantly.

    One doesn't ever have to group in order to be social, to sell, to help out with information. Soloing all the time has nothing to do with it.

    I solo all the time and I've given more game world tours than probably a professionial travel agent.

    People can be part of a community and not once group with everyone.

    Or, one can be part of the AWESOME idiots who I've grouped with who were selfish, only wanted to get their stuff done and then bale, profane, childish, felt that the group should run the way they wanted, abusive,...

     

    oh the list goes on of "special" groupers who I've grouped with. Community can be created without grouping. Community is about communication.




  • JohnnyBravolJohnnyBravol Member Posts: 83

    Haha, you simply cannot say that group play is killed by solo play. If people solo, then it is a fault in the game rather than the player, unless the game is designed for soloing. It has to do with how the game is designed, not the players. Obviously you will still have people who prefer to group or solo based on their nature, but if the game is fun enough to play in groups, people who normally solo will group, and vice versa.

  • NightfyreNightfyre Member UncommonPosts: 197

    Games are becoming more for the solo crowd then group oriented.  Days of Everquest groups made things so much easier and fun.

     

    Groups - you meet people, interesting, funny, or just plain annoying /quit people.  These are where you make new friends.

    Solo play - shouldn't be the main point of an MMO, we already have Solo play games - Oblivion, Super Mario, Mass Effect, Mega Man and so on; let's leave solo play to those kind of games not in a MMO.

    Sure solo play is nice when you don't have the time or are anti-social but again solo should be to learn the game the rest of the game a group or least another person is more desirable. 

    Shame Star Wars MMO didn't learn this and instead made it even more soloable with companions.

  • Dixi01Dixi01 Member UncommonPosts: 54

     


    As I know from my previous MMO experience, I like to play in groups. Because when I'm trying to play some old MMOs, witch I've missed, or returning after several years, like EQ2, Vanguard, etc., I'm quitting again in a week, because I feel lonely and bored to do everything solo and meet almost no one.


     


    I really like random groups, not guild raids.


     


    When I'm considering to pay for any MMO (to buy or just subscribe for a month), I always evaluate my chances to play solo. Reasons are: sometimes I don't have a time or mood to play in a group. Often I have RL things that could force me stop me playing, or I might have to go afk for a while and so on.


     


    I suppose majority of players like an ability to play solo, so they are not obligated to seek a group as soon as they get into the game. But many of them will be happy to meet some in game, and group with them to do some tasks together.


     


    Some MMOs provide easy ways to do it. In Rift, groups were "public" by default. So anyone who like to group with you can just click and pick "join". In Warhammer Online were "public groups".


     


    So I think future MMOs should support all kinds of play.


     


    - solo, - random grouping, - classic type groups, - raids.


     


    For random or occasional grouping, should exist easy means to make a group, and bonuses of doing anything in group should be clearly explained to all players. Also those groups should auto-disband-drop if people went too far away from each other.

  • phantomghostphantomghost Member UncommonPosts: 737

    Originally posted by DiSpLiFF

     i'll say what i've said before, I personally think WoW did it best. Theres group play and solo play, but you won't get nearly as good quality gear just by soloing. I would never play a game that forced me to group 24/7, on the other hand i'd never play an mmo that was just solo play. Of course i'm a casual player (i guess? 2 hours a day) sometimes I don't have an hour to wait to join  a group i'll probably leave 40 mins into it. 

    I think WoW did ruin MMO's best. 

     

    They ruined the need to play the game by grouping by allowing players to be able to not really try hard to lvl up and gear up... questing for xp ruined MMORPG.  I think WoW was probably the worst thing for MMORPGS.

     

    As far as a game that requires you to group 24/7... that does not happen.  In good games such as EQ there was plenty to do in groups, out of groups, and with raids.  You had to work on your character in all aspects... in order to know your role you had to play it with groups and without... not oh well I am max level now... I guess I should attempt this grp thing

     


  • BeartosserBeartosser Member UncommonPosts: 94

    Once GW2 releases solo players will for the first time have access to a viable endgame progression path in a top tier MMO. That it took so long is a sad testament to the cluelessness of many devs over the years when it comes to recognizing the needs of their playerbase.

    Many of their own studies have surely demonstrated to them that the solo playstyle was the most populous, yet they steadfastly ignored the data when they continued to design new games. Did they think the rising number of solo players were going to continue to be satisfied with game design that sentenced them to second class citizenship forever...if so, they were obviously wrong.

    I would like to see a companion system that's fully functional, where solo players can add, equip, upgrade, and level  one, or multiple companion characters to fill groups as they see fit. If you could create and level your own companions from scratch like you do your main and alts, all the better.

    In the end it's about options, and the devs need to give players the ability to completely progress their characters in as many ways as possible. If more choose to do so solo, then so be it.

     

  • VidirVidir Member UncommonPosts: 963

    Originally posted by Beartosser

    Once GW2 releases solo players will for the first time have access to a viable endgame progression path in a top tier MMO. That it took so long is a sad testament to the cluelessness of many devs over the years when it comes to recognizing the needs of their playerbase.

    Many of their own studies have surely demonstrated to them that the solo playstyle was the most populous, yet they steadfastly ignored the data when they continued to design new games. Did they think the rising number of solo players were going to continue to be satisfied with game design that sentenced them to second class citizenship forever...if so, they were obviously wrong.

    I would like to see a companion system that's fully functional, where solo players can add, equip, upgrade, and level  one, or multiple companion characters to fill groups as they see fit. If you could create and level your own companions from scratch like you do your main and alts, all the better.

    In the end it's about options, and the devs need to give players the ability to completely progress their characters in as many ways as possible. If more choose to do so solo, then so be it.

     

    Agree.

  • DavinTFelthDavinTFelth Member Posts: 1

    I am a huge fan of Entropia Universe.

    You can TOTALLY be solo the whole time.  You can join a Society and have a private chat channel going the whole time with just your society members.  You can then still do everything solo, but have group to talk to.  Then you can do team hunts which give you the chance to hunt bigger stuff.  A lot of times these hunts tend to be the most successful also.  They have been more recently putting bigger boss mobs out where 100 people are all fighting it at the same time.  It's awesome chaos! 

    SO I like the option of doing both.  I didn't have a lot of that experience in WoW and havne't played many other games to know others experience.  I look forward to reading more.

  • panachepanache Member UncommonPosts: 397
    I think most mmo's cater quite well for soloists and group players the problem starts when the solo quest line inevitabley leads to elite mob group quest and you can't find anyone to do it with. I've encountered this with aion swg and now Conan. This problem gets worse as populations reduce.... How many capped level players want to help lowboys complete campaign/ epic quests

    Pan

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