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Another game trying the level-less design

And I couldn't be happier. I loved the design of Ultima Online and believe the level-less design is the best way a person can get lost in their character. In UO over 5 years I had the same character redesigned at least 50x, and it was possible because the mechanics of the game would let you change your class as much often as you desired. No level up needed, just grab some new skills and make the character what you wanted it to be without many constraints.

For this reason I am excited to see what The Secret World has to offer. I am so hopeful the game is character driven and not gear driven like so many of the offerings since the original inception of UO. I have never seen classless design done as well as the MMO that defined what massively multiplayer was all about; hopefully TSW can capture what Origin figured out from the beginning.

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Comments

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Member UncommonPosts: 1,920

    I completely agree.  But then, I like games where I can hyperventilate over where to put every individual point. 

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

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  • fallenlordsfallenlords Member UncommonPosts: 683

    So how does level-less design work?  Are we talking no levels, or are we talking there is no outward appearance of levels.

  • AdamTMAdamTM Member Posts: 1,376

     





    Originally posted by fallenlords
    So how does level-less design work?  Are we talking no levels, or are we talking there is no outward appearance of levels.


     
    TSW has a rather unique leveling approach.
     
    There are two progression paths, vertical and horizontal.

    Vertical progression of your character will represent how powerful your character is (i.e. how much damage he can deal out, etc.). Afaik this will be facilitated by -gear- exclusively.

    Horizontal progression will determine how far you can branch out in your skills. I.e. how many of the 400 skills you have access to. Afaik this will be facilitated by skill-points and skill-shrines at which you can customize your character (even in dungeons) for the specific task at hand.

    The devs said their design focuses more on

    "What skill-set will i bring to my task (quest/dungeon/event)"

    than

    "What level do i need to be to dish out XXXX dps to beat the boss before he enrages"

    They also said they are balancing encounters by -total- healing/damage/mitigation not by skills/itemlevel/role.
    In essence where in WoW you might need dedicated healers in a dungeon, in TSW this is not the case.

    I think the easiest (but simplified) way to imagine the gameplay of TSW, if you played WoW or other level/class-based MMORPG, is like this:
    You are a Paladin with unlimited, free, talent-tree re-specs.
    Just like a WoW paladin is able to fit any role in a group, so is -every- character in TSW, except imagine if you had access to all talents in WoW and your spells would not scale to your level.

    image
  • fallenlordsfallenlords Member UncommonPosts: 683

    So it has levels then as far as I can see.  If there is character progression there are levels of some sort, not all skills or gear is going to be available to you from day one I assume.  So if you have to earn anything there are levels of some description involved. Personally from what I have heard to date, they should state 'no traditional levels' not the game is level-less.

     

    I find it odd that most popular gaming seems to be embracing levels and adding progression to things such as weapons etc.    With the TSW two of the major innovations no level, or class. seem actually to be the same thing done just done in a slightly different way.    With an attempt via wording to just pull the wool over peoples eyes as to the actual mechanics and lack of innovation.

  • KabaalKabaal Member UncommonPosts: 3,042

    Originally posted by fallenlords

    So it has levels then as far as I can see.  If there is character progression there are levels of some sort, not all skills or gear is going to be available to you from day one I assume.  So if you have to earn anything there are levels of some description involved. Personally from what I have heard to date, they should state 'no traditional levels' not the game is level-less.

     

    I find it odd that most popular gaming seems to be embracing levels and adding progression to things such as weapons etc.    With the TSW two of the major innovations no level, or class. seem actually to be the same thing done just done in a slightly different way.    With an attempt via wording to just pull the wool over peoples eyes as to the actual mechanics and lack of innovation.

    Considering the only other option is to give you access to everything the second you log in for the first time it's hardly a bad thing.

  • fallenlordsfallenlords Member UncommonPosts: 683

    Originally posted by Kabaal

    Considering the only other option is to give you access to everything the second you log in for the first time it's hardly a bad thing.

    If I describe something as being 'sugarless' people would expect it to contain 'no sugar'.  So if I was selling to you sugarless jam then the question on your mind might be what is being used instead of sugar? Answer probably something else to thicken the jam.  Here we are saying level-less and I am asking what is being used instead of levels and it turns out to be levels.

     

    The only option isn't to give you everything when you first log in - this is where I thought Funcom where innovating with their level-less, class-less system.  I thought this has been what has taken them ten years to come up with, but in the case of level and class it just seems the same things repackaged.  I struggle to see any innovation going on at all with this game which makes me question why it has taken them so long to produce. 

  • JohnnyMotrinJohnnyMotrin Member UncommonPosts: 439

    Originally posted by fallenlords

    Originally posted by Kabaal



    Considering the only other option is to give you access to everything the second you log in for the first time it's hardly a bad thing.

    If I describe something as being 'sugarless' people would expect it to contain 'no sugar'.  So if I was selling to you sugarless jam then the question on your mind might be what is being used instead of sugar? Answer probably something else to thicken the jam.  Here we are saying level-less and I am asking what is being used instead of levels and it turns out to be levels.

     

    The only option isn't to give you everything when you first log in - this is where I thought Funcom where innovating with their level-less, class-less system.  I thought this has been what has taken them ten years to come up with, but in the case of level and class it just seems the same things repackaged.  I struggle to see any innovation going on at all with this game which makes me question why it has taken them so long to produce. 

    TSW is "level-less".  You ask what is being used instead of levels, and my answer is experience.  The two are totally different.  Levels dictate when you can enter x dungeon and when you can wear y armour and when you can equip z traits.  In this game, the more experience or the more you progress within the game, the more skills you can unlock.  The more you explore, the more weapons you may come across to equip.  I can easily see weapons being rewards for completing different puzzles.  Puzzles you can complete your 3rd day in the game or your 50th.  I know it's a thin line that separates the two, but I do see the difference and I may be totally wrong, but this is how i see things being from my interpretation of what i've read.

    image

  • Tabloid42Tabloid42 Member UncommonPosts: 200

    I am having the same feeling trying to understand 'level-less'.

    You call it experience,..but it's still functions the same/similar.    It gates you from using certain abilities or weapon use.

    if it takes 100 exp to reach level 1, 200 for level 2 and so on,...well ,....then you can call it level 50  in a level based game,..or say you need 5000 experience to unlock that Psycic skill!

     

    I dont have anything against it,..I am glad any 'new'  way of approach is being tried.

    I guess the stigma of 'level'  based = grind  is one reason TSW may be trying to distance themselves from that term,

     

     

  • czekoskwigelczekoskwigel Member Posts: 458

    Originally posted by fallenlords

    Originally posted by Kabaal



    Considering the only other option is to give you access to everything the second you log in for the first time it's hardly a bad thing.

    If I describe something as being 'sugarless' people would expect it to contain 'no sugar'.  So if I was selling to you sugarless jam then the question on your mind might be what is being used instead of sugar? Answer probably something else to thicken the jam.  Here we are saying level-less and I am asking what is being used instead of levels and it turns out to be levels.

     

    The only option isn't to give you everything when you first log in - this is where I thought Funcom where innovating with their level-less, class-less system.  I thought this has been what has taken them ten years to come up with, but in the case of level and class it just seems the same things repackaged.  I struggle to see any innovation going on at all with this game which makes me question why it has taken them so long to produce. 

    So, all games just give you a giant batch of skills and let you pick and choose whichever you want?  I must have missed that in WoW, Aion, Rift, AoC, Warhammer, etc.

  • JohnnyMotrinJohnnyMotrin Member UncommonPosts: 439

    Originally posted by czekoskwigel

    Originally posted by fallenlords

    If I describe something as being 'sugarless' people would expect it to contain 'no sugar'.  So if I was selling to you sugarless jam then the question on your mind might be what is being used instead of sugar? Answer probably something else to thicken the jam.  Here we are saying level-less and I am asking what is being used instead of levels and it turns out to be levels.

     

    The only option isn't to give you everything when you first log in - this is where I thought Funcom where innovating with their level-less, class-less system.  I thought this has been what has taken them ten years to come up with, but in the case of level and class it just seems the same things repackaged.  I struggle to see any innovation going on at all with this game which makes me question why it has taken them so long to produce. 

    So, all games just give you a giant batch of skills and let you pick and choose whichever you want?  I must have missed that in WoW, Aion, Rift, AoC, Warhammer, etc.

    Exactly.  I don't think a game would be very fun if everything was given to you before you even finished the tutorial.  The game has to have an element of something for the player to achieve.  Instead of forcing you to kill 500 boars to *ding*, this game is saying finish this puzzle, or finish this story arc and you'll be able to chose another weapon or skill.  If you only need to kill 1 boar to finish the puzzle or story arc then so be it.   How you finish the objective or achieve the achievable is up to you and I think that's where the leveling is taken out so to speak.  

     

    Leveling to me means a system where my potential is increased "permanently" and another toon of a couple lower levels could never hope to defeat me unless i was in a pvp area and afk.  With a leveling system in certain games, a toon 5+ levels lower than another would miss more times than hit.  In TSW, anyone can hit anyone and can beat anyone with the difference being skills and weapons.  Now the skills and weapons may have levels, but that doesn't mean the toon is of a certain level.  If one guy has a sword that is better than another guy's hammer, that doesn't mean the guy with the sword is of a higher level because the guy with the hammer may have blood magic higher than the sword guy's elemental magic.

    image

  • fallenlordsfallenlords Member UncommonPosts: 683

    In a word 'lame'.  If you unlock things via character progression then levels are involved. Doesn't matter if you level by level, or level by skill or even level by equipment.  If you have to gain a certain amount of 'something' to unlock things then the game isn't level-less at all.  Again you might say traditional  levels are not involved - in much the same way as class, but I don't see how you can advertise this game as level-less.





    Don't get me wrong I don't mind levels, most games are quite linear in nature so it makes sense for progression to be a step by step process.  I just thought TSW was suppose to be innovating in this area, but it seems to be the 'same old same old' when you dig a little deeper under the surface.    Fair enough, but so far all I am hearing is it's taken them nearly 10 yearrs to create just another MMO with a different setting.

  • GargolaGargola Member Posts: 356

    Originally posted by fallenlords

    In a word 'lame'.  If you unlock things via character progression then levels are involved. Doesn't matter if you level by level, or level by skill or even level by equipment.  If you have to gain a certain amount of 'something' to unlock things then the game isn't level-less at all.  Again you might say traditional  levels are not involved - in much the same way as class, but I don't see how you can advertise this game as level-less.





    Don't get me wrong I don't mind levels, most games are quite linear in nature so it makes sense for progression to be a step by step process.  I just thought TSW was suppose to be innovating in this area, but it seems to be the 'same old same old' when you dig a little deeper under the surface.    Fair enough, but so far all I am hearing is it's taken them nearly 10 yearrs to create just another MMO with a different setting.

    Gaining new skills is not the same as gaining new levels,  you don't become more powerful by that, you just add more versatility to your repertorie.  You will always have only 14 powers/skills available in your character at any given time, so having the whole list of skills just mean you can chose between more options on which ones you want to include in your build.

     

    having just 14 skills could put you on even ground with someone that hass 100, for instance, as the skill wheel is horizontal progression, not vertical.  For vertical progression we would have to look at gear and see how much does it makes your character to increase in power.

     

    So.. no attaining new skills it's not the same as attaining new levels, in the proposed system of this game.

  • fallenlordsfallenlords Member UncommonPosts: 683

    Originally posted by Gargola

    Gaining new skills is not the same as gaining new levels,  you don't become more powerful by that, you just add more versatility to your repertorie.  You will always have only 14 powers/skills available in your character at any given time, so having the whole list of skills just mean you can chose between more options on which ones you want to include in your build.

     

    having just 14 skills could put you on even ground with someone that hass 100, for instance, as the skill wheel is horizontal progression, not vertical.  For vertical progression we would have to look at gear and see how much does it makes your character to increase in power.

     

    So.. no attaining new skills it's not the same as attaining new levels, in the proposed system of this game.

    So progression is skill based and capped  plus you can respec on the fly.  But  if you have to earn the skills in any way then I pretty much think that is fundamentally level based. All skills are not available to you from day one. So  I am not seeing any innovation here.  It took them ten years to produce a game that was suppose to have no class  or level, according to them. All I see is they are doing the same old thing in a slightly differennt way.  If gear also plays a part in characterr stats/power then it's even more traditional.  All that you are saying is we are not going to call a level a level and a class a class. Because they are not specified as such, so the game is class-less and level-less.   Yeah right ...

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by fallenlords

    Originally posted by Gargola

    Gaining new skills is not the same as gaining new levels,  you don't become more powerful by that, you just add more versatility to your repertorie.  You will always have only 14 powers/skills available in your character at any given time, so having the whole list of skills just mean you can chose between more options on which ones you want to include in your build.
     
    having just 14 skills could put you on even ground with someone that hass 100, for instance, as the skill wheel is horizontal progression, not vertical.  For vertical progression we would have to look at gear and see how much does it makes your character to increase in power.
     
    So.. no attaining new skills it's not the same as attaining new levels, in the proposed system of this game.
    So progression is skill based and capped  plus you can respec on the fly.  But  if you have to earn the skills in any way then I pretty much think that is fundamentally level based. All skills are not available to you from day one. So  I am not seeing any innovation here.  It took them ten years to produce a game that was suppose to have no class  or level, according to them. All I see is they are doing the same old thing in a slightly differennt way.  If gear also plays a part in characterr stats/power then it's even more traditional.  All that you are saying is we are not going to call a level a level and a class a class. Because they are not specified as such, so the game is class-less and level-less.   Yeah right ...



    Using your description, in order to not have levels or classes you could not have progression.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Originally posted by JohnnyMotrin

    With a leveling system in certain games, a toon 5+ levels lower than another would miss more times than hit.  In TSW, anyone can hit anyone and can beat anyone with the difference being skills and weapons.

     

    The difference you are describing is called level-spread coding as applied to combat.  I've done some experimenting with it.

     

    In a level-spread based combat system, level is treated like a player stat such as STR or +spell damage.  Each combat event (spell cast, weapon swing etc) is rated based on the level of the attacker vs. defender.  Depending on the formula, an attacker being lower than the defender can reduce chance to hit or even directly affect damage calculations.  In some, an attacker being higher level will increase hit chance, crit, or damage calcs.

     

    I tried a test once where level-spread wasn't used at all.  The results were crazy compared to normal themepark designs.  With decent gear, skills and stats, killing something even 30 levels higher was achievable.

     

    If this is what they're doing in TSW expect some wickedly diverse combat.  A bad build, crappy gear or poorly chosen skills could seriously nerf a character's performance.  On the other hand, a great build, gear and skills could yield some seriously strong performance, even against higher levels since levels themselves don't affect combat directly.

     

    Is PVP going to be a major part of the game?  I'm glad it's not me who gets to balance it all :-)  Try telling a player that their performance sucks because they made bad choices in their build.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

    Originally posted by JohnnyMotrin With a leveling system in certain games, a toon 5+ levels lower than another would miss more times than hit.  In TSW, anyone can hit anyone and can beat anyone with the difference being skills and weapons.
     
    The difference you are describing is called level-spread coding as applied to combat.  I've done some experimenting with it.
     
    In a level-spread based combat system, level is treated like a player stat such as STR or +spell damage.  Each combat event (spell cast, weapon swing etc) is rated based on the level of the attacker vs. defender.  Depending on the formula, an attacker being lower than the defender can reduce chance to hit or even directly affect damage calculations.  In some, an attacker being higher level will increase hit chance, crit, or damage calcs.
     
    I tried a test once where level-spread wasn't used at all.  The results were crazy compared to normal themepark designs.  With decent gear, skills and stats, killing something even 30 levels higher was achievable.
     
    If this is what they're doing in TSW expect some wickedly diverse combat.  A bad build, crappy gear or poorly chosen skills could seriously nerf a character's performance.  On the other hand, a great build, gear and skills could yield some seriously strong performance, even against higher levels since levels themselves don't affect combat directly.
     
    Is PVP going to be a major part of the game?  I'm glad it's not me who gets to balance it all :-)  Try telling a player that their performance sucks because they made bad choices in their build.



    I like the idea of levels having less to do with the outcome than the player's choices and skill. But that's not the point of this thread, is it?

    Anyway, the pvp will be important to the game and the game's direction. The game isn't based around the pvp though, so players who aren't interested will never have to do it.

    In the world pvp zones, there are objectives and I believe a faction can have control of these objectives, helping the faction's overall strength. There could also be manufacturing and gathering benefits as well.

    In the instanced pvp zones, I think all you get is rewards.

    Gear will have an impact on character power, but it won't be much. The number 10% comes to mind, but I don't know if that's real or I'm making it up. The description was that gear could give players a slight edge, but it won't win fights. The skills trained and the build outs chosen will have a much bigger impact.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • fallenlordsfallenlords Member UncommonPosts: 683

    Originally posted by lizardbones





    Using your description, in order to not have levels or classes you could not have progression.

     

    Well that is what I thought had taken them nearly ten years to innovate.   A game that had no levels or class.  I am not seeing that I am seeing level/class being used in a slightly different way to the standard way of doing it.

  • fallenlordsfallenlords Member UncommonPosts: 683

    Originally posted by lizardbones





    Gear will have an impact on character power, but it won't be much. The number 10% comes to mind, but I don't know if that's real or I'm making it up. The description was that gear could give players a slight edge, but it won't win fights. The skills trained and the build outs chosen will have a much bigger impact.

     

    Which will lead to optimal builds and the creation of class based gaming, even though class as a definition does not exist.  The pure fact that the game is skill based, means the game is also class based. As skills don't unlock from the start  and character progression is involved, it also means it's level based. Character progression has to be unique for no class or level to be involved.

  • RavingRabbidRavingRabbid Member UncommonPosts: 1,168

    If the game has "alot" of skills player can choose form it would be difficult for this game to be "gear driven" or they create alot of gear! Im sure gear willhave some impact but in the end I hope it based on a player's skill.

    ***raises plunger in slaute to Templars everywhere!***

    All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by fallenlords

    Originally posted by lizardbones


    Gear will have an impact on character power, but it won't be much. The number 10% comes to mind, but I don't know if that's real or I'm making it up. The description was that gear could give players a slight edge, but it won't win fights. The skills trained and the build outs chosen will have a much bigger impact.

     
    Which will lead to optimal builds and the creation of class based gaming, even though class as a definition does not exist.  The pure fact that the game is skill based, means the game is also class based. As skills don't unlock from the start  and character progression is involved, it also means it's level based. Character progression has to be unique for no class or level to be involved.



    The game isn't class based. If the developers don't predefine how the skills are put together into classes (and then call them classes), it's not a class based game.

    Feel free to continue taking the idea that all progression is class based though. If you are looking at games that do not have what you're defining as class based game play, you will find 0 mmorpg to play.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • czekoskwigelczekoskwigel Member Posts: 458

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by fallenlords





    Originally posted by lizardbones





    Gear will have an impact on character power, but it won't be much. The number 10% comes to mind, but I don't know if that's real or I'm making it up. The description was that gear could give players a slight edge, but it won't win fights. The skills trained and the build outs chosen will have a much bigger impact.



     






    Which will lead to optimal builds and the creation of class based gaming, even though class as a definition does not exist.  The pure fact that the game is skill based, means the game is also class based. As skills don't unlock from the start  and character progression is involved, it also means it's level based. Character progression has to be unique for no class or level to be involved.







    The game isn't class based. If the developers don't predefine how the skills are put together into classes (and then call them classes), it's not a class based game.



    Feel free to continue taking the idea that all progression is class based though. If you are looking at games that do not have what you're defining as class based game play, you will find 0 mmorpg to play.

     

    Try to be a little more open minded here.  I believe that what he is saying is that people will still start creating classes.  People are going to make Melee builds for "tanking" and Melee builds for "DPS".   We'll also see a lot of Hybrids too, and I think that a large number of those who would be attracted to a game like this will do that, but you'll still see  a lot of people building characters in an attempt to fill traditional class rolls.

    As for levels?  Well, you can say there are no character levels, but as you still progress by learning new skills, the levels are really there right under the surface.  Ok, so I won't have a level 15 character... but, I've unlocked 15 skills.  And the guy kicking my ass isn't a level 20.... but he's unlocked 20 skills.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by fallenlords

    Because they are not specified as such, so the game is class-less and level-less.   Yeah right ...

    You have held this exact same discussion several times in the past months, also you have gotten an abundance of answers on your questions. To me, this sounds like soapbox ranting.

     

    What everyone can understand is that when they say level-less and classless, then it doesn't use the level system and class system as used in MMO's like EQ, WoW, LotrO etc: you're not rigidly locked from skills bc they aren't in your class, and there isn't a numerical level system that determines things like what skills you get.

    Of course that doesn't mean that there isn't some form of progression, also not that hard to understand, only not in the traditional class/level system as seen in the majority of MMO's.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by czekoskwigel

    Originally posted by lizardbones
     


    Originally posted by fallenlords



    Originally posted by lizardbones


    Gear will have an impact on character power, but it won't be much. The number 10% comes to mind, but I don't know if that's real or I'm making it up. The description was that gear could give players a slight edge, but it won't win fights. The skills trained and the build outs chosen will have a much bigger impact.

     


    Which will lead to optimal builds and the creation of class based gaming, even though class as a definition does not exist.  The pure fact that the game is skill based, means the game is also class based. As skills don't unlock from the start  and character progression is involved, it also means it's level based. Character progression has to be unique for no class or level to be involved.





    The game isn't class based. If the developers don't predefine how the skills are put together into classes (and then call them classes), it's not a class based game.

    Feel free to continue taking the idea that all progression is class based though. If you are looking at games that do not have what you're defining as class based game play, you will find 0 mmorpg to play.

     


    Try to be a little more open minded here.  I believe that what he is saying is that people will still start creating classes.  People are going to make Melee builds for "tanking" and Melee builds for "DPS".   We'll also see a lot of Hybrids too, and I think that a large number of those who would be attracted to a game like this will do that, but you'll still see  a lot of people building characters in an attempt to fill traditional class rolls.
    As for levels?  Well, you can say there are no character levels, but as you still progress by learning new skills, the levels are really there right under the surface.  Ok, so I won't have a level 15 character... but, I've unlocked 15 skills.  And the guy kicking my ass isn't a level 20.... but he's unlocked 20 skills.



    Believe it or not, I do get it. All progression is similar.

    The main difference is where the player makes the choice. They can make the choices as they play (skill based progression) or before they start playing (class based).

    There are similarities between the systems, but they are not the same. TSW uses skill based progression. WoW uses class based progression. You can say they are the same, but they are not.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • fallenlordsfallenlords Member UncommonPosts: 683

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    You have held this exact same discussion several times in the past months, also you have gotten an abundance of answers on your questions. To me, this sounds like soapbox ranting.

    What everyone can understand is that when they say level-less and classless, then it doesn't use the level system and class system as used in MMO's like EQ, WoW, LotrO etc: you're not rigidly locked from skills bc they aren't in your class, and there isn't a numerical level system that determines things like what skills you get.

    Of course that doesn't mean that there isn't some form of progression, also not that hard to understand, only not in the traditional class/level system as seen in the majority of MMO's.

    I have had one discussion about class and as mentioned found class still exists if you dig under the surface.  What I am trying to understand is what took them nearly ten years to do, make a game with secret societies that has a bit of ARG.  Sorry I thought TSW was suppose to be an evolutionary step in the MMO genre.  Part of that evolution I perceived to be no class or level, not class or level hidden underneath a different name.

     

    All I am seeing at the moment is people seem to be getting excited about playing a part in a 'secret' society.  Though I have to say it isn't so secret with the way you pick your allegiance.  All I see here is faction gaming.  Then they are getting excited about the ARG aspect, which is something you either love or hate.  I personally hate it.  So far from what I have seen graphics are not next-gen, gameplay certainly looks sub standard I am wondering what has taken them nearly 10 years to create.  

     

    The OP posted about another game trying level-less design, I don't see it at all.  All I see is a game not using the word level, not having numbers and basically masking the fact that level exists under the surface.  In much the same was as class still exists, even though it suppose to be class-less.

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Originally posted by lizardbones





    Gear will have an impact on character power, but it won't be much. The number 10% comes to mind, but I don't know if that's real or I'm making it up. The description was that gear could give players a slight edge, but it won't win fights. The skills trained and the build outs chosen will have a much bigger impact.

     

    Sounds like a cool system.  Without levels, and with gear being only a minor contribution to combat, I assume that either advanced abilities (spells, attacks, etc) are more powerful than lower ones (ability progression) or that skill value gains (think Oblivion where doing the same activity raises skill value and performance) are either stats themselves or drive stats which produce a character that is more powerfule (stat progression).

    Pardon, I realize I'm not much of a contribution to conversation.  I'm just hoping to get a glimpse of the math/mechanics used to make this work.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
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