If an MMO company runs their MMO in such a way that you dislike 90% of the people...
There's two easy ways to fix that.
Craft their game in such a way that they're likely to alienate 90% of their players, or craft their game so they alienate you.
... unfortunately, math and the love of money suggests you're on the losing end of that deal.
I don't understand why people say things like 'soloers, theme parkers and (etc etc etc)' should get out of MMORPG genre if they don't want to play MMORPGs (Not neccessarily directed against the OP here, just some of the comments I saw), when it's obvious the MMORPG genre is adjusting to accomodate those people.
So really, it's the people who DON'T want those people who should probably get out of the MMORPG genre, just like people with old taste in music probably shouldn't complain about how top 40 radio doesn't cater to them.
So you are saying those that funded these companies through initial game purchases and monthly fees and made it possible for those that came Post -WoW to continue to enjoy MMORPG's should leave the genre now? Just because the new majority, which consists of manily greedy, selfish, self entitlement and instant gratification players that whine to make them more like console games that make them feel "special"? Like the hero?
MMO's were about COMMUNITY at one time, that is what sperated them from console games. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with soloing. You SHOULD have multiple options...after all, that is yet another feature of MMO's that seperate them. Hell, even in my days back in EQ, I soloed at times. Although it was MUCH harder to do then than it is now. But the vast majority of MMO content, as well as players "wants" are geared towards it now. There is nearly no community in MMO's now...just cliques and small groups of people. That isn't community.
And those saying "Find a good Guild and stick to them"...that isn't an answer. You shouldn't HAVE to find a Guild and only communicate within it while ignoring the rest of the server's population. Just sad days anymore. MMORPG's are nealry extinct as what they once were.
It's amazing how many people out there are looking for a mature, considerate, intelligent group to play their MMO with, and yet they never seem to find each other.
(I have found one)
(Surprisingly, this happened right around the time I calmed down, started playing in a more team orientated way, and took the trouble to get to know the people in the group)
(Talk about an amazing coincidence!)
They are VERY few and far between. Especially in today's instant gratification easy-mode MMO's where any foam helmet wearing drool bib recipient can pick them up and get to cap.
But I found PLENTY of them in one MMO. I am currently re-subbed to and playing...and enjoying a lot. Great, helpful and unselfish community, people group, almost no smartasses or elitist toolbags...and despite it's age, LOTS of people still playing it after nearly 13 years and 17 expansions. It's EQ1, and a perfect example of what MMO's once were and what makes them a seperate genre.
Sure, it has bland combat (Hit melee attack and stand and wait), and sure it doesn't have pretty graphics, but it has the one thing nealry all modern MMO's lack...a REAL community. Also a large open world (Despite zone lines, still a huge world that feels MUCH more open than most of today's linear funneled MMO's.)
So you are saying those that funded these companies through initial game purchases and monthly fees and made it possible for those that came Post -WoW to continue to enjoy MMORPG's should leave the genre now? Just because the new majority, which consists of manily greedy, selfish, self entitlement and instant gratification players that whine to make them more like console games that make them feel "special"? Like the hero?
MMO's were about COMMUNITY at one time, that is what sperated them from console games. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with soloing. You SHOULD have multiple options...after all, that is yet another feature of MMO's that seperate them. Hell, even in my days back in EQ, I soloed at times. Although it was MUCH harder to do then than it is now. But the vast majority of MMO content, as well as players "wants" are geared towards it now. There is nearly no community in MMO's now...just cliques and small groups of people. That isn't community.
And those saying "Find a good Guild and stick to them"...that isn't an answer. You shouldn't HAVE to find a Guild and only communicate within it while ignoring the rest of the server's population. Just sad days anymore. MMORPG's are nealry extinct as what they once were.
I'm saying that if anybody is going to leave, it should probably be the people whose needs aren't being serviced, yes?
If somebody doesn't like the current direction of MMORPGs, then they probably shouldn't be playing them and complaining about all the people there who the MMORPGs are specifically designed for.
That's like me going into McDonalds and ranting at them for serving so much beef, when I don't eat red meat.
I'm not really sure what the point is. Other than to have some confused McDonalds employees, and a bunch of people laughing at you behind your back.
... but that's the thing. The MMORPG makers know what they're doing. THey can make a game targeted towards the biggest audience, slap MMORPG on it, and they'll still somehow manage to sell tons of box copies to people who hate what modern MMORPGs stand for, just because... I'm not sure why!
I haven't bought an MMORPG for ages.
(shrug) Saying that the new people should leave is silly though, because they're the biggest target audience, and that's who the game is made for. NOt the older generation.
people in general have changed in the last 5 or 6 years, we are now even bigger consumer whores than before. greed is common place in society and everyone hates each other..just what the powers that be want.
Immature and nasty people in MMO's are a big reason why I prefer to solo through content and why I tend to be wary about elements like pvp and raiding. I find it funny that despite the outcry from many MMO players about solo content overshadowing group-oriented activites that there is still such a toxic social element in pretty much any mainstream MMO one could think of.
That's exactly why I solo. There certainly are a few good people here and there, but they're completely buried under the people who can't spell, spend all their time making fart jokes and inappropriate comments, cussing up a storm (and spelling it wrong), etc. I have no interest whatsoever in spending any time around any of these immature, uneducated asshats and they seem to make up a large portion of most game communities.
So you are saying those that funded these companies through initial game purchases and monthly fees and made it possible for those that came Post -WoW to continue to enjoy MMORPG's should leave the genre now? Just because the new majority, which consists of manily greedy, selfish, self entitlement and instant gratification players that whine to make them more like console games that make them feel "special"? Like the hero?
MMO's were about COMMUNITY at one time, that is what sperated them from console games. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with soloing. You SHOULD have multiple options...after all, that is yet another feature of MMO's that seperate them. Hell, even in my days back in EQ, I soloed at times. Although it was MUCH harder to do then than it is now. But the vast majority of MMO content, as well as players "wants" are geared towards it now. There is nearly no community in MMO's now...just cliques and small groups of people. That isn't community.
And those saying "Find a good Guild and stick to them"...that isn't an answer. You shouldn't HAVE to find a Guild and only communicate within it while ignoring the rest of the server's population. Just sad days anymore. MMORPG's are nealry extinct as what they once were.
(shrug) Saying that the new people should leave is silly though, because they're the biggest target audience, and that's who the game is made for. NOt the older generation.
I NEVER said they should leave. Just trying to get the majority of them to understand the difference between console games and MMO's and why they are different genre's. But when you try and tell them what they ask for is more geared towards console gaming (Where I am willing to bet most of these new players come from. TY Blizzard =/), and maybe that is where they are better suited to play if that is what they are looking for....not meaning they should leave MMO's, just suggesting maybe that is what is better suited for their taste.....they flame you and tell you how stupid you are because they just don't get it.
And if some MMO's want to go towards console gaming features...that is fine I guess. But what REALLY twists my niblets is not ONE wants to stay traditional all in the name of greed. There are PLENTY of players on these forums, and on traditional, and MUCH older MMO's still playing that would jump at a newer MMO with traditional features. But, no one will do it. Why? Because there is way too much more potential to get a new yatch filtering money off of the clueless new masses and giving them anything and everything they want to fill there swiss bank accounts. SO MANY newer MMO's have so much crap content, except in areas where the masses are whining for it. Mainly "end game" and making things stupid easy.
I don't leave MMO's because I love them...I just sit and wait and hope SOME company will get the beanbags to create a traditional MMO with some creativity and substance. I feel many others feel the same and wait in vain like I do.
P.S. Curently back in EQ1. 20 minutes into getting reacquainted with my characters I had already made 2 friends...1 of which hooked me up with platinum (pp) and gear. People answer questions without smartass remarks, and it has been just all around enjoyable.
Yes, it doesn't have exciting combat (auto attack) or amazing graphics, but it has one thing nealry all modern MMO's lack....COMMUNITY.
Immature and nasty people in MMO's are a big reason why I prefer to solo through content and why I tend to be wary about elements like pvp and raiding. I find it funny that despite the outcry from many MMO players about solo content overshadowing group-oriented activites that there is still such a toxic social element in pretty much any mainstream MMO one could think of.
That's exactly why I solo. There certainly are a few good people here and there, but they're completely buried under the people who can't spell, spend all their time making fart jokes and inappropriate comments, cussing up a storm (and spelling it wrong), etc. I have no interest whatsoever in spending any time around any of these immature, uneducated asshats and they seem to make up a large portion of most game communities.
So count me as a soloer until things change.
You can thank Blizzard for mainstreaming MMO's with their easy-mode mechanics and mass advertisement. I liked it much better when MMO's were a niche genre.
Yes, MMO gamers have changed, and it's because the MMOs have change. These games now cater to mouth-breathing morons who would normally get their rocks off in some FPS game. I love a good FPS, but let's face it, it's a cess pool of DBs. Now they are spilling over into the MMO genre, because these games are combat-focused and simple.
Games companies have almost completely removed community aspects of these games, so there is no social motivation to be a respectful, useful member. In SWG, it was more of a virtual world, so people could make a name for themselves whether it was for being a total jerk, or for being a great crafter, helping new people, being a skilled but respectful PvP dominator, or whatever. The other aspect is, that because the game catered to just about every style you can think of from combat to entertainer, it attracted a whole spectrum of differents kinds of people. The player diversity not only made for much more interesting gameplay, it also helped create a self-sustaining social structure. Think about it. Half the classes in the game were non-combat and people loved them.
In addition, player housing in SWG, and even the player towns, had BAN HAMMERS! Anyime you decided to be a jerk, you ran the risk of being banned from a great shop or a whole town. This could be a heavy blow if you need products from skilled crafters. For a while there was a bounty system too for the bounty hunters to take people out. Not only did these features make the game more fun, but they added a sort of risk/reward system.
Being a villian isn't bad. I loved that SWG had people who just wanted to be bad apples, and because most of the server was respectful, these people grew huge reputations. It was ok though. They chose to play that way, and it was very interesting for everyone. The problem in today's games is you end up with a population where over half the player base are sociopaths.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
It's amazing how many people out there are looking for a mature, considerate, intelligent group to play their MMO with, and yet they never seem to find each other.
(I have found one)
(Surprisingly, this happened right around the time I calmed down, started playing in a more team orientated way, and took the trouble to get to know the people in the group)
(Talk about an amazing coincidence!)
It is, isn't it? Still some people can't be bothered to see the subtlety of your message. Some will need to be hit over the head with it.
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
I been saying this for the last couple years. I agree 100%. MMO gamers have changed ALOT in the last 5-6 years. During Everquest, DAOC, and games before it had computer people. You know the once that could afford a computer and loved them. Treating computer as a hobby and loved a challenge. People that know exactly what a BBS is and maybe even who played BRE. They are just lost memories now and missed the gold ol days.
For me the three BANES of MMOs are soloism, Teamspeak and F2P.
Soloism made people arrogant, because they do not depend on another.
TS makes people elitarian and kills the open world communities.
F2P destroyes the spirit of long term dedication to games.
I profoundly, passionately hate these three. Not in itself, but because of the damage they do to community spirit.
Elikal: what about gamers who become more solo player due to how the community has changed over the years.
As that happend to me, started MMORPG with meridian (still at the time didn't even know the term MMORPG) but my most favorite MMORPG experiance was Star Wars Galaxies, I was all over it and was incredible social, we had a guild and even became pretty close friends which I lost during many chances and moves to other mmorpg's. But overall I was completely into the community aspect of the game. From my eperiance people wanted either to be feared or loved and over time people just started not to care about the ingame world, but started to care towards stats and how fast they could reach cap lvl. Kinda feel that mainstream internet brought in gamers that where used to solo games that relied purely on stats and fast leveling and didn't have the experiance being withness to worlds that where shapes to make your place in.
Over the years switching myself to other MMORPG I became less and less inclined to join groups cause the overall experiance was alway's people worriing about their loot, people in this rush to cap lvl asap, suddenly endgame became the most popular atraction towards the majority.
All this and much more I didn't even mentioned made me more and more a solo player
The idea of community has moved from the server to the guild.
Just like group size for content is getting smaller and smaller, games are becoming more and more clique based.
Just like community has evolved from the small town where everyone knows each other to the big city group of like-minded people, alone in a crowd etc.etc. etc.
The "modernization" of society is reflected in MMO games, without a doubt.
Everything is faster and easier and cheaper and better looking thanks to technology.
For all we have gained, plenty has been lost.
And so marches on the never ending never slowing parade of progress....
This is mostly true, except that the size of the communities where meaningful relationships are had has not changed over time (but the game sizes have, which is why your comment about community moving from server to guild is true.)
The size of communiites with meaningful relationships is mostly just a natural trait of the human mind.
The other major factor is strife. Take a group of people and have them fight a war together, and you'll see some incredible comraderie. But the goal of games is fun, not strife, so you miss out on that aspect -- except in really terrible games which put players through hell. Granted, I think you can get a little of this without having shitty gameplay, as long as gameplay is challenging.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"Find a guild and stick with it." If I had a dime everytime I heard someone say that I'd have like $20.
I was in a roleplaying server in WOW, and there were ZERO all Gnome guilds, how lame is that. What says roleplay better than being in a uni-racial group that hangs around Gnomerang occasionally?
No, WOW and all the WOW-clones is only about grinding and raiding. Grind and raid, grind and raid, that's all you do. When Blizzard introduced the "gulid perks" patch, everyone joined a guild to get the "guild perks" and I ended up in an Alt-aholics guild (addicted to making alts, not raiding). That lasted about 1 month before I unsubscribed again.
"Find a guild and stick with it." If I had a dime everytime I heard someone say that I'd have like $20.
I was in a roleplaying server in WOW, and there were ZERO all Gnome guilds, how lame is that. What says roleplay better than being in a uni-racial group that hangs around Gnomerang occasionally?
It's probably a bit intense to expect that people are going to want to be in a guild with only one race. Oh, I imagine it happens but not very common.
And the first bit of advice is correct provided you do more than just "find a guild".
When i started warhammer someone asked me if I wanted to join their guild. I said no. They asked why and i told them I was just checking the game out and if I decided to stick with it I'd want to do some research and find a group of people who were like minded and shared my same idea of how to play the game as well as treat each other.
His response? "It's not a life decision".
the thing is, it "is" a life decision. maybe not one that will greatly impact your "real" life but it does impact your game life. More often than not I see people who join guilds just because they got an invite.
Rarely do I encounter people who joined a guild because the people were exactl what they were looking for. Well, except the people who join the scamming, griefing guilds and then they get all upset when they get screwed over and it begs one to say "you reap what you sow".
So yes, finding a good guild with like minded "good" people will be a boon to your gaming experience.
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"Find a guild and stick with it." If I had a dime everytime I heard someone say that I'd have like $20.
I was in a roleplaying server in WOW, and there were ZERO all Gnome guilds, how lame is that. What says roleplay better than being in a uni-racial group that hangs around Gnomerang occasionally?
It's probably a bit intense to expect that people are going to want to be in a guild with only one race. Oh, I imagine it happens but not very common.
And the first bit of advice is correct provided you do more than just "find a guild".
When i started warhammer someone asked me if I wanted to join their guild. I said no. They asked why and i told them I was just checking the game out and if I decided to stick with it I'd want to do some research and find a group of people who were like minded and shared my same idea of how to play the game as well as treat each other.
His response? "It's not a life decision".
the thing is, it "is" a life decision. maybe not one that will greatly impact your "real" life but it does impact your game life. More often than not I see people who join guilds just because they got an invite.
Rarely do I encounter people who joined a guild because the people were exactl what they were looking for. Well, except the people who join the scamming, griefing guilds and then they get all upset when they get screwed over and it begs one to say "you reap what you sow".
So yes, finding a good guild with like minded "good" people will be a boon to your gaming experience.
Guess you've never read much fantasy fiction before. Except for the main characters the elves hang with the elves, the humans hang with the humans, the gnomes hang with the gnomes, the dwarves hang out with the dwarves, and generally distrust each other. You know what would be cool, a phalanx of dwarves, or an army of archer elves, but I guess that's asking too much for an RPG on a roleplaying server.
You know what a guild is? It is a collection of grinders who grind in mutual cooperation. WOW how interesting, not.
"Find a guild and stick with it." If I had a dime everytime I heard someone say that I'd have like $20.
I was in a roleplaying server in WOW, and there were ZERO all Gnome guilds, how lame is that. What says roleplay better than being in a uni-racial group that hangs around Gnomerang occasionally?
It's probably a bit intense to expect that people are going to want to be in a guild with only one race. Oh, I imagine it happens but not very common.
And the first bit of advice is correct provided you do more than just "find a guild".
When i started warhammer someone asked me if I wanted to join their guild. I said no. They asked why and i told them I was just checking the game out and if I decided to stick with it I'd want to do some research and find a group of people who were like minded and shared my same idea of how to play the game as well as treat each other.
His response? "It's not a life decision".
the thing is, it "is" a life decision. maybe not one that will greatly impact your "real" life but it does impact your game life. More often than not I see people who join guilds just because they got an invite.
Rarely do I encounter people who joined a guild because the people were exactl what they were looking for. Well, except the people who join the scamming, griefing guilds and then they get all upset when they get screwed over and it begs one to say "you reap what you sow".
So yes, finding a good guild with like minded "good" people will be a boon to your gaming experience.
Guess you've never read much fantasy fiction before. Except for the main characters the elves hang with the elves, the humans hang with the humans, the gnomes hang with the gnomes, the dwarves hang out with the dwarves, and generally distrust each other. You know what would be cool, a phalanx of dwarves, or an army of archer elves, but I guess that's asking too much for an RPG on a roleplaying server.
Well, I've read enough, some good much of it not so good.
but I still say that many players are going to want to play the races they want to play. Just because fantasy fiction has it that races don't trust each other doesn't mean that all players are going to want to adopt this idea.
Especially if there aren't enough good role playing guilds available.
I mean, would you rather stick to your guns and wait around for an all gnome guild or find a group that is just a good role play guild?
And as I recall, most stories have it that the hero and his/her companions are of mixed race. As a matter of fact I can't recall a fantasy story where they just stick to one race in the party. From what I can remember, all the fantasy stories I read whe i was youn had a mixed party. Even if the predomant race was human they had different human races from different parts of the land.
I would agree that a phalanx of dwarves descending on "whatever" would look cool. But being realistic do you really expect players to not only be role players but also a one race role play guild at that?
Espeically since many players want to develop a character that intersts and excites them. I'm not saying it's not possible but I would suspect that getting a large group of players to agree on one race would be rare and that getting into a good role play guild with good players would yield better gaming results.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Well, I've read enough, some good much of it not so good.
but I still say that many players are going to want to play the races they want to play. Just because fantasy fiction has it that races don't trust each other doesn't mean that all players are going to want to adopt this idea.
No, players chose specific races to min/max stats nomatter how much they dislike their character's style or look.
I read many of your post Elikal and many times I just nod and don’t say much but today I decided to open my mouth and give you the truth of the game business. I am not an ‘authority’ nor a big dog just a guy that loves to game and loves to interact with others in my game play. I design my own stuff and play around with it so I get some feedback from higher up in the food chain.
If you have a desire to get involved in a game community then you need to go back in time to games like DAoC, UO and so on. Be aware though even these games have changed form the community driven efforts to a one set mind - ME. In DAoC you can theoretically run 5 dungeons from level 1 to 50 and gain 300 points in champion without ever once meeting another player. You can make one character and become legendary crafter in every profession and not ever have to rely on another player for gear.
In EQ you can hire a mercenary and never have to concern your self with needing a healer. You can solo 99% of the game and never have to ask for help.
But who is to blame? The players themselves? They ask for easy mode because the time factor. Developers are giving them the exact thing they want.
Back 5 years ago I started working on a MMORPG it was to be a unique community driven game with a unique rule set. I got a small team together and we began to work on the goals. Eventually the guys and gals realized that this was a long haul and we needed money to pay ourselves so we could devote more time to it and less to working regular jobs. I made several attempts at getting funding and was discouraged to the point I pulled the plug on development and decided to just hobby it. Knowing the complexity and the time frame (I would be dead before it was finished) I knew it would never get done so I even stopped working on it.
Recently a friend of mine asked me about the game and wanted to know where it was in development. He said he had money and was interested in making it happen. I told him the truth that it was so radical and different that any investor declined it because it was to risky, to reallistic, was not a World of Warcraft clone. I had been through enough turndowns to know. Another big dog told me that it was not a build cheap and fail fast design which makes tons of money even if they fail. I told my friend no. He offered 5 million and I was stupid to turn it down. I finally agreed so I went about the process of raising my old team and grabbing a few new ones only to find out he lied. He was convinced that there would be some venture capital made available and was disillusioned that business will risk a far fetched idea to a sure thing.
Even this board here has changed. It use to be that guys and gals like me could openly discuss our ideas in this forum and sometimes get the front page. mmorpg.com has become a much different board than I knew in 2004. It caters to the big dogs and pushes the little independents into a small corner where their ideas are seldom seen yet promotes any big developers ideals. You see the connection?
Why am I telling you this?
Community driven games with deep story and simple rules are not the craze anymore. Society as a whole is into a me me and only me mentality. Game makers are capitalizing on the very emotions of the societies desires to give the game players what they want.
Until society changes their desires don’t expect the game makers to change what sells.
Best advice I can give is to grab a good Single player game, run it in a window and open irrc or your favorite chat program.
I've noticed that newer MMO's have changed me as a player as well. Back in the day, I was a very social player. Some of my fondest memories were with my guild that I had become close with. However, as games get more solo based, I too am avoiding player cocntact for the most part. I find myself avoiding joining a guild entirely in some games now. There's almost no difference anymore between rpg's and MMO's... for the most part anyway.
"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"-Voltaire
I actually got banned from WoW forums a while back when the dungeon finder tool came out for saying that the kind of people it grouped you with, were people who I would never group with in any other situation. It matched us by gear, but not personalities. So you would spend 95% of your time dealing with morons, assholes and complete jerks.
One thing I notice with regularity is some blame falling on "solo" players as being responsible for a breakdown in "community."
I'd like to say I think that's a little harsh and unrealistic. When I began gaming, I was big on community. I remember one of my first online games was *blush* quake. The first one. I was with a small ISP and we had our own server there and about 20 semi-regular players and 8 of us who were there almost 24/7. The community was awesome. But that's because we were few. We'd always heard about our city's largest ISP having a big awesome quake community of 100+ and that the games were even more hardcore. Many of us quit the small ISP due to irritations, and hopped to the big one, looking for a nice game.
What we found was, that at the older ISP, whenever we logged in, everyone would say "hi" and while we were shooting each other's asses off, we were talking. About our day. About the game. Tactics. And then we moved to the bigger ISP. I remember hopping in, typing out a "hi" and getting my head blown off. Not that I minded getting my head blown off - that's the point of the game. But in the next few weeks I doggedly tried to enjoy the game but found I couldn't, because no one ever said "hi."
Moving forward to mmos, that same reality still exists. The public chats are seen as negative experiences, and for the most part they're really a waste of time. Filled with spammers or trolls and when you say "hi" or try to join a conversation, you'll more than likely be dismissed because you aren't level 4000 yet, have a glowy sword or you've got a name which isn't a l33t pun.
Joining guilds introduces you to what you think will be an awesome experience, too. But it mirrors the old quake experience. You join a small one with guys wanting to hang out and have fun, and you often get a positive experience. Until endgame, when everyone's far too fun-oriented to be "pro" at raiding. So, you hop it to a more "pro" guild and find it's not as much fun.
The community element to any game, in my opinion, revolves around the fun factor. Are we all having FUN together?
Not anymore.
You want to know what REALLY killed communities? I'll tell you. It wasn't "solo" players. It wasn't "ftp".
It was us.
We wanted to succeed in our raids without resorting to "fun."
We don't want to die. We don't want to fail. We don't want someone laughing at our guild because we've tried doing a raid sixteen times and failed each time. We don't want anyone to think our dps isn't more superior to that guy's. So we focus on maths. We get dps-meters. We inspect each others' armours and sneer if it isn't gemmed right, or they're using the "wrong" sword. We refuse to have this guy in our party because he's using the wrong build. We don't want that guy, because he hasn't "learnt" the fights by watching youtube and answering a sixteen point questionaire based on showing he can prove he "knows" the fight.
It's not the solo players or the ftp that killed it. It's the absolute refusal to have fun losing. The dedication to "teamwork" that has seen the whole idea of raiding with a bunch of guys/girls as a game turn into a serious near-military exercise. It sucked the personality from the idea of grouping and injected it with the need to blame someone when things don't succeed. Once upon a time, we may have chuckled when we died. Dusted ourselves off, regrouped, and gone running back in. But these days, one wipe and half the group ragequits, calling everyone else losers. Maths is our focus. And who here genuinely enjoyed maths in high school? It was never a very big community-building class.
My solution: destroy dps meters, rip out the holy trinity, hide all numbers relating to your build other than what points you're putting into when you level, randomise dungeons so you can't "know" the fight (and have to face the challenge of *shock horror* thinking on the run), doing away with numbers to represent health of both enemies and self, and bring a level of uncertainty back. In this way you end up judging each other by how well you work as a team, rather than using some petty mathematical formula akin to primary-school love matching games.
Fun cannot be measured. And if you think about the games you all had genuine fun in and enjoyed the community with, well, they're the ones you didn't spend half your time with a calculator trying to justify your position in a guild by using the power of algebra. If you did use a calculator, it was for yourself. As soon as we can cut that disastrous level of constantly tearing each other apart for our choices within the game to play how we want to play, the sooner we can all see that the differences in how we play are what actually makes for a good community in the first place. That playing the same way, with the same gear and the same build means we may as well go back to playing quake.
Well, I've read enough, some good much of it not so good.
but I still say that many players are going to want to play the races they want to play. Just because fantasy fiction has it that races don't trust each other doesn't mean that all players are going to want to adopt this idea.
Some players chose specific races to min/max stats nomatter how much they dislike their character's style or look.
fixed that for you.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I been saying this for the last couple years. I agree 100%. MMO gamers have changed ALOT in the last 5-6 years. During Everquest, DAOC, and games before it had computer people. You know the once that could afford a computer and loved them. Treating computer as a hobby and loved a challenge. People that know exactly what a BBS is and maybe even who played BRE. They are just lost memories now and missed the gold ol days.
For me the three BANES of MMOs are soloism, Teamspeak and F2P.
Soloism made people arrogant, because they do not depend on another.
TS makes people elitarian and kills the open world communities.
F2P destroyes the spirit of long term dedication to games.
I profoundly, passionately hate these three. Not in itself, but because of the damage they do to community spirit.
Soloism allows players to play the game at their own pace, forced grouping is an artificial and archaic form of timesinks.
TS and Vent are a wonderful way to communicate when prolonged and detailed communication is necessary, I find it funny and oxymoronic that a person who despises Soloism on the one hand also openly advocates against the single greatest tool that brings people together while in prolonged grouping scenarios.
FTP I agree (although I prefer to call them Pay to Win), on the other hand GW1 and GW2 model utilyze a Buy to Play model that seems to work.
I would like to add that my game of choice Asherons Call has a core design principle that doesnt focus on 1 particular gamestyle but the difference is that any character can solo, but a peron is rewarded slightly when they do group, to me this is the best way to handle it. Forced anything is a detriment to a good game, whether it be Forced Grouping (EQ or DAoC) or Forced Raiding to see endgame content (WoW or Rift and soon to be SWToR).
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I've noticed that newer MMO's have changed me as a player as well. Back in the day, I was a very social player. Some of my fondest memories were with my guild that I had become close with. However, as games get more solo based, I too am avoiding player cocntact for the most part. ... snip ...
I have to chuckle at seeing this. It's fairly close to my view as well. I'll pass along a brief story that pretty well sums up my most recent experience:
I play a F2P that's fairly popular. I usually play it late at night, and most of my experiences with hit have been good.
I logged in this past Saturday in the middle of the afternoon. Trade chat was polluted with trash talk.
"Stop harassing my friends or I'll report you"... then that person went off on harassing someone else in trade channel who was only trying to sell some gear.
"You GD MF... stay the he** out my area when I'm grinding. You KNOW this is MY grinding spot".
Then in local chat was some Romeo who got ditched by an online GF... "You are my life and love, and blah blah blah" ... "I can't stand feeling this way, it's time for me to take the gun" ... "Oh my darling, my love and my life" ... Well you get the picture.
This was my last straw. I'm sorry, but until I can find a decent community I'm turning chat off.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
For SOME strange reasons I really would like to know, the LOTRO community has always been particularly bad. At least here on the German servers. People attack, bitch, bicker, steal mobs... every single bit of MMO netiquette of the past is broken. And sorry to say, if I look at this forum and the endless attacks on each other, it doesn't look much more welcoming. So in evenings like this, when I again had series of jerks ruining my fun in a MMO... I wonder when did it all go down the drain? I mean, there sure is a tad glorification of the past, but by and large I know I did not experience such endless series of flames, mean behavior and harrasment in the past as these days. And I am kinda clueless how to deal with it, other than shutting down all chat channels and playing MMOs alone - which sort of beats the point.
Sigh.
Just bad luck, i share some of the fondest MMO memmories from LOTRO espescially in the old days as the book quests still requirted a group to play through..... But also more recently playing with guildies in Skirmishes...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
So you are saying those that funded these companies through initial game purchases and monthly fees and made it possible for those that came Post -WoW to continue to enjoy MMORPG's should leave the genre now? Just because the new majority, which consists of manily greedy, selfish, self entitlement and instant gratification players that whine to make them more like console games that make them feel "special"? Like the hero?
MMO's were about COMMUNITY at one time, that is what sperated them from console games. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with soloing. You SHOULD have multiple options...after all, that is yet another feature of MMO's that seperate them. Hell, even in my days back in EQ, I soloed at times. Although it was MUCH harder to do then than it is now. But the vast majority of MMO content, as well as players "wants" are geared towards it now. There is nearly no community in MMO's now...just cliques and small groups of people. That isn't community.
And those saying "Find a good Guild and stick to them"...that isn't an answer. You shouldn't HAVE to find a Guild and only communicate within it while ignoring the rest of the server's population. Just sad days anymore. MMORPG's are nealry extinct as what they once were.
They are VERY few and far between. Especially in today's instant gratification easy-mode MMO's where any foam helmet wearing drool bib recipient can pick them up and get to cap.
But I found PLENTY of them in one MMO. I am currently re-subbed to and playing...and enjoying a lot. Great, helpful and unselfish community, people group, almost no smartasses or elitist toolbags...and despite it's age, LOTS of people still playing it after nearly 13 years and 17 expansions. It's EQ1, and a perfect example of what MMO's once were and what makes them a seperate genre.
Sure, it has bland combat (Hit melee attack and stand and wait), and sure it doesn't have pretty graphics, but it has the one thing nealry all modern MMO's lack...a REAL community. Also a large open world (Despite zone lines, still a huge world that feels MUCH more open than most of today's linear funneled MMO's.)
I'm saying that if anybody is going to leave, it should probably be the people whose needs aren't being serviced, yes?
If somebody doesn't like the current direction of MMORPGs, then they probably shouldn't be playing them and complaining about all the people there who the MMORPGs are specifically designed for.
That's like me going into McDonalds and ranting at them for serving so much beef, when I don't eat red meat.
I'm not really sure what the point is. Other than to have some confused McDonalds employees, and a bunch of people laughing at you behind your back.
... but that's the thing. The MMORPG makers know what they're doing. THey can make a game targeted towards the biggest audience, slap MMORPG on it, and they'll still somehow manage to sell tons of box copies to people who hate what modern MMORPGs stand for, just because... I'm not sure why!
I haven't bought an MMORPG for ages.
(shrug) Saying that the new people should leave is silly though, because they're the biggest target audience, and that's who the game is made for. NOt the older generation.
people in general have changed in the last 5 or 6 years, we are now even bigger consumer whores than before. greed is common place in society and everyone hates each other..just what the powers that be want.
That's exactly why I solo. There certainly are a few good people here and there, but they're completely buried under the people who can't spell, spend all their time making fart jokes and inappropriate comments, cussing up a storm (and spelling it wrong), etc. I have no interest whatsoever in spending any time around any of these immature, uneducated asshats and they seem to make up a large portion of most game communities.
So count me as a soloer until things change.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I NEVER said they should leave. Just trying to get the majority of them to understand the difference between console games and MMO's and why they are different genre's. But when you try and tell them what they ask for is more geared towards console gaming (Where I am willing to bet most of these new players come from. TY Blizzard =/), and maybe that is where they are better suited to play if that is what they are looking for....not meaning they should leave MMO's, just suggesting maybe that is what is better suited for their taste.....they flame you and tell you how stupid you are because they just don't get it.
And if some MMO's want to go towards console gaming features...that is fine I guess. But what REALLY twists my niblets is not ONE wants to stay traditional all in the name of greed. There are PLENTY of players on these forums, and on traditional, and MUCH older MMO's still playing that would jump at a newer MMO with traditional features. But, no one will do it. Why? Because there is way too much more potential to get a new yatch filtering money off of the clueless new masses and giving them anything and everything they want to fill there swiss bank accounts. SO MANY newer MMO's have so much crap content, except in areas where the masses are whining for it. Mainly "end game" and making things stupid easy.
I don't leave MMO's because I love them...I just sit and wait and hope SOME company will get the beanbags to create a traditional MMO with some creativity and substance. I feel many others feel the same and wait in vain like I do.
P.S. Curently back in EQ1. 20 minutes into getting reacquainted with my characters I had already made 2 friends...1 of which hooked me up with platinum (pp) and gear. People answer questions without smartass remarks, and it has been just all around enjoyable.
Yes, it doesn't have exciting combat (auto attack) or amazing graphics, but it has one thing nealry all modern MMO's lack....COMMUNITY.
You can thank Blizzard for mainstreaming MMO's with their easy-mode mechanics and mass advertisement. I liked it much better when MMO's were a niche genre.
Yes, MMO gamers have changed, and it's because the MMOs have change. These games now cater to mouth-breathing morons who would normally get their rocks off in some FPS game. I love a good FPS, but let's face it, it's a cess pool of DBs. Now they are spilling over into the MMO genre, because these games are combat-focused and simple.
Games companies have almost completely removed community aspects of these games, so there is no social motivation to be a respectful, useful member. In SWG, it was more of a virtual world, so people could make a name for themselves whether it was for being a total jerk, or for being a great crafter, helping new people, being a skilled but respectful PvP dominator, or whatever. The other aspect is, that because the game catered to just about every style you can think of from combat to entertainer, it attracted a whole spectrum of differents kinds of people. The player diversity not only made for much more interesting gameplay, it also helped create a self-sustaining social structure. Think about it. Half the classes in the game were non-combat and people loved them.
In addition, player housing in SWG, and even the player towns, had BAN HAMMERS! Anyime you decided to be a jerk, you ran the risk of being banned from a great shop or a whole town. This could be a heavy blow if you need products from skilled crafters. For a while there was a bounty system too for the bounty hunters to take people out. Not only did these features make the game more fun, but they added a sort of risk/reward system.
Being a villian isn't bad. I loved that SWG had people who just wanted to be bad apples, and because most of the server was respectful, these people grew huge reputations. It was ok though. They chose to play that way, and it was very interesting for everyone. The problem in today's games is you end up with a population where over half the player base are sociopaths.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
It is, isn't it? Still some people can't be bothered to see the subtlety of your message. Some will need to be hit over the head with it.
Elikal: what about gamers who become more solo player due to how the community has changed over the years.
As that happend to me, started MMORPG with meridian (still at the time didn't even know the term MMORPG) but my most favorite MMORPG experiance was Star Wars Galaxies, I was all over it and was incredible social, we had a guild and even became pretty close friends which I lost during many chances and moves to other mmorpg's. But overall I was completely into the community aspect of the game. From my eperiance people wanted either to be feared or loved and over time people just started not to care about the ingame world, but started to care towards stats and how fast they could reach cap lvl. Kinda feel that mainstream internet brought in gamers that where used to solo games that relied purely on stats and fast leveling and didn't have the experiance being withness to worlds that where shapes to make your place in.
Over the years switching myself to other MMORPG I became less and less inclined to join groups cause the overall experiance was alway's people worriing about their loot, people in this rush to cap lvl asap, suddenly endgame became the most popular atraction towards the majority.
All this and much more I didn't even mentioned made me more and more a solo player
This is mostly true, except that the size of the communities where meaningful relationships are had has not changed over time (but the game sizes have, which is why your comment about community moving from server to guild is true.)
The size of communiites with meaningful relationships is mostly just a natural trait of the human mind.
The other major factor is strife. Take a group of people and have them fight a war together, and you'll see some incredible comraderie. But the goal of games is fun, not strife, so you miss out on that aspect -- except in really terrible games which put players through hell. Granted, I think you can get a little of this without having shitty gameplay, as long as gameplay is challenging.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"Find a guild and stick with it." If I had a dime everytime I heard someone say that I'd have like $20.
I was in a roleplaying server in WOW, and there were ZERO all Gnome guilds, how lame is that. What says roleplay better than being in a uni-racial group that hangs around Gnomerang occasionally?
No, WOW and all the WOW-clones is only about grinding and raiding. Grind and raid, grind and raid, that's all you do. When Blizzard introduced the "gulid perks" patch, everyone joined a guild to get the "guild perks" and I ended up in an Alt-aholics guild (addicted to making alts, not raiding). That lasted about 1 month before I unsubscribed again.
It's probably a bit intense to expect that people are going to want to be in a guild with only one race. Oh, I imagine it happens but not very common.
And the first bit of advice is correct provided you do more than just "find a guild".
When i started warhammer someone asked me if I wanted to join their guild. I said no. They asked why and i told them I was just checking the game out and if I decided to stick with it I'd want to do some research and find a group of people who were like minded and shared my same idea of how to play the game as well as treat each other.
His response? "It's not a life decision".
the thing is, it "is" a life decision. maybe not one that will greatly impact your "real" life but it does impact your game life. More often than not I see people who join guilds just because they got an invite.
Rarely do I encounter people who joined a guild because the people were exactl what they were looking for. Well, except the people who join the scamming, griefing guilds and then they get all upset when they get screwed over and it begs one to say "you reap what you sow".
So yes, finding a good guild with like minded "good" people will be a boon to your gaming experience.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Guess you've never read much fantasy fiction before. Except for the main characters the elves hang with the elves, the humans hang with the humans, the gnomes hang with the gnomes, the dwarves hang out with the dwarves, and generally distrust each other. You know what would be cool, a phalanx of dwarves, or an army of archer elves, but I guess that's asking too much for an RPG on a roleplaying server.
You know what a guild is? It is a collection of grinders who grind in mutual cooperation. WOW how interesting, not.
Well, I've read enough, some good much of it not so good.
but I still say that many players are going to want to play the races they want to play. Just because fantasy fiction has it that races don't trust each other doesn't mean that all players are going to want to adopt this idea.
Especially if there aren't enough good role playing guilds available.
I mean, would you rather stick to your guns and wait around for an all gnome guild or find a group that is just a good role play guild?
And as I recall, most stories have it that the hero and his/her companions are of mixed race. As a matter of fact I can't recall a fantasy story where they just stick to one race in the party. From what I can remember, all the fantasy stories I read whe i was youn had a mixed party. Even if the predomant race was human they had different human races from different parts of the land.
I would agree that a phalanx of dwarves descending on "whatever" would look cool. But being realistic do you really expect players to not only be role players but also a one race role play guild at that?
Espeically since many players want to develop a character that intersts and excites them. I'm not saying it's not possible but I would suspect that getting a large group of players to agree on one race would be rare and that getting into a good role play guild with good players would yield better gaming results.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I read many of your post Elikal and many times I just nod and don’t say much but today I decided to open my mouth and give you the truth of the game business. I am not an ‘authority’ nor a big dog just a guy that loves to game and loves to interact with others in my game play. I design my own stuff and play around with it so I get some feedback from higher up in the food chain.
If you have a desire to get involved in a game community then you need to go back in time to games like DAoC, UO and so on. Be aware though even these games have changed form the community driven efforts to a one set mind - ME. In DAoC you can theoretically run 5 dungeons from level 1 to 50 and gain 300 points in champion without ever once meeting another player. You can make one character and become legendary crafter in every profession and not ever have to rely on another player for gear.
In EQ you can hire a mercenary and never have to concern your self with needing a healer. You can solo 99% of the game and never have to ask for help.
But who is to blame? The players themselves? They ask for easy mode because the time factor. Developers are giving them the exact thing they want.
Back 5 years ago I started working on a MMORPG it was to be a unique community driven game with a unique rule set. I got a small team together and we began to work on the goals. Eventually the guys and gals realized that this was a long haul and we needed money to pay ourselves so we could devote more time to it and less to working regular jobs. I made several attempts at getting funding and was discouraged to the point I pulled the plug on development and decided to just hobby it. Knowing the complexity and the time frame (I would be dead before it was finished) I knew it would never get done so I even stopped working on it.
Recently a friend of mine asked me about the game and wanted to know where it was in development. He said he had money and was interested in making it happen. I told him the truth that it was so radical and different that any investor declined it because it was to risky, to reallistic, was not a World of Warcraft clone. I had been through enough turndowns to know. Another big dog told me that it was not a build cheap and fail fast design which makes tons of money even if they fail. I told my friend no. He offered 5 million and I was stupid to turn it down. I finally agreed so I went about the process of raising my old team and grabbing a few new ones only to find out he lied. He was convinced that there would be some venture capital made available and was disillusioned that business will risk a far fetched idea to a sure thing.
Even this board here has changed. It use to be that guys and gals like me could openly discuss our ideas in this forum and sometimes get the front page. mmorpg.com has become a much different board than I knew in 2004. It caters to the big dogs and pushes the little independents into a small corner where their ideas are seldom seen yet promotes any big developers ideals. You see the connection?
Why am I telling you this?
Community driven games with deep story and simple rules are not the craze anymore. Society as a whole is into a me me and only me mentality. Game makers are capitalizing on the very emotions of the societies desires to give the game players what they want.
Until society changes their desires don’t expect the game makers to change what sells.
Best advice I can give is to grab a good Single player game, run it in a window and open irrc or your favorite chat program.
You will hardly notice a difference.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
I've noticed that newer MMO's have changed me as a player as well. Back in the day, I was a very social player. Some of my fondest memories were with my guild that I had become close with. However, as games get more solo based, I too am avoiding player cocntact for the most part. I find myself avoiding joining a guild entirely in some games now. There's almost no difference anymore between rpg's and MMO's... for the most part anyway.
"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"-Voltaire
I find myself finding the same problems.
I try and comunicate with players in mmos and I get totally ignored!
Everyone is doing there own thing, soloing EVERYTHING.
When was a boss soloable in a game?
Well aparently now they are...
I try talking to people just for conversation, and not even to get help for anything, yet still I am ignored.
It's frustrating and totally defeats the point of mmorpgs.
The saddest thing is I find myself joining guilds and barely even interacting with said guilds.
When I do find a good guild that isn't silent 99% of the time that's the only people I talk to.
So basically in a world of thousands of people...
I talk to about 10-20 people maybe.
And of these 10-20 people I usually maybe only see 1-3 of the characters that they play.
So in a game of thousands of people I'm really only truly interacting with 3 people at most as what I guess you could call "friends".
How depressing is that?
Smile
I actually got banned from WoW forums a while back when the dungeon finder tool came out for saying that the kind of people it grouped you with, were people who I would never group with in any other situation. It matched us by gear, but not personalities. So you would spend 95% of your time dealing with morons, assholes and complete jerks.
One thing I notice with regularity is some blame falling on "solo" players as being responsible for a breakdown in "community."
I'd like to say I think that's a little harsh and unrealistic. When I began gaming, I was big on community. I remember one of my first online games was *blush* quake. The first one. I was with a small ISP and we had our own server there and about 20 semi-regular players and 8 of us who were there almost 24/7. The community was awesome. But that's because we were few. We'd always heard about our city's largest ISP having a big awesome quake community of 100+ and that the games were even more hardcore. Many of us quit the small ISP due to irritations, and hopped to the big one, looking for a nice game.
What we found was, that at the older ISP, whenever we logged in, everyone would say "hi" and while we were shooting each other's asses off, we were talking. About our day. About the game. Tactics. And then we moved to the bigger ISP. I remember hopping in, typing out a "hi" and getting my head blown off. Not that I minded getting my head blown off - that's the point of the game. But in the next few weeks I doggedly tried to enjoy the game but found I couldn't, because no one ever said "hi."
Moving forward to mmos, that same reality still exists. The public chats are seen as negative experiences, and for the most part they're really a waste of time. Filled with spammers or trolls and when you say "hi" or try to join a conversation, you'll more than likely be dismissed because you aren't level 4000 yet, have a glowy sword or you've got a name which isn't a l33t pun.
Joining guilds introduces you to what you think will be an awesome experience, too. But it mirrors the old quake experience. You join a small one with guys wanting to hang out and have fun, and you often get a positive experience. Until endgame, when everyone's far too fun-oriented to be "pro" at raiding. So, you hop it to a more "pro" guild and find it's not as much fun.
The community element to any game, in my opinion, revolves around the fun factor. Are we all having FUN together?
Not anymore.
You want to know what REALLY killed communities? I'll tell you. It wasn't "solo" players. It wasn't "ftp".
It was us.
We wanted to succeed in our raids without resorting to "fun."
We don't want to die. We don't want to fail. We don't want someone laughing at our guild because we've tried doing a raid sixteen times and failed each time. We don't want anyone to think our dps isn't more superior to that guy's. So we focus on maths. We get dps-meters. We inspect each others' armours and sneer if it isn't gemmed right, or they're using the "wrong" sword. We refuse to have this guy in our party because he's using the wrong build. We don't want that guy, because he hasn't "learnt" the fights by watching youtube and answering a sixteen point questionaire based on showing he can prove he "knows" the fight.
It's not the solo players or the ftp that killed it. It's the absolute refusal to have fun losing. The dedication to "teamwork" that has seen the whole idea of raiding with a bunch of guys/girls as a game turn into a serious near-military exercise. It sucked the personality from the idea of grouping and injected it with the need to blame someone when things don't succeed. Once upon a time, we may have chuckled when we died. Dusted ourselves off, regrouped, and gone running back in. But these days, one wipe and half the group ragequits, calling everyone else losers. Maths is our focus. And who here genuinely enjoyed maths in high school? It was never a very big community-building class.
My solution: destroy dps meters, rip out the holy trinity, hide all numbers relating to your build other than what points you're putting into when you level, randomise dungeons so you can't "know" the fight (and have to face the challenge of *shock horror* thinking on the run), doing away with numbers to represent health of both enemies and self, and bring a level of uncertainty back. In this way you end up judging each other by how well you work as a team, rather than using some petty mathematical formula akin to primary-school love matching games.
Fun cannot be measured. And if you think about the games you all had genuine fun in and enjoyed the community with, well, they're the ones you didn't spend half your time with a calculator trying to justify your position in a guild by using the power of algebra. If you did use a calculator, it was for yourself. As soon as we can cut that disastrous level of constantly tearing each other apart for our choices within the game to play how we want to play, the sooner we can all see that the differences in how we play are what actually makes for a good community in the first place. That playing the same way, with the same gear and the same build means we may as well go back to playing quake.
fixed that for you.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Soloism allows players to play the game at their own pace, forced grouping is an artificial and archaic form of timesinks.
TS and Vent are a wonderful way to communicate when prolonged and detailed communication is necessary, I find it funny and oxymoronic that a person who despises Soloism on the one hand also openly advocates against the single greatest tool that brings people together while in prolonged grouping scenarios.
FTP I agree (although I prefer to call them Pay to Win), on the other hand GW1 and GW2 model utilyze a Buy to Play model that seems to work.
I would like to add that my game of choice Asherons Call has a core design principle that doesnt focus on 1 particular gamestyle but the difference is that any character can solo, but a peron is rewarded slightly when they do group, to me this is the best way to handle it. Forced anything is a detriment to a good game, whether it be Forced Grouping (EQ or DAoC) or Forced Raiding to see endgame content (WoW or Rift and soon to be SWToR).
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I have to chuckle at seeing this. It's fairly close to my view as well. I'll pass along a brief story that pretty well sums up my most recent experience:
I play a F2P that's fairly popular. I usually play it late at night, and most of my experiences with hit have been good.
I logged in this past Saturday in the middle of the afternoon. Trade chat was polluted with trash talk.
"Stop harassing my friends or I'll report you"... then that person went off on harassing someone else in trade channel who was only trying to sell some gear.
"You GD MF... stay the he** out my area when I'm grinding. You KNOW this is MY grinding spot".
Then in local chat was some Romeo who got ditched by an online GF... "You are my life and love, and blah blah blah" ... "I can't stand feeling this way, it's time for me to take the gun" ... "Oh my darling, my love and my life" ... Well you get the picture.
This was my last straw. I'm sorry, but until I can find a decent community I'm turning chat off.
Just bad luck, i share some of the fondest MMO memmories from LOTRO espescially in the old days as the book quests still requirted a group to play through..... But also more recently playing with guildies in Skirmishes...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)