Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Korea May Ban D3 over Real Money Auction House trading

13567

Comments

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Cavod
    What really gets me about the whole thing is do you actually own the item when you purchase it?
     
    Because like all MMOs already do, I'm sure Blizzard will retain the right of ownership to all virtual data.
     
    So how can you possible sell something you do not own? 
     
    I see lawsuits in the future of the RMAH.


    There is no ownership transfer going on. Nobody is selling any goods. It's all a service. You're transferring the service of running around with a particular set of pixels to another user. The service lasts as long as the account isn't banned or until the service is shut down.

    There may be lawsuits, because people are stupid, but nobody is going to win anything.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by treysmooth

    Originally posted by DeathTouch
    I'm just waiting for the government to scream, "WHERE ARE MY TAXES?"
     
    Totally this, the game companies keep pushing rmt and in some games what amounts to gambling(not actually referring to d3 with that part of the comment) and eventually the govenerment is going to see what is going on in these online games and go where is my chunk.  It seems like most game companies would rather try to make the cash that can be made before it all goes south with government over regulation.



    Governments are already getting there taxes. Where did people get the idea that governments weren't earning taxes off of RMT? Any money that a company earns is taxed.

    Also, it's not gambling anymore than auctions are gambling. Even if virtual goods were changing hands (which they are not), auctions are not classified as gambling in the United States.

    Also, South Korea doesn't care if what happens is 'really gambling' or not. All they care about is how it affects the people using it. If people behave as if it's gambling, they will ban it. Blizzard will then cut it off in the South Korean market.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • LanfeaLanfea Member UncommonPosts: 223

    if you are really interested in this subject and open to some very good arguments, take your time and read this:

    http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/09/diablo-3-and-illegal-online-gambling.html

     

    and i like to add that there is another legal problem with the RMAH within D3 if we compare it with an internet portal like eBay. you have to be 18, at least in many european countries, to sell on eBay. so it might happen that blizzard is forced by law to ensure that every user of the RMAH is over 18. not really a problem on the first look, but do you know the administrative work behind confirming the age and what permissions and security measures you need as a company to get a hand on this data and this for every damn country?

     

    to be honest it would be a huge failure if blizzards law department didn't thought about this before they implemented the RMAH into their game.

  • sldropsldrop Member Posts: 112

    Originally posted by Lanfea

    if you are really interested in this subject and open to some very good arguments, take your time and read this:

    http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/09/diablo-3-and-illegal-online-gambling.html

     

    and i like to add that there is another legal problem with the RMAH within D3 if we compare it with an internet portal like eBay. you have to be 18, at least in many european countries, to sell on eBay. so it might happen that blizzard is forced by law to ensure that every user of the RMAH is over 18. not really a problem on the first look, but do you know the administrative work behind confirming the age and what permissions and security measures you need as a company to get a hand on this data and this for every damn country?

     

    to be honest it would be a huge failure if blizzards law department didn't thought about this before they implemented the RMAH into their game.

    nice read

    http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/08/rmah-is-gambling-indeed.html

    By changing loot tables and random chance algorithms, Blizzard can alter volume. Volume or rarity = more listings = gambling by the players (but this is not a gamble for the house) = more listing fee revenue (the house always wins)



    Selling an item is a game of chance, there's high risk involved, there's monetary loss involved due to random chance, and it's gambling. If the Auction House is changed so that there is only a cut after a successful auction, then it is not gambling. On a related note, EBay charges fees  however the fee is refunded if your item does not sell.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768

    Originally posted by treysmooth

    Originally posted by DeathTouch

    I'm just waiting for the government to scream, "WHERE ARE MY TAXES?"

     

    Totally this, the game companies keep pushing rmt and in some games what amounts to gambling(not actually referring to d3 with that part of the comment) and eventually the govenerment is going to see what is going on in these online games and go where is my chunk.  It seems like most game companies would rather try to make the cash that can be made before it all goes south with government over regulation.

    My plan is to send letters to the tax boards of all 50 states letting them know they might want to get sales tax on items sold.  Just like buying stuff on amazon.com.

    Then the IRS is getting a letter.  Profits need to be reported. $$$

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • marinridermarinrider Member UncommonPosts: 1,556

    Originally posted by romanator0

    Originally posted by thegypsyking


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

    The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

    How so?

    When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.

    The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.

    In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.

    Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.

    This AH is not gambling.  If it was than any form of real auction would be gambling.  Gambling is when your betting against numbers or odds.  With something like Trading the stock market (which by your definition is gambling), RMAH, or any other auction or even "Mary Kay" or tuperware selling, its all based on your skill and your devotion.  

     

  • CeridithCeridith Member UncommonPosts: 2,980

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by treysmooth





    Originally posted by DeathTouch

    I'm just waiting for the government to scream, "WHERE ARE MY TAXES?"






     

    Totally this, the game companies keep pushing rmt and in some games what amounts to gambling(not actually referring to d3 with that part of the comment) and eventually the govenerment is going to see what is going on in these online games and go where is my chunk.  It seems like most game companies would rather try to make the cash that can be made before it all goes south with government over regulation.








    Governments are already getting there taxes. Where did people get the idea that governments weren't earning taxes off of RMT? Any money that a company earns is taxed.



    Also, it's not gambling anymore than auctions are gambling. Even if virtual goods were changing hands (which they are not), auctions are not classified as gambling in the United States.



    Also, South Korea doesn't care if what happens is 'really gambling' or not. All they care about is how it affects the people using it. If people behave as if it's gambling, they will ban it. Blizzard will then cut it off in the South Korean market.

     

    Actually, not really. The US government only sees RMT related tax revenue from companies based within the US. If the company operates outside of the US, then the US government sees nothing from them. Consider how many illicit RMT companies are around, none of them pay a cent to the US government.

    Furthermore, state governments aren't seeing any sales tax revenue from online sales from out of state retailers, so there's a lot of missed tax revenue.

    Well, actually California just today passed an online sales for out of state retailers that will take effect next year: http://www.ydr.com/business/ci_18976975

    It won't be long until other states, provinces, and countries follow suit.

  • sldropsldrop Member Posts: 112

    Originally posted by marinrider

    Originally posted by romanator0


    Originally posted by thegypsyking


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

    The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

    How so?

    When gambling you pay somebody money to get a chance to make more money.

    The the RMAH you pay Blizzard money to get a chance to make some money.

    In both you aren't guaranteed to make anything.

    Looks like they have the same basic principles to me.

    This AH is not gambling.  If it was than any form of real auction would be gambling.  Gambling is when your betting against numbers or odds.  With something like Trading the stock market (which by your definition is gambling), RMAH, or any other auction or even "Mary Kay" or tuperware selling, its all based on your skill and your devotion.  

     

    I was thinking like you too @marinrider ;

    but after reading http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/09/diablo-3-and-illegal-online-gambling.html it change my thoughts.

    Whereas WOW had fixed loot tables and drops in an "Achiever Economy", Diablo 3 random wins are "indeterministic" and everything has a random chance of dropping varying levels of value. There is no skill required in WHAT drops.. you can't control it, it's like a roulette wheel. So, the "loot generation" is purely a game of chance with no skill. However, there is another game of chance (and skill required) to get TO the loot generation components.. and that's by killing a virtual monster. The gambling part is what the monster might drop when you roll that dice.

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950

    I am a purist at heart, and I think a game should be a game and therefore I think RMT and microtransactions are to be avoided in games, because then you are no longer playing the game but paying to win.

    And in that regard, Blizzard's WoW is one of the few examples left of an mmorpg that you don't have to pay to win.

    However, the sad truth is that if Blizzard can not control the illegal RMT, no one can. They can do their best to minimize it as a whole and after that minimize it's impact.

    Minimizing it's impact is what is key here, and by allowing players to legally buy and sell their items, a whole lot of the scamming and account hacking will be avoided. Every item a player buys legit from another legit player, is an item less for the botters and scammers.

     

    Now labeling the D3 Auction House as gambling, especially by gamers here on the forums who should know to some extent what they are talking about, is a travesty of the truth. The only reason I can think of why someone would slander D3 and the RMT AH like that is because they have a hidden agenda to try to remove the RMT from the AH at all costs, grasping at any straw they can find.

    Clearly they way it works in practice is that you "work" for your loot, and after a hard days "work" you can sell the stuff on the AH for RL cash.

    The argument that you pay for the box is rediculous, but if that is the only real argument, then make the game free to play. At that time it is nothing more than a second job, like hunting deer and hoping to find a fine specimen of antlers.

     

    If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
    http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
    Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online

  • FossilzFossilz Member Posts: 13

    I dunno why they would do that considering how much they love to farm gold.Wouldn't they just want to farm the items and sell those instead?

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,213

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    Looks like it could be the begining of the end of the RMAH. Stay tuned.....

     

    Source: http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/korea-may-ban-d3-over-real-money-trading

    I commend them and was just the other day i was saying that perhaps our fuiture lies with Asian developers.We are talking not only common sense but morals.Some of these big develoeprs like Blizzard are so entrneched with their fanbase,they feel they can do whatever they want,it is time the players let them know we are not their slaves or sheep to be herd around.

    This would be a HUGE step for gaming if a giant like Blizzard was turned down face first  and told we don't like your ideas.We need SOE to be slapped around a bit as well,we are headed down a VERY bad path that leads to total nonsense when comes to gaming, a casual past time.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    Originally posted by thegypsyking


    Originally posted by RefMinor

    I am surprised the US will allow what is potentially a gambling shop.

    The RMAH has nearly zero similarities with gambling, that's a pitiful comparison.  All we can do is wait to see how Blizzard creates what could be the new MMO standard, or the fatal flaw with D3.

     Oh really, then tell us what it is then because bidding on items on an AH is gambling.

    Lol, okay, so bidding on items is gambling? Gee, then Ebay is the biggest gambling site on the web, strange that no one ever think about that.

     

    If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
    http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
    Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950

    Originally posted by Wizardry

    Originally posted by SaintViktor

    Looks like it could be the begining of the end of the RMAH. Stay tuned.....

     

    Source: http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/korea-may-ban-d3-over-real-money-trading

    I commend them and was just the other day i was saying that perhaps our fuiture lies with Asian developers.We are talking not only common sense but morals.Some of these big develoeprs like Blizzard are so entrneched with their fanbase,they feel they can do whatever they want,it is time the players let them know we are not their slaves or sheep to be herd around.

    This would be a HUGE step for gaming if a giant like Blizzard was turned down face first  and told we don't like your ideas.We need SOE to be slapped around a bit as well,we are headed down a VERY bad path that leads to total nonsense when comes to gaming, a casual past time.

    So our future lies with Asian devs who basically invented microtransactions and RMT? Great.

    Between microtransactions and player run RMT I will choose the latter every time.

     

    If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
    http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
    Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online

  • rothbardrothbard Member Posts: 248

    Totally ridiculous.  "ZOMG RMT!!! I DON'T LIKE IT! USE VIOLENCE TO FORCE THEM NOT TO HAVE IT!"  

    As long as there is player exchange of items in a game there will be RMT.  Get over it.  If RMT is bad, then paying to play the game is bad, as it's the ultimate form of RMT.

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950

    Originally posted by Ceridith

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by kitarad

    Houses get put on the auction blocks too and unlike poker there is an actual virtual item here that you spent time getting. It is not based on chance. They will probably tax it.









    People keep bringing this up. Nobody is transferring ownership of anything. Players are not actually buying virtual items. In theory, the government might attempt to assess a sales tax for services, but these are private sales between individuals, over the internet, probably across regional lines. No sales taxes will be taken.



    However, in the United States, if you earn money, you may need to submit a personal income tax form, even if you are underage. If you earn more than $600 a year, and you have other income (from a job) where you would be paying income tax, you'll need to put that money earned on your income tax forms. That's where the government is going to collect money.



    ** edit **

    Also, the South Korean government banned another game type thing that wasn't a gambling machine. They banned it because people acted like it was a gambling thing. All that's needed is for the people who would be playing to treat the RMAH like a way to gamble or as if they were gambling, and the South Korean government will ban it.

     

    When push comes to shove, it's the government instated law that determines what ownership of virtual goods for players, not an EULA. Many nations are in the process of writing new legislation pertaining to virtual ownership of goods and taxation there of. Governments could very well give ownership and property rigths to players, but the catch is that they will be subject to taxes. And with good reason, it's a quickly growing industry that has so far largely escaped taxation.

    That's the fire that Blizzard is playing with by legitimizing RMT in Diablo 3. When it was against the EULA to pariticpate in any form of RMT, the strong case could be made agaisnt ownership of virtual property by players. When the opposite occurs, and sale of virtual goods for real money between parties occurs but is avidly promoted by Blizzard, it implies a level of ownership on behalf of the seller -- you can't legally sell something you do not own.

    Time will tell how it unfolds, but I can't help but feel that Blizzard is shooting themselves in the foot, not to mention the rest of the industry, for their RMAH money grab.

    Well Blizzard may be shooting themselves in the foot with this in regards to legislation, but I for one applaud them for this bold move.

    I hate microtransactions a lot more than I hate player run RMT. With player run RMT at least someone is still playing the game.

     

     

    If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
    http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
    Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950

    Originally posted by just2duh

     LOL that's rich, considering mostly all illegal gold/item selling that plague our MMO's come from Korea/China.

    This :p

    At least with Blizzard it is out in the open, and they could tax it if they want.

     

    If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
    http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
    Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online

  • ArChWindArChWind Member UncommonPosts: 1,313

    Humm..


     


    Seems to me this is a borderline shade of grey in many aspects.


     


    For one who actually owns the property? Blizzard or the player? If the player has owernship then player can sell the item outside the AH such as on eBay.


     


    Very interesting how they will word this EULA.

  • rothbardrothbard Member Posts: 248

    Originally posted by Wizardry

    Some of these big develoeprs like Blizzard are so entrneched with their fanbase,they feel they can do whatever they want,it is time the players let them know we are not their slaves or sheep to be herd around.

    LMFAO.  Slaves??  Really?  Pro tip:  If you don't like the game or it's features...don't play it.

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950

    Originally posted by sldrop

    Originally posted by Lanfea

    if you are really interested in this subject and open to some very good arguments, take your time and read this:

    http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/09/diablo-3-and-illegal-online-gambling.html

     

    and i like to add that there is another legal problem with the RMAH within D3 if we compare it with an internet portal like eBay. you have to be 18, at least in many european countries, to sell on eBay. so it might happen that blizzard is forced by law to ensure that every user of the RMAH is over 18. not really a problem on the first look, but do you know the administrative work behind confirming the age and what permissions and security measures you need as a company to get a hand on this data and this for every damn country?

     

    to be honest it would be a huge failure if blizzards law department didn't thought about this before they implemented the RMAH into their game.

    nice read

    http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/08/rmah-is-gambling-indeed.html

    By changing loot tables and random chance algorithms, Blizzard can alter volume. Volume or rarity = more listings = gambling by the players (but this is not a gamble for the house) = more listing fee revenue (the house always wins)



    Selling an item is a game of chance, there's high risk involved, there's monetary loss involved due to random chance, and it's gambling. If the Auction House is changed so that there is only a cut after a successful auction, then it is not gambling. On a related note, EBay charges fees  however the fee is refunded if your item does not sell.

    The article was indeed interesting, although I don't agree with the author's conclusion that in moral terms RMT between players using an auction house = gambling.

    However he did make a point that charging a listing fee regardless of selling the item or not, resembles gambling, so on that point I stand corrected, and Blizzard should take that measure out.

     

    If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
    http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
    Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online

  • CyberWizCyberWiz Member UncommonPosts: 950

    All tha being said, it would be a real shame if the RMT AH gets canned and a microtransaction scheme would replace it ...

     

    If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
    http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
    Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online

  • rothbardrothbard Member Posts: 248

    If AH is gambling, then every single action in life is gambling.  Uncertainty is always present.

  • sldropsldrop Member Posts: 112

    Originally posted by rothbard

    If AH is gambling, then every single action in life is gambling.  Uncertainty is always present.

    take a look at http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/08/rmah-is-gambling-indeed.html

    The itmes are all random drop and all items are control by bliz(drop rate, rarity and creation).

    its different from other AH

  • rothbardrothbard Member Posts: 248

    Originally posted by sldrop

    Originally posted by rothbard

    If AH is gambling, then every single action in life is gambling.  Uncertainty is always present.

    take a look at http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/08/rmah-is-gambling-indeed.html

    The itmes are all random drop and all items are control by bliz(drop rate, rarity and creation).

    its different from other AH

    How are drop rates part of the AH?  Sure they affect the supply of an item but so?  I thought the whole "pay to list" was what supposedly made it gambling?

  • sldropsldrop Member Posts: 112

    Originally posted by rothbard

    Originally posted by sldrop


    Originally posted by rothbard

    If AH is gambling, then every single action in life is gambling.  Uncertainty is always present.

    take a look at http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/08/rmah-is-gambling-indeed.html

    The itmes are all random drop and all items are control by bliz(drop rate, rarity and creation).

    its different from other AH

    How are drop rates part of the AH?  Sure they affect the supply of an item but so?  I thought the whole "pay to list" was what supposedly made it gambling?

     Blizzard can alter volume. Volume or rarity = more listings = gambling by the players 

  • maxy1214maxy1214 Member UncommonPosts: 44

    It is blizzards move to take control of their products that they try to compete with the asian RMT websites.

    They may exclude the RMAH for microtransactions but those asian gold sellers wont go away. So who wins?

Sign In or Register to comment.