A good implementation of permadeath could be cool. There be a few games with permadeath, some offer you to breed childs and if you die its still your blood with the powers of a noob but old blood can give you genetically advantages so you can become even more powerfull in the end.
To me EvE is business in Space, i want more adventure, i dont mean fighting about a starsystem to get its ressources all the time, or making money, there must be some lore and some developermade overarching story to catch me to a world/universe. I hope WoD will offer a more adventurous approach than EvE does.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
I'm suprised that no one is crying foul at the permadeath. When Salem was announced it seemed that most people immediately made up their minds that it was going to be the worst game ever, simply because it featured permadeath.
The mmo fans will.
But I think the white-wolf hardcore will get the love they want.
I'm sure they'll make a lollipop / candy ass server for the play nice crowd. I'm pretty sure a non-combat lounge will make it in as well. So the IMVU type of role-player will have their say.
I myself am intrigued.
I'd just about bet even tho' the characters can perma-die, certain experience gained will go to the "player".
You can be as snide as you want, but perma-death tends to breakdown when you have "players" in the population who are more interested in seeing you die and losing everything you've put into a character, than they are in their own self-preservation. When the goal is to grief, perma-death is meaningless to them -- even if it's a big f***ing deal to you. I'd like to see if this can actually be solved in WoD, but I'm skeptical. VTM players are used to people whose motives, at the very least, revolve around their own survival. Throw in a few suicide bombers and see how long patience for PD lasts.
It looks like they are really trying to craft a very unique experience with this and I hope that they manage to pull it off. But my faith in my fellow player is pretty much zero and relying on them to play the game the way it was meant to be played is a fools errand. If they can find some way (that actually works) to address the griefer scum, I'll be the first to stand and applaud.
But my faith in my fellow player is pretty much zero and relying on them to play the game the way it was meant to be played is a fools errand. If they can find some way (that actually works) to address the griefer scum, I'll be the first to stand and applaud.
^This
Even Star Trek Online had greifer problems with self-destruct gangs. STO!
Suicide gankers is always a threat.
Permadeath + server instability = rage.
Just SO many problems... so many exploits and "clever" work arounds etc.
Unless CCP creates the "perfect" system then all they are doing is wasting their time.
Driving away all of their EvE fans, driving their money towards a FPS no one will play, and driving away any chance of their new game attracting significant attention... CCP is pretty f*cking stupid these days.
I'm suprised that no one is crying foul at the permadeath. When Salem was announced it seemed that most people immediately made up their minds that it was going to be the worst game ever, simply because it featured permadeath.
The mmo fans will.
But I think the white-wolf hardcore will get the love they want.
I'm sure they'll make a lollipop / candy ass server for the play nice crowd. I'm pretty sure a non-combat lounge will make it in as well. So the IMVU type of role-player will have their say.
I myself am intrigued.
I'd just about bet even tho' the characters can perma-die, certain experience gained will go to the "player".
You can be as snide as you want, but perma-death tends to breakdown when you have "players" in the population who are more interested in seeing you die and losing everything you've put into a character, than they are in their own self-preservation. When the goal is to grief, perma-death is meaningless to them -- even if it's a big f***ing deal to you. I'd like to see if this can actually be solved in WoD, but I'm skeptical. VTM players are used to people whose motives, at the very least, revolve around their own survival. Throw in a few suicide bombers and see how long patience for PD lasts.
It looks like they are really trying to craft a very unique experience with this and I hope that they manage to pull it off. But my faith in my fellow player is pretty much zero and relying on them to play the game the way it was meant to be played is a fools errand. If they can find some way (that actually works) to address the griefer scum, I'll be the first to stand and applaud.
For now, I remain cautiously pessimistic.
I've never seen a game fold because of permadeath. I've seen a lot of people make paper thin speculation like you have about it.
I've seen EVE survive where other games haven't. I've seen Diablo II enjoy a solid decade of game play; partly praised for the hardcore server rules.
A World of Darkness game will have a population that they'll try to cater too before the average whiner MMOer happens along. It's a profitable market to cater to and will have their expectations that I think White-Wolf is in the position to cater to before the whole 'gimmie gimmie easy easy' EQ/WoW crowd will matter.
CCP often sticks to their guns with these notions as well.
Just having permadeath doesn't have to be pulled off or have to work in any magical way other than how it's simply stated.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
I'm suprised that no one is crying foul at the permadeath. When Salem was announced it seemed that most people immediately made up their minds that it was going to be the worst game ever, simply because it featured permadeath.
The mmo fans will.
But I think the white-wolf hardcore will get the love they want.
I'm sure they'll make a lollipop / candy ass server for the play nice crowd. I'm pretty sure a non-combat lounge will make it in as well. So the IMVU type of role-player will have their say.
I myself am intrigued.
I'd just about bet even tho' the characters can perma-die, certain experience gained will go to the "player".
You can be as snide as you want, but perma-death tends to breakdown when you have "players" in the population who are more interested in seeing you die and losing everything you've put into a character, than they are in their own self-preservation. When the goal is to grief, perma-death is meaningless to them -- even if it's a big f***ing deal to you. I'd like to see if this can actually be solved in WoD, but I'm skeptical. VTM players are used to people whose motives, at the very least, revolve around their own survival. Throw in a few suicide bombers and see how long patience for PD lasts.
It looks like they are really trying to craft a very unique experience with this and I hope that they manage to pull it off. But my faith in my fellow player is pretty much zero and relying on them to play the game the way it was meant to be played is a fools errand. If they can find some way (that actually works) to address the griefer scum, I'll be the first to stand and applaud.
For now, I remain cautiously pessimistic.
I've never seen a game fold because of permadeath. I've seen a lot of people make paper thin speculation like you have about it.
I've seen EVE survive where other games haven't. I've seen Diablo II enjoy a solid decade of game play; partly praised for the hardcore server rules.
A World of Darkness game will have a population that they'll try to cater too before the average whiner MMOer happens along. It's a profitable market to cater to and will have their expectations that I think White-Wolf is in the position to cater to before the whole 'gimmie gimmie easy easy' EQ/WoW crowd will matter.
CCP often sticks to their guns with these notions as well.
Just having permadeath doesn't have to be pulled off or have to work in any magical way other than how it's simply stated.
Comparing this to EVE is laughable. WoD looks to be RP intensive. EVE is practically RP non-existent. See how much patience hardcore roleplayers have for being ganked and losing months of character development for no reason that is even remotely justified by the storyline they are playing. Only to feed the spiteful appetite of some lowlife whose sole rationale is to enjoy the misery they can cause.
Only a fool would think that a spreadsheet jocky losing a nice ship would react with the same level of detachment as a dedicated RPer losing a character they'd invested heavily in. But tell yourself whatever you want. I'll wait to see just what CCP has in mind for WoD.
Originally posted by Unlight Originally posted by PukeBucket
Originally posted by Unlight
Originally posted by PukeBucket
Originally posted by Unreal024
I'm suprised that no one is crying foul at the permadeath. When Salem was announced it seemed that most people immediately made up their minds that it was going to be the worst game ever, simply because it featured permadeath.
The mmo fans will. But I think the white-wolf hardcore will get the love they want. I'm sure they'll make a lollipop / candy ass server for the play nice crowd. I'm pretty sure a non-combat lounge will make it in as well. So the IMVU type of role-player will have their say. I myself am intrigued. I'd just about bet even tho' the characters can perma-die, certain experience gained will go to the "player". You can be as snide as you want, but perma-death tends to breakdown when you have "players" in the population who are more interested in seeing you die and losing everything you've put into a character, than they are in their own self-preservation. When the goal is to grief, perma-death is meaningless to them -- even if it's a big f***ing deal to you. I'd like to see if this can actually be solved in WoD, but I'm skeptical. VTM players are used to people whose motives, at the very least, revolve around their own survival. Throw in a few suicide bombers and see how long patience for PD lasts. It looks like they are really trying to craft a very unique experience with this and I hope that they manage to pull it off. But my faith in my fellow player is pretty much zero and relying on them to play the game the way it was meant to be played is a fools errand. If they can find some way (that actually works) to address the griefer scum, I'll be the first to stand and applaud. For now, I remain cautiously pessimistic. I've never seen a game fold because of permadeath. I've seen a lot of people make paper thin speculation like you have about it. I've seen EVE survive where other games haven't. I've seen Diablo II enjoy a solid decade of game play; partly praised for the hardcore server rules. A World of Darkness game will have a population that they'll try to cater too before the average whiner MMOer happens along. It's a profitable market to cater to and will have their expectations that I think White-Wolf is in the position to cater to before the whole 'gimmie gimmie easy easy' EQ/WoW crowd will matter. CCP often sticks to their guns with these notions as well. Just having permadeath doesn't have to be pulled off or have to work in any magical way other than how it's simply stated. Comparing this to EVE is laughable. WoD looks to be RP intensive. EVE is practically RP non-existent. See how much patience hardcore roleplayers have for being ganked and losing months of character development for no reason that is even remotely justified by the storyline they are playing. Only to feed the spiteful appetite of some lowlife whose sole rationale is to enjoy the misery they can cause. Only a fool would think that a spreadsheet jocky losing a nice ship would react with the same level of detachment as a dedicated RPer losing a character they'd invested heavily in. But tell yourself whatever you want. I'll wait to see just what CCP has in mind for WoD.
It depends on how it's implemented. Can you be perma-death killed by a random ganker? What if you just fall into the slumber, whatever it is called? Then through some action or inaction of your own, you get the perma-death.
In Salem, you will have the ability to inherit stuff from character to character. There could be something similar in WoD making it beneficial to kill off one character in favor of another.
There's just no telling with the information we have available. It is a sure thing that there will be people who will look at all the game mechanics and constantly look for ways to grief people. You could also say that CCP has more experience with creative griefing from their player base than any other company.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm suprised that no one is crying foul at the permadeath. When Salem was announced it seemed that most people immediately made up their minds that it was going to be the worst game ever, simply because it featured permadeath.
The mmo fans will.
But I think the white-wolf hardcore will get the love they want.
I'm sure they'll make a lollipop / candy ass server for the play nice crowd. I'm pretty sure a non-combat lounge will make it in as well. So the IMVU type of role-player will have their say.
I myself am intrigued.
I'd just about bet even tho' the characters can perma-die, certain experience gained will go to the "player".
You can be as snide as you want, but perma-death tends to breakdown when you have "players" in the population who are more interested in seeing you die and losing everything you've put into a character, than they are in their own self-preservation. When the goal is to grief, perma-death is meaningless to them -- even if it's a big f***ing deal to you. I'd like to see if this can actually be solved in WoD, but I'm skeptical. VTM players are used to people whose motives, at the very least, revolve around their own survival. Throw in a few suicide bombers and see how long patience for PD lasts.
It looks like they are really trying to craft a very unique experience with this and I hope that they manage to pull it off. But my faith in my fellow player is pretty much zero and relying on them to play the game the way it was meant to be played is a fools errand. If they can find some way (that actually works) to address the griefer scum, I'll be the first to stand and applaud.
For now, I remain cautiously pessimistic.
I've never seen a game fold because of permadeath. I've seen a lot of people make paper thin speculation like you have about it.
I've seen EVE survive where other games haven't. I've seen Diablo II enjoy a solid decade of game play; partly praised for the hardcore server rules.
A World of Darkness game will have a population that they'll try to cater too before the average whiner MMOer happens along. It's a profitable market to cater to and will have their expectations that I think White-Wolf is in the position to cater to before the whole 'gimmie gimmie easy easy' EQ/WoW crowd will matter.
CCP often sticks to their guns with these notions as well.
Just having permadeath doesn't have to be pulled off or have to work in any magical way other than how it's simply stated.
Though he does have a point.
Personally, I like the permadeath idea in this context. However, when you have players who get their jollies at essentially taking out other players "just because" that does skew the who purpose of perma death.
getting a gang of players together with the sole purpose of taking players "out" is going to get old fast for players who can accept the idea of perma death in a role play fashino but who might have a harder time accepting it as a cut throat pvp tool.
They are, for the most part, different demographics.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I'm suprised that no one is crying foul at the permadeath. When Salem was announced it seemed that most people immediately made up their minds that it was going to be the worst game ever, simply because it featured permadeath.
The mmo fans will.
But I think the white-wolf hardcore will get the love they want.
I'm sure they'll make a lollipop / candy ass server for the play nice crowd. I'm pretty sure a non-combat lounge will make it in as well. So the IMVU type of role-player will have their say.
I myself am intrigued.
I'd just about bet even tho' the characters can perma-die, certain experience gained will go to the "player".
You can be as snide as you want, but perma-death tends to breakdown when you have "players" in the population who are more interested in seeing you die and losing everything you've put into a character, than they are in their own self-preservation. When the goal is to grief, perma-death is meaningless to them -- even if it's a big f***ing deal to you. I'd like to see if this can actually be solved in WoD, but I'm skeptical. VTM players are used to people whose motives, at the very least, revolve around their own survival. Throw in a few suicide bombers and see how long patience for PD lasts.
It looks like they are really trying to craft a very unique experience with this and I hope that they manage to pull it off. But my faith in my fellow player is pretty much zero and relying on them to play the game the way it was meant to be played is a fools errand. If they can find some way (that actually works) to address the griefer scum, I'll be the first to stand and applaud.
For now, I remain cautiously pessimistic.
I've never seen a game fold because of permadeath. I've seen a lot of people make paper thin speculation like you have about it.
I've seen EVE survive where other games haven't. I've seen Diablo II enjoy a solid decade of game play; partly praised for the hardcore server rules.
A World of Darkness game will have a population that they'll try to cater too before the average whiner MMOer happens along. It's a profitable market to cater to and will have their expectations that I think White-Wolf is in the position to cater to before the whole 'gimmie gimmie easy easy' EQ/WoW crowd will matter.
CCP often sticks to their guns with these notions as well.
Just having permadeath doesn't have to be pulled off or have to work in any magical way other than how it's simply stated.
Though he does have a point.
Personally, I like the permadeath idea in this context. However, when you have players who get their jollies at essentially taking out other players "just because" that does skew the who purpose of perma death.
getting a gang of players together with the sole purpose of taking players "out" is going to get old fast for players who can accept the idea of perma death in a role play fashino but who might have a harder time accepting it as a cut throat pvp tool.
They are, for the most part, different demographics.
/facepalm
He doesn't have a point. He has no clue what tupor or how permadeath played out in the WoD games.
If they're sticking to their character sheets and as much of their RP devices that they can; the issue is solved already.
A player would have to put himself into that bit of danger to "permadie..." (it should just be die, but for the sake of retards) and more than likely it'd be a rage moment like in the table top games.
So a gang of Gangrel kill you. You don't stay down, you get back up and try to attack someone. You die again. Well again you don't wait and have agg damage and you try again; you deserve to lose your toon.
It's called world of darkness. Not Carebear's Happy Hug Land.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
I cant see perma death working if the game is setup like a standard mmorpg, i mean loosing everything you have worked months for is not gonna make people happy..
But as people have said its probally not going to be like that..
Will just have to wait and see I guess, but its still many years off
Permanent loss has it's place in the MMO-culture right now. Many of us really enjoyed that aspect of EveO and hope that more games will find a way to continue that tradition.
Permanent death is a bit much, I'll admit and I agree that it will be a huge turn-off to the vast majority. If they were to have a single server with that ruleset on it, I could see it happening.
However, my concerns are many. Perma death, coming from pvp, is kind of a non starter for me unless they protect us from powerful griefers. Getting schooled by a griefer happens to everyone. If perma death as a vampire is readily and easily achieved by a griefer, I am so not playing. If its rare, or hard to come by in pvp, its all good.
Second, player rulers/princes, primogens etc. Again, on paper, cool. But then it ends up being some ridiculously huge Goon like player guild (whatever they will be called, chapter?) it just goes to the guy/gal with the most, randomly recruited goons behind him. If they can do away with the zerg like qualities typical in MMOs with perhaps a limit to guild size, so its how well you play, not how many people you have, that could be cool. Skill is one thing, dominance through numbers seems to be the routine all too often, so skill becomes irrelevant for the player outside the zerg.
Second, player rulers/princes, primogens etc. Again, on paper, cool. But then it ends up being some ridiculously huge Goon like player guild (whatever they will be called, chapter?) it just goes to the guy/gal with the most, randomly recruited goons behind him. If they can do away with the zerg like qualities typical in MMOs with perhaps a limit to guild size, so its how well you play, not how many people you have, that could be cool. Skill is one thing, dominance through numbers seems to be the routine all too often, so skill becomes irrelevant for the player outside the zerg.
Restricting guild or brood sizes would end up being a hassle to the players with no benefit to anyone. Large alliances in EVE get spanked all the time by groups of small corps/alliances banding together for a common cause. I expect to see the exact same thing happening with the Prince/Primogen system.
Whoever gets elected will most likely have very little time to show off their combat skills because they will spend all their time playing the political metagame. I’m sure there will be plenty of room for the little guy/gal to show off his/her skills outside the zerg, but I would also expect a lot of wheeling and dealing between alliances with or without an arbitrary guild size restriction.
Restricting guild or brood sizes would end up being a hassle to the players with no benefit to anyone. Large alliances in EVE get spanked all the time by groups of small corps/alliances banding together for a common cause. I expect to see the exact same thing happening with the Prince/Primogen system.
Whoever gets elected will most likely have very little time to show off their combat skills because they will spend all their time playing the political metagame. I’m sure there will be plenty of room for the little guy/gal to show off his/her skills outside the zerg, but I would also expect a lot of wheeling and dealing between alliances with or without an arbitrary guild size restriction.
Fair points to be sure. I suppose at this point, any serious debate on one side or the other is probably moot at any rate, given the pre-pre-alpha concept development phase the game is in right now.
My concerns aside, I am going to keep an eye on this. It, more than any other game out there, has the potential to bring change to the MMORPG scene. We are not going to find any substantial, revolutionary change in the upcoming titles. Even GW2, while cool and innovative on some fronts, does not bring that much to the table with regards to true innovation.
I'm suprised that no one is crying foul at the permadeath. When Salem was announced it seemed that most people immediately made up their minds that it was going to be the worst game ever, simply because it featured permadeath.
The mmo fans will.
But I think the white-wolf hardcore will get the love they want.
I'm sure they'll make a lollipop / candy ass server for the play nice crowd. I'm pretty sure a non-combat lounge will make it in as well. So the IMVU type of role-player will have their say.
I myself am intrigued.
I'd just about bet even tho' the characters can perma-die, certain experience gained will go to the "player".
You can be as snide as you want, but perma-death tends to breakdown when you have "players" in the population who are more interested in seeing you die and losing everything you've put into a character, than they are in their own self-preservation. When the goal is to grief, perma-death is meaningless to them -- even if it's a big f***ing deal to you. I'd like to see if this can actually be solved in WoD, but I'm skeptical. VTM players are used to people whose motives, at the very least, revolve around their own survival. Throw in a few suicide bombers and see how long patience for PD lasts.
It looks like they are really trying to craft a very unique experience with this and I hope that they manage to pull it off. But my faith in my fellow player is pretty much zero and relying on them to play the game the way it was meant to be played is a fools errand. If they can find some way (that actually works) to address the griefer scum, I'll be the first to stand and applaud.
For now, I remain cautiously pessimistic.
I've never seen a game fold because of permadeath. I've seen a lot of people make paper thin speculation like you have about it.
I've seen EVE survive where other games haven't. I've seen Diablo II enjoy a solid decade of game play; partly praised for the hardcore server rules.
A World of Darkness game will have a population that they'll try to cater too before the average whiner MMOer happens along. It's a profitable market to cater to and will have their expectations that I think White-Wolf is in the position to cater to before the whole 'gimmie gimmie easy easy' EQ/WoW crowd will matter.
CCP often sticks to their guns with these notions as well.
Just having permadeath doesn't have to be pulled off or have to work in any magical way other than how it's simply stated.
Though he does have a point.
Personally, I like the permadeath idea in this context. However, when you have players who get their jollies at essentially taking out other players "just because" that does skew the who purpose of perma death.
getting a gang of players together with the sole purpose of taking players "out" is going to get old fast for players who can accept the idea of perma death in a role play fashino but who might have a harder time accepting it as a cut throat pvp tool.
They are, for the most part, different demographics.
/facepalm
He doesn't have a point. He has no clue what tupor or how permadeath played out in the WoD games.
If they're sticking to their character sheets and as much of their RP devices that they can; the issue is solved already.
A player would have to put himself into that bit of danger to "permadie..." (it should just be die, but for the sake of retards) and more than likely it'd be a rage moment like in the table top games.
So a gang of Gangrel kill you. You don't stay down, you get back up and try to attack someone. You die again. Well again you don't wait and have agg damage and you try again; you deserve to lose your toon.
It's called world of darkness. Not Carebear's Happy Hug Land.
ok, first of all "settle down francis", no need to get all intense.
I'm not saying that they should change anything. so take your chill pill. However, if I'm reading you correctly one has to put themselves in a specific area to perma-die? If that's not correct then the point still stands unless one is killed and then can make a decision to "not perma die".
so you are sahing that a gang of Ganrel kills you and you can stay down and not endure permadeath? And I'm not clear on "you dont' wait and have agg damage".
remember, not everyone has played world of darkness so they are most likely attracted to the idea of a world of vampires and werewolves. They are probably still wrapping their minds around a different type of ruleset.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
From what I remember from the V:tm, you couldn't willy nilly go execute people. Oh sure, you maybe physically capable and/or have a large enough group to kill just about anyone. However, people who did that usually ended up having a big red bullseye painted on their backs.
At that point the prince declares open season on said murderer. Now everyone whos a lower gen (level) than you is looking at you like you're a capri sun juice pak. Also, those higher gen (level) than you are looking at your resources that they are now free to take, minions that maybe valuable, or political favor they can curry by executing your ass.
The "civilized" vampire society frowned on overt displays of violence. If you get snuffed in some forgotten sewer system or abandoned building and there are no witnesses.....fair game. Someone sees it or worse....some mortal sees it.....may the gods have mercy on your soul. The whole concept behind Vampire is the illusion that we don't exist. Sure bad things happen, muggings, murders, rape.....but even any indication that vampires exist is strictly verboten! That means not showing any powers, fangs, drinking blood, or anything even hinting at the word 'Vampire'.
A vampire who threatens the masquerade is treated as cop kiling pedophile who is also a terrorist who threatened the president. That is to say everyone is out to get them and no questions are asked about how they get taken down....as long as it doesn't duplicate his crimes.
I'm suprised that no one is crying foul at the permadeath. When Salem was announced it seemed that most people immediately made up their minds that it was going to be the worst game ever, simply because it featured permadeath.
The mmo fans will.
But I think the white-wolf hardcore will get the love they want.
I'm sure they'll make a lollipop / candy ass server for the play nice crowd. I'm pretty sure a non-combat lounge will make it in as well. So the IMVU type of role-player will have their say.
I myself am intrigued.
I'd just about bet even tho' the characters can perma-die, certain experience gained will go to the "player".
You can be as snide as you want, but perma-death tends to breakdown when you have "players" in the population who are more interested in seeing you die and losing everything you've put into a character, than they are in their own self-preservation. When the goal is to grief, perma-death is meaningless to them -- even if it's a big f***ing deal to you. I'd like to see if this can actually be solved in WoD, but I'm skeptical. VTM players are used to people whose motives, at the very least, revolve around their own survival. Throw in a few suicide bombers and see how long patience for PD lasts.
It looks like they are really trying to craft a very unique experience with this and I hope that they manage to pull it off. But my faith in my fellow player is pretty much zero and relying on them to play the game the way it was meant to be played is a fools errand. If they can find some way (that actually works) to address the griefer scum, I'll be the first to stand and applaud.
For now, I remain cautiously pessimistic.
I've never seen a game fold because of permadeath. I've seen a lot of people make paper thin speculation like you have about it.
I've seen EVE survive where other games haven't. I've seen Diablo II enjoy a solid decade of game play; partly praised for the hardcore server rules.
A World of Darkness game will have a population that they'll try to cater too before the average whiner MMOer happens along. It's a profitable market to cater to and will have their expectations that I think White-Wolf is in the position to cater to before the whole 'gimmie gimmie easy easy' EQ/WoW crowd will matter.
CCP often sticks to their guns with these notions as well.
Just having permadeath doesn't have to be pulled off or have to work in any magical way other than how it's simply stated.
Though he does have a point.
Personally, I like the permadeath idea in this context. However, when you have players who get their jollies at essentially taking out other players "just because" that does skew the who purpose of perma death.
getting a gang of players together with the sole purpose of taking players "out" is going to get old fast for players who can accept the idea of perma death in a role play fashino but who might have a harder time accepting it as a cut throat pvp tool.
They are, for the most part, different demographics.
/facepalm
He doesn't have a point. He has no clue what tupor or how permadeath played out in the WoD games.
If they're sticking to their character sheets and as much of their RP devices that they can; the issue is solved already.
A player would have to put himself into that bit of danger to "permadie..." (it should just be die, but for the sake of retards) and more than likely it'd be a rage moment like in the table top games.
So a gang of Gangrel kill you. You don't stay down, you get back up and try to attack someone. You die again. Well again you don't wait and have agg damage and you try again; you deserve to lose your toon.
It's called world of darkness. Not Carebear's Happy Hug Land.
ok, first of all "settle down francis", no need to get all intense.
I'm not saying that they should change anything. so take your chill pill. However, if I'm reading you correctly one has to put themselves in a specific area to perma-die? If that's not correct then the point still stands unless one is killed and then can make a decision to "not perma die".
so you are sahing that a gang of Ganrel kills you and you can stay down and not endure permadeath? And I'm not clear on "you dont' wait and have agg damage".
remember, not everyone has played world of darkness so they are most likely attracted to the idea of a world of vampires and werewolves. They are probably still wrapping their minds around a different type of ruleset.
Let's take it slow and simple then.
From what information is offered, not very much, and what information can be drawn from the source material we have a pretty solid base to make assumptions (the following is full of them) from. This all depends on CCP and White Wolf and which crowd they'll cater to.
In the pen & paper games you have various states of defeat. You reach the first "incapacitation" it probably can be seen as being on par with any other game. Video or otherwise, where numbers are sort of concerned. In WoD you have these health boxes and a number of dots. Then you use slashes, x's, and stars to show how extreme that damage was.
The game keeps moving generally so just taking the fall and being defeate leaves you room to recover eventually.
I could see this in a MMO easily. The biggest bad probably can put you into the first state of defeat rather quickly and players can let it go there. Then respawn or end up in a safe area with whatever excuse is suitable for them.
You can push it in the game. Some people do in the table top setting and you eventually have to have all stars in your health box to be declared done by the game master. That's just been the general way WoD represents it.
Most of the super natural creatures, being undead and what have you alreaady, actually have an extra state from that. With options for the group to procure a revival.
I hope CCP doesn't pull this back so much and I really think it'd work.
"I'm in a group, I'm mostly a support dpser. I get downed by being an idiot. Well the group seems to have recovered I'll chance getting back up and continuing." The more you go to that pool the closer to perma-death you should reasonably become.
OR let's say in a PVP setting you have a heated moment and you bet blood v blood against someone. That fight should end in permadeath and a big boost to the victor.
Or the party wants to play it safe. They're fighting and everyone goes down to the first level. They revive, recoup, and try again.
All choices clearly presented to the players. Risk v reward; and that's how it should be.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
This is completely and utterly unlike any MMO I've ever seen. And it looks like we will be able to live in the world, not just on it. Thats exactly what I want in a game like this. This would be fantastic.
Comments
A good implementation of permadeath could be cool.
There be a few games with permadeath, some offer you to breed childs and if you die its still your blood with the powers of a noob but old blood can give you genetically advantages so you can become even more powerfull in the end.
To me EvE is business in Space, i want more adventure, i dont mean fighting about a starsystem to get its ressources all the time, or making money, there must be some lore and some developermade overarching story to catch me to a world/universe.
I hope WoD will offer a more adventurous approach than EvE does.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
You can be as snide as you want, but perma-death tends to breakdown when you have "players" in the population who are more interested in seeing you die and losing everything you've put into a character, than they are in their own self-preservation. When the goal is to grief, perma-death is meaningless to them -- even if it's a big f***ing deal to you. I'd like to see if this can actually be solved in WoD, but I'm skeptical. VTM players are used to people whose motives, at the very least, revolve around their own survival. Throw in a few suicide bombers and see how long patience for PD lasts.
It looks like they are really trying to craft a very unique experience with this and I hope that they manage to pull it off. But my faith in my fellow player is pretty much zero and relying on them to play the game the way it was meant to be played is a fools errand. If they can find some way (that actually works) to address the griefer scum, I'll be the first to stand and applaud.
For now, I remain cautiously pessimistic.
^This
Even Star Trek Online had greifer problems with self-destruct gangs. STO!
Suicide gankers is always a threat.
Permadeath + server instability = rage.
Just SO many problems... so many exploits and "clever" work arounds etc.
Unless CCP creates the "perfect" system then all they are doing is wasting their time.
Driving away all of their EvE fans, driving their money towards a FPS no one will play, and driving away any chance of their new game attracting significant attention... CCP is pretty f*cking stupid these days.
I've never seen a game fold because of permadeath. I've seen a lot of people make paper thin speculation like you have about it.
I've seen EVE survive where other games haven't. I've seen Diablo II enjoy a solid decade of game play; partly praised for the hardcore server rules.
A World of Darkness game will have a population that they'll try to cater too before the average whiner MMOer happens along. It's a profitable market to cater to and will have their expectations that I think White-Wolf is in the position to cater to before the whole 'gimmie gimmie easy easy' EQ/WoW crowd will matter.
CCP often sticks to their guns with these notions as well.
Just having permadeath doesn't have to be pulled off or have to work in any magical way other than how it's simply stated.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Comparing this to EVE is laughable. WoD looks to be RP intensive. EVE is practically RP non-existent. See how much patience hardcore roleplayers have for being ganked and losing months of character development for no reason that is even remotely justified by the storyline they are playing. Only to feed the spiteful appetite of some lowlife whose sole rationale is to enjoy the misery they can cause.
Only a fool would think that a spreadsheet jocky losing a nice ship would react with the same level of detachment as a dedicated RPer losing a character they'd invested heavily in. But tell yourself whatever you want. I'll wait to see just what CCP has in mind for WoD.
But I think the white-wolf hardcore will get the love they want.
I'm sure they'll make a lollipop / candy ass server for the play nice crowd. I'm pretty sure a non-combat lounge will make it in as well. So the IMVU type of role-player will have their say.
I myself am intrigued.
I'd just about bet even tho' the characters can perma-die, certain experience gained will go to the "player".
You can be as snide as you want, but perma-death tends to breakdown when you have "players" in the population who are more interested in seeing you die and losing everything you've put into a character, than they are in their own self-preservation. When the goal is to grief, perma-death is meaningless to them -- even if it's a big f***ing deal to you. I'd like to see if this can actually be solved in WoD, but I'm skeptical. VTM players are used to people whose motives, at the very least, revolve around their own survival. Throw in a few suicide bombers and see how long patience for PD lasts.
It looks like they are really trying to craft a very unique experience with this and I hope that they manage to pull it off. But my faith in my fellow player is pretty much zero and relying on them to play the game the way it was meant to be played is a fools errand. If they can find some way (that actually works) to address the griefer scum, I'll be the first to stand and applaud.
For now, I remain cautiously pessimistic.
I've never seen a game fold because of permadeath. I've seen a lot of people make paper thin speculation like you have about it.
I've seen EVE survive where other games haven't. I've seen Diablo II enjoy a solid decade of game play; partly praised for the hardcore server rules.
A World of Darkness game will have a population that they'll try to cater too before the average whiner MMOer happens along. It's a profitable market to cater to and will have their expectations that I think White-Wolf is in the position to cater to before the whole 'gimmie gimmie easy easy' EQ/WoW crowd will matter.
CCP often sticks to their guns with these notions as well.
Just having permadeath doesn't have to be pulled off or have to work in any magical way other than how it's simply stated.
Comparing this to EVE is laughable. WoD looks to be RP intensive. EVE is practically RP non-existent. See how much patience hardcore roleplayers have for being ganked and losing months of character development for no reason that is even remotely justified by the storyline they are playing. Only to feed the spiteful appetite of some lowlife whose sole rationale is to enjoy the misery they can cause.
Only a fool would think that a spreadsheet jocky losing a nice ship would react with the same level of detachment as a dedicated RPer losing a character they'd invested heavily in. But tell yourself whatever you want. I'll wait to see just what CCP has in mind for WoD.
It depends on how it's implemented. Can you be perma-death killed by a random ganker? What if you just fall into the slumber, whatever it is called? Then through some action or inaction of your own, you get the perma-death.
In Salem, you will have the ability to inherit stuff from character to character. There could be something similar in WoD making it beneficial to kill off one character in favor of another.
There's just no telling with the information we have available. It is a sure thing that there will be people who will look at all the game mechanics and constantly look for ways to grief people. You could also say that CCP has more experience with creative griefing from their player base than any other company.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Though he does have a point.
Personally, I like the permadeath idea in this context. However, when you have players who get their jollies at essentially taking out other players "just because" that does skew the who purpose of perma death.
getting a gang of players together with the sole purpose of taking players "out" is going to get old fast for players who can accept the idea of perma death in a role play fashino but who might have a harder time accepting it as a cut throat pvp tool.
They are, for the most part, different demographics.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
/facepalm
He doesn't have a point. He has no clue what tupor or how permadeath played out in the WoD games.
If they're sticking to their character sheets and as much of their RP devices that they can; the issue is solved already.
A player would have to put himself into that bit of danger to "permadie..." (it should just be die, but for the sake of retards) and more than likely it'd be a rage moment like in the table top games.
So a gang of Gangrel kill you. You don't stay down, you get back up and try to attack someone. You die again. Well again you don't wait and have agg damage and you try again; you deserve to lose your toon.
It's called world of darkness. Not Carebear's Happy Hug Land.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
So far, this game is looking to be exactly like what I want it to be. Wonderful.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
What I really want to know is....
If everyone starts off as mortals, how are those who want to roleplay as an earlier generation kindred supposed to justify it?
They'll just conveniently ignore the fact that yesterday, they were mortals.
Plus, after a few years, they really will be like an earlier generation of kindred.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Good WoD games didn't allow Mary Sues anway.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Permanent loss has it's place in the MMO-culture right now. Many of us really enjoyed that aspect of EveO and hope that more games will find a way to continue that tradition.
Permanent death is a bit much, I'll admit and I agree that it will be a huge turn-off to the vast majority. If they were to have a single server with that ruleset on it, I could see it happening.
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a Mary Sue?
I'm not talking about playing an all powerful vampire, but it really limits your backstory if you have to be embraced in the here and now.
On paper, (in words) this sounds awesome.
However, my concerns are many. Perma death, coming from pvp, is kind of a non starter for me unless they protect us from powerful griefers. Getting schooled by a griefer happens to everyone. If perma death as a vampire is readily and easily achieved by a griefer, I am so not playing. If its rare, or hard to come by in pvp, its all good.
Second, player rulers/princes, primogens etc. Again, on paper, cool. But then it ends up being some ridiculously huge Goon like player guild (whatever they will be called, chapter?) it just goes to the guy/gal with the most, randomly recruited goons behind him. If they can do away with the zerg like qualities typical in MMOs with perhaps a limit to guild size, so its how well you play, not how many people you have, that could be cool. Skill is one thing, dominance through numbers seems to be the routine all too often, so skill becomes irrelevant for the player outside the zerg.
Restricting guild or brood sizes would end up being a hassle to the players with no benefit to anyone. Large alliances in EVE get spanked all the time by groups of small corps/alliances banding together for a common cause. I expect to see the exact same thing happening with the Prince/Primogen system.
Whoever gets elected will most likely have very little time to show off their combat skills because they will spend all their time playing the political metagame. I’m sure there will be plenty of room for the little guy/gal to show off his/her skills outside the zerg, but I would also expect a lot of wheeling and dealing between alliances with or without an arbitrary guild size restriction.
Fair points to be sure. I suppose at this point, any serious debate on one side or the other is probably moot at any rate, given the pre-pre-alpha concept development phase the game is in right now.
My concerns aside, I am going to keep an eye on this. It, more than any other game out there, has the potential to bring change to the MMORPG scene. We are not going to find any substantial, revolutionary change in the upcoming titles. Even GW2, while cool and innovative on some fronts, does not bring that much to the table with regards to true innovation.
Hopefully WoD will not be vaporware.
Ugh. I want a time machine. TAKE ME TO RELEASE DAY!
ok, first of all "settle down francis", no need to get all intense.
I'm not saying that they should change anything. so take your chill pill. However, if I'm reading you correctly one has to put themselves in a specific area to perma-die? If that's not correct then the point still stands unless one is killed and then can make a decision to "not perma die".
so you are sahing that a gang of Ganrel kills you and you can stay down and not endure permadeath? And I'm not clear on "you dont' wait and have agg damage".
remember, not everyone has played world of darkness so they are most likely attracted to the idea of a world of vampires and werewolves. They are probably still wrapping their minds around a different type of ruleset.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
From what I remember from the V:tm, you couldn't willy nilly go execute people. Oh sure, you maybe physically capable and/or have a large enough group to kill just about anyone. However, people who did that usually ended up having a big red bullseye painted on their backs.
At that point the prince declares open season on said murderer. Now everyone whos a lower gen (level) than you is looking at you like you're a capri sun juice pak. Also, those higher gen (level) than you are looking at your resources that they are now free to take, minions that maybe valuable, or political favor they can curry by executing your ass.
The "civilized" vampire society frowned on overt displays of violence. If you get snuffed in some forgotten sewer system or abandoned building and there are no witnesses.....fair game. Someone sees it or worse....some mortal sees it.....may the gods have mercy on your soul. The whole concept behind Vampire is the illusion that we don't exist. Sure bad things happen, muggings, murders, rape.....but even any indication that vampires exist is strictly verboten! That means not showing any powers, fangs, drinking blood, or anything even hinting at the word 'Vampire'.
A vampire who threatens the masquerade is treated as cop kiling pedophile who is also a terrorist who threatened the president. That is to say everyone is out to get them and no questions are asked about how they get taken down....as long as it doesn't duplicate his crimes.
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Yeah. You get out of line and the Prince would just call for a blood hunt on your arse.
I know!Mary Sue = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
O.T Can't w8. May be more excited about this than when I first heard about Tor.
Let's take it slow and simple then.
From what information is offered, not very much, and what information can be drawn from the source material we have a pretty solid base to make assumptions (the following is full of them) from. This all depends on CCP and White Wolf and which crowd they'll cater to.
In the pen & paper games you have various states of defeat. You reach the first "incapacitation" it probably can be seen as being on par with any other game. Video or otherwise, where numbers are sort of concerned. In WoD you have these health boxes and a number of dots. Then you use slashes, x's, and stars to show how extreme that damage was.
The game keeps moving generally so just taking the fall and being defeate leaves you room to recover eventually.
I could see this in a MMO easily. The biggest bad probably can put you into the first state of defeat rather quickly and players can let it go there. Then respawn or end up in a safe area with whatever excuse is suitable for them.
You can push it in the game. Some people do in the table top setting and you eventually have to have all stars in your health box to be declared done by the game master. That's just been the general way WoD represents it.
Most of the super natural creatures, being undead and what have you alreaady, actually have an extra state from that. With options for the group to procure a revival.
I hope CCP doesn't pull this back so much and I really think it'd work.
"I'm in a group, I'm mostly a support dpser. I get downed by being an idiot. Well the group seems to have recovered I'll chance getting back up and continuing." The more you go to that pool the closer to perma-death you should reasonably become.
OR let's say in a PVP setting you have a heated moment and you bet blood v blood against someone. That fight should end in permadeath and a big boost to the victor.
Or the party wants to play it safe. They're fighting and everyone goes down to the first level. They revive, recoup, and try again.
All choices clearly presented to the players. Risk v reward; and that's how it should be.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
This is completely and utterly unlike any MMO I've ever seen. And it looks like we will be able to live in the world, not just on it. Thats exactly what I want in a game like this. This would be fantastic.