Super hard 25 man raids without ridiculously OP rewards? Oh I can see it now....
"I killed the elder dragons and all I got was this lousy t-shirt that just looks better than my other t-shirt"
What does this have to do with GW2?
Sure, there are some tough open world bosses as part of the story but they are hardly 25 man raids.
And the point of playing through the main story is the same reason that you read a book or watch a movie: You want to just hear and be part of a good story. You don't get loot from reading a book, do you?
The point of playing a game is to have fun. If the only thing you think is fun is getting more stuff then I pity you.
I blame christmas, it turned a spiritual thing into something that just is about getting stuff.
To all the millions of future people who will play Guild Wars 2 for a long time, a message from the 0.05% of the gaming population who only plays MMOs for the gear treadmill raid grind instance farming at max level:
Stop enjoying yourselves. Don't you realize there's no raid instances to grind over and over? You can't be having fun, it's impossible. Hey...are you listening? Stop having fun for a second and listen... You should all be playing the same way at max level, not just running around doing whatever you enjoy. Don't you get it, raiders make these games work because we're so important and big and loud. Without me standing around in my ub0r_special_tier_957_sparklegear in the town, how will other players know about all the wasted content they never have any desire to experience?
Hello?
This is exactly what I hear when I listen to raiders whine. They're not doing themselves any favors... lol.
Raiding attracts people who care little about fun, but care a lot about social status ladder climbing.
I dislike those people in real life, but I hate them when they do it in a video game.
The hardcores pretend they value skill and challenge, and not status, but as soon as their gear is available to everyone, or easy-mode raids are implemented, they cry and whine endlessly. This is because they get enjoyment from being "better than" others, and flaunting it in people's faces.
If GW2 never incorporates gear-grind raiding, then I'll be eternally happy. I'd prefer to play a game that does not contain these types of people.
I share your bias against the smug little bastards. And before someone jumps in to defend them.....I'm entitled to think what I think and I'm not changing it because YOUR experience is different from mine. I have my own experiences with the snooty little twits and I judge by my OWN experience. For the most part (meaning most of the raiders annoy me)....a game is a better place without the raiders for me. No raiders and no PvP out and out gankers = A FAR SUPERIOR GAME, in my opinion. Both of those social elements missing makes for a nicer place. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, it's only one opinion.
BTW....I was a raider for a short time too. I couldn't stand myself, so....I quit. No, I'm not joking.
I despise the whole raiding paradigm that became so prevelent with the later versions of EverQuest. I don't know if it's due to the type of content or if it just draws that kind of person, but I have met very few raiders that I would want to associate with, let alone befriend. I'm a fan of TOR, but it pisses me off to no end that they are already giving raiders the best gear and locking up some of the game's story and history into raid only environments. Bioware is falling into the same trap as every other mediocre to god awful MMO out there. I'm counting on you Arena.Net to have the ballsacks to not do the same thing!
what is this "endgame" people talk about ..arnt mmorpgs sopose to be about a never ending story / quest
Who told you that? MMOs are supposed to level cap you, and then send you on frustrating weekly raids where you're not guaranteed to really improve anything about your character, their story, or your own skill, solely for the purpose of maybe getting + 10 pauldrons that make you look totally badass in town. Duh. Endame is about FLASH and instanced content that includes bosses with 30 mil HP, so you better get with it.
This post has been brought to you by Eir_S is a sarcastic bitch who's tired of people whining about endgame.
What do people have against raiding? Where you left out of some raid in your previous game..was it discovered you were in fact a keyboard turner..
The anomosity against End Game Content is amazing.
Just because you may not like raiding it doesnt mean others feel the same way. I for one love end game raiding and believe there will be some type of structured end game raiding in GW2.. In fact.. I know there is currently.. A little birdy told me..
Amazing what people talk about at the hotel bar @ the Crown Plaza..
So all you that are looking to GW2 as a social experiment that has no competitive raiding... hate to disappoint you but if its a deal breaker for you, then I would start looking...
The animosity is towards the developers who can't seem to think beyond easy to program, lazy grind content that only appeals to a small segment of the player base and telling everyone to love it or leave. The animosity is about paying for content that the niche segment likes while the rest of the game suffers from neglect and being made obsolete for the majority of players. It's about almost every single MMO embracing this paradigm because it's the cheap and lazy way to design subpar content with virtually no alternative MMOs who don't buy into this raiding crap for all of those non-raiders who "gasp" are in the majority and foot most of the bill.
Raiding attracts people who care little about fun, but care a lot about social status ladder climbing.
I dislike those people in real life, but I hate them when they do it in a video game.
The hardcores pretend they value skill and challenge, and not status, but as soon as their gear is available to everyone, or easy-mode raids are implemented, they cry and whine endlessly. This is because they get enjoyment from being "better than" others, and flaunting it in people's faces.
If GW2 never incorporates gear-grind raiding, then I'll be eternally happy. I'd prefer to play a game that does not contain these types of people.
I share your bias against the smug little bastards. And before someone jumps in to defend them.....I'm entitled to think what I think and I'm not changing it because YOUR experience is different from mine. I have my own experiences with the snooty little twits and I judge by my OWN experience. For the most part (meaning most of the raiders annoy me)....a game is a better place without the raiders for me. No raiders and no PvP out and out gankers = A FAR SUPERIOR GAME, in my opinion. Both of those social elements missing makes for a nicer place. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, it's only one opinion.
BTW....I was a raider for a short time too. I couldn't stand myself, so....I quit. No, I'm not joking.
I doubt you will be attacked for this because the majority shares your opinion, if for their own reasons. I only raided for the content and because I was in games with a wife and RL friends so there was the social part of it. I was fortunate enough to be in my buddies guilds and they had a group that was pretty laid back when it came to gear progression and we actually argued over vent as to who should take the loot when it dropped. So because of my mindset, it wasn't the need to look L33t that made me go back because gear never meant much to me.
Having said that I have dabbled in a hardcore raiding guild with my best friend when he departed the casual guild. My experiences there were nightmarish. I never realized how much I actually hated the raiding untill it became run by elitist and the enjoyment was overpowered by the amount of rules. before the one guy who is preaching raiding throws childish attacks my way, no I was not bad at following instructions and thats all raid content really is. The guild cleared content fairly easily because our leader lovded spending time going over strats and yes I am a keyboard turner (not sure why that is even an isnult since it never hurt me in PvP either). I didn't have a bad experience, I just saw firsthand what the hardcore raiders, you know those minorities, were like.
GW2 will have end game but not raiding in the sence that some have grown accustomed to. And this makes me happy.
I do wish games would make the leveling process slower and make the game about the leveling process rather than everyone sitting at max level and complaining about an "endgame" . When you make a game take more than a couple weeks to max lvl you then have the "grinding" cry babies. Zomgz I didn't get to max lvl in a week!!1! What a Korean GRINDFEST!
I understand that everyone hates raiders, however, I do see a valid issue with the endgame. I don't see so much an issue with the raiding aspect as the no gear grinding aspect. I've heard some people say there is no way to advance your character other than cosmetic items and titles. If they hand out the best gear to everyone with little effort...what will we do? Hang out and explore? We will need to be pleased with pvp and titles/cosmetic items.
How does a game with no way to make your character better keep people around (other than pvp)?
Super hard 25 man raids without ridiculously OP rewards? Oh I can see it now....
"I killed the elder dragons and all I got was this lousy t-shirt that just looks better than my other t-shirt"
What does this have to do with GW2?
Sure, there are some tough open world bosses as part of the story but they are hardly 25 man raids.
And the point of playing through the main story is the same reason that you read a book or watch a movie: You want to just hear and be part of a good story. You don't get loot from reading a book, do you?
The point of playing a game is to have fun. If the only thing you think is fun is getting more stuff then I pity you.
I blame christmas, it turned a spiritual thing into something that just is about getting stuff.
Loke she wasn't making a seriouse statement. It was a light hearted responce to someone elses take on raiding without the gear at the end. Maybe you missed it I don't know
Thing is there are those who are going to be jumping in to GW2 with little knowledge, expecting a rush to end level with raiding and stat progression achieved by linear questing, early on these players will go 'wait this is very different...' and will be forced to do a little research in order to adjust to 'WTH is going on with the lack of quest givers and all this madness happening around me', they'll either embrace it or they won't. Nothing we can do to make the hard core raider change their mindset, so yes we'll see a fair bit of flack over various forums (as we do with all games) about how this is not the game they expected.
Look at these forums and see how so many of us have embraced what Anet are building and done so with plenty of joy, I figure we'll see a lot of changed expectations from those who know nothing of the real value and depth of gameplay GW2 should offer, a lot of those changed expectations will be for the better as we have seen here, I suspect it will reflect the microcosm of this forum and veer towards the positive.
As for staying power and the end game starting at level one: For that to succeed Anet have covered two important points, different content of a changing environment through DE's and different ways of completing that content - kill the fire makers or put out the fires, we are going to be faced with different choices from the word go, both out in the real world and in the personal storyline all of which affects a changing world. Add in a world where players never get in your way, a fun combat system and the ability to access all content at any level and still have meaning- the re-playability for one character is all there and enormous. there'll be titles to chase, crafting to pursue, end game dungeons to complete and of course PvP.
We know they'll have a significant proportion of their studio dealing with current content while the rest develops future content, that means significant improvements and additions to whats already there as well as brand new content to look forward to. If people are going to utilise their cash shop they really need to keep them playing.
*sigh* are we there yet ?
Lets not forget that casual to normal gamers don't chew through content like hardcore raiders do. So a little goes a lot longer way for us than it does for them. I'm testing a casual oriented game right now and the hardcores whine incessantly about lack of content, they already have maxed level characters and the bitching is deafening, but the target audience the game is going for is not maxing out, they are enjoying the trip and we have no complaints about the lack of content, but we are also the least noisy about it and I fear that the developers will do just like every other one in the past. They'll listen to the hardcores and ruin the experience for the casuals they intend the game to target. They ruined the original EverQuest, they ruined the original World of Warcraft, they even ruined the original Dark Age of Camelot (Trials of Atlantis), all of which were very raid light games that turned into raid or die games.
I do wish games would make the leveling process slower and make the game about the leveling process rather than everyone sitting at max level and complaining about an "endgame" . When you make a game take more than a couple weeks to max lvl you then have the "grinding" cry babies. Zomgz I didn't get to max lvl in a week!!1! What a Korean GRINDFEST!
I understand that everyone hates raiders, however, I do see a valid issue with the endgame. I don't see so much an issue with the raiding aspect as the no gear grinding aspect. I've heard some people say there is no way to advance your character other than cosmetic items and titles. If they hand out the best gear to everyone with little effort...what will we do? Hang out and explore? We will need to be pleased with pvp and titles/cosmetic items.
How does a game with no way to make your character better keep people around (other than pvp)?
While I am here I'll say I completely agree with this ^^. I was having this same discussion in a thread about why people call WoW E-Z. It's funny because that was my whole point. The vast majority of the game is leveling, but the ride to the top is fast and mind numbingly easy that I quit. It is probably not easy to balance grind vs decent leveling advancement. Hopefully GW2's system keeps you engrossed enough where you rarely notice the exp bar and when you cap, you don't feel like it's an end game per se. I love rolling alts and I am probably one of the few that actually enjoys leveling and feeling like my character is growing. I enjoy the ride and not the destination.
Originally posted by just1opinion Amazing. I've had to put a couple of people on ignore from the Religion and Politics forum, but never from just the regular game forums, until today. When a poster's arrogance is so pronounced that they refuse to even simply look at the facts that a game developer has released STATING what is NOT in the game....and then they insist on arguing their non-fact....it's probably a sign of some pathology in their personality and to ME, is a red flag letting me know that blocking them will make reading the forums not only more factual, but more pleasant.
If you have to put someone on ignore for having an opinion, your more arrogant than they are.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
Unless most people that write in the forums never played more than one MMO, or are too young to analyze what happened in the past failed mmo's, i can’t think of nothing else then:
People still hate each other because don’t agree with an opinion.
Still dream about a perfect MMO, and even without playing a beta, just based on the developers ideas , start to write about ideas as facts. If people remember, we all done the same mistake about: AoC, Warhammer, Aion, Lorto , only mentioning the most known ones. Some people will even defend how great these games are but the true is... the number of players are very low, and even when they become as FREE , most people will not be playing them again. Maybe some log, take a look, but will not be going back again. Before the game went live, very similar things was wrote , people went mad when someone wrote some concerns about those games, and attack them like they lives depends on those games.
We all want that GW2 be a huge success, a long game, with a great social aspect, great PVP. Instead of be writing in a forum i rather be playing some game, that i am enjoying. Does GW2 have great idea, YES, seems to go in the direction a MMO should go, YES. Everything will work as all expect. NO IDEIA. And everyone that defends that will be, should think again, and look into the past MMO'S.
Will it lose 'staying power' due to lack of endgame?
Every game will lose “staying power” if it lacks a good endgame, thinking otherwise is a huge mistake, European and American players don’t like to be doing the same thing over and over again. If that happens, they will leave the game after a few months.
Does endgame have to be Raids like we have seen in other MMO’S, maybe not, have other games worked without a endgame without raids? EVE is the only one so far, but is a very different game, and the players base of that game aren’t the same ones looking for a RPGMMO. IF all remember, after reaching the end of the previous games I mentioned before, most players just left, at best they kept playing for 2 months after.
Was the lack of raids? I don’t think so, but due to the fact of, nonexistent endgame, people just got bored and left.
Is the endgame of GW2 enough?
Assuming that most players will level 5 alts before leaving the game I really don’t think that will happen, at best they will try the starting areas, after the rest of the game seems to be very similar, IF the events are as good as ANET described, maybe an Alt will be an option for most.
Will most people be doing PVP for a long time after that, maybe for 2 or 3 months, after they will come back if bored of other games? Most will argue that people still play PVP in GW after more than 6 years, but most will also agree that most goes away after 2months and come back later if they have no other MMO that they like.
Are dungeons enough? Well… the design of the dungeons are made for people be able to do them in 2-3 hours, having 3 different paths in the endgame is nice, nothing new, but people will burn those very quickly.
Course we will have new events that we missed the first time, we will have lots of places to explore deeply , the professions and a few minor things that might keep us all busy for some more time.
Will ALL of this to maintain players after 5 months? No one can answer this. But a fact is, the more content people will have to play, the longer will remain. People will return when a expansion arrives, some will, other wont.
Is “raids” needed for and endgame, maybe not, maybe ANET have some tricks that we haven’t seen yet.
But we have to keep in mind that the MAIN goal of any developer is, to make money.
ANET is aware that, the better GW2 will be more money they will get. Why developers choose to do “Raids” , takes almost the same time as a well designed dungeon, but instead of people doing it in 3 hours will be slowly progressing the that content. They need to be as we seen in other games, certainly not, but they will need something that they can do fast and players will take some time to progress.
Some last words will be addressed to all, that keep telling people that GW2 is not the game for them, also to the others that don’t even try to understand the concerns of others, just like all of you and me, most people only want that GW2 to be a success, and the more opinions the better, reading and understanding will only be better for all.
Thank you for reading this long post, and sorry for some language problems.
Amazing. I've had to put a couple of people on ignore from the Religion and Politics forum, but never from just the regular game forums, until today. When a poster's arrogance is so pronounced that they refuse to even simply look at the facts that a game developer has released STATING what is NOT in the game....and then they insist on arguing their non-fact....it's probably a sign of some pathology in their personality and to ME, is a red flag letting me know that blocking them will make reading the forums not only more factual, but more pleasant.
If you have to put someone on ignore for having an opinion, your more arrogant than they are.
I think the problem was that they were stating opinion as though it were fact.
With the leveling focusing on quests and quest chains and quest hubs, it's harder to level as a group. Put the focus back on encouraging war parties to go out and kill monsters, clear non-instanced dungeons, and gaming will again feel social on the way to max level. Then at the end game, as long as the player killing or raiding is fun, people will stick around because they're created relationships along the way, and have people to group with.
Amazing. I've had to put a couple of people on ignore from the Religion and Politics forum, but never from just the regular game forums, until today. When a poster's arrogance is so pronounced that they refuse to even simply look at the facts that a game developer has released STATING what is NOT in the game....and then they insist on arguing their non-fact....it's probably a sign of some pathology in their personality and to ME, is a red flag letting me know that blocking them will make reading the forums not only more factual, but more pleasant.
If you have to put someone on ignore for having an opinion, your more arrogant than they are.
I think the problem was that they were stating opinion as though it were fact.
Most every post on this thread is opinions being made as facts. It's just that you dont like their opinion that bothers you.
Look at how many people say how fun the game will be, how much there will be to do, how it doesn't need this and doesn't need that. And they have never played the game for one second. But they speak it as if they already know. But that is fine. Just dont disagree with their opinion or your a troll.
what is this "endgame" people talk about ..arnt mmorpgs sopose to be about a never ending story / quest
Who told you that? MMOs are supposed to level cap you, and then send you on frustrating weekly raids where you're not guaranteed to really improve anything about your character, their story, or your own skill, solely for the purpose of maybe getting + 10 pauldrons that make you look totally badass in town. Duh. Endame is about FLASH and instanced content that includes bosses with 30 mil HP, so you better get with it.
This post has been brought to you by Eir_S is a sarcastic bitch who's tired of people whining about endgame.
What do people have against raiding? Where you left out of some raid in your previous game..was it discovered you were in fact a keyboard turner..
The anomosity against End Game Content is amazing.
Just because you may not like raiding it doesnt mean others feel the same way. I for one love end game raiding and believe there will be some type of structured end game raiding in GW2.. In fact.. I know there is currently.. A little birdy told me..
Amazing what people talk about at the hotel bar @ the Crown Plaza..
So all you that are looking to GW2 as a social experiment that has no competitive raiding... hate to disappoint you but if its a deal breaker for you, then I would start looking...
Boy you are PROVING you're a raider with that cock sure attitude of yours. Everything we've all said....you're validating with your arrogant determination to fight for a stance that ArenaNet has already PROVEN you wrong on.
BTW, "end game content" doesn't require "raiding." There is plenty of end game content that requires 5 man groups. Just because ANet has changed this "rule" on you, you're all butt hurt. Seems to me that you're the one that needs to look elsewhere for a game to play. I'm sure you'll be very happy in SWTOR, which I will avoid like the plague....to avoid raiders and their disgusting attitudes, for one.
Amazing. I've had to put a couple of people on ignore from the Religion and Politics forum, but never from just the regular game forums, until today. When a poster's arrogance is so pronounced that they refuse to even simply look at the facts that a game developer has released STATING what is NOT in the game....and then they insist on arguing their non-fact....it's probably a sign of some pathology in their personality and to ME, is a red flag letting me know that blocking them will make reading the forums not only more factual, but more pleasant.
If you have to put someone on ignore for having an opinion, your more arrogant than they are.
I think the problem was that they were stating opinion as though it were fact.
You're right exactly. And to the snarky little person that responded to you saying most of this thread is opinions, it is NOT. Most of us WATCH and keep up with GW2 dev blog and conference game play videos and other INFORMATION that comes directly from people that have played the game at conferences. We're going from FACTS as far as what is now IN the game. Then there are other people that chime in that have obviously never kept up with the game and are simply here to troll the thread for their jollies. I block people like THAT. I have no need to waste my time reading that garbage.
Unless most people that write in the forums never played more than one MMO, or are too young to analyze what happened in the past failed mmo's, i can’t think of nothing else then:
People still hate each other because don’t agree with an opinion.
Still dream about a perfect MMO, and even without playing a beta, just based on the developers ideas , start to write about ideas as facts. If people remember, we all done the same mistake about: AoC, Warhammer, Aion, Lorto , only mentioning the most known ones. Some people will even defend how great these games are but the true is... the number of players are very low, and even when they become as FREE , most people will not be playing them again. Maybe some log, take a look, but will not be going back again. Before the game went live, very similar things was wrote , people went mad when someone wrote some concerns about those games, and attack them like they lives depends on those games.
The difference with Guild Wars 2 is that most of the things that are revolutionary are not promises of content but simply a different take on game design. I understand what your saying, and there have been a plethora of MMORPs between EQ and now that I've looked forward to and left disapointed like Vanguard for example.
Everything that I personaly like about Guild Wars 2 has been displayed in videos and hands on at gameshows, as they say seeing is believing. For example I've seen PvP videos where a squishy caster can survive for what seems like forever and heal up, etc. Then I see a guardian wreck him later. That proves their game system to me that it's not based on the tank,healer,dps pigeonholes. This frees you up to enjoy playing a playstyle, instead of forced to play a class to compete or just have a spot to see content.
WoW and RIFT, to a degree, have maintained their relative popularity due to the developer focus on "endgame" i.e., "hardcore progression" in instances with 10+ players.
As of this writing, GW2 has not mentioned any instances other than 5 player dungeons. Sure, they will have "world events" that allow cooperation between multiple players, but grouping isn't even requred for those.
What do you think about this?
Well for one thing, since you've even mentioned they haven't pointed out their end game strategy none of us know what it is. Secondly, I would much rather a game be filled with endless other things to do then spend every waking hour waiting on some raid group to get together to do a ten man for the 100th time for a single item to drop, or have to do 100 heroic difficulty level dungeons to get any decent gear. It's why i left WoW in the first place. The only good world drops were crazy insane miniscule percentage to drop anything and thats all i spent time doing in WoW. MMO's have so much more potential then just running around in dungeons.
Saying that's what all mmo players ever want to do is like saying that's all FPS players want to do is stand around and shoot something until it's health bar is gone. It's boring. Dynamic events in any game even in a groupless zone per zone event engine is so much smarter then having to wait for the right number of people to group to do something as mindless as killing a healthbar. Adding a dance routine to the same old run around and kill the mighty healthbar standard we've all seen already isn't making it any better.
And finally let me just say this. The REAL reason World of Warcraft has lasted so long isn't due to the game raid content, it's due to the company touching the lives of so many players with their Diablo and Warcraft series AND the social aspect of the game. For most of the mmo gamers out there World of Warcraft is all they know because that was the gateway game to put them squarely into the mmo genre they started playing because friends and family did. Just because the hardcore gamers jump from game to game seeking the best possible challenge doesn't mean the majority of gamers do and the REAL reason most people are STILL playing World of Warcraft to this day is simply because most of their friends are still there. It's like anything else on the internet people will flock to where their friends hang out. Case in point, Facebook.
Boy you are PROVING you're a raider with that cock sure attitude of yours. Everything we've all said....you're validating with your arrogant determination to fight for a stance that ArenaNet has already PROVEN you wrong on.
BTW, "end game content" doesn't require "raiding." There is plenty of end game content that requires 5 man groups. Just because ANet has changed this "rule" on you, you're all butt hurt. Seems to me that you're the one that needs to look elsewhere for a game to play. I'm sure you'll be very happy in SWTOR, which I will avoid like the plague....to avoid raiders and their disgusting attitudes, for one.
Why is it that i have to be arrogant or have a disgusting attitude because I have an opinion.
Arent forums designed to have civilized debates, to share opinions and give information.
My apologies if my opinions dont meet at the same place in the road as your, but they are just that opinions.
I thank you for your opinions and please keep your attacks to yourself, they are in no way furthering the thread.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
Boy you are PROVING you're a raider with that cock sure attitude of yours. Everything we've all said....you're validating with your arrogant determination to fight for a stance that ArenaNet has already PROVEN you wrong on.
BTW, "end game content" doesn't require "raiding." There is plenty of end game content that requires 5 man groups. Just because ANet has changed this "rule" on you, you're all butt hurt. Seems to me that you're the one that needs to look elsewhere for a game to play. I'm sure you'll be very happy in SWTOR, which I will avoid like the plague....to avoid raiders and their disgusting attitudes, for one.
Why is it that i have to be arrogant or have a disgusting attitude because I have an opinion.
Arent forums designed to have civilized debates, to share opinions and give information.
My apologies if my opinions dont meet at the same place in the road as your, but they are just that opinions.
I thank you for your opinions and please keep your attacks to yourself, they are in no way furthering the thread.
every one has there own games they like if these attacks keep up and the game ant out yet its pointless, XD why not wait until the game at least comes out and breath alittle have alittle air then get it play it..... let it hang around a few years let every one see the game for them self .
I do wish games would make the leveling process slower and make the game about the leveling process rather than everyone sitting at max level and complaining about an "endgame" . When you make a game take more than a couple weeks to max lvl you then have the "grinding" cry babies. Zomgz I didn't get to max lvl in a week!!1! What a Korean GRINDFEST!
I understand that everyone hates raiders, however, I do see a valid issue with the endgame. I don't see so much an issue with the raiding aspect as the no gear grinding aspect. I've heard some people say there is no way to advance your character other than cosmetic items and titles. If they hand out the best gear to everyone with little effort...what will we do? Hang out and explore? We will need to be pleased with pvp and titles/cosmetic items.
How does a game with no way to make your character better keep people around (other than pvp)?
If you want to be "better" than others then you should learn how to play our class well. If you only want to raid for hours on end to get a shot at that piece of über gear that will make you "better" than others, then move along, not going to happen. Being better will come from your real skill, not from not having a life and getting gear that most other players simply cannot get due to RL time restrictions.
If you can't even imagine being any good on a level playing field, then you have some work cut out for you.
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
Considering the fact Guild Wars always had a reputation of PvP game, and with how the PvP is shaping in GW2 i don't think it has to depend on some generic end-game to keep people interested. Sure, some will get tired after they do all the stories and everything, but a big lure for many players interested in GW is the competetive and WvWvW PvP.
Yeah it's instanced, yeah it's int heory nothing new, but it has something that previous traidtional MMOs that had their priroties spread between grind, end game and PvP lacked. The storyline and Tournaments are what really makes GW2 a buy for me and i don't really care whenever there are raids or no... i did enough of that crap in other games.
Comments
What does this have to do with GW2?
Sure, there are some tough open world bosses as part of the story but they are hardly 25 man raids.
And the point of playing through the main story is the same reason that you read a book or watch a movie: You want to just hear and be part of a good story. You don't get loot from reading a book, do you?
The point of playing a game is to have fun. If the only thing you think is fun is getting more stuff then I pity you.
I blame christmas, it turned a spiritual thing into something that just is about getting stuff.
This is exactly what I hear when I listen to raiders whine. They're not doing themselves any favors... lol.
I despise the whole raiding paradigm that became so prevelent with the later versions of EverQuest. I don't know if it's due to the type of content or if it just draws that kind of person, but I have met very few raiders that I would want to associate with, let alone befriend. I'm a fan of TOR, but it pisses me off to no end that they are already giving raiders the best gear and locking up some of the game's story and history into raid only environments. Bioware is falling into the same trap as every other mediocre to god awful MMO out there. I'm counting on you Arena.Net to have the ballsacks to not do the same thing!
The animosity is towards the developers who can't seem to think beyond easy to program, lazy grind content that only appeals to a small segment of the player base and telling everyone to love it or leave. The animosity is about paying for content that the niche segment likes while the rest of the game suffers from neglect and being made obsolete for the majority of players. It's about almost every single MMO embracing this paradigm because it's the cheap and lazy way to design subpar content with virtually no alternative MMOs who don't buy into this raiding crap for all of those non-raiders who "gasp" are in the majority and foot most of the bill.
I doubt you will be attacked for this because the majority shares your opinion, if for their own reasons. I only raided for the content and because I was in games with a wife and RL friends so there was the social part of it. I was fortunate enough to be in my buddies guilds and they had a group that was pretty laid back when it came to gear progression and we actually argued over vent as to who should take the loot when it dropped. So because of my mindset, it wasn't the need to look L33t that made me go back because gear never meant much to me.
Having said that I have dabbled in a hardcore raiding guild with my best friend when he departed the casual guild. My experiences there were nightmarish. I never realized how much I actually hated the raiding untill it became run by elitist and the enjoyment was overpowered by the amount of rules. before the one guy who is preaching raiding throws childish attacks my way, no I was not bad at following instructions and thats all raid content really is. The guild cleared content fairly easily because our leader lovded spending time going over strats and yes I am a keyboard turner (not sure why that is even an isnult since it never hurt me in PvP either). I didn't have a bad experience, I just saw firsthand what the hardcore raiders, you know those minorities, were like.
GW2 will have end game but not raiding in the sence that some have grown accustomed to. And this makes me happy.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I do wish games would make the leveling process slower and make the game about the leveling process rather than everyone sitting at max level and complaining about an "endgame" . When you make a game take more than a couple weeks to max lvl you then have the "grinding" cry babies. Zomgz I didn't get to max lvl in a week!!1! What a Korean GRINDFEST!
I understand that everyone hates raiders, however, I do see a valid issue with the endgame. I don't see so much an issue with the raiding aspect as the no gear grinding aspect. I've heard some people say there is no way to advance your character other than cosmetic items and titles. If they hand out the best gear to everyone with little effort...what will we do? Hang out and explore? We will need to be pleased with pvp and titles/cosmetic items.
How does a game with no way to make your character better keep people around (other than pvp)?
Loke she wasn't making a seriouse statement. It was a light hearted responce to someone elses take on raiding without the gear at the end. Maybe you missed it I don't know
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
Lets not forget that casual to normal gamers don't chew through content like hardcore raiders do. So a little goes a lot longer way for us than it does for them. I'm testing a casual oriented game right now and the hardcores whine incessantly about lack of content, they already have maxed level characters and the bitching is deafening, but the target audience the game is going for is not maxing out, they are enjoying the trip and we have no complaints about the lack of content, but we are also the least noisy about it and I fear that the developers will do just like every other one in the past. They'll listen to the hardcores and ruin the experience for the casuals they intend the game to target. They ruined the original EverQuest, they ruined the original World of Warcraft, they even ruined the original Dark Age of Camelot (Trials of Atlantis), all of which were very raid light games that turned into raid or die games.
While I am here I'll say I completely agree with this ^^. I was having this same discussion in a thread about why people call WoW E-Z. It's funny because that was my whole point. The vast majority of the game is leveling, but the ride to the top is fast and mind numbingly easy that I quit. It is probably not easy to balance grind vs decent leveling advancement. Hopefully GW2's system keeps you engrossed enough where you rarely notice the exp bar and when you cap, you don't feel like it's an end game per se. I love rolling alts and I am probably one of the few that actually enjoys leveling and feeling like my character is growing. I enjoy the ride and not the destination.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
If you have to put someone on ignore for having an opinion, your more arrogant than they are.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
Have people learned anything from the last MMO'S?
Guess not.
Unless most people that write in the forums never played more than one MMO, or are too young to analyze what happened in the past failed mmo's, i can’t think of nothing else then:
People still hate each other because don’t agree with an opinion.
Still dream about a perfect MMO, and even without playing a beta, just based on the developers ideas , start to write about ideas as facts. If people remember, we all done the same mistake about: AoC, Warhammer, Aion, Lorto , only mentioning the most known ones. Some people will even defend how great these games are but the true is... the number of players are very low, and even when they become as FREE , most people will not be playing them again. Maybe some log, take a look, but will not be going back again. Before the game went live, very similar things was wrote , people went mad when someone wrote some concerns about those games, and attack them like they lives depends on those games.
We all want that GW2 be a huge success, a long game, with a great social aspect, great PVP. Instead of be writing in a forum i rather be playing some game, that i am enjoying. Does GW2 have great idea, YES, seems to go in the direction a MMO should go, YES. Everything will work as all expect. NO IDEIA. And everyone that defends that will be, should think again, and look into the past MMO'S.
Will it lose 'staying power' due to lack of endgame?
Every game will lose “staying power” if it lacks a good endgame, thinking otherwise is a huge mistake, European and American players don’t like to be doing the same thing over and over again. If that happens, they will leave the game after a few months.
Does endgame have to be Raids like we have seen in other MMO’S, maybe not, have other games worked without a endgame without raids? EVE is the only one so far, but is a very different game, and the players base of that game aren’t the same ones looking for a RPGMMO. IF all remember, after reaching the end of the previous games I mentioned before, most players just left, at best they kept playing for 2 months after.
Was the lack of raids? I don’t think so, but due to the fact of, nonexistent endgame, people just got bored and left.
Is the endgame of GW2 enough?
Assuming that most players will level 5 alts before leaving the game I really don’t think that will happen, at best they will try the starting areas, after the rest of the game seems to be very similar, IF the events are as good as ANET described, maybe an Alt will be an option for most.
Will most people be doing PVP for a long time after that, maybe for 2 or 3 months, after they will come back if bored of other games? Most will argue that people still play PVP in GW after more than 6 years, but most will also agree that most goes away after 2months and come back later if they have no other MMO that they like.
Are dungeons enough? Well… the design of the dungeons are made for people be able to do them in 2-3 hours, having 3 different paths in the endgame is nice, nothing new, but people will burn those very quickly.
Course we will have new events that we missed the first time, we will have lots of places to explore deeply , the professions and a few minor things that might keep us all busy for some more time.
Will ALL of this to maintain players after 5 months? No one can answer this. But a fact is, the more content people will have to play, the longer will remain. People will return when a expansion arrives, some will, other wont.
Is “raids” needed for and endgame, maybe not, maybe ANET have some tricks that we haven’t seen yet.
But we have to keep in mind that the MAIN goal of any developer is, to make money.
ANET is aware that, the better GW2 will be more money they will get. Why developers choose to do “Raids” , takes almost the same time as a well designed dungeon, but instead of people doing it in 3 hours will be slowly progressing the that content. They need to be as we seen in other games, certainly not, but they will need something that they can do fast and players will take some time to progress.
Some last words will be addressed to all, that keep telling people that GW2 is not the game for them, also to the others that don’t even try to understand the concerns of others, just like all of you and me, most people only want that GW2 to be a success, and the more opinions the better, reading and understanding will only be better for all.
Thank you for reading this long post, and sorry for some language problems.
I think the problem was that they were stating opinion as though it were fact.
With the leveling focusing on quests and quest chains and quest hubs, it's harder to level as a group. Put the focus back on encouraging war parties to go out and kill monsters, clear non-instanced dungeons, and gaming will again feel social on the way to max level. Then at the end game, as long as the player killing or raiding is fun, people will stick around because they're created relationships along the way, and have people to group with.
Most every post on this thread is opinions being made as facts. It's just that you dont like their opinion that bothers you.
Look at how many people say how fun the game will be, how much there will be to do, how it doesn't need this and doesn't need that. And they have never played the game for one second. But they speak it as if they already know. But that is fine. Just dont disagree with their opinion or your a troll.
Boy you are PROVING you're a raider with that cock sure attitude of yours. Everything we've all said....you're validating with your arrogant determination to fight for a stance that ArenaNet has already PROVEN you wrong on.
BTW, "end game content" doesn't require "raiding." There is plenty of end game content that requires 5 man groups. Just because ANet has changed this "rule" on you, you're all butt hurt. Seems to me that you're the one that needs to look elsewhere for a game to play. I'm sure you'll be very happy in SWTOR, which I will avoid like the plague....to avoid raiders and their disgusting attitudes, for one.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
You're right exactly. And to the snarky little person that responded to you saying most of this thread is opinions, it is NOT. Most of us WATCH and keep up with GW2 dev blog and conference game play videos and other INFORMATION that comes directly from people that have played the game at conferences. We're going from FACTS as far as what is now IN the game. Then there are other people that chime in that have obviously never kept up with the game and are simply here to troll the thread for their jollies. I block people like THAT. I have no need to waste my time reading that garbage.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
The difference with Guild Wars 2 is that most of the things that are revolutionary are not promises of content but simply a different take on game design. I understand what your saying, and there have been a plethora of MMORPs between EQ and now that I've looked forward to and left disapointed like Vanguard for example.
Everything that I personaly like about Guild Wars 2 has been displayed in videos and hands on at gameshows, as they say seeing is believing. For example I've seen PvP videos where a squishy caster can survive for what seems like forever and heal up, etc. Then I see a guardian wreck him later. That proves their game system to me that it's not based on the tank,healer,dps pigeonholes. This frees you up to enjoy playing a playstyle, instead of forced to play a class to compete or just have a spot to see content.
Well for one thing, since you've even mentioned they haven't pointed out their end game strategy none of us know what it is. Secondly, I would much rather a game be filled with endless other things to do then spend every waking hour waiting on some raid group to get together to do a ten man for the 100th time for a single item to drop, or have to do 100 heroic difficulty level dungeons to get any decent gear. It's why i left WoW in the first place. The only good world drops were crazy insane miniscule percentage to drop anything and thats all i spent time doing in WoW. MMO's have so much more potential then just running around in dungeons.
Saying that's what all mmo players ever want to do is like saying that's all FPS players want to do is stand around and shoot something until it's health bar is gone. It's boring. Dynamic events in any game even in a groupless zone per zone event engine is so much smarter then having to wait for the right number of people to group to do something as mindless as killing a healthbar. Adding a dance routine to the same old run around and kill the mighty healthbar standard we've all seen already isn't making it any better.
And finally let me just say this. The REAL reason World of Warcraft has lasted so long isn't due to the game raid content, it's due to the company touching the lives of so many players with their Diablo and Warcraft series AND the social aspect of the game. For most of the mmo gamers out there World of Warcraft is all they know because that was the gateway game to put them squarely into the mmo genre they started playing because friends and family did. Just because the hardcore gamers jump from game to game seeking the best possible challenge doesn't mean the majority of gamers do and the REAL reason most people are STILL playing World of Warcraft to this day is simply because most of their friends are still there. It's like anything else on the internet people will flock to where their friends hang out. Case in point, Facebook.
I think you just hurt GW2 reputation by comparing it to facebook..lol
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
It would be cool i guess, but in this case its not necessary.
Why is it that i have to be arrogant or have a disgusting attitude because I have an opinion.
Arent forums designed to have civilized debates, to share opinions and give information.
My apologies if my opinions dont meet at the same place in the road as your, but they are just that opinions.
I thank you for your opinions and please keep your attacks to yourself, they are in no way furthering the thread.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
every one has there own games they like
if these attacks keep up and the game ant out yet its pointless, XD why not wait until the game at least comes out and breath alittle have alittle air then get it play it..... let it hang around a few years let every one see the game for them self . 
.....
If you want to be "better" than others then you should learn how to play our class well. If you only want to raid for hours on end to get a shot at that piece of über gear that will make you "better" than others, then move along, not going to happen. Being better will come from your real skill, not from not having a life and getting gear that most other players simply cannot get due to RL time restrictions.
If you can't even imagine being any good on a level playing field, then you have some work cut out for you.
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
Considering the fact Guild Wars always had a reputation of PvP game, and with how the PvP is shaping in GW2 i don't think it has to depend on some generic end-game to keep people interested. Sure, some will get tired after they do all the stories and everything, but a big lure for many players interested in GW is the competetive and WvWvW PvP.
Yeah it's instanced, yeah it's int heory nothing new, but it has something that previous traidtional MMOs that had their priroties spread between grind, end game and PvP lacked. The storyline and Tournaments are what really makes GW2 a buy for me and i don't really care whenever there are raids or no... i did enough of that crap in other games.
I think i might have, however it was aimed more towards World of Warcraft being the bigger facebook like vehicle for my argument.