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What TTH has to say about GW2 PVP after playing it at PAX

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Comments

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by fiontar

    1. It's Star Wars, of course it's going to have huge hype.

    2. swtor.com already accepting closed beta apps and pre-orders, GW2 is not.

    3. swtor has an official forums, which drives traffic to the site, GW2 does not.

    4. swtor is closer to release.

    5. GW2 is still flying under the radar for many people, it's hard for gamers to not know about swtor.

    Heh, and the 'GW2 vs SWTOR' competition never ends, it seems.

    As for the points above, I think that only point 1 and 5 are right.

     

    I looked at the statistics (nice site btw, I bookmarked it for use with other things), from what I saw it showed statistics of 1 year long, so even regarding timeperiods when there was nothing known about either release, nor pre-orders happening.

    Besides, look at it objectively: SWTOR has BW and Star Wars connected to it, GW2 only GW and ANet. Of course SWTOR will be far more known to the general populace than GW2.

    Does it really matter?

    Besides the fact that I don't think that there should be 'one MMO that rules them all, one MMO to bind them' but that there can be more MMO's that are thriving next to eachother just like was the case before WoW, I also think that they're fun statistics but that only the after launch developments really count.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • babacbabac Member UncommonPosts: 179

    A-net tried to be the Industrychanger with the original GW, at that time everyone was laughing at them and their B2P model and they still managed to sell over 7 mil copies of their game. Now with GW2, if they deliver their promises, this game is going to change the mmo industry, for sure.

  • AKASlaphappyAKASlaphappy Member UncommonPosts: 800

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Besides the fact that I don't think that there should be 'one MMO that rules them all, one MMO to bind them' but that there can be more MMO's that are thriving next to eachother just like was the case before WoW, I also think that they're fun statistics but that only the after launch developments really count.


    Amen! With that how dare you MMO.Maverick bring common sense and logic as a TOR and GW2 fan into this discussion! You just broke res_1, and all the people that think the fans of GW2 are stupid for liking the game, heart. That is just mean and cruel, couldn’t you let them have their statics that prove all games but TOR (or insert game) are going to die theory? Rapid fans are going to be rapid fans and taking that away from them is like kicking a puppy, bad MMO. Maverick bad *shakes finger*!

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by AKASlaphappy




    Amen! With that how dare you MMO.Maverick bring common sense and logic as a TOR and GW2 fan into this discussion! You just broke res_1, and all the people that think the fans of GW2 are stupid for liking the game, heart. That is just mean and cruel, couldn’t you let them have their statics that prove all games but TOR (or insert game) are going to die theory? Rapid fans are going to be rapid fans and taking that away from them is like kicking a puppy, bad MMO. Maverick bad *shakes finger*!

    Ok, I confess, I often try to sneakily troll with common sense and logic, you got me, damn you! image

    Now hush, not everyone has to know! imageimage

     

    edit: great TTH article, nice read!

     


    Originally posted by babac

    A-net tried to be the Industrychanger with the original GW, at that time everyone was laughing at them and their B2P model and they still managed to sell over 7 mil copies of their game. Now with GW2, if they deliver their promises, this game is going to change the mmo industry, for sure.

    I think when we're well into 2013, that we'll be looking at a drastically changed MMO landscape. How exactly it'll look remains to be seen, but I have no doubt that SWTOR, GW2, TSW, TERA, Firefall, World of Darkness, ArcheAge and several others all taken together will rigorously reset the table.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • PNM_JenningsPNM_Jennings Member UncommonPosts: 1,093

    I don't know why people have such vitriolic responses to the statement that GW2 is overhyped. I don't it's usually meant in a "this game will have no redeeming features" sort of way, but rather in a "nothing is that good/if you keep your hopes this high you will be dissapointed no matter what." Like DNF. No way to live up to the hype. I think a lot of people could use the influence of Captain Downer sometimes.

    In other news: I continue to attempt to reign in my personal hype for GW2, and the internet continues to thwart that plan.


  • Originally posted by atticusbc

    I don't know why people have such vitriolic responses to the statement that GW2 is overhyped. I don't it's usually meant in a "this game will have no redeeming features" sort of way, but rather in a "nothing is that good/if you keep your hopes this high you will be dissapointed no matter what." Like DNF. No way to live up to the hype. I think a lot of people could use the influence of Captain Downer sometimes.

    In other news: I continue to attempt to reign in my personal hype for GW2, and the internet continues to thwart that plan.

    Every game is overhyped.  Its the nature of the human condition, plus journalists are generally stupid and gullible.  I would go so far as to say journalists are more stupid and gullible than your average person.  They fool themselves into it so that they can have something interesting to write.  Its like a confidence game, half of the deception is your own greed motivating you to lie to yourself.

     

    I give no credence to people who complain about a game because its "over hyped" unless they come armed with some evidence or decent argument about the game itself.  Otherwise they are just being hypocrites and using the same bad pattern inversely.

  • ZbusZbus Member Posts: 116

    I hate the word E-sport makes me think of WOW wish the review guy had used anouther word to describe GW2. Still like the game concept but just hate that word.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Every game is overhyped.  Its the nature of the human condition, plus journalists are generally stupid and gullible.  I would go so far as to say journalists are more stupid and gullible than your average person.  They fool themselves into it so that they can have something interesting to write.  Its like a confidence game, half of the deception is your own greed motivating you to lie to yourself.

    I give no credence to people who complain about a game because its "over hyped" unless they come armed with some evidence or decent argument about the game itself.  Otherwise they are just being hypocrites and using the same bad pattern inversely.

    Would you buy a PC gamer where it said that all upcomming games will suck? I have a feeling that might hurt sales numbers.

    Hype is the thing that got many people buying a life tie sub for STO, but it really affect sensible people little, it just makes them keep their eyes a little extra on a game.

    Anyone buying a untested game have themselves to blame if it sucks. Not that I am saying that any game particular game will suck but I try out any MMO before buying it.

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Member UncommonPosts: 2,551

    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Originally posted by atticusbc

    I don't know why people have such vitriolic responses to the statement that GW2 is overhyped. I don't it's usually meant in a "this game will have no redeeming features" sort of way, but rather in a "nothing is that good/if you keep your hopes this high you will be dissapointed no matter what." Like DNF. No way to live up to the hype. I think a lot of people could use the influence of Captain Downer sometimes.

    In other news: I continue to attempt to reign in my personal hype for GW2, and the internet continues to thwart that plan.

    Every game is overhyped.  Its the nature of the human condition, plus journalists are generally stupid and gullible.  I would go so far as to say journalists are more stupid and gullible than your average person.  They fool themselves into it so that they can have something interesting to write.  Its like a confidence game, half of the deception is your own greed motivating you to lie to yourself.

     

    I give no credence to people who complain about a game because its "over hyped" unless they come armed with some evidence or decent argument about the game itself.  Otherwise they are just being hypocrites and using the same bad pattern inversely.

    Every game is overhyped, but some games are still more hyped than others.  GW2, especially on this forum, is portrayed as if is the second coming of the MMORPG messiah, especially in regards to the company producing the game.  I've never seen such blind faith in a company.  It seems like every thread about Guild Wars 2 has someone virulently praising Arenanet.  Given that BioWare (another company with a stellar reputation among its customers) is also producing an MMORPG that gets shat on quite regularly and how dismissive most GW2 fans are to any criticism (ie constantly telling people they know NOTHING about GW2 or Arenanet's good business practices), I think GW2's praise just gets under people's skin.

    Of course, I think the gaming media is really just following public opinion.  About a year ago, the media was fawning all over SW:TOR and not having a lot to say about GW2.  Now that many people in MMO circles are blasting SW:TOR for being more of the same, you see that a lot in professional write-ups which is something I don't remember reading too much about for WAR or LotRO.  Similarly, GW2's rabid fanbase began touting the game as a revolution in MMO design, and likewise, professional reviewers have picked up on that and have done their job in feeding the hype.

    As far as GW2 is concerned, it's not innovation I'm worried about.  It's longevity.  Sure, the original Guild Wars is still running, but it hasn't seen a significant content update since 2007, and while it still has a playerbase, the game is laregely irrelevant to the world of multiplayer games.  Seeing as GW2 significantly reduces the leveling grind (flat leveling curve?) and has on-the-fly dynamic events rather than quests, I wonder what's going to keep me playing.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    but I have no doubt that SWTOR, GW2, TSW, TERA, Firefall, World of Darkness, ArcheAge and several others all taken together will rigorously reset the table.

     

    As much as I hate the inter-game sniping that is the majority of the content of this forum, I think I can agree.  MMO dynamics are changing, and we won't see the "WoW Killer" ever happening, but we may see a very rich period of many developing games in a short-ish period of time do what one single game could not.

    It's possible the Drought is over.  We'll see soon enough.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • cali59cali59 Member Posts: 1,634

    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    Every game is overhyped, but some games are still more hyped than others.  GW2, especially on this forum, is portrayed as if is the second coming of the MMORPG messiah, especially in regards to the company producing the game.  I've never seen such blind faith in a company.  It seems like every thread about Guild Wars 2 has someone virulently praising Arenanet.  Given that BioWare (another company with a stellar reputation among its customers) is also producing an MMORPG that gets shat on quite regularly and how dismissive most GW2 fans are to any criticism (ie constantly telling people they know NOTHING about GW2 or Arenanet's good business practices), I think GW2's praise just gets under people's skin.

    Of course, I think the gaming media is really just following public opinion.  About a year ago, the media was fawning all over SW:TOR and not having a lot to say about GW2.  Now that many people in MMO circles are blasting SW:TOR for being more of the same, you see that a lot in professional write-ups which is something I don't remember reading too much about for WAR or LotRO.  Similarly, GW2's rabid fanbase began touting the game as a revolution in MMO design, and likewise, professional reviewers have picked up on that and have done their job in feeding the hype.

    As far as GW2 is concerned, it's not innovation I'm worried about.  It's longevity.  Sure, the original Guild Wars is still running, but it hasn't seen a significant content update since 2007, and while it still has a playerbase, the game is laregely irrelevant to the world of multiplayer games.  Seeing as GW2 significantly reduces the leveling grind (flat leveling curve?) and has on-the-fly dynamic events rather than quests, I wonder what's going to keep me playing.

    It's not blind faith.  ArenaNet established a great reputation with GW1.  They've stated on several occassions that they don't discuss anything about GW2 unless it's already implemented and working.  There's tons of 30 and 60 minute demo videos of people doing low, medium and high level zones, all the races and revealed classes, multiple boss encounters, personal stories, running around cities, now even getting into some PVP and crafting.  We don't know everything and not everything they've said has been vertified, but the extensive amount of stuff they have shown has matched up with what they've told us.

    I personally am not dismissive of criticism, I encourage skepticism.  I have my own criticisms of the game.  In my opinion though, people aren't taking into account that GW2 is doing a lot of things differently than traditional MMOs.  A lot of criticism I've seen that does end up getting dismissed is because it's based on misinformation or drawing conclusions that don't necessarily follow from the evidence.  I've said it several times, if people have a sincere question about the game, I'll try to address it.  Maybe I can convince you, maybe I can't.  By all means wait for reviews of the finished game or a free trial before spending your money if you have concerns.  Or just don't buy it if it's not the game for you.  No game can be for everyone.

    I'd say professional reviewers aren't touting GW2 because the fanbase is saying the game is a revolution, I'd say they're touting the game because the game is actually a revolution.  All these reviewers are getting demo time on it, not even just a half hour but often playing multiple sessions.  To be honest, I'd say the existence of GW2 is a game changer, other games that look great compared to WoW don't impress me like they would have if I didn't know about GW2.

    Longevity is a valid concern, but I disagree with your reasoning.  They could have continued making GW1 expansions, they were very profitable.  They chose to stop and make GW2 instead.  GW2 won't follow the same model of having a standalone every 6 months, but if they continue making content for GW2 without stopping for GW3, I think we can expect there to be a lot to keep playing for.  Also keep in mind that the game itself is supposed to be huge and have an emphasis on replayability as opposed to endgame progression.

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true – you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007


  • Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by gestalt11

    Every game is overhyped.  Its the nature of the human condition, plus journalists are generally stupid and gullible.  I would go so far as to say journalists are more stupid and gullible than your average person.  They fool themselves into it so that they can have something interesting to write.  Its like a confidence game, half of the deception is your own greed motivating you to lie to yourself.

    I give no credence to people who complain about a game because its "over hyped" unless they come armed with some evidence or decent argument about the game itself.  Otherwise they are just being hypocrites and using the same bad pattern inversely.

    Would you buy a PC gamer where it said that all upcomming games will suck? I have a feeling that might hurt sales numbers.

    Hype is the thing that got many people buying a life tie sub for STO, but it really affect sensible people little, it just makes them keep their eyes a little extra on a game.

    Anyone buying a untested game have themselves to blame if it sucks. Not that I am saying that any game particular game will suck but I try out any MMO before buying it.

     

    Like I said its part of the human condition.

     

    People want to be fooled.

     

    Yes I would buy a PC gamer that said all these games sucked if it looked well reasoned.  But most people would not.

     

    The thing is both journalists and people buy in to the communal con game and then act like they weren't or even worse the journalists claim they try to be objective.  What a load.

     

    Yes its about excitement and wanting to be entertained.  It is our greed for those things that leads us all into the communal con game.  And its extremely powerful.  Because not only must we contend with our own greed, which is enough to make con games very useful in general.  But since its communal its also reinforced by people actively attacking you if you do not go along with the herd.

     

    This is what a fanboy is.  Someone who is heavily invested in their own particular communal con game. 

     

    Its all a load.  And its impossible to fight because its what people want.  No matter what they say about honesty and other stuff like that.

     

    There will never be a game or a political candidate that is not overhyped.  Because that is what people want.  That is what they demand.  It is what they will do.  And they will get actively pissed off if you mess with their fantasies.  They will call you names like "killjoy" or "troll" even if you are simply stating a fact.

    And there exists people who do the same thing but they have a negative fantasy instead of a positive one.  The "haters" think they are smart and rational but in fact are simply running their own con game but instead of the the excitment of falling in love it the excitement of hate.  Two sides of the same coin.  

     

    People want this excitement and they will bend and obscure reality to generate it.  Everything of this sort is overhyped.  Because that is what people do. 

     

    And before people start talking about how everyone else is stupid.  People know that they do it.  They know it on many levels and they compensate for it.

     

    So don't bother ruining their fun.  Or thinking you are somehow more rational.   You aren't.

     

    Saying these things are overhyped is like saying the sun is yellow.  And complaining about it is like saying it'd be much better if the sun was red.  Just empty words.

     


  • Originally posted by SuperXero89

    Originally posted by gestalt11


    Originally posted by atticusbc

    I don't know why people have such vitriolic responses to the statement that GW2 is overhyped. I don't it's usually meant in a "this game will have no redeeming features" sort of way, but rather in a "nothing is that good/if you keep your hopes this high you will be dissapointed no matter what." Like DNF. No way to live up to the hype. I think a lot of people could use the influence of Captain Downer sometimes.

    In other news: I continue to attempt to reign in my personal hype for GW2, and the internet continues to thwart that plan.

    Every game is overhyped.  Its the nature of the human condition, plus journalists are generally stupid and gullible.  I would go so far as to say journalists are more stupid and gullible than your average person.  They fool themselves into it so that they can have something interesting to write.  Its like a confidence game, half of the deception is your own greed motivating you to lie to yourself.

     

    I give no credence to people who complain about a game because its "over hyped" unless they come armed with some evidence or decent argument about the game itself.  Otherwise they are just being hypocrites and using the same bad pattern inversely.

    Every game is overhyped, but some games are still more hyped than others.  GW2, especially on this forum, is portrayed as if is the second coming of the MMORPG messiah, especially in regards to the company producing the game.  I've never seen such blind faith in a company.  It seems like every thread about Guild Wars 2 has someone virulently praising Arenanet.  Given that BioWare (another company with a stellar reputation among its customers) is also producing an MMORPG that gets shat on quite regularly and how dismissive most GW2 fans are to any criticism (ie constantly telling people they know NOTHING about GW2 or Arenanet's good business practices), I think GW2's praise just gets under people's skin.

    Of course, I think the gaming media is really just following public opinion.  About a year ago, the media was fawning all over SW:TOR and not having a lot to say about GW2.  Now that many people in MMO circles are blasting SW:TOR for being more of the same, you see that a lot in professional write-ups which is something I don't remember reading too much about for WAR or LotRO.  Similarly, GW2's rabid fanbase began touting the game as a revolution in MMO design, and likewise, professional reviewers have picked up on that and have done their job in feeding the hype.

    As far as GW2 is concerned, it's not innovation I'm worried about.  It's longevity.  Sure, the original Guild Wars is still running, but it hasn't seen a significant content update since 2007, and while it still has a playerbase, the game is laregely irrelevant to the world of multiplayer games.  Seeing as GW2 significantly reduces the leveling grind (flat leveling curve?) and has on-the-fly dynamic events rather than quests, I wonder what's going to keep me playing.

    I am a professional software developer and IMO Anet is the best design house in the MMO industry and Top 5 top implementers.

    I don't say that due to blind faith I say it because of fairly careful and knowledgable analysis.

     

    On the same token I don't believe that many of the people in these threads say the same thing I say hear for the same reasons.  Mostly because I don't think they have an appreciation for my criteria due to lack of professional experience.  And while I could explain them and they would seem plausible to some they would most likely not fully grasp the significance.

     

    But that does not make their faith blind.  Nor does it make their praise "virulent".

     

    The fact that you use the word "virulent" as an adjective says much more about your point of view than the state of the the Guild Wars 2 social gestalt.  Virulence is often defined as "as indicated by case fatality rates and/or the ability of the organism to invade the tissues of the host".

     

    You use a highly colorful word that implies both fatality, ie. harm to the truth in this case, and its ability to affect others Ie. invade the, figurative, tissue of their brain.

    Essentially claiming its propaganda.  Yet offering no reason why GW2 does not deserve the praise. 

     

    And considering that offering reason why they don't is much much easier to prove than why they should and the fact that you must do so to prove "blind" faith.  It is rather ironic that you then transfer over to criticing these people for not admiting that Bioware is also good, yet you do exactly what you accuse them of.

    This is even more ironic since no matter how good Bioware is, they have not made something in the MMO space before.  And further have tended to use already created systems.  Bioware did not create the d20 system used in Kotor.  Bioware did not create the D&D system's used in baldur's gate.  Dragon Age 1/2 and Mass Effect were their first created systems.  And neither of those are MMOs or even highly cooperative.

    Whereas Anet not only has created a world and combat system from whole cloth, they did so quite successfully and did so using foundational design parameters that other MMOs devs have failed to do and that Bioware failed to do in either of its whole cloth created systems. 

    Anet created a system that blanced far more agiliy and far better than other MMOs by adjusting their granulairy to the skill level and creating a comprhensive idea of how certain skill types should counter others.  Bioware did the same old same old and thus did not have a particularly balanced system or a system that is all that agile in either DA 1/2 or ME 1/2.

     

    Bioware is a good company.  But in my considered opinion they are not as good at the nuts and bolts of creating an RPG system as Anet are.  Perhaps they are better at story and what not.  I don't really have an opinoin there.  But there is a reason KOTOR used something Wizards of the Coast create not they themselves did.  Its because Bioware is about the RP and not so much the G.  You can tell that in ME because ME's actual gameplay parts, while cool and enjoyable for me personally, lack alot in their execution and balance.

  • Size-TwelveSize-Twelve Member UncommonPosts: 478

    This game will be big for the same reasons WoW was such a success.


    1) It's an evolution over previous games in the genre.
    They've borrowed Public Quests from Warhammer, but made them better. They've taken 3 faction PvP from DaoC. They've borrowed personal story from Bioware. They've taken the best ideas from previous RPG's and brought them together.


    2) It'll appeal to a broader audience.
    The structured PvP is more like an FPS than traditional MMO PvP. TF2 players will give it a shot. The lack of a sub will appeal to console gamers. Removing mana, adding destructible environments, and introducing dodging make it feel more like an action game than an RPG. This casts the net even further.


    3) It'll be finished.
    This game looks better, and has more content right now, than some games had at launch. The press isn't easily fooled anymore, and while GW2 probably won't be perfect at launch, it won't drive people away for lack of polish either.


    The debate over which MMO is going to be the next biggest won't stop until the games have launched, but my money is on GW2. It's doing too many things right, and word of mouth spreads fast.


  • Dream_ChaserDream_Chaser Member Posts: 1,043

    Originally posted by Happyguy83

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


    Originally posted by Lobotomist





    Hands-down GW2 PvP has been the high point of my PAX experience this year, and I have absolutely no doubts that GW2 is going to be a huge, huge game. Guild Wars 2 is the breath of fresh air that the MMO industry has sorely needed, and worthy of every bit of hype it receives.

    Where did we hear that before?

     

    WAR,TOR,STO 

     

    the list goes on.

    [citation needed]

    See... I remember people saying...

    TOR: Golly this plays a lot like WoW.

    WAR: Golly this has a clunky interface.

    STO: ... (I can recall no one talking about the PvP in STO ever.)

    My point? You're pulling acronyms out of your heiney apropos of and in relation to nothing. Anyone can do that. Why, my good industry friends Mr. Wigglehiggins and Mr. Buckleheimer, both of whom have PhDs as Critics, completely diagree with you. Of course, I cannot say that my statement has anything to do with reality, but neither can you about yours.

    (Typos!)

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by gestalt11

    This is even more ironic since no matter how good Bioware is, they have not made something in the MMO space before.  And further have tended to use already created systems.  Bioware did not create the d20 system used in Kotor.  Bioware did not create the D&D system's used in baldur's gate.  Dragon Age 1/2 and Mass Effect were their first created systems.  And neither of those are MMOs or even highly cooperative.

    Whereas Anet not only has created a world and combat system from whole cloth, they did so quite successfully and did so using foundational design parameters that other MMOs devs have failed to do and that Bioware failed to do in either of its whole cloth created systems. 

    Anet created a system that blanced far more agiliy and far better than other MMOs by adjusting their granulairy to the skill level and creating a comprhensive idea of how certain skill types should counter others.  Bioware did the same old same old and thus did not have a particularly balanced system or a system that is all that agile in either DA 1/2 or ME 1/2.

     Bioware is a good company.  But in my considered opinion they are not as good at the nuts and bolts of creating an RPG system as Anet are.  Perhaps they are better at story and what not.  I don't really have an opinoin there.  But there is a reason KOTOR used something Wizards of the Coast create not they themselves did.  Its because Bioware is about the RP and not so much the G.  You can tell that in ME because ME's actual gameplay parts, while cool and enjoyable for me personally, lack alot in their execution and balance.

    I'm going to play devil's advocate here in order to bring some balance to the argument.

    1. Blizzard and Verant/SOE were new to the MMORPG genre as well, yet they created 2 of the most successful MMORPG's, if not the most successful/renowned MMORPG's around in MMO history.

    2. One could argue that creating a second MMO has been more prone to failure and a shadow of the first MMO than when companies created their 1st MMO, as can be seen with SOE (EQ2), Mythic (WAR), Cryptic (CO/STO), Richard Garriott (Tabula Rasa). I'm not saying that GW2 will be a shadow of GW, but if you want to look at 1st tries and 2nd tries and history, then this is the argument that counters any such statements.

    3. GW wasn't really an MMORPG, it was a CORPG. So, GW2 will be ANet's 1st big step into AAA MMO's as well.

    4. Of all the companies that went into making MMORPG's, BW has come closest to making a game that came closest to an MMORPG. Neverwinter Nights can be considered as the singleplayer RPG that has come closest to a player made MMORPG world, with its excellent tooling sets that caused multiplayer online RPG's to happen on player run world servers that are still running to date, with as good as 100-200 people who could play it, with other gamers and GM's being able to be a dungeon master realtime on the fly.

     

    As for taking bold steps and going their own way, BW went ahead and made an action RPG with shooter based mechanics in ME, that still used non-shooter 'magic' skills in the form of bionics.

    Also, BW could have made another BG sequel, or KOTOR 3, or NWN3, just like a lot of other big and successful companies are doing (Halo, MW, etc etc). Yet they went ahead and started different projects that weren't sequels of their former successful games at all, with a Jade Empire, Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins. And that was next to a big risky project like SWTOR, their 1st MMO, as well.

     

    Just highlighting the other side of the coin, my own opinion is somewhere more balanced in the middle, I think both ANet and BW have their proven merits in various areas image

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • sonoggisonoggi Member Posts: 1,119

    sure, BW has a great portfolio, but to be honest, the guys and girls who have built the game from scratch are a little bit behind the times. this is why we're not seeing any "revolutionary" things in TOR. you could tell from the start, and as more and more impressions come out, the concensus is pretty much that if you want more of the same old, standard MMO, TOR will satisfy.

    this is far off from the conclusion that TOR will be successful in the long run. just because the genre is so stangant and so full of jaded gamers, it's my opinion that future MMO's must bring something fresh to the table. therefore, while i do have faith that TOR will be a quality multiplayer RPG, i do not see a reason to celebrate its future success like i do with GW2.

  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Member UncommonPosts: 2,341

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by gestalt11



    This is even more ironic since no matter how good Bioware is, they have not made something in the MMO space before.  And further have tended to use already created systems.  Bioware did not create the d20 system used in Kotor.  Bioware did not create the D&D system's used in baldur's gate.  Dragon Age 1/2 and Mass Effect were their first created systems.  And neither of those are MMOs or even highly cooperative.

    Whereas Anet not only has created a world and combat system from whole cloth, they did so quite successfully and did so using foundational design parameters that other MMOs devs have failed to do and that Bioware failed to do in either of its whole cloth created systems. 

    Anet created a system that blanced far more agiliy and far better than other MMOs by adjusting their granulairy to the skill level and creating a comprhensive idea of how certain skill types should counter others.  Bioware did the same old same old and thus did not have a particularly balanced system or a system that is all that agile in either DA 1/2 or ME 1/2.

     Bioware is a good company.  But in my considered opinion they are not as good at the nuts and bolts of creating an RPG system as Anet are.  Perhaps they are better at story and what not.  I don't really have an opinoin there.  But there is a reason KOTOR used something Wizards of the Coast create not they themselves did.  Its because Bioware is about the RP and not so much the G.  You can tell that in ME because ME's actual gameplay parts, while cool and enjoyable for me personally, lack alot in their execution and balance.

    I'm going to play devil's advocate here in order to bring some balance to the argument.

    1. Blizzard and Verant/SOE were new to the MMORPG genre as well, yet they created 2 of the most successful MMORPG's, if not the most successful/renowned MMORPG's around in MMO history.

    2. One could argue that creating a second MMO has been more prone to failure and a shadow of the first MMO than when companies created their 1st MMO, as can be seen with SOE (EQ2), Mythic (WAR), Cryptic (CO/STO), Richard Garriott (Tabula Rasa). I'm not saying that GW2 will be a shadow of GW, but if you want to look at 1st tries and 2nd tries and history, then this is the argument that counters any such statements.

    3. GW wasn't really an MMORPG, it was a CORPG. So, GW2 will be ANet's 1st big step into AAA MMO's as well.

    The only thing separating GW from a typical MMO (besides the unique style of gameplay with energy management and an open-ended skill system) is that it was heavily instanced and co-op rather than an open world. So that GW2 is technically their first 'true' MMO doesn't mean they don't have the experience relevant to make an MMO.

    4. Of all the companies that went into making MMORPG's, BW has come closest to making a game that came closest to an MMORPG. Neverwinter Nights can be considered as the singleplayer RPG that has come closest to a player made MMORPG world, with its excellent tooling sets that caused multiplayer online RPG's to happen on player run world servers that are still running to date, with as good as 100-200 people who could play it, with other gamers and GM's being able to be a dungeon master realtime on the fly.

     This part confuses me, since by this logic you're basically invalidating the point you were trying to make in #3. While player-created content was a great feature, that's not really relevant to the discussion of whether or not Bioware is ready for an MMO, especially considering that the player-made content (particularly for NwN2) is widely considered superior to the content Bioware themselves made. They were also going by a pre-made d20 system that was already established and successful; they basically took an existing story and worked it around someone else's system. Which is perfectly fine, I never minded that, NWN1/2 to this day stay installed on my computer. Anet, on the other hand, built something from the ground up that was unique to them, and made it work. Side note: I agree with you, but I just think this point extends to Anet as well.

    As for taking bold steps and going their own way, BW went ahead and made an action RPG with shooter based mechanics in ME, that still used non-shooter 'magic' skills in the form of bionics.

    Also, BW could have made another BG sequel, or KOTOR 3, or NWN3, just like a lot of other big and successful companies are doing (Halo, MW, etc etc). Yet they went ahead and started different projects that weren't sequels of their former successful games at all, with a Jade Empire, Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins. And that was next to a big risky project like SWTOR, their 1st MMO, as well.

     

    Just highlighting the other side of the coin, my own opinion is somewhere more balanced in the middle, I think both ANet and BW have their proven merits in various areas image

    While I think Bioware will do a fair enough job with SWTOR, they are not in Anet's league when it comes to creating a unique MMO environment even though they're technically both making their first one. Technically. They've both made solid co-op games that would hold up very well in an open-world setting, but weren't open-world due to vision and/or engine constraints. The difference is one stuck to existing systems, the other took a road less-traveled and made it work. The latter, in my opinion, is far superior in terms of learning experience than the former.

    As for people saying that Bioware will faulter with SWTOR because their success with NWN/Kotor/whatever was based on an existing system, the system of SWTOR is heavily built around already existing and successful MMO traditions and systems, just as NWN was. So, that argument doesn't really hold up. If that's your definition of their success, then they're essentially recreating that, so wouldn't that make it MORE likely they'll do well?

    "Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  • sonoggisonoggi Member Posts: 1,119

    Originally posted by Size-Twelve

    2) It'll appeal to a broader audience.

    The structured PvP is more like an FPS than traditional MMO PvP. TF2 players will give it a shot.

     

    this. tbh, BW could have done better in this department. TOR does not have the potential to bring players from different genres together.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by gaeanprayer

     This part confuses me, since by this logic you're basically invalidating the point you were trying to make in #3.

    It isn't really invalidating: I was presenting counter arguments.

    The poster I replied upon said ANet had extensive expertise in making MMORPG's. I pointed out that the ANet people themselves described their only other game they made as a 'CORPG', plus if you consider GW to be an MMORPG (personally, I do even if ANet and some other ppl tagged it differently) then it's still good to keep in mind that the success rate of MMO companies for their 1st MMORPG seems to be higher than for their 2nd MMO.

    Also, the poster said that BW had no experience at all with MMORPG's, the same applied to Blizzard and Verant (see argument about 1st and 2nd MMO's), next to that BW made an RPG that went beyond a singleplayer RPG, one that came close to a (player made) MMORPG and which had the tech to support it.

     

    While I think Bioware will do a fair enough job with SWTOR, they are not in Anet's league when it comes to creating a unique MMO environment even though they're technically both making their first one. Technically. They've both made solid co-op games that would hold up very well in an open-world setting, but weren't open-world due to vision and/or engine constraints. The difference is one stuck to existing systems, the other took a road less-traveled and made it work. The latter, in my opinion, is far superior in terms of learning experience than the former.

    The difference is that both chose a different design path, which one will be successful, only time will tell, but I'm of the school of thought that there can be various different design models and game development philosophies that can all be successful in their own way, for the very simple reason that of a large mass of people there can be a variety of tastes and preferences within that mass, even 1 person alone can have different things appeal to him/her: I like a burger, but I also like sushi or a 5 course French cuisine, I like coffee, but also a beer or cola or tea, depending upon circumstances and mood.

    Before WoW, you also had an UO, EQ, AC, and DAoC that were all doing alright in their own way. I expect a sortlike situation to arise again in the next few years, with several strong titles existing at the top next to each other.

     


    Originally posted by sonoggi

    Originally posted by Size-Twelve



    2) It'll appeal to a broader audience.

    The structured PvP is more like an FPS than traditional MMO PvP. TF2 players will give it a shot.

     this. tbh, BW could have done better in this department. TOR does not have the potential to bring players from different genres together.

    Shrug. Gut feeling speculations, nothing more to it than that.

    Only time will tell what appeals more to whom, but speaking for SWTOR, it has its own fun PvP arenas in the Warzones, plus in contrast to GW2 it has open world PvP that doesn't happen in a separate realm, and on top of that it has its own strategic/RvR like structured PvP. As for the whole 'bringing players from different genres together', another assumption, SWTOR has its own features that can bring non-MMO gamers to it, as seen in a lot of people who'd shown interest in playing SWTOR on conventions and such who were not really into MMO's before.

    I could start to sum up what other new MMO's like TSW, AA and TERA bring to the table as well, but it seems that every discussion seems to go about GW2 vs SWTOR (very few people think in terms of 'GW2 and SWTOR', but ok, guess that's the nature of the beast, as they say), so I'll leave it at this.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628


    Originally posted by sonoggi
    sure, BW has a great portfolio, but to be honest, the guys and girls who have built the game from scratch are a little bit behind the times. this is why we're not seeing any "revolutionary" things in TOR. you could tell from the start, and as more and more impressions come out, the concensus is pretty much that if you want more of the same old, standard MMO, TOR will satisfy.
    this is far off from the conclusion that TOR will be successful in the long run. just because the genre is so stangant and so full of jaded gamers, it's my opinion that future MMO's must bring something fresh to the table. therefore, while i do have faith that TOR will be a quality multiplayer RPG, i do not see a reason to celebrate its future success like i do with GW2.

    The only jaded MMO gamers I see are over zealous GW2 fans. They cling to it like its the only lifeboat on a sinking ship. Meanwhile, theres about 10 million content MMO gamers hanging out on the beach wondering wtf those kids are yelling about.

    Oh I know, GW2 is breaking all the rules so if we dont like it, we must be blind, stubborn, slaves to the grind right?

    Ive been playing mmos for a long ass time. Been playing video games since the 70s. I see a lot of people on this forum complain about gear treadmills, raid or die, grinding their brains out, cant find a tank/healer in time, spamming two buttons in combat, getting ganked etc. So Anet comes along and their solution to all of the "strife" is to literally remove it from the game. And people sing free at last.

    But what I find odd is that Ive been playing most of the same mmos as you guys for the past ten years or so and I can honestly say I havent had any of the problems you guys have been having since oh about 2002. How is that possible? Its pretty simple really. You play a game the way you want to play. Especially in an mmo. Some of you guys are hopelessly bound to the rules of the game. And I feel kind of bad for you. If you dont want to do something in an mmo, then dont do it. If it makes it too hard to play, dont play it. If you cant find anything fun, walk away.

    You can build up GW2 in your mind and make it out to be the perfect game. But its not going to save you from yourself. You have to choose that. Its something that you couldve done years ago. You never had to chase that carrot on a stick. I havent done that in almost a decade. But if it takes Anet to make a game where they literally remove the carrot from the game for you to feel released, then by all means, embrace it. Just try to understand that a lot of us, the majority of us are already playing mmos because we have a lot of fun. So your epiphany may be new to you, but not to me. And Im sure a lot of others that are able to play current style mmos and have a good time.


  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135

    I've gotta say, I appreciate you trying to offer a counter-argument MMO.Maverick. It tends to make people more open minded. That said, a few of your points contradict themselves.  This, of itself should say something.  Mainly, it appears equally true that BOTH companies are taking their 1st step into creating a 'true MMO'. While both companies have a good track record for games, Anet seems to have shown a more impressive ability at creating games from the ground-up; while Bioware has more games under it's belt.

    I think the whole discussion of GW2 vs. SWTOR is pretty ludicrous, though. The differences between the games seems fairly blatant to most people who are able to think for themselves. The games aren't really even competing with one another. Both have a lot of hype (though SWTOR has more at this time), and they are being released at very different times. All Bioware has to do is release their product, and make sure it stays fun. All Anet has to do is keep doing what their doing, and release a polished product (not rushing a release). In a way, both games are competing with themselves. They both have a good chance of being a success, and they both only really have themselves to blame for any failures. This is the first time in a long time, when the two hottest MMOs being released aren't in direct competition with one another. You'd think people would be happy about that.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by aesperus

    I think the whole discussion of GW2 vs. SWTOR is pretty ludicrous, though. The differences between the games seems fairly blatant to most people who are able to think for themselves. 

    They both have a good chance of being a success, and they both only really have themselves to blame for any failures. This is the first time in a long time, when the two hottest MMOs being released aren't in direct competition with one another. You'd think people would be happy about that.

    This.

    Although I question the 'direct competition' argument - in a way every MMO competes with the others, but true, it isn't a direct or hard competition bc of the different flavor and payment model - the rest of your comments I completely agree with image

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • KillyoxKillyox Member CommonPosts: 424

    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    Originally posted by gestalt11


    Originally posted by atticusbc

    I don't know why people have such vitriolic responses to the statement that GW2 is overhyped. I don't it's usually meant in a "this game will have no redeeming features" sort of way, but rather in a "nothing is that good/if you keep your hopes this high you will be dissapointed no matter what." Like DNF. No way to live up to the hype. I think a lot of people could use the influence of Captain Downer sometimes.

    In other news: I continue to attempt to reign in my personal hype for GW2, and the internet continues to thwart that plan.

    Every game is overhyped.  Its the nature of the human condition, plus journalists are generally stupid and gullible.  I would go so far as to say journalists are more stupid and gullible than your average person.  They fool themselves into it so that they can have something interesting to write.  Its like a confidence game, half of the deception is your own greed motivating you to lie to yourself.

     

    I give no credence to people who complain about a game because its "over hyped" unless they come armed with some evidence or decent argument about the game itself.  Otherwise they are just being hypocrites and using the same bad pattern inversely.

    Every game is overhyped, but some games are still more hyped than others.  GW2, especially on this forum, is portrayed as if is the second coming of the MMORPG messiah, especially in regards to the company producing the game.  I've never seen such blind faith in a company.

    This makes my giggle. Unlike SWTOR, GW2 had already thousands or tens of thousands players playing it hands down and even after that most of the players [even haters] say the game is incredible. How many people exactly played SWTOR hands on on conventions? BW has demo stations to show it themselves to the public. So what is exactly "blind faith" in GW2? That everything they say is already in the game and seen by tens of thousands? lol

    It seems like every thread about Guild Wars 2 has someone virulently praising Arenanet.  Given that BioWare (another company with a stellar reputation among its customers) is also producing an MMORPG that gets shat on quite regularly and how dismissive most GW2 fans are to any criticism (ie constantly telling people they know NOTHING about GW2 or Arenanet's good business practices), I think GW2's praise just gets under people's skin.

    It is PRECISELY because most haters dont have any idea about GW2. They come here hate on the game by making new thread while they even dont have ounce of info about it. Yes we dismiss such opinions from uninformed posters. Why shouldnt we?

    Of course, I think the gaming media is really just following public opinion.  About a year ago, the media was fawning all over SW:TOR and not having a lot to say about GW2.  

    What gaming media you were reading lol ? There is a reason why GW2 snatched away mmo prizes from SWTOR year ago. That is only reason why SWTOR got any mmo prizes this year because GW2 got them eyar before and couldnt get them again.

    Now that many people in MMO circles are blasting SW:TOR for being more of the same, you see that a lot in professional write-ups which is something I don't remember reading too much about for WAR or LotRO.  Similarly, GW2's rabid fanbase began touting the game as a revolution in MMO design, and likewise, professional reviewers have picked up on that and have done their job in feeding the hype.

    Except as pointed before many of those "rabid fans" as you call them have played the game personally. More people played GW2 than SWTOR and even after that GW2 has less shit to it than TOR. Also GW2 releases a lot more information about a lot more things in regard to the game and also only when they are in the game already.

    As far as GW2 is concerned, it's not innovation I'm worried about.  It's longevity.  Sure, the original Guild Wars is still running, but it hasn't seen a significant content update since 2007, and while it still has a playerbase, the game is laregely irrelevant to the world of multiplayer games.  

    GW1 gets content updates all the time

    Seeing as GW2 significantly reduces the leveling grind (flat leveling curve?) and has on-the-fly dynamic events rather than quests, I wonder what's going to keep me playing.

    Fun. That is why people play games. If i can get that awesome looking armor i want this is some part of "endgame". Also in WoW u just raid.... for loot or enounters? If encounters it will be 100 times better in gw2. If for loot, well maybe play diablo 2 or 3 when i releases since numbers might excite you?

  • GwingGwing Member Posts: 85

    srry but if tGW2 plays like GW one did i wont even bother to look at this game...did NOT liek the instanced cities and non instanced world feel...felt liek i was playing a 1995 RPG...PvP also dosnt intrest me as much as Story does, so this gam better haev a dam good story cuz i need sumthign to draw me in not shappy looks and suspected "innovation"

    STORY is by FAR more inportant that anything else in a video game, i dont liek to be thrown into a game  that i have to put the story together like a freaking chineez puzzle...now square soft always had Epic great story lines to there games but recently i have become VERY dissapointed in them...lets hope this game has a decent story line so it dont fall flat on its face...

    heck a game could have a port that plugs you the player directly in the game world and its still woudnt intrest me if the story aint worth a wooden nickle....

    STORY FTW

     

    STORY > ANYTHING ELSE

     

    Its just me but i have a bad feelign about this game...sumthing bad is abrewing with it and when its realesed...dont knwo what it is but i had it with Aion, Rift and MO n well look at them now...Aion is a joke, Rift is fighting for its life and MO well enough said if u dont know how bad it is then god help u!

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