Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

We trying to get rid of "Quest"! But arent we forgetting the main reason the Quest System was introd

MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,407

One of the replies in the "Instancing shouldn't be a dirty word." thread made me realize something.

At first, MMO didnt have Quest.



WELL



If thats the case,, Why was a Questing system introduced in the first place? what were developers trying to solve with the Quest system



Quest system was added to allow all players to experience PvE lore and Contents, rather than those that play most of the time, or happen to be in the right place at the right time for events to take place.



But Quest seem to have become unfavorable over the years.



So we decide to get rid of them all together. But wouldnt that put us back in the same situation we were in before, which made developers consider adding the Questing Formula in the first place?



Are we really solving a problem by getting rid of Quest,,, more so than we creating a new problem?

Philosophy of MMO Game Design

«13

Comments

  • JimmacJimmac Member UncommonPosts: 1,660

    I'm trying to find even one point you made in your post where you don't grossly misrepresent something. I am failing.

  • sk8chalifsk8chalif Member UncommonPosts: 666

    well i dunno with game ur talking about but from far has i know we are not getting rid of quest but simply presenting them differently

    image
    ~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~

  • VryheidVryheid Member UncommonPosts: 469

    The problem is generic, low quality quests that feel more like an exercise routine (do four reps of killing 20 bats, drink your mana potions every 30 mins) or being a delivery guy rather than an actual adventure. Playing through Earth Eternal reminded me how devs have a long way to go before they start consistently making a good portion of their game content entertaining.

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    We had quests in RPGs even before MMORPGs.  They just weren't called that.

     

    Start here ----->  talk to NPC -----> door opens ----> follow road, do something ---> talk to next NPC (repeat)

     

    Half-Life for example:  "They're waiting for you Gordon.  In the test chamber."

     

    Quests still exist even in games that are changing the mechanics.  Hopefully they'll be more entertaining than go kill 10 rats.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Originally posted by marinrider

    Originally posted by mrcalhou

    It's an MMOExposed post; I've come to expect that kind of thing.

    I'm with calhou.  Once I discover that MMOExposed is the OP I generally stop reading the main point right there as it seems to be just random stuff that this guy makes up to increase his post count.  

    Take this one for example, I dont understand why he thinks we are getting rid of questing.  Thats the opposite of what games are trying to do.  

    "Getting rid of" is a bit strong.  Some of the new games are trying different mechanics like dynamic events to provide activity and reward without the typical questing.  If anything games like SW:TOR GW2 are trying to improve questing.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • skeaserskeaser Member RarePosts: 4,227

    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

    We had quests in RPGs even before MMORPGs.  They just weren't called that.

     

    Start here ----->  talk to NPC -----> door opens ----> follow road, do something ---> talk to next NPC (repeat)

     

    Half-Life for example:  "They're waiting for you Gordon.  In the test chamber."

     

    Quests still exist even in games that are changing the mechanics.  Hopefully they'll be more entertaining than go kill 10 rats.

    I miss the EQ system, I really do.

    "Hail, NPC-dude!"

    "Hey adventurer have you heard about the [ruckus]?"

    "What ruckus?"

    "Seems the bad guys have stirred up quite a fight over in that zone that-a-way, the [good guys] need some help."

    "Who are the good guys?"

    "Oh, they're the knights of holy, talk to General Dragonsbane at their encampment near the border to offer your sword"

     

    Just seemed so much better than a glowing punctuation mark and a 1-sided story from every NPC...

    Sig so that badges don't eat my posts.


  • AntariousAntarious Member UncommonPosts: 2,848

    Well I didn't play M59 or NwN on AOL so I am trying to figure out exactly when the OP is talking about.

     

    Quests may include lore but they were not created for that purpose.

     

    Ultima Online didn't have quests in the early days.   It had an Interest team which was made up on per shard volunteers.   Which had an IGM "interest game master" as a go between.    There were a few IGM's and many many volunteers.   I know this simply because I was on the interest team.   So you had people creating shard unique live events (quests) in real time.   Ultima lore in a sense was off limits to the volunteers because it needed approval.   So their events were more generic and the IGM's ran events that dealt directly with specific lore.   So UO actually did have quests in a much more alive sense than most any game today.

     

    Everquest had quests...  hell most all of the crazy "camp this place holder and hope named spawns" ... were part of quests to get one item or another.

     

    In this sense quests used to be unique and served very specific purposes.   You could even say it was "cool" when you found one.

     

    What we had in most games (besides uo) were camps and grinding.   The quest system simply replaced camp grinding with quest grinding.   So at least some percentage of people who used to love quests now simply hate them.   Best of all is like playing Rift and you are entirely ready to leave a zone.   You have run up the hill for 100th time and returned and you just know the next quest will send you somewhere new.   Instead you turn in the quest and 20 more little golden ! pop up all around you... then you realize you are in hell ..  and you know this because you are not riding through a green field alone with the sun on your face  <- ya I thought it was funny /shrug.   Instead you are surrounded by 200 other people who just turned in the same quest and typed:   WTF!!!

     

     

    So OP.. sorry I don't really know what you are talking about but it seems pretty much to tranlate to +1 !!!!

  • cali59cali59 Member Posts: 1,634

    People who haven't yet watched this video really should.  It's about GW2's dynamic events and it traces the history of content in MMOs from MUDs through hunting, quests, and public quests.

    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing_Guild_Wars_2_Dynamic_Events

    it's long, but it's awesome and has a 30 minute Q&A at the end.

     

    As someone who went from EQ to WoW, quests were an absolute revelation to me, because it meant that leveling could be done without just sitting in one spot camping mobs.  However, over time the limitations of quests have become apparent.  You have to read a wall of text, it's a pain to be on different stages of a quest than your friend, and also that what is being discussed in the quest isn't actually happening, just mobs off in some field.

    Things like PQs, rifts, SWTOR's voiced branching story and DEs are trying to address these limitations in various ways.  In other words, they're trying to take quests and expand them even further.  Not trying to get rid of them and go back to just camping spawns.

    (though I'm sure there are people on this site who would absolutely love that)

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true – you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Originally posted by skeaser

     

    I miss the EQ system, I really do.

    "Hail, NPC-dude!"

    "Hey adventurer have you heard about the [ruckus]?"

    "What ruckus?"

    "Seems the bad guys have stirred up quite a fight over in that zone that-a-way, the [good guys] need some help."

    "Who are the good guys?"

    "Oh, they're the knights of holy, talk to General Dragonsbane at their encampment near the border to offer your sword"

     

    Just seemed so much better than a glowing punctuation mark and a 1-sided story from every NPC...

    Related comment:

     

    I really like fast clean easy to read dialogue from NPCs.  Anymore it's a freakin' book that I just skip anyway because the devs think I have nothing better to do than read game text.

    The dialog above sounds great!


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • CeridithCeridith Member UncommonPosts: 2,980

    I was perfectly happy in MMOs before quests existed. I could choose what, where, how, and best of all, why I was doing what I want in an MMO.. Then again, I had a hell of a lot more options, and combat was the only aspect of the game.

    Oh, how I miss Ultima Online in it's hay day... and SWG... but hey I'm a sandbox kinda guy.

    But back to the point, I think it's just the general mentality of a lot of gamers. They don't have the drive or initiative to make their own gameplay decisions. Drop them in a world full of possibility and freedom, and they complain that there's nothing to do unless you explicitly tell them what they need to be doing -- aka leading players by the nose with quests.

    I don't think quests are inherently a bad thing, and I believe they have their place. However, I strongly believe that the questing mechanic is entirely too overused and overrelied upon by developers. It should be used sparingly and reserved for long and involved tasks. The quest mechanic should not be used as a checklist to be completed from hub to hub as the players pushed down a narrow path of content.

  • rissiesrissies Member Posts: 161

    I'm fine with quests, they've just been dumbed down a lot ~ so they content is limited to a few types of scenarios and their main challenge is basically either the patience it takes to kill 1000 thingies (at worst imo) or just not dying (better, but it's kinda cheap to only use high level mob levels to create a challenge) ~ or inbetween (basically no challenge at all and you're done in a couple minutes)

    And I am guilty as hell of taking advantage of dumbed down quest systems, because if there's quest auto-routing? I will use it. I will use te hell out of it.

    I think, oddly enough, Maplestory has a good (though underused) thing going with it's jump quests. They can be annoying as hell, but they can definitely offer a certain amount of challenge (and frustration, and tears) ~ and I think it would be nice if more mmorrpgs had platformer-style side-quests. Not an entire game built around them, but here and there.

    Another quest style that would offer challenge, but would likely be limited to more "niche" games, would be getting rid of quest icons and the simple summary (go kill x many of the x's over by x) and instead have players be given a problem/situation from NPCs and then try to figure out the correct solution (what's needed and what to do with the what and where to get them) ~ and shifting them on a regular basis as well. So maybe the grocer was running low on oil on monday, but on tuesday everything';s fine with him, move on, but next sunday he's being needy again. Eventually patterns and walkthroughs would emerge, but as I said..it would be pretty niche, since it's basically the same as old RPGs (which were pretty niche even in their heyday) ~ so I think a lot of players wouldn't want to spoil it by cheating.

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Any of you play Oblivion?

     

    I thought the questing system in that was extraordinarily well done.  Even on some of the simple ones.

     

    Her:  I'm broke and in dire need of money to pay *something*.  My father died in a battle in a cave not far from here.  Do you think you can go get his sword so I can sell it?

    Me: Sure I'm on it.

     

    Fight into the cave, grab the sword, come back and give her money instead of the sword so I can keep it as a weapon.

     

    The Black Hand quest chain was awesome too.  I had no clue the story had twisted and I was killing my bosses companions.  He was soooo pissed when he found me.

     

    If devs can do quests this good, WTH do we still have stupid go kill 10 rats.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • BelgaraathBelgaraath Member UncommonPosts: 3,205

    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

    Any of you play Oblivion?

     

    I thought the questing system in that was extraordinarily well done.  Even on some of the simple ones.

     

    Her:  I'm broke and in dire need of money to pay *something*.  My father died in a battle in a cave not far from here.  Do you think you can go get his sword so I can sell it?

    Me: Sure I'm on it.

     

    Fight into the cave, grab the sword, come back and give her money instead of the sword so I can keep it as a weapon.

     

    The Black Hand quest chain was awesome too.  I had no clue the story had twisted and I was killing my bosses companions.  He was soooo pissed when he found me.

     

    If devs can do quests this good, WTH do we still have stupid go kill 10 rats.

    Funny you should ask. Thats EXACTLY what I am doing right now lol. I installed a Mod to slow down the leveling and make the NPC leveling more realistic and I love it. This is my FAVORITE type of game and I love the feel of not needing to do most things in any particular order. I just think for an MMO to do this, its going to have the same problem as Age of Conan. Everyone will need to upgrade their PCs to handle the enormous processing power this type of game online would require. Maybe in 2030. One can hope, right? lol.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Originally posted by keithian

     

    Funny you should ask. Thats EXACTLY what I am doing right now lol. I installed a Mod to slow down the leveling and make the NPC leveling more realistic and I love it. This is my FAVORITE type of game and I love the feel of not needing to do most things in any particular order. I just think for an MMO to do this, its going to have the same problem as Age of Conan. Everyone will need to upgrade their PCs to handle the enormous processing power this type of game online would require. Maybe in 2030. One can hope, right? lol.

    Give me a few years.  I'm obligated to make WAC linear, simply because I have 3 1/2 years in development and have to produce a working game soon.

    I'd love to do a MW Ob clone in an MMO.  Biggest issue I have is their design leans closer to sandbox than themepark and UO and the sandboxes that followed it pushed the bar so high that a small dev trying to create one is up against an unachievable goal to match the desired feature set.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • Biggus99Biggus99 Member Posts: 916

    Originally posted by skeaser

    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

    We had quests in RPGs even before MMORPGs.  They just weren't called that.

     

    Start here ----->  talk to NPC -----> door opens ----> follow road, do something ---> talk to next NPC (repeat)

     

    Half-Life for example:  "They're waiting for you Gordon.  In the test chamber."

     

    Quests still exist even in games that are changing the mechanics.  Hopefully they'll be more entertaining than go kill 10 rats.

    I miss the EQ system, I really do.

    "Hail, NPC-dude!"

    "Hey adventurer have you heard about the [ruckus]?"

    "What ruckus?"

    "Seems the bad guys have stirred up quite a fight over in that zone that-a-way, the [good guys] need some help."

    "Who are the good guys?"

    "Oh, they're the knights of holy, talk to General Dragonsbane at their encampment near the border to offer your sword"

     

    Just seemed so much better than a glowing punctuation mark and a 1-sided story from every NPC...

     

    Yeah, but unfortunately the rest of the game sucked balls.  I don't need to have my hand held, but I also don't need to dick around for half an hour talking to every npc just in the hope one will throw me a bone and send me somewhere.  I have a limited amount of playing time every day, as most MMO gamers have.  We'd prefer to actually doing it questing, not looking for a quest.  

  • jinxxed0jinxxed0 Member UncommonPosts: 841

    No one wants to get rid of them, we want them updated. Guild Wars 2 seems to have done that. Not everygame needs dynamic events, but they also need to stop using outdated/unevolved systems that just don't work anymore. Well, they work for people playing by themselves sometimes, but people seem to want to group again. Even somthing like the matrix online or City of heroes would be great. In CoH th team leader would get a list of everyone's quest (missions) and could pick one and everyone would see the marker for it. If games would do something as simple as that, then maybe people wouldn't rag on quests so much

  • NightAngellNightAngell Member Posts: 566
    Originally posted by Biggus99


    Originally posted by skeaser


    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG


    We had quests in RPGs even before MMORPGs.  They just weren't called that.
     
    Start here ----->  talk to NPC -----> door opens ----> follow road, do something ---> talk to next NPC (repeat)
     
    Half-Life for example:  "They're waiting for you Gordon.  In the test chamber."
     
    Quests still exist even in games that are changing the mechanics.  Hopefully they'll be more entertaining than go kill 10 rats.

    I miss the EQ system, I really do.

    "Hail, NPC-dude!"

    "Hey adventurer have you heard about the [ruckus]?"

    "What ruckus?"

    "Seems the bad guys have stirred up quite a fight over in that zone that-a-way, the [good guys] need some help."

    "Who are the good guys?"

    "Oh, they're the knights of holy, talk to General Dragonsbane at their encampment near the border to offer your sword"

     

    Just seemed so much better than a glowing punctuation mark and a 1-sided story from every NPC...

     

    Yeah, but unfortunately the rest of the game sucked balls.  I don't need to have my hand held, but I also don't need to dick around for half an hour talking to every npc just in the hope one will throw me a bone and send me somewhere.  I have a limited amount of playing time every day, as most MMO gamers have.  We'd prefer to actually doing it questing, not looking for a quest.  

    Yeah right if you say so..

    EQ was the number one MMO before WOW came along. Most gamer or MMO players may feel like that now but back then those playing EQ had no problem with it. You must of came late to the EQ party or you must be 50 years old. Ten+ years ago most people playing EQ had plenty of time on their hands.

     

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy Member UncommonPosts: 2,053

    I'm trying to understand what exactly is the OP trying to point out here.

    Also I'm waiting for the day that he just posts the whole subject into the thread title.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,407
    To elaborate : we are moving away from Questing with Sandbox MMO featuring questlessness. Wasn't that a major feature of Darkfall? Also we moving away from questing with Dynamic Events replacing questing. Since it isn't triggered like traditional quest are, it basically brings back the original problem that Traditional questing system were meant to solve.

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • SupersoupsSupersoups Member Posts: 1,004

    If GW2 is getting rid of questing and replacing it with DE doesn't mean MMOS in general are getting rid of questing. Anet is trying to experiment so good for them but quests are here to stay. if you look at the upcoming titles they all have quests, they might not be the same traditional questing you are used to but it is there.

    image

  • BTrayaLBTrayaL Member UncommonPosts: 624

    Another useless, pointless, nonsensical thread, made because he can.

    Trying to get rid of quests? Really? This is the thing that keeps you awake at night?

    Not even a minuscule portion of MMO players feel that way..

    Congrats on consolidating you reputation, MMOExposed.

    image
  • RequiamerRequiamer Member Posts: 2,034

    Mmo always had quests, but at first it wasn't developer scripted quest, but player made quest, you also had Gm that would create quest for the communities.

  • LobotomistLobotomist Member EpicPosts: 5,981

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    One of the replies in the "Instancing shouldn't be a dirty word." thread made me realize something.

    At first, MMO didnt have Quest.



    WELL



    If thats the case,, Why was a Questing system introduced in the first place? what were developers trying to solve with the Quest system



    Quest system was added to allow all players to experience PvE lore and Contents, rather than those that play most of the time, or happen to be in the right place at the right time for events to take place.



    But Quest seem to have become unfavorable over the years.



    So we decide to get rid of them all together. But wouldnt that put us back in the same situation we were in before, which made developers consider adding the Questing Formula in the first place?



    Are we really solving a problem by getting rid of Quest,,, more so than we creating a new problem?

    You see , sometimes people can simply be wrong.

     

    Like in 60 they thought using Asbestos to line the walls of public schools was a good idea.

     

    And in MMO they thought Quests are good way to solve the fact that old MMOs didnt have no reason to go and just do you thing - they would give you a reason.

    But now we know that old MMOs were actually better , and that no quests = sandbox / do what you will. Opposed to quests = amusement park , hand holding.

     

     

     

     

     



  • xKingdomxxKingdomx Member UncommonPosts: 1,541

    Well personally, there is nothing wrong with the idea of quest. all games contains the idea of 'quest', its just the way MMOG does things make players feel like mentally retarded. At its basics, quest is the idea that presents the players a challenge to overcome, this idea is still apparent in GW2's dynamic events system, but it provides the impact of change and lets players to have a choice in doing things.

    Great games isn't about making something orginal, but to make things great. Quest is a system that is very viable, but in MMOG case, it needs to provide a variety in gameplay, not the same thing over and over again. Crystals don't just lie on the floor for you to collect. Enemies don't just wander around burnt down building waiting to be sitting duck for you. But apparently 90% of devlopers don't understand that.

    Take Deus Ex as a very recent example. You can either man up and shoot through the entire enemy base, but also able to stealth and let everyone unharm, it is this freedom that makes things interesting, but MMOG, you HAVE to kill those guys like they all have kill your extended family, you HAVE to butcher those cows like they ate all your flowers, you HAVE to go to this next place or you will have nothing to do.

    I think the problem is also the whole 'level' system, if you don't complete this area, you cant move to the next one. There are too many restrictions in MMOG to prevent you from playing it the way you want it to be, even more restrictions than single player games.

    How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
    As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329

    Problems are not quest themselves, what problem is are things tied to questing.

     

    In modern mmorpg's there is level system. What level system do it is cutting players off content. So many players want to rush through quests to "get max level". Becasue many regions and quests aren't important for players right after they get more levels , they are made too simple and too boring and repetetive. Too add to this , players cannot be supirised or find anything by  themselves becasue quest trackers show them everything.

    Quest trackers were implememnted becasue people were unpatient and did not wanted to "waste time getting higher levels" , but at same time quest tracker trivalize quests even more which were trival in first place.

    As long as character progress is linear and player leave behind regions behind after he linearly progress , then there is no real saving for quests. Well you can make quests more interesting and complex , but since 80% of regions will be outlevelled and not used after you outlevel them , compelx quests will just ramp up costs alot.

     

    To solve this , mmorpg's have to stop beign so linear, but at same time they cannot be totally unlinear because that are not what players wants.  So really they have to start mixing themeparks / sandbox elements to solve problems that are tied to whole mmorpg design atm.

     

    Guild Wars 2 is trying to solve this by level "adjustment" so player /mobs are scaled up or down to make levels less relevant.

    This is good attempt , but well I cannot ask question , if that's the case why not just get rid of levels?

    Make character progress by aquiring new skills / increasing current skills / combinign them ,etc - in some limited way GW 2 is doing this as well.

    Guess levels are mainlyt kept there becasuse some players that haven't played other non-level mmorpg's don't know that there can be really nice progression without character having "levels".

    I hope GW2 will show players that your character skills and personal player skills matter more in this game than just a level number since it is gonna be scaled up/down so level itself will be much less relevant than in f.e. WoW.

     

    Another difrent attempt is made by ArcheAge, there is still system level there but there are no closed classes there. You build your own (or choose from premade) class from provided elements , you also can change those elements thus changing your class during gameplay as well , but it is made time consuming and very very costly , so people will rather stick with their initial choice or if they change one element they won't do it often becaue of very high money cost and propably time and effort requirement to "train" this new element that was exchanged for an old one.

    It is not like a Rift , is is very very diffrent. Rift allowed just for bigger customizetion within class limit , ArcheAge don't have classes in your normal sense. So it is para-skill based system as well. Since your skills depend on what "abilities combination" you choose.

    Regions are made more relevant because of player made things. Open world housing , crafting , exploration , world beign an one big world without loading screens.

     

    So games developers just want to loosen traditional EQ/ WoW closed class / level above all mechanics. I hope they succeed becasue with linear progression and closed worlds I don't think game devvelopers will be able to keep up with having enough content , because when you progress linearly you leave all previous content back and it is done and those regions ,unfinished quests from those regions , resources ,etc are automatically made completly irreleveant.

     

    So game mechanics must change in order for quests to be diffrent.

Sign In or Register to comment.