Most of those games gave you multiple lives and, most importantly, those games weren't based around progression.
Try again.
Have you played Ancient Domains of Mystery? It's a roguelike game... a more complex varient of nethack with a *very* long progression curve (I've only made it to the level cap on one character once) and oops-you're-dead permadeath situations all the way up to the final battle.
Permadeath is simply the extreme end of the continuum of setbacks that a player can face. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but I think it's a topic that's definitely worth batting around on a forum from time to time to see what ideas pop up.
Sure, there's nothing wrong with talking about it, but every time it comes up, the overwhelming majority hate it. It's just not a playstyle that most people would ever have to do anything with and that means no MMO would ever implement it because it would cost them players. The overwhelming majority of people play these games to have fun. They're not looking for a hard challenge, they're looking for something to do with their spare time. That's the bread and butter of the MMO marketplace and as time goes on, that will be more and more true. There are fewer people looking for that kind of challenge all the time. When it's such a tiny niche market, expecting someone to invest millions of dollars and years of time into a game that is destined to be a financial failure seems a bit silly.
DDO has permadeath guilds -- voluntary, of course. In pen & pencil RPGs death of characters has always happened. I can't imagine most MMOs having permadeath unless the characters are close to being premade. Anything a player is invested in -- with time, grinding for gear, a lot of characterization -- will make it more difficult for a player to let go of a character and play permadeath. Plus there are issues of disconnects, server lags, etc. Also deaths in a group where it is perceived to be one person's fault. These type of issues could be a nightmare.
Voluntary permadeath is pretty much the only kind of PD that would work in an MMO. If a player wants to play with permadeath rules, they're perfectly free to delete their characters and start completely over as soon as they die. No passing on money, gear, or items on to alts, no take-backs, nothing. You die, and you delete your character. Voila! Instant permadeath.
Any game that institutes permadeath would have to do it on a separate server from the rest of the game population, with the explicit warning that it doesn't matter what kills you -- a rat, a dragon, a lag spike, a disconnect, a player training mobs over you, etc. -- you will NOT be revived by the GM's if you die and that any appeals will be ignored. That's the only way it could work in a mainstream MMO. Make it a separate server, but don't impose it on the wider audience as a whole.
That's not perma death.
Perma death means no choice is involved. That's what makes it perma death.
If yuo have to choose to delete your character, yuo can choose not to.
That doesn't have anything to do with perma death.
Perma death is not about choice. It's about your character dying when you would choose for it not to die.
Your suggestion is your character only dies when you choose for it to die.
that's the opposite of perma death.
I see no problem with a perma death server.
It's similar to an FFA server. A niche server that would have a low pop, but that some players might enjoy.
While I can respect this "thrill" is something some people need, I would not play a MMO with either. I want relaxation or fun at my own pace and time, and not be imprisoned and unable to play or permadead either. RL is tough enough for me.
Play http://www.realmofthemadgod.com/ and you will change your mind. It really fun trying to build a very powerful character while the chance of permanent death.
-- "Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
Originally posted by Ihmotepp That's not perma death. Perma death means no choice is involved. That's what makes it perma death. If yuo have to choose to delete your character, yuo can choose not to. That doesn't have anything to do with perma death.
Tell that to the permadeath guilds in DDO who play by those rules.
Perma death is not about choice. It's about your character dying when you would choose for it not to die. Your suggestion is your character only dies when you choose for it to die. that's the opposite of perma death.
I'm talking about the current MMOs that exist. You can't change the games to add permadeath to them, but you CAN choose to play them with permadeath rules, deleting your character on death, no matter how they died.
I see no problem with a perma death server. It's similar to an FFA server. A niche server that would have a low pop, but that some players might enjoy.
That's my point. Permadeath as a rule in a mainstream MMO? Won't happen. Ever. It's too much of a CS nightmare. Even DDO doesn't have permadeath unless you choose to play by those rules in your guild.
HOWEVER, there is room for a server with permadeath, provided that players know when they log in that they're on their own, and that the GM's won't intervene or revive them no matter what kills them.
Voluntary permadeath is pretty much the only kind of PD that would work in an MMO. If a player wants to play with permadeath rules, they're perfectly free to delete their characters and start completely over as soon as they die. No passing on money, gear, or items on to alts, no take-backs, nothing. You die, and you delete your character. Voila! Instant permadeath.
Any game that institutes permadeath would have to do it on a separate server from the rest of the game population, with the explicit warning that it doesn't matter what kills you -- a rat, a dragon, a lag spike, a disconnect, a player training mobs over you, etc. -- you will NOT be revived by the GM's if you die and that any appeals will be ignored. That's the only way it could work in a mainstream MMO. Make it a separate server, but don't impose it on the wider audience as a whole.
The problem is, they don't want to play permadeath on their own, they want to impose it on everyone else. It's like the pro-groupers. They're not happy being able to group, they want everyone else have to group too. They get their jollies by forcing their playstyle on others, in the hopes that everyone else will realize just how right they were to begin with.
The reality is, you're right, people can play permadeath any time they want to. You die? Delete your character. There is a very, very tiny audience for such things and, as someone else responded to your post, they're not happy about it if anyone has a choice.
Necessary timesink: Your party wipes and you immediately restart at the beginning (or realistically: the last checkpoint) at full health/buffs, and can instantly try to make it through again.
Unnecessary timesink: Your party wipes and it takes 10 minutes to run back and rebuff.
One punishes mistakes with non-gameplay. One punishes mistakes with more gameplay.
Player imprisonment sounds like a lot of non-gameplay, so it's unnecessary. Conversely if imprisonment was a compelling event (equal gameplay fun/depth to restarting a dungeon and fighting through) then that would be an acceptable timesink.
Empty or very repetitive gameplay utterly fails to entertain players, and games exist to entertain.
Some players are entertained by more than just progression and combat.
Who said anything about progression and combat? I'm talking about gameplay.
AFK-rotting in a dungeon is non-gameplay. Running back for 10 minutes is virtually non-gameplay. Games live or die on providing entertainment, and that means either interactive elements or theatric elements at every step. Big periods of dull non-interaction are a recipe for a boring, unappealing game.
Your whole argument is based on the assumption that players only enjoy progression and combat. There is gameplay to be had AFk rotting in a dungeon and spending 20 minutes running back to your corpse or getting someone to drag it out for you. Because you do not like that gameplay, you assume that it sucks and that nobody enjoys it. Sorry, but you are wrong. I find games that are 100% about combat and progression to be boring and unappealing. But I will help players out of bad situations and buff them up all day long, tell jokes, try to inspire them to do better instead of just face rolling until they get lucky.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Your whole argument is based on the assumption that players only enjoy progression and combat. There is gameplay to be had AFk rotting in a dungeon and spending 20 minutes running back to your corpse or getting someone to drag it out for you. Because you do not like that gameplay, you assume that it sucks and that nobody enjoys it. Sorry, but you are wrong. I find games that are 100% about combat and progression to be boring and unappealing. But I will help players out of bad situations and buff them up all day long, tell jokes, try to inspire them to do better instead of just face rolling until they get lucky.
Sorry, your assumptions are completely inaccurate.
I've enjoyed tons of games where failure or non-optimal play isn't punished by 20 minutes of non-gameplay, but where combat is not the primary focus of gameplay. Here's just a few of those games:
Terraria
Puzzle Pirates
Drop7 (iPhone)
All puzzle games, really.
Poker (iPhone)
Mega Mall Story (iPhone)
It's just bad game design for a dev team to spend 99% of their effort on making Core Activities A-D fun, and then punish players with Activity F which has 1% of the effort spent on it (if that.) Which is why I call it non-gameplay. There are masochistic players out there who are fine with that, but they make up a tiny minority. Most players play games to be entertained, not to experience excessive lengths of non-gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Your whole argument is based on the assumption that MMORPG players only enjoy progression and combat. There is gameplay to be had AFk rotting in a dungeon and spending 20 minutes running back to your corpse or getting someone to drag it out for you. Because you do not like that gameplay, you assume that it sucks and that nobody enjoys it. Sorry, but you are wrong. I find MMORPG games that are 100% about combat and progression to be boring and unappealing. But I will help players out of bad situations and buff them up all day long, tell jokes, try to inspire them to do better instead of just face rolling until they get lucky.
Sorry, your assumptions are completely inaccurate.
I've enjoyed tons of games where failure or non-optimal play isn't punished by 20 minutes of non-gameplay, but where combat is not the primary focus of gameplay. Here's just a few of those games:
Terraria
Puzzle Pirates
Drop7 (iPhone)
All puzzle games, really.
Poker (iPhone)
Mega Mall Story (iPhone)
It's just bad game design for a dev team to spend 99% of their effort on making Core Activities A-D fun, and then punish players with Activity F which has 1% of the effort spent on it (if that.) Which is why I call it non-gameplay. There are masochistic players out there who are fine with that, but they make up a tiny minority. Most players play games to be entertained, not to experience excessive lengths of non-gameplay.
MMORPGs offer something unique that those games, and no other game genre, is capable of. I don't have a problem with light penalties in any other genre besides Online RPGs, because I do not play them for the dynamic social mechanics. Light death penalties directly inhibit this unique feature and cause interacting to become largely a means to an end, rather than the main purpose of playing them. I fully understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree with you. I don't believe harsh death penalties magically make games more socially dynamic, nor do I believe that there are not other mechanics that encourage such behavior, but I think MMORPGs with light death penalties are a huge waste of potential.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Your whole argument is based on the assumption that MMORPG players only enjoy progression and combat. There is gameplay to be had AFk rotting in a dungeon and spending 20 minutes running back to your corpse or getting someone to drag it out for you. Because you do not like that gameplay, you assume that it sucks and that nobody enjoys it. Sorry, but you are wrong. I find MMORPG games that are 100% about combat and progression to be boring and unappealing. But I will help players out of bad situations and buff them up all day long, tell jokes, try to inspire them to do better instead of just face rolling until they get lucky.
Sorry, your assumptions are completely inaccurate.
I've enjoyed tons of games where failure or non-optimal play isn't punished by 20 minutes of non-gameplay, but where combat is not the primary focus of gameplay. Here's just a few of those games:
Terraria
Puzzle Pirates
Drop7 (iPhone)
All puzzle games, really.
Poker (iPhone)
Mega Mall Story (iPhone)
It's just bad game design for a dev team to spend 99% of their effort on making Core Activities A-D fun, and then punish players with Activity F which has 1% of the effort spent on it (if that.) Which is why I call it non-gameplay. There are masochistic players out there who are fine with that, but they make up a tiny minority. Most players play games to be entertained, not to experience excessive lengths of non-gameplay.
MMORPGs offer something unique that those games, and no other game genre, is capable of. I don't have a problem with light penalties in any other genre besides Online RPGs, because I do not play them for the dynamic social mechanics. Light death penalties directly inhibit this unique feature and cause interacting to become largely a means to an end, rather than the main purpose of playing them. I fully understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree with you. I don't believe harsh death penalties magically make games more socially dynamic, nor do I believe that there are not other mechanics that encourage such behavior, but I think MMORPGs with light death penalties are a huge waste of potential.
Players are still social in Puzzle Pirates, an MMO without combat as core gameplay, without excessive time-wasting as a penalty, but with social cooperation.
Lots of time-wasting on party wipe actually encourages players to separate more than anything, because it ruins gameplay flow.
The only reason we have these archaic poorly-designed death mechanics at all was they were a workaround for trying to figure out how to penalize failure in an open world environment, where you can't reset players back to a checkpoint or beginning of a game level (because those concepts don't really exist.)
That's literally the only reason the mechanic continues to persist, and it's flimsy as hell (which is why we've shifted so far away from the clumsy early attempts at it.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Your whole argument is based on the assumption that MMORPG players only enjoy progression and combat. There is gameplay to be had AFk rotting in a dungeon and spending 20 minutes running back to your corpse or getting someone to drag it out for you. Because you do not like that gameplay, you assume that it sucks and that nobody enjoys it. Sorry, but you are wrong. I find MMORPG games that are 100% about combat and progression to be boring and unappealing. But I will help players out of bad situations and buff them up all day long, tell jokes, try to inspire them to do better instead of just face rolling until they get lucky.
Sorry, your assumptions are completely inaccurate.
I've enjoyed tons of games where failure or non-optimal play isn't punished by 20 minutes of non-gameplay, but where combat is not the primary focus of gameplay. Here's just a few of those games:
Terraria
Puzzle Pirates
Drop7 (iPhone)
All puzzle games, really.
Poker (iPhone)
Mega Mall Story (iPhone)
It's just bad game design for a dev team to spend 99% of their effort on making Core Activities A-D fun, and then punish players with Activity F which has 1% of the effort spent on it (if that.) Which is why I call it non-gameplay. There are masochistic players out there who are fine with that, but they make up a tiny minority. Most players play games to be entertained, not to experience excessive lengths of non-gameplay.
MMORPGs offer something unique that those games, and no other game genre, is capable of. I don't have a problem with light penalties in any other genre besides Online RPGs, because I do not play them for the dynamic social mechanics. Light death penalties directly inhibit this unique feature and cause interacting to become largely a means to an end, rather than the main purpose of playing them. I fully understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree with you. I don't believe harsh death penalties magically make games more socially dynamic, nor do I believe that there are not other mechanics that encourage such behavior, but I think MMORPGs with light death penalties are a huge waste of potential.
Players are still social in Puzzle Pirates, an MMO without combat as core gameplay, without excessive time-wasting as a penalty, but with social cooperation.
Lots of time-wasting on party wipe actually encourages players to separate more than anything, because it ruins gameplay flow.
The only reason we have these archaic poorly-designed death mechanics at all was they were a workaround for trying to figure out how to penalize failure in an open world environment, where you can't reset players back to a checkpoint or beginning of a game level (because those concepts don't really exist.)
That's literally the only reason the mechanic continues to persist, and it's flimsy as hell (which is why we've shifted so far away from the clumsy early attempts at it.)
So you're basically saying carrots are better than sticks?
If you want to encourage grouping, then give big bonuses for grouping, instead of harsh death penalties?
One problem though, is grouping is a form of game play, not necessarily a form of "socializing".
You CAN socialize while grouped, but you don't have to.
Think of it like basketball. You're playing as a team, passing the ball to each other, doing an activity together, but is that "socializing"? You're usually to busy to chat while you're playing. and if everyone knows their position, a lot of chatting isn't necessary.
I've certainly been in groups where not a word was said. you join up, everyone knows their job, you work together, slam through the quest, or mob grind, and that's that.
I wouldn't really call it "socializing".
You have to have SOME sort of penalty, or there's no reason to avoid death. That can take a lot of the fun away.
it's a balancing act. To much penalty, it's tedious. No penalty, and death is meaningless.
Imagine if you died, then instantly just bounced right back up, full health, in teh same spot.
Why have you die at all then? Just to watch the animation of your character lay down and get back up?
Players are still social in Puzzle Pirates, an MMO without combat as core gameplay, without excessive time-wasting as a penalty, but with social cooperation.
Lots of time-wasting on party wipe actually encourages players to separate more than anything, because it ruins gameplay flow.
The only reason we have these archaic poorly-designed death mechanics at all was they were a workaround for trying to figure out how to penalize failure in an open world environment, where you can't reset players back to a checkpoint or beginning of a game level (because those concepts don't really exist.)
That's literally the only reason the mechanic continues to persist, and it's flimsy as hell (which is why we've shifted so far away from the clumsy early attempts at it.)
So you're basically saying carrots are better than sticks?
If you want to encourage grouping, then give big bonuses for grouping, instead of harsh death penalties?
One problem though, is grouping is a form of game play, not necessarily a form of "socializing".
You CAN socialize while grouped, but you don't have to.
Think of it like basketball. You're playing as a team, passing the ball to each other, doing an activity together, but is that "socializing"? You're usually to busy to chat while you're playing. and if everyone knows their position, a lot of chatting isn't necessary.
I've certainly been in groups where not a word was said. you join up, everyone knows their job, you work together, slam through the quest, or mob grind, and that's that.
I wouldn't really call it "socializing".
You have to have SOME sort of penalty, or there's no reason to avoid death. That can take a lot of the fun away.
it's a balancing act. To much penalty, it's tedious. No penalty, and death is meaningless.
Imagine if you died, then instantly just bounced right back up, full health, in teh same spot.
Why have you die at all then? Just to watch the animation of your character lay down and get back up?
We're not discussing literal zero-penalty death. We're discussing the merits of excessive kick-you-in-the-balls or wait-45-mins-at-the-DMV penalties VS. reasonable penalty for failure. And specifically penalties which keep players playing rather than take them out of gameplay. Frustratingly, many MMORPG players seem to have a hard time distringuishing the huge difference between reasonable penalty and zero-penalty.
As for socialization, periods of low-activity gameplay can be had in far superior ways than death penalty (basically: use a round peg for the round hole; don't try to force the square peg in.) Having the socialization happen when someone screwed up works very much at cross-purposes with the spirit of casual socialization.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
We're not discussing literal zero-penalty death. We're discussing the merits of excessive kick-you-in-the-balls or wait-45-mins-at-the-DMV penalties VS. reasonable penalty for failure. And specifically penalties which keep players playing rather than take them out of gameplay. Frustratingly, many MMORPG players seem to have a hard time distringuishing the huge difference between reasonable penalty and zero-penalty.
As for socialization, periods of low-activity gameplay can be had in far superior ways than death penalty (basically: use a round peg for the round hole; don't try to force the square peg in.) Having the socialization happen when someone screwed up works very much at cross-purposes with the spirit of casual socialization.
I agree that having the socialization only happen when someone screws up works at cross-purpose with the spirit of casual socialization in a group format, but I'm also of the opinion that harsher death penalties can inspire more socialization before someone screws up or outside of the group format, which is basically what I've been arguing about. It's ironic that in the group format, even with light death penalties some players get so upset when a person makes a mistake, but with harsher death penalties many players take it in stride.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I agree that having the socialization happen when someone screwed up works at cross-purpose with the spirit of casual socialization, but I'm also of the opinion that harsher death penalties can inspire more socialization before someone screws up, which is basically what I've been arguing about. It's ironic that even with light death penalties some players get so upset when a person makes a mistake, but with harsher death penalties many players take it in stride.
One of my favorite memories of EQ was helping a complete stranger recover a corpse. He'd lost himself underwater in Surefall Glade and drowned. (This would have been late 99 -- I was level 12). We searched for quite some time, and nearly went through all 20 fish scales I had on me. Great fun.
The newer games move too quickly to encourage socialization. There are no corpse recoveries that need multiple people to help drag the corpse. There is no in-group down-time (healing or mana regen or even pulling time), and groups are simply quiet. The only real 'conversation' most games will ever see are people looking for a group, asking for help, begging for stuff, or killing time while crafting. The social part of modern MMOs is almost extinct due to the solo-friendly content and the quick regen/replenish times.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I would like a permadeath system that works something like the avatar state in the last airbender series. You are the Avatar, and you can die, but that just means you will be reborn as the avatar again, but if you enter avatar state, you become imensely powerful, way more powerful than your normal form, but if you die in your avatar state you are dead for good.
With a little lore and game play integration it could be made to make sense why you can die and come back to life again without having to remake your character each time you die and also you give you a great risk reward mechanic if you wish to pursue it.
Comments
Sure, there's nothing wrong with talking about it, but every time it comes up, the overwhelming majority hate it. It's just not a playstyle that most people would ever have to do anything with and that means no MMO would ever implement it because it would cost them players. The overwhelming majority of people play these games to have fun. They're not looking for a hard challenge, they're looking for something to do with their spare time. That's the bread and butter of the MMO marketplace and as time goes on, that will be more and more true. There are fewer people looking for that kind of challenge all the time. When it's such a tiny niche market, expecting someone to invest millions of dollars and years of time into a game that is destined to be a financial failure seems a bit silly.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
That's not perma death.
Perma death means no choice is involved. That's what makes it perma death.
If yuo have to choose to delete your character, yuo can choose not to.
That doesn't have anything to do with perma death.
Perma death is not about choice. It's about your character dying when you would choose for it not to die.
Your suggestion is your character only dies when you choose for it to die.
that's the opposite of perma death.
I see no problem with a perma death server.
It's similar to an FFA server. A niche server that would have a low pop, but that some players might enjoy.
Play http://www.realmofthemadgod.com/ and you will change your mind. It really fun trying to build a very powerful character while the chance of permanent death.
--
"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
Tell that to the permadeath guilds in DDO who play by those rules.
I'm talking about the current MMOs that exist. You can't change the games to add permadeath to them, but you CAN choose to play them with permadeath rules, deleting your character on death, no matter how they died.
That's my point. Permadeath as a rule in a mainstream MMO? Won't happen. Ever. It's too much of a CS nightmare. Even DDO doesn't have permadeath unless you choose to play by those rules in your guild.
HOWEVER, there is room for a server with permadeath, provided that players know when they log in that they're on their own, and that the GM's won't intervene or revive them no matter what kills them.
The problem is, they don't want to play permadeath on their own, they want to impose it on everyone else. It's like the pro-groupers. They're not happy being able to group, they want everyone else have to group too. They get their jollies by forcing their playstyle on others, in the hopes that everyone else will realize just how right they were to begin with.
The reality is, you're right, people can play permadeath any time they want to. You die? Delete your character. There is a very, very tiny audience for such things and, as someone else responded to your post, they're not happy about it if anyone has a choice.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Your whole argument is based on the assumption that players only enjoy progression and combat. There is gameplay to be had AFk rotting in a dungeon and spending 20 minutes running back to your corpse or getting someone to drag it out for you. Because you do not like that gameplay, you assume that it sucks and that nobody enjoys it. Sorry, but you are wrong. I find games that are 100% about combat and progression to be boring and unappealing. But I will help players out of bad situations and buff them up all day long, tell jokes, try to inspire them to do better instead of just face rolling until they get lucky.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Sorry, your assumptions are completely inaccurate.
I've enjoyed tons of games where failure or non-optimal play isn't punished by 20 minutes of non-gameplay, but where combat is not the primary focus of gameplay. Here's just a few of those games:
Terraria
Puzzle Pirates
Drop7 (iPhone)
All puzzle games, really.
Poker (iPhone)
Mega Mall Story (iPhone)
It's just bad game design for a dev team to spend 99% of their effort on making Core Activities A-D fun, and then punish players with Activity F which has 1% of the effort spent on it (if that.) Which is why I call it non-gameplay. There are masochistic players out there who are fine with that, but they make up a tiny minority. Most players play games to be entertained, not to experience excessive lengths of non-gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
MMORPGs offer something unique that those games, and no other game genre, is capable of. I don't have a problem with light penalties in any other genre besides Online RPGs, because I do not play them for the dynamic social mechanics. Light death penalties directly inhibit this unique feature and cause interacting to become largely a means to an end, rather than the main purpose of playing them. I fully understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree with you. I don't believe harsh death penalties magically make games more socially dynamic, nor do I believe that there are not other mechanics that encourage such behavior, but I think MMORPGs with light death penalties are a huge waste of potential.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Players are still social in Puzzle Pirates, an MMO without combat as core gameplay, without excessive time-wasting as a penalty, but with social cooperation.
Lots of time-wasting on party wipe actually encourages players to separate more than anything, because it ruins gameplay flow.
The only reason we have these archaic poorly-designed death mechanics at all was they were a workaround for trying to figure out how to penalize failure in an open world environment, where you can't reset players back to a checkpoint or beginning of a game level (because those concepts don't really exist.)
That's literally the only reason the mechanic continues to persist, and it's flimsy as hell (which is why we've shifted so far away from the clumsy early attempts at it.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I doubt any of these will ever happen in any mmo ever . At least not a mainstream one .
So you're basically saying carrots are better than sticks?
If you want to encourage grouping, then give big bonuses for grouping, instead of harsh death penalties?
One problem though, is grouping is a form of game play, not necessarily a form of "socializing".
You CAN socialize while grouped, but you don't have to.
Think of it like basketball. You're playing as a team, passing the ball to each other, doing an activity together, but is that "socializing"? You're usually to busy to chat while you're playing. and if everyone knows their position, a lot of chatting isn't necessary.
I've certainly been in groups where not a word was said. you join up, everyone knows their job, you work together, slam through the quest, or mob grind, and that's that.
I wouldn't really call it "socializing".
You have to have SOME sort of penalty, or there's no reason to avoid death. That can take a lot of the fun away.
it's a balancing act. To much penalty, it's tedious. No penalty, and death is meaningless.
Imagine if you died, then instantly just bounced right back up, full health, in teh same spot.
Why have you die at all then? Just to watch the animation of your character lay down and get back up?
We're not discussing literal zero-penalty death. We're discussing the merits of excessive kick-you-in-the-balls or wait-45-mins-at-the-DMV penalties VS. reasonable penalty for failure. And specifically penalties which keep players playing rather than take them out of gameplay. Frustratingly, many MMORPG players seem to have a hard time distringuishing the huge difference between reasonable penalty and zero-penalty.
As for socialization, periods of low-activity gameplay can be had in far superior ways than death penalty (basically: use a round peg for the round hole; don't try to force the square peg in.) Having the socialization happen when someone screwed up works very much at cross-purposes with the spirit of casual socialization.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I agree that having the socialization only happen when someone screws up works at cross-purpose with the spirit of casual socialization in a group format, but I'm also of the opinion that harsher death penalties can inspire more socialization before someone screws up or outside of the group format, which is basically what I've been arguing about. It's ironic that in the group format, even with light death penalties some players get so upset when a person makes a mistake, but with harsher death penalties many players take it in stride.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
One of my favorite memories of EQ was helping a complete stranger recover a corpse. He'd lost himself underwater in Surefall Glade and drowned. (This would have been late 99 -- I was level 12). We searched for quite some time, and nearly went through all 20 fish scales I had on me. Great fun.
The newer games move too quickly to encourage socialization. There are no corpse recoveries that need multiple people to help drag the corpse. There is no in-group down-time (healing or mana regen or even pulling time), and groups are simply quiet. The only real 'conversation' most games will ever see are people looking for a group, asking for help, begging for stuff, or killing time while crafting. The social part of modern MMOs is almost extinct due to the solo-friendly content and the quick regen/replenish times.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I would like a permadeath system that works something like the avatar state in the last airbender series. You are the Avatar, and you can die, but that just means you will be reborn as the avatar again, but if you enter avatar state, you become imensely powerful, way more powerful than your normal form, but if you die in your avatar state you are dead for good.
With a little lore and game play integration it could be made to make sense why you can die and come back to life again without having to remake your character each time you die and also you give you a great risk reward mechanic if you wish to pursue it.