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Pay 2 win becoming legitimate? Have we really lost our way this much?

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  • ArkainArkain Member UncommonPosts: 491

    Originally posted by Fendel84M

    Personally, I think p2w is being embraced, because it already exists in every MMO anyways. Just not always legitimately. You really think EverQuest wasnt pay to win? tell that to the guy who paid $700 for my brothers level 55 Shaman back in the day.

    There will always be a pay to win market, and it cannot be stopped because people will always find ways around attempts to control it.

     


    I see the point you are trying to make, but there is a difference. What I see as the issue is Blizz indorsing the pay 2 win. You see in EQ, SOE never said that it was OK to buy items for real money.


    For me, that is like the police saying it is ok if I buy a stolen TV form someone.

    image
  • RevivialRevivial Member Posts: 194

    Originally posted by Arkain

    Originally posted by Fendel84M

    Personally, I think p2w is being embraced, because it already exists in every MMO anyways. Just not always legitimately. You really think EverQuest wasnt pay to win? tell that to the guy who paid $700 for my brothers level 55 Shaman back in the day.

    There will always be a pay to win market, and it cannot be stopped because people will always find ways around attempts to control it.

     


    I see the point you are trying to make, but there is a difference. What I see as the issue is Blizz indorsing the pay 2 win. You see in EQ, SOE never said that it was OK to buy items for real money.


    For me, that is like the police saying it is ok if I buy a stolen TV form someone.

    SoE did have the Bazaar and Vox servers in EQ2 which allows you to buy and sell in game stuff for real money.  Can buy maxed Avatars with lots of AAs.

    "I swear -- by my life and my love for it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
    - John Galt

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Arkain

    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    Personally, I think p2w is being embraced, because it already exists in every MMO anyways. Just not always legitimately. You really think EverQuest wasnt pay to win? tell that to the guy who paid $700 for my brothers level 55 Shaman back in the day.
    There will always be a pay to win market, and it cannot be stopped because people will always find ways around attempts to control it.
     

    I see the point you are trying to make, but there is a difference. What I see as the issue is Blizz indorsing the pay 2 win. You see in EQ, SOE never said that it was OK to buy items for real money.

    For me, that is like the police saying it is ok if I buy a stolen TV form someone.




    That's an even worse analogy than legalizing drugs.

    1) A Player to Player RMT Auction House does not equate to 'Pay 2 Win'. It's the entire rest of the game that determines that.

    2) Blizzard isn't a government or the police. They are a business. If they can't stop RMT, their best alternative is to make it safer and make money off of it.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Member Posts: 1,214

    Originally posted by owhitham

    Our company is making an iPhone MMO, and the subscriptions vs Micro-transactions debate is something that has caused us a lot of trouble.

    The biggest problem of course is that we are launching a new game, and need players. And every piece of market research is showing us now that It's REALLY hard to convince people to pay a subscription, when there are free to play (With Micro Transaction) games available.  

    In essence, many new game developers are being forced in to Micro-transactions because unfortunately the majority of players do not want to pay a subscription, even though the players who are least likely to pay a subscription, are some of the most likely to spend money on Micro transactions.

    We are trying to make MT's as low impact as possible in our game, we are using them for things like Ship insurance, etc, maybe cutting away a little bit of the grind, but not giving one player an advantage over another in battle.

    Our decision to launch with micro-transactions was not easy, especially after witnessing the backlash on EVE.  However we can't ignore that creating a game on a subscription basis just is not as viable as it once was. Like EVE our main player base is adverse to unfair advantages (The game Traveller-AR is based on the Traveller Tabletop RPG) so we have to carefully balance that fine line between profitability and fairness.

    I have friends doing the same thing...as far as making iphone MMO's/Games. Way I see it...if you make the game a refreshing change from the thousands of cookie cutter models there are, and make something innovative...it wouldn't be near as hard to get subs.

    I know personally ( And of many others that feel the same that I know, as well as many on this site stating the same) from 12 years of MMO gaming I'd rather pay a monthly subscription fee for an MMO with great lore, meaningful quests that go beyond "KIll/Collect X amount of Y from creature Z 10 feet away" types, true exploration, meaningful crafting, weather and day/night cycles, intelligent AI that doesn't simply stand and wait to be killed, not gear dependant, etc and without all the hand holding before playing any F2P or P2W model out there...no matter how good they may be.

  • fionanshrekfionanshrek Member Posts: 104

    Originally posted by neorandom

    Originally posted by fionanshrek

    Originally posted by neorandom

    there are several million of us already planning on boycotting diablo 3 just because we hate pay to win, blizzard will feel the crunch when they dont sell 1/3 as many copies as they would have if they hadnt been pay to win.

     Where are you getting this number????

    we are legion, and we are united against the pay to win beast.  join us

     Ok and again where exactly are you getting this number????

  • ThekandyThekandy Member Posts: 621

    Originally posted by just1opinion

    Originally posted by Xzen

    I don't know about you guys but D3 isn't pay to win for me. I'll be buying the game and selling off all the rares for real money. I guess it is pay to win if you're the chump paying real money for gear.

     

    For real money, huh?  So Blizzard has this set up to work like Linden Labs Second Life with their RMT now?  I have this sneaking suspicion that selling things for real money....isn't going to work quite like you're thinking.  But I guess we'll see, huh?

    This is how it's going to work according to the official FAQ:

    You get an unspecified, limited amount of free listings per account, after that you have to pay a listing fee.

    When you sell an item Blizzard takes a cut (5-10% if i should wager a guess) any proceeds will go to your Battle.net "wallet" and can be spent not only in Diablo 3, but also on gametime for WoW and even to buy any game in the Blizzard store.

    Proceeds can also be transferred to another banking medium like paypal, this has to be set manually and will cost a transfer fee. Oh yeah, one crucial detail is that you will have to specify whether you want your money on the "wallet" or your alternative, once it's in the wallet it's in there for good. (At least that's how it was written last i checked the FAQ.)

    Gold can also be sold on the RMAH, so there's still an incentive to list items on the traditional AH besides the (possibly expensive) listing fee, of course the gold may not have any worth if things go like D2, but that's up to Blizzard to regulate.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by fionanshrek

    Originally posted by neorandom

    Originally posted by fionanshrek

    Originally posted by neorandom
    there are several million of us already planning on boycotting diablo 3 just because we hate pay to win, blizzard will feel the crunch when they dont sell 1/3 as many copies as they would have if they hadnt been pay to win.
     Where are you getting this number????


    we are legion, and we are united against the pay to win beast.  join us


     Ok and again where exactly are you getting this number????



    Several Million? There are hardly several million people who are going to play Diablo 3 period, much less boycott it. If 'several million' people were planning on boycotting the game, Blizzard's forums would be over run with people posting their hatred of Blizzard and everything about the AH. Since the forums haven't crashed and most of the posts aren't about the RMT AH, then I would think this number is made up...or at least part of a very elaborate hallucination.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • GishgeronGishgeron Member Posts: 1,287

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by Gishgeron

      I'd have quoted you, but...I really didn't feel like deleting all that other stuff just to keep the post size reasonable.  You've made a good point.  Arguing semantics IS silly I suppose.  I just hate when people try to talk about the way currency operates ingame as though its anything like a real economy.  I realize we print money all the time.  Its not as simple as a MASTERS OF BUSINESS should have implied.  We don't just print money all the time.  A central bank can buy government assets, and then print money from that.  The money in print is not vapor, it IS based on finite things.  Granted, some of those things are debts being printed against...and thats NOT GOOD.  But, there is always a thing of value associated with the money in print.  There is nothing of value against the currency in a video game.  Nothing but time, and usually not much of it. 

      A good example is the stone trade done in D2, those are vapor currency...but time factors in to those a little heavier than regular game currency so it took much longer for an inflation to be as visible.  Still not a solid imitation of a real economy, but certainly a better one, (and this is why it was used).   My point, in its heart, is that using RMT in this way is allowing an ACTUAL established economy to set real value to things.  I detest when the argument against that is, "Its ruining the economy of the game!".  No, its creating one.  The game never really had one.  It had a terrible imitation that would ruin itself in time and be replaced by another SoJ style one.

     I didn't mean to imply that the government prints money anytime they need it ;).  That would obviously cause massive devaluation of the dollar resulting in huge inflation among other problems.  To be fair though, some governments do print money fairly frequently.

    And actually...hate to break it to you but paper money is vapor.  It is not based on finite things.  It is only based on the governments promise that the money is worth something because they say so.  You are probably thinking of something like the gold standard where money was essentially based on some finite amount of gold held in a fort somewhere.  The gold standard has been gone for some time now...money is pretty ephemeral today.

    And currency in a game does have value, just only in the game.  It has no value in real life outside of illicit gold sellers, and I think that's the way it should be.

    Also, using real money will definitely set a value to things in game, but there will still be problems.  Think about this, in a typical game economy, you always have massive inflation over a short period of time.  This is because the in game "government" essentially prints you new money whenever you kill a mob or sell things to a vendor.  Since there aren't enough measures to take all this money out of circulation (money sinks), the money supply inflates extremely fast and results in players' currencies losing real value...which sucks.

    Now think about a game that uses an RMAH.  The dollar is not going to be affected by what happens in game obviously, so you're pretty safe from inflation or anything that directly affects the currency.  But think about the goods in the game.  Items in theme park games typically do not decay so they don't need replacement.  As time goes on the players will just loot more and more items flooding the market with supply.  This is going to cause prices to decline extremely quickly.

    So you basically have problems in both scenarios.  In the current in-game economy situation, your gold (the currency) loses value quickly.  In the RMAH example, your items will lose value quickly because of the market being flooded with supply and no real increase in demand.  I don't see how it makes it any better.  You're just trading one problem for another.

      Another good point.  Years ago, on this site, I laid out a foundation for a sandbox game and it utilized both decay and limited resources.  This was to address this specific issue.  You are absolutely right about the items losing value in this model...but I believe that is the point.  This game Blizzard is playing is to directly kill RMT, I think.  Outside RMT WILL die, at least here...and probably any game they allow this for.  Inside RMT will also die a slow death...as value drops, inevitably the items will be worth so little that players will find another way to regain value.  in either case, the massive value market for ingame items will be laid to waste.  in a way, now only Blizzard will make money off of Blizzard.  But until that final death happens...they are giving US a little of that money along the way.

      Genius, if you think about it.

    image

  • owhithamowhitham Member Posts: 3

    We will be one of the first MMO's to allow members to create missions, so I guess not all the emphasis will be on us for that one :P 

    I do get what you mean, however as a start up company it is hard to justify worsening the odds that your game will take off when there is so much competition already out there, most of which is giving out the product for 'free'.  We are really looking to make this game a fantastic.

    Actually, just to deepen this a little further.

    One other method that is kind of a mixture between MT's and Subs is to have a free version of the game and the subscription version of the game on the same server. While someone could for instance play forever on the free version, they would not receive the same benefits as the people on the subscription.

    Lets cover the basics, this could be classed as a play to win game. However it may be more suitable to think of it as a subscription where you get to allocate a certain amount of credits to things you want. The F2P would infact be an unlimited 'trial' of the full game which would be subscription based with benefits.

    Or we could just limit trial accounts, same thing, but it does mean that a trial player could never truly succeed.

    Helping develop a new space MMO for the iPhone - Traveller-AR

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247

    Originally posted by ANDRIOD

    deelyboppers?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AKASlaphappyAKASlaphappy Member UncommonPosts: 800

    Originally posted by Gishgeron

     

     

      God I hope so.  The video game world is so blah these days...I rather enjoy the prospect of being paid to play them.  Especially MMO's....the little rats are basically second jobs anyway.  Might as well get paid for em, I say.

     


    Video games are supposed to be about having fun! Why the hell are you people playing games that are so unbearable that you want to turn them into a second job in order to keep playing? Why the hell would you not just quit the game, is that really that hard? Or do you guys just like turning something that was fun into something that is torture for yourself. I guess if that is how people want to live now days all forms of entertainment should adapt this concept.


     


    I wonder if I could convince theaters to adopt something like this. We would turn movies something people use to do for entertainment into something really unbearable but then have the allure you might get paid for it. Here is my idea for when you go see a movie; when you leave you have to take a test, for every question you get right you get money, for everyone you get wrong you get shocked with a cattle prod. Let’s see if I lived up to what gaming has turned into. Did I take something that use to be a form of entertainment and make it unbearable so people will want to do it to get paid- added tests and shocking with cattle prod so check! Sweet now I just need to convince the movie industry of this solid gold idea, and then get a job as the person with a cattle prod so I can shock stupid people.


     


    I agree with you Creslin321 adding real money purchases for armor and weapon into games is a bad idea! Unfortunately we are in the minority that thinks that, most people love the idea. I honestly think the era of playing games to have fun is coming to an end, eventually all games will be digital Wall Street. Yeah we get to work while we are entertained, on second thought I really need to figure out a way to use this. I can turn all the sheep into millions of dollars as they waste away playing a game, oh wait Blizzard already beat me to it.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Member Posts: 1,214

    Originally posted by owhitham

    We will be one of the first MMO's to allow members to create missions, so I guess not all the emphasis will be on us for that one :P 

    I do get what you mean, however as a start up company it is hard to justify worsening the odds that your game will take off when there is so much competition already out there, most of which is giving out the product for 'free'.  We are really looking to make this game a fantastic.

    Actually, just to deepen this a little further.

    One other method that is kind of a mixture between MT's and Subs is to have a free version of the game and the subscription version of the game on the same server. While someone could for instance play forever on the free version, they would not receive the same benefits as the people on the subscription.

    Lets cover the basics, this could be classed as a play to win game. However it may be more suitable to think of it as a subscription where you get to allocate a certain amount of credits to things you want. The F2P would infact be an unlimited 'trial' of the full game which would be subscription based with benefits.

    Or we could just limit trial accounts, same thing, but it does mean that a trial player could never truly succeed.

    Eh...those on the free version still succeed. They get to play free, and get that instant gratification from it at no cost. However, those that wish to see and do more as long as they have the patience to justify the subscription fee for it (I.E. More quests, more equipment, classes, etc, etc)...it is these for their enjoyment. =)  Maybe release free to start with some MT's to generate soem income..maybe with intent and some advertising for a "soon to come" enhanced version with all the bells and whistles for a fee. If enough attention is attracted, the latter may work out well.

    It's all a gamble when making a game anyways.

  • ThekandyThekandy Member Posts: 621

    Originally posted by Gishgeron

    Originally posted by Creslin321


    Originally posted by Gishgeron

     

      Another good point.  Years ago, on this site, I laid out a foundation for a sandbox game and it utilized both decay and limited resources.  This was to address this specific issue.  You are absolutely right about the items losing value in this model...but I believe that is the point.  This game Blizzard is playing is to directly kill RMT, I think.  Outside RMT WILL die, at least here...and probably any game they allow this for.  Inside RMT will also die a slow death...as value drops, inevitably the items will be worth so little that players will find another way to regain value.  in either case, the massive value market for ingame items will be laid to waste.  in a way, now only Blizzard will make money off of Blizzard.  But until that final death happens...they are giving US a little of that money along the way.

      Genius, if you think about it.

    I wouldn't be so sure about that, if there's anything the chinese are good at it's doing things cheaper and more efficiently than others, so unless they can manipulate the ingame market to such a degree that they're sitting on everything, which won't be allowed if the regulators Blizzard puts in charge are any good, there will still be a market outside the legal system.

    Secondly, i don't think the market for rare items will die just like that, remember that the market for rare items in Diablo 2 is still going and it's been a little over 11 years since that one sprung up.

  • fionanshrekfionanshrek Member Posts: 104

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by fionanshrek





    Originally posted by neorandom





    Originally posted by fionanshrek





    Originally posted by neorandom

    there are several million of us already planning on boycotting diablo 3 just because we hate pay to win, blizzard will feel the crunch when they dont sell 1/3 as many copies as they would have if they hadnt been pay to win.






     Where are you getting this number????





    we are legion, and we are united against the pay to win beast.  join us





     Ok and again where exactly are you getting this number????







    Several Million? There are hardly several million people who are going to play Diablo 3 period, much less boycott it. If 'several million' people were planning on boycotting the game, Blizzard's forums would be over run with people posting their hatred of Blizzard and everything about the AH. Since the forums haven't crashed and most of the posts aren't about the RMT AH, then I would think this number is made up...or at least part of a very elaborate hallucination.

     

     Yeah I know that just get sick of some of these posters on here with the exagerations and all (including the op).  As stated he spends time on this site and knows full well until he created this post there weren't people campaigning for p2w the debates here have largely been about freemium models not p2w.  If you stretch truths like he did just to get hits of course you are going to create the circumstance that people who engage in p2w are going to defend it.

    And as usual I try to take people at their literal words it is an exercise in futiliy to try and correctly guess what people are trying to impart say what you mean and mean what you say.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Member Posts: 1,214

    Originally posted by AKASlaphappy

    Originally posted by Gishgeron


     

     

      God I hope so.  The video game world is so blah these days...I rather enjoy the prospect of being paid to play them.  Especially MMO's....the little rats are basically second jobs anyway.  Might as well get paid for em, I say.

     


    Video games are supposed to be about having fun! Why the hell are you people playing games that are so unbearable that you want to turn them into a second job in order to keep playing? Why the hell would you not just quit the game, is that really that hard? Or do you guys just like turning something that was fun into something that is torture for yourself. I guess if that is how people want to live now days all forms of entertainment should adapt this concept.


     


    I wonder if I could convince theaters to adopt something like this. We would turn movies something people use to do for entertainment into something really unbearable but then have the allure you might get paid for it. Here is my idea for when you go see a movie; when you leave you have to take a test, for every question you get right you get money, for everyone you get wrong you get shocked with a cattle prod. Let’s see if I lived up to what gaming has turned into. Did I take something that use to be a form of entertainment and make it unbearable so people will want to do it to get paid- added tests and shocking with cattle prod so check! Sweet now I just need to convince the movie industry of this solid gold idea, and then get a job as the person with a cattle prod so I can shock stupid people.


     


    I agree with you Creslin321 adding real money purchases for armor and weapon into games is a bad idea! Unfortunately we are in the minority that thinks that, most people love the idea. I honestly think the era of playing games to have fun is coming to an end, eventually all games will be digital Wall Street. Yeah we get to work while we are entertained, on second thought I really need to figure out a way to use this. I can turn all the sheep into millions of dollars as they waste away playing a game, oh wait Blizzard already beat me to it.

    Most movies now ARE unbearable!  lol

  • GishgeronGishgeron Member Posts: 1,287

    Originally posted by AKASlaphappy

    Originally posted by Gishgeron


     

     

      God I hope so.  The video game world is so blah these days...I rather enjoy the prospect of being paid to play them.  Especially MMO's....the little rats are basically second jobs anyway.  Might as well get paid for em, I say.

     


    Video games are supposed to be about having fun! Why the hell are you people playing games that are so unbearable that you want to turn them into a second job in order to keep playing? Why the hell would you not just quit the game, is that really that hard? Or do you guys just like turning something that was fun into something that is torture for yourself. I guess if that is how people want to live now days all forms of entertainment should adapt this concept.


     


    I wonder if I could convince theaters to adopt something like this. We would turn movies something people use to do for entertainment into something really unbearable but then have the allure you might get paid for it. Here is my idea for when you go see a movie; when you leave you have to take a test, for every question you get right you get money, for everyone you get wrong you get shocked with a cattle prod. Let’s see if I lived up to what gaming has turned into. Did I take something that use to be a form of entertainment and make it unbearable so people will want to do it to get paid- added tests and shocking with cattle prod so check! Sweet now I just need to convince the movie industry of this solid gold idea, and then get a job as the person with a cattle prod so I can shock stupid people.


     


    I agree with you Creslin321 adding real money purchases for armor and weapon into games is a bad idea! Unfortunately we are in the minority that thinks that, most people love the idea. I honestly think the era of playing games to have fun is coming to an end, eventually all games will be digital Wall Street. Yeah we get to work while we are entertained, on second thought I really need to figure out a way to use this. I can turn all the sheep into millions of dollars as they waste away playing a game, oh wait Blizzard already beat me to it.

     

       I would certainly watch more bad movies that way.  Likewise, I could play more bad games this way.   But really you are being a little silly.  the RMT isn't making the game bad at all.  THe game will play exactly the same.  In fact...the same all Diablo games do.  PvP might be devalued to those whom value only being better geared over a better player.  Otherwise, you won't notice it at all.  You won't have a clue where player B got his Sword of Facemelting.  And it won't matter where, either.  He will have it, and it will serve him in his gameplay with, or without, you.  The RMT does nothing to you at all.

    image

  • AKASlaphappyAKASlaphappy Member UncommonPosts: 800

    Originally posted by Goatgod76

     

    Most movies now ARE unbearable!  lol


    Oh man do not ruin my dream, I want people to pay to see a movie so I can shock them with a cattle prod. After all they will buy a game and keep playing it when they no longer enjoy it to make money, so they should be willing to pay to go theaters so I can zap them. Let my dream live! :)

  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,637

    It's the modus operandi of the real world, why not apply it to everything we do, including computer games.  The rich have and always will get everything handed to them on a silver platter, nothing shocking about it applying to their entertainment.

    image
  • EtherougeEtherouge Member Posts: 514

    People still think it's okay to pay a monthly subscription.

  • seabeastseabeast Member Posts: 748

    In P2win, he with the most gold...wins. The real problem is when it is attached to the....f2p  games. I'll use APB as an example, why should I drop $10 for a priemium account when I can get so much more with AimBot at $20? Add on another $5 and a couple of more cheats come into play. So, why buy their monthly weapons and mods when hacks can get them and still enjoy the process along the way?

  • DerrosDerros Member UncommonPosts: 1,211

    I'm still trying to understand how you exactly, WIN, in Diablo image

     

    From what I understand the majority weren't really into hardcore mode or pvp.  Most were in it to build a character, slaughter monsters and collect and trade loot.

  • fionanshrekfionanshrek Member Posts: 104

    Originally posted by AKASlaphappy

    Originally posted by Gishgeron

     

     

      God I hope so.  The video game world is so blah these days...I rather enjoy the prospect of being paid to play them.  Especially MMO's....the little rats are basically second jobs anyway.  Might as well get paid for em, I say.

     


    Video games are supposed to be about having fun! Why the hell are you people playing games that are so unbearable that you want to turn them into a second job in order to keep playing? Why the hell would you not just quit the game, is that really that hard? Or do you guys just like turning something that was fun into something that is torture for yourself. I guess if that is how people want to live now days all forms of entertainment should adapt this concept.


     


    I wonder if I could convince theaters to adopt something like this. We would turn movies something people use to do for entertainment into something really unbearable but then have the allure you might get paid for it. Here is my idea for when you go see a movie; when you leave you have to take a test, for every question you get right you get money, for everyone you get wrong you get shocked with a cattle prod. Let’s see if I lived up to what gaming has turned into. Did I take something that use to be a form of entertainment and make it unbearable so people will want to do it to get paid- added tests and shocking with cattle prod so check! Sweet now I just need to convince the movie industry of this solid gold idea, and then get a job as the person with a cattle prod so I can shock stupid people.


     


    I agree with you Creslin321 adding real money purchases for armor and weapon into games is a bad idea! Unfortunately we are in the minority that thinks that, most people love the idea. I honestly think the era of playing games to have fun is coming to an end, eventually all games will be digital Wall Street. Yeah we get to work while we are entertained, on second thought I really need to figure out a way to use this. I can turn all the sheep into millions of dollars as they waste away playing a game, oh wait Blizzard already beat me to it.

     Many people feel that way about the endless hours of grind it takes for the few little trinkets recieved for that grinding.  And before you say "well they shouldn't be playing" you have to ask yourself who's right is it to make that decision?

    Are the devs going to turn these people away for the sake of traditionalists like creslin or you?  Most likely not,  if they were they wouldn't be adding freemium models,cash shops and the like.

    I still get a nice ittle smirk when reading topics like this because these are often the same people who argued me down about how stupid it was to pay premium price for a box to a game and then a sub fee on top of that.

    Before SWG I would never have done it after my first trial month and listening to the "mmo vets" justify it I find it kind of ironic that some feel like it's damage control time.

    I just don't see how people can say a subscription fee is alright and then turn their noses at other rmt's ANet has shown us that it is possible to release a successful mmo without charging sub fees.  As have the slate of games that are chugging along on freemium models many of which are seeing development in game at rates unheard of when they just had sub fees.

    My only advice is if you feel that strongly avoid the games you feel are moving towards that unfortunately if anyone decided to go this route he/she would be cutting themselves off from a vast majority of the games available or on the way.

  • ThekandyThekandy Member Posts: 621

    Originally posted by Derros

    I'm still trying to understand how you exactly, WIN, in Diablo image

    You defeat the final boss. /durrhurr

    But seriously, you don't. Applying pay 2 win to Diablo 3 is just a bout of hysteria.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by Loktofeit





    Originally posted by Goatgod76

    Just too many of the "me me me now now now" generation of players out there that want to be 1337 as fast as possible and be given it rather than earn it......sadly. And these gaming companies know it.






    What are your thoughts on the cable TV's Pay Per View system  -  paying for premium content that subscription customers either will have to wait to see or will never receive? 







    Good grief. What if you do see the movie in the theater? Does that make you a Pay2Win Elitist Weanie? Criminy!

     

     LOL yeah...paying to see a movie on a nice convenient pay per view system in the comfort of your own home is not in any way analogous to pay 2 win ;).

    Pay 2 win with movies would be like if you paid for the movie, decided it was boring a quarter of the way through and then paid someone to just tell you the plot of the movie so you wouldn't have to watch it :).

    So, it would bother you that someone paid for highlight reel of the movie instead of sitting through the entire 90 minutes like you did?

     

    So far very little has been presented about "pay to win" and most of the arguments against the F2P model is based ion some kind of odd competition that doesn't exist in the game but in the self-enforced 'race' that you are others are creating. Your example above clearly highlights that.

    It's not even a matter of whether one works for certain things or buys them becaue in most games the stuff you buy and the stuff you gain in-game have little, if any, overlap.  Where there is overlap is in the purchase of a la carte content such as additional campaigns or additional zones.

    If MMOs were predominantly PVP games then I could maybe understand some of these complaints. Maybe. In a PvE, environment, what difference does it make if the guy next to you has a 10% XP boost or Pac Man deelyboppers?

    Even in the PVP situations, the examples given are usually Perfect World, Runes of Magic and other games where 1,000's of dollars are supposedly spent in order to compete but here's the thing.... most of you already said you wouldn't play those games to begin with because they are "shallow" or "Korean grinders" or "kiddie games."

     

    Your reply truly highlights your real issue, Creslin, and it has nothing to do with paying to win anything.

     Haha it doesn't bother me if someone watched the highlight reel of a movie obviously, I think that's taking the analogy a bit too far :).  However, it would bother me if movie distributors started to charge you extra for the highlight reel after you bought the movie and everyone decided that there was nothing wrong with this.  This is closer (though not exactly the same) as how I see P2W.

    Also...I really don't have a big issue with P2W in F2P games.  I mean, they have to make money somehow...but it's okay because I don't have to play them.  If P2W permanently stayed in F2P games only and I always had a superior P2P or B2P alternative, I would be happy.  But it's not staying in F2P games, it's starting to invade ALL games and become part of our culture.  THAT is what annoys me.  Now that Blizzard is doing it, I'm just afraid that soon there is going to be no refuge from P2W.

    And don't say "hey you don't have to buy anything if you don't want!"  Duh.  I know this, it doesn't change the fact that it affects the game world.  Part of what I like about achieving something in game is that if you spend a lot of time and effort to get something, it has some real meaning.  This meaning is diminished if you know you could have just bought it from the in-game store for $5.00.

    It would be like if you trained for weeks to defeat a mighty dragon, go on a month long quest which ends with a climactic battle with your foe, in which you slay the beast and take one of his fangs as your trophy.  And then when you return to town you see that almost every single person is wearing a dragon fang.  You ask one of the townspeople how he was able to kill the dragon and thus acquire the fang, and he saus "You did wut!?!?!  LOLz, I just bought it from the auction house for five bucks!"

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • YamotaYamota Member UncommonPosts: 6,593

    "We" have not lost our ways. The moment big corps got their attention on this genre (sometime after WoW was released) is when all this mess started because big corps are interested in one thing and one thing alone and that is money.

    Pay 2 Win, RMT, whatever does not matter. Aslong as they can line their pockets with our money, they will do whatever it takes. In any case, it's all downhill from here and all we gamers can hope for are indy companies that set their aspirations and dreams first and money second.

This discussion has been closed.