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Pay 2 win becoming legitimate? Have we really lost our way this much?
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I see the point you are trying to make, but there is a difference. What I see as the issue is Blizz indorsing the pay 2 win. You see in EQ, SOE never said that it was OK to buy items for real money.
For me, that is like the police saying it is ok if I buy a stolen TV form someone.
SoE did have the Bazaar and Vox servers in EQ2 which allows you to buy and sell in game stuff for real money. Can buy maxed Avatars with lots of AAs.
"I swear -- by my life and my love for it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
- John Galt
I see the point you are trying to make, but there is a difference. What I see as the issue is Blizz indorsing the pay 2 win. You see in EQ, SOE never said that it was OK to buy items for real money.
For me, that is like the police saying it is ok if I buy a stolen TV form someone.
That's an even worse analogy than legalizing drugs.
1) A Player to Player RMT Auction House does not equate to 'Pay 2 Win'. It's the entire rest of the game that determines that.
2) Blizzard isn't a government or the police. They are a business. If they can't stop RMT, their best alternative is to make it safer and make money off of it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I have friends doing the same thing...as far as making iphone MMO's/Games. Way I see it...if you make the game a refreshing change from the thousands of cookie cutter models there are, and make something innovative...it wouldn't be near as hard to get subs.
I know personally ( And of many others that feel the same that I know, as well as many on this site stating the same) from 12 years of MMO gaming I'd rather pay a monthly subscription fee for an MMO with great lore, meaningful quests that go beyond "KIll/Collect X amount of Y from creature Z 10 feet away" types, true exploration, meaningful crafting, weather and day/night cycles, intelligent AI that doesn't simply stand and wait to be killed, not gear dependant, etc and without all the hand holding before playing any F2P or P2W model out there...no matter how good they may be.
Ok and again where exactly are you getting this number????
This is how it's going to work according to the official FAQ:
You get an unspecified, limited amount of free listings per account, after that you have to pay a listing fee.
When you sell an item Blizzard takes a cut (5-10% if i should wager a guess) any proceeds will go to your Battle.net "wallet" and can be spent not only in Diablo 3, but also on gametime for WoW and even to buy any game in the Blizzard store.
Proceeds can also be transferred to another banking medium like paypal, this has to be set manually and will cost a transfer fee. Oh yeah, one crucial detail is that you will have to specify whether you want your money on the "wallet" or your alternative, once it's in the wallet it's in there for good. (At least that's how it was written last i checked the FAQ.)
Gold can also be sold on the RMAH, so there's still an incentive to list items on the traditional AH besides the (possibly expensive) listing fee, of course the gold may not have any worth if things go like D2, but that's up to Blizzard to regulate.
we are legion, and we are united against the pay to win beast. join us
Ok and again where exactly are you getting this number????
Several Million? There are hardly several million people who are going to play Diablo 3 period, much less boycott it. If 'several million' people were planning on boycotting the game, Blizzard's forums would be over run with people posting their hatred of Blizzard and everything about the AH. Since the forums haven't crashed and most of the posts aren't about the RMT AH, then I would think this number is made up...or at least part of a very elaborate hallucination.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Another good point. Years ago, on this site, I laid out a foundation for a sandbox game and it utilized both decay and limited resources. This was to address this specific issue. You are absolutely right about the items losing value in this model...but I believe that is the point. This game Blizzard is playing is to directly kill RMT, I think. Outside RMT WILL die, at least here...and probably any game they allow this for. Inside RMT will also die a slow death...as value drops, inevitably the items will be worth so little that players will find another way to regain value. in either case, the massive value market for ingame items will be laid to waste. in a way, now only Blizzard will make money off of Blizzard. But until that final death happens...they are giving US a little of that money along the way.
Genius, if you think about it.
We will be one of the first MMO's to allow members to create missions, so I guess not all the emphasis will be on us for that one :P
I do get what you mean, however as a start up company it is hard to justify worsening the odds that your game will take off when there is so much competition already out there, most of which is giving out the product for 'free'. We are really looking to make this game a fantastic.
Actually, just to deepen this a little further.
One other method that is kind of a mixture between MT's and Subs is to have a free version of the game and the subscription version of the game on the same server. While someone could for instance play forever on the free version, they would not receive the same benefits as the people on the subscription.
Lets cover the basics, this could be classed as a play to win game. However it may be more suitable to think of it as a subscription where you get to allocate a certain amount of credits to things you want. The F2P would infact be an unlimited 'trial' of the full game which would be subscription based with benefits.
Or we could just limit trial accounts, same thing, but it does mean that a trial player could never truly succeed.
Helping develop a new space MMO for the iPhone - Traveller-AR
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Video games are supposed to be about having fun! Why the hell are you people playing games that are so unbearable that you want to turn them into a second job in order to keep playing? Why the hell would you not just quit the game, is that really that hard? Or do you guys just like turning something that was fun into something that is torture for yourself. I guess if that is how people want to live now days all forms of entertainment should adapt this concept.
I wonder if I could convince theaters to adopt something like this. We would turn movies something people use to do for entertainment into something really unbearable but then have the allure you might get paid for it. Here is my idea for when you go see a movie; when you leave you have to take a test, for every question you get right you get money, for everyone you get wrong you get shocked with a cattle prod. Let’s see if I lived up to what gaming has turned into. Did I take something that use to be a form of entertainment and make it unbearable so people will want to do it to get paid- added tests and shocking with cattle prod so check! Sweet now I just need to convince the movie industry of this solid gold idea, and then get a job as the person with a cattle prod so I can shock stupid people.
I agree with you Creslin321 adding real money purchases for armor and weapon into games is a bad idea! Unfortunately we are in the minority that thinks that, most people love the idea. I honestly think the era of playing games to have fun is coming to an end, eventually all games will be digital Wall Street. Yeah we get to work while we are entertained, on second thought I really need to figure out a way to use this. I can turn all the sheep into millions of dollars as they waste away playing a game, oh wait Blizzard already beat me to it.
Eh...those on the free version still succeed. They get to play free, and get that instant gratification from it at no cost. However, those that wish to see and do more as long as they have the patience to justify the subscription fee for it (I.E. More quests, more equipment, classes, etc, etc)...it is these for their enjoyment.
Maybe release free to start with some MT's to generate soem income..maybe with intent and some advertising for a "soon to come" enhanced version with all the bells and whistles for a fee. If enough attention is attracted, the latter may work out well.
It's all a gamble when making a game anyways.
I wouldn't be so sure about that, if there's anything the chinese are good at it's doing things cheaper and more efficiently than others, so unless they can manipulate the ingame market to such a degree that they're sitting on everything, which won't be allowed if the regulators Blizzard puts in charge are any good, there will still be a market outside the legal system.
Secondly, i don't think the market for rare items will die just like that, remember that the market for rare items in Diablo 2 is still going and it's been a little over 11 years since that one sprung up.
Yeah I know that just get sick of some of these posters on here with the exagerations and all (including the op). As stated he spends time on this site and knows full well until he created this post there weren't people campaigning for p2w the debates here have largely been about freemium models not p2w. If you stretch truths like he did just to get hits of course you are going to create the circumstance that people who engage in p2w are going to defend it.
And as usual I try to take people at their literal words it is an exercise in futiliy to try and correctly guess what people are trying to impart say what you mean and mean what you say.
Most movies now ARE unbearable! lol
I would certainly watch more bad movies that way. Likewise, I could play more bad games this way. But really you are being a little silly. the RMT isn't making the game bad at all. THe game will play exactly the same. In fact...the same all Diablo games do. PvP might be devalued to those whom value only being better geared over a better player. Otherwise, you won't notice it at all. You won't have a clue where player B got his Sword of Facemelting. And it won't matter where, either. He will have it, and it will serve him in his gameplay with, or without, you. The RMT does nothing to you at all.
Oh man do not ruin my dream, I want people to pay to see a movie so I can shock them with a cattle prod. After all they will buy a game and keep playing it when they no longer enjoy it to make money, so they should be willing to pay to go theaters so I can zap them. Let my dream live!
It's the modus operandi of the real world, why not apply it to everything we do, including computer games. The rich have and always will get everything handed to them on a silver platter, nothing shocking about it applying to their entertainment.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Cloudsol/
In P2win, he with the most gold...wins. The real problem is when it is attached to the....f2p games. I'll use APB as an example, why should I drop $10 for a priemium account when I can get so much more with AimBot at $20? Add on another $5 and a couple of more cheats come into play. So, why buy their monthly weapons and mods when hacks can get them and still enjoy the process along the way?
I'm still trying to understand how you exactly, WIN, in Diablo
From what I understand the majority weren't really into hardcore mode or pvp. Most were in it to build a character, slaughter monsters and collect and trade loot.
Many people feel that way about the endless hours of grind it takes for the few little trinkets recieved for that grinding. And before you say "well they shouldn't be playing" you have to ask yourself who's right is it to make that decision?
Are the devs going to turn these people away for the sake of traditionalists like creslin or you? Most likely not, if they were they wouldn't be adding freemium models,cash shops and the like.
I still get a nice ittle smirk when reading topics like this because these are often the same people who argued me down about how stupid it was to pay premium price for a box to a game and then a sub fee on top of that.
Before SWG I would never have done it after my first trial month and listening to the "mmo vets" justify it I find it kind of ironic that some feel like it's damage control time.
I just don't see how people can say a subscription fee is alright and then turn their noses at other rmt's ANet has shown us that it is possible to release a successful mmo without charging sub fees. As have the slate of games that are chugging along on freemium models many of which are seeing development in game at rates unheard of when they just had sub fees.
My only advice is if you feel that strongly avoid the games you feel are moving towards that unfortunately if anyone decided to go this route he/she would be cutting themselves off from a vast majority of the games available or on the way.
You defeat the final boss. /durrhurr
But seriously, you don't. Applying pay 2 win to Diablo 3 is just a bout of hysteria.
Haha it doesn't bother me if someone watched the highlight reel of a movie obviously, I think that's taking the analogy a bit too far
. However, it would bother me if movie distributors started to charge you extra for the highlight reel after you bought the movie and everyone decided that there was nothing wrong with this. This is closer (though not exactly the same) as how I see P2W.
Also...I really don't have a big issue with P2W in F2P games. I mean, they have to make money somehow...but it's okay because I don't have to play them. If P2W permanently stayed in F2P games only and I always had a superior P2P or B2P alternative, I would be happy. But it's not staying in F2P games, it's starting to invade ALL games and become part of our culture. THAT is what annoys me. Now that Blizzard is doing it, I'm just afraid that soon there is going to be no refuge from P2W.
And don't say "hey you don't have to buy anything if you don't want!" Duh. I know this, it doesn't change the fact that it affects the game world. Part of what I like about achieving something in game is that if you spend a lot of time and effort to get something, it has some real meaning. This meaning is diminished if you know you could have just bought it from the in-game store for $5.00.
It would be like if you trained for weeks to defeat a mighty dragon, go on a month long quest which ends with a climactic battle with your foe, in which you slay the beast and take one of his fangs as your trophy. And then when you return to town you see that almost every single person is wearing a dragon fang. You ask one of the townspeople how he was able to kill the dragon and thus acquire the fang, and he saus "You did wut!?!?! LOLz, I just bought it from the auction house for five bucks!"
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
"We" have not lost our ways. The moment big corps got their attention on this genre (sometime after WoW was released) is when all this mess started because big corps are interested in one thing and one thing alone and that is money.
Pay 2 Win, RMT, whatever does not matter. Aslong as they can line their pockets with our money, they will do whatever it takes. In any case, it's all downhill from here and all we gamers can hope for are indy companies that set their aspirations and dreams first and money second.
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